Author Topic: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?  (Read 7523 times)

Offline Huzo

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2017, 11:41:45 PM »
The only other engine configuration Moto Guzzi should produce is a V-8. A replica/update of their own GP V-8, that is.
Or an 850 cc engined V7 with twin discs and a colour similar to the Le Mans. Between the V7 and V9. Wouldn't that be a V8 ? I'd trade my Mk 2 and get one.

Offline wrtahir

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2017, 11:46:23 PM »
In 1976, Guzzi released the 850 Le Mans also, a cafe racer that was a stylistic masterpiece and still today considered one of the most iconic and sought-after of all Guzzis. My Dad told me he had that bike.

Offline wirespokes

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2017, 01:17:14 AM »
Someone mentioned wanting a 90 degree V4. Check out the Motus - an American made bike - $32K -40K. Don't know how well they're selling, but they're supposedly sporty.

The V8 would be cool, but doubt it would be comparable, weight wise, to the original.

Agreed - Moto Guzzi shouldn't go the way of BMW. But a better dealer network would be welcome (not the glitzy fare BMW demands). I'd like to see an on-line parts fiche like the BMWs have for ordering parts.

Offline Huzo

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2017, 02:39:28 AM »
In 1976, Guzzi released the 850 Le Mans also, a cafe racer that was a stylistic masterpiece and still today considered one of the most iconic and sought-after of all Guzzis. My Dad told me he had that bike.
Welcome to the forum wr, there may be a few members familiar with the bike of which you speak.

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2017, 02:39:28 AM »

Offline Muzz

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2017, 04:07:38 AM »
No.

Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumb: :grin:
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2017, 05:49:07 AM »
Couldn't have said it better myself. :thumb: :grin:
What about a little more succinctly and to the point ?

Offline jGuz

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2017, 09:08:02 AM »
As others have said...BMW's have become too good.  They have complicated electronics, too.  And to me, some of them are too plasticky.  Guzzi goes easy on the plastic and makes fairly simple bikes that aren't obnoxiously expensive.  So no, I would definitely not want Guzzi to be more like BMW in that sense.   

My R NineT is about the only modern BMW I really care for. It's also...just a bike.  It's not supposed to be a sportbike, an adventure bike, a whatever...it's just a bike that's well-made and isn't loaded with plastic.  (Though, yeah, it was a bit overpriced.)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:08:55 AM by jGuz »
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Offline RANDM

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2017, 09:28:05 AM »
Erm, no - and I better leave it there.

Maurie.

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2017, 11:51:39 AM »

BMW?  Nah, I wish Guzzi was Honda.

That would be great.  Hundreds of millions of Guzzis running around the globe.

What they are and what they have been is nothing compared to what they'd be if they were something else...

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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2017, 09:43:30 PM »
Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?

Yes, I do. And they had the opportunity with the CARC lineup, if they'd only known how to market the bikes.  It didn't have to be head to head competition, but running ads and articles that calmly pointed out the similarities and differences between the Italian and German bikes.  Guzzi had the lineup:
Breva 1100 =  R1150R/R1200R
1200S        =  R1200RS
Norge         =  R1200RT
Stelvio        =  R1150/R1200GS

Not saying the bikes competed head to head, feature per feature.  Simply saying that Guzzi had a lineup of bikes that, at their price, competed favorably with anything BMW had at the time the CARC series of Guzzi hit the market.

The Guzzi engineers must be some frustrated  folks.  Imagine designing a bike based on the CARC chassis in such a manner that it could be used across several variations.  With similar models to their German competitor.  Imagine further the frustration these engineers must have felt when they saw the results of their efforts not making a sizable dent in the market.

They had it ....... they missed it. 


« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:44:15 PM by ohiorider »
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Online willowstreetguzziguy

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2017, 11:07:18 PM »
Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?

Yes, I do. And they had the opportunity with the CARC lineup, if they'd only known how to market the bikes.  It didn't have to be head to head competition, but running ads and articles that calmly pointed out the similarities and differences between the Italian and German bikes.  Guzzi had the lineup:
Breva 1100 =  R1150R/R1200R
1200S        =  R1200RS
Norge         =  R1200RT
Stelvio        =  R1150/R1200GS

Not saying the bikes competed head to head, feature per feature.  Simply saying that Guzzi had a lineup of bikes that, at their price, competed favorably with anything BMW had at the time the CARC series of Guzzi hit the market.

The Guzzi engineers must be some frustrated  folks.  Imagine designing a bike based on the CARC chassis in such a manner that it could be used across several variations.  With similar models to their German competitor.  Imagine further the frustration these engineers must have felt when they saw the results of their efforts not making a sizable dent in the market.

They had it ....... they missed it.


TOTALLY AGREE.  All Moto Guzzi needed to do was market their bikes with a different point of view..Fun to ride .Less expensive, and having CHARACTER!    The ad slogan ... "Character Matters"
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Offline waxi

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2017, 02:35:18 AM »
Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?

Yes, I do. And they had the opportunity with the CARC lineup, if they'd only known how to market the bikes.  It didn't have to be head to head competition, but running ads and articles that calmly pointed out the similarities and differences between the Italian and German bikes.  Guzzi had the lineup:
Breva 1100 =  R1150R/R1200R
1200S        =  R1200RS
Norge         =  R1200RT
Stelvio        =  R1150/R1200GS

Not saying the bikes competed head to head, feature per feature.  Simply saying that Guzzi had a lineup of bikes that, at their price, competed favorably with anything BMW had at the time the CARC series of Guzzi hit the market.

The Guzzi engineers must be some frustrated  folks.  Imagine designing a bike based on the CARC chassis in such a manner that it could be used across several variations.  With similar models to their German competitor.  Imagine further the frustration these engineers must have felt when they saw the results of their efforts not making a sizable dent in the market.

They had it ....... they missed it.

Exactly! And not to forget Griso = R Nine T. Not to blame BMW, but they have definitely copied it. Guzzi had years of advantage, but they just didn't pushed it enough.

Not to mention that Guzzi engineers seems to be veeeeeery slow. Like they didn't know years ahead that emission regulation is changing. And all of the sudden they can't comply with it. What were they doing in the mean time???
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2017, 03:49:38 AM »
Erm, no - and I better leave it there.

Maurie.
Leave what Maurie ?

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2017, 05:38:49 AM »
As far as I'm concerned MG has become acruiser division of Piaggio. I'm not sure that's ever gonna change... for obvious reasons.
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Offline RANDM

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2017, 05:30:11 PM »
Leave what Maurie ?

My opinion, I have an 1150R that has had almost the full list
of problems that BMW swear blind don't exhist - it's presently
in the shed with a stuffed FD. As my opinion WOULD include
many swearwords and as this is a civilised campfire I'm trying
to be good.

In simple terms BMW shit me to tears and I'll never touch one again.

Ever.

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2017, 06:01:51 PM »
My opinion, I have an 1150R that has had almost the full list
of problems that BMW swear blind don't exhist - it's presently
in the shed with a stuffed FD. As my opinion WOULD include
many swearwords and as this is a civilised campfire I'm trying
to be good.

In simple terms BMW shit me to tears and I'll never touch one again.

Ever.

There is an aspect of German society that's both positive and negative, and it equally affects their marketing and consumer 'message':  Germans are really into teamwork and team loyalty, that has its obvious benefits but they carry it to the point where they become blind or at least extremely reluctant to accept any reality that might be perceived as 'knocking the team'.  That goes for BMW as a company and actually extends to the whole view of German industry by Germans.  The point of view is then reflected in PR and advertising, and some international consumers equally drink the Kool Aid and pay for membership in a self confident club.  My 'civilized view' is that over the last 15 or 20 years increasing confidence of this type has paralleled a decrease in the reality, and the situation has become nonsense to anybody impartial.  Personal opinions vary but at least one US survey has had BMW as the least reliable motorcycle they studied, and they are certainly nowhere near the best.

Guzzi as a brand represents something a bit more open, independent and positive. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 06:59:41 PM by Tusayan »

Offline boatdetective

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2017, 06:05:03 PM »
I bought my first Guzzi because of the heritage. I bought the rest because of the group. There is nothing, NOTHING, "quirky" and romantic about the ridiculous QC problems sprinkled through the marque. Sure, they've improved considerably and the latest machines like the Cali 14 seem reliable. However, I'm still leery about Luigi. I'm writing this from a little inn at Zion natl park- having ridden though the desert from Las Vegas. I'm on a Triumph Tiger 800 and it's flawless. Would I feel a little nervous trusting a Guzzi in this forbidding terrain? You bet.

I just bought an R1200R. While it's still the honeymoon phase- I really, really like the machine.

I'm with Dusty- MG needs to push initial quality and SUPRESS the whole "quirky" thing.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2017, 01:04:14 PM »
"Quirky" has led me to look the other way at Honda. One "quirky" machine is enough as my life gets busier and busier.
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Offline TimmyTheHog

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2017, 03:27:23 PM »
well, trying not to repeat what other said already...

but these are what I think should and shouldn't be BMW:

Should:

-More support from dealers = More Parts availability = More knowledge of the bike FROM the dealer

Should NOT:

-To become a bigger coporation, this will only drive the cost UP!
-Might end up WAY too complicated if MG will become another BMW. BMW has tried to spread its horizon style of bikes...ended up way too many lines with WAY too many parts...confusion to my part.
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Offline buster1

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2017, 05:18:38 PM »
HELL NO!!!!!!! :bike-037:

elvisboy77

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2017, 06:14:59 AM »
Why ruin a perfectly good motorcycle company by changing it to be like another?

If you want a bike "like BMW" you can always buy a BMW......

Offline Phang

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2017, 08:17:44 AM »
what if BMW Motorrad decided to lift the boxer cylinders 45 degrees up and offers an option of  V  twins for their boxer lineups?

will that steal some buyers from Guzzi?
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2017, 08:48:47 AM »
what if BMW Motorrad decided to lift the boxer cylinders 45 degrees up and offers an option of  V  twins for their boxer lineups?

will that steal some buyers from Guzzi?


The bikes would cost another $7-10K more than a Guzzi, and given the fact that most Guzzi buyers wait until the bikes are heavily discounted or buy used, I see no reason why BMW would steal any Guzzi buyers.
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Offline Sheepdog

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2017, 11:47:04 AM »
The writing is on the wall...Guzzi will be forced to go to things like liquid cooling and more sophisticated computer controls by environmental considerations. Once that sort of change occurs, there will be a tempting opportunity to use that larger processing capability to incorporate other technological features. We have seen it in the new California 1400s already: cruise control, ABS, TCS, throttle modes, etc. This sort of change is happening with the venerable "Motor Company," too. The new HD touring platforms have incorporated liquid cooling in the Milwaukee-8 engine, as well as lots of electronics. Japan, incorporated and most Euro manufacturers are headed in the same direction (albeit less reluctantly).

So what does this mean? It means that BMW got a head start on the inevitable. More modern technology will have to be incorporated into Guzzis or they will not pass EPA/EURO4 requirements. So what difference remains? Dealer network and support is the biggie to my eyes. This is where their association with Piaggio can make a difference, but hasn't so far. Good motorcycles are not enough, customer access to parts and service is critical to success. BMW, Harley Davidson, Honda, Triumph, etc. have all broken this code, but Guzzi is floundering and is usually a sideshow at the few dealers that carry them. Apart from Moto International in Seattle, every Guzzi dealer I've visited only had a couple of bikes and a few signs in some dark corner. Piaggio needs to step up...
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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2017, 05:44:53 PM »
The writing is on the wall...Guzzi will be forced to go to things like liquid cooling and more sophisticated computer controls by environmental considerations. Once that sort of change occurs, there will be a tempting opportunity to use that larger processing capability to incorporate other technological features. We have seen it in the new California 1400s already: cruise control, ABS, TCS, throttle modes, etc. This sort of change is happening with the venerable "Motor Company," too. The new HD touring platforms have incorporated liquid cooling in the Milwaukee-8 engine, as well as lots of electronics. Japan, incorporated and most Euro manufacturers are headed in the same direction (albeit less reluctantly).

So what does this mean? It means that BMW got a head start on the inevitable. More modern technology will have to be incorporated into Guzzis or they will not pass EPA/EURO4 requirements. So what difference remains? Dealer network and support is the biggie to my eyes. This is where their association with Piaggio can make a difference, but hasn't so far. Good motorcycles are not enough, customer access to parts and service is critical to success. BMW, Harley Davidson, Honda, Triumph, etc. have all broken this code, but Guzzi is floundering and is usually a sideshow at the few dealers that carry them. Apart from Moto International in Seattle, every Guzzi dealer I've visited only had a couple of bikes and a few signs in some
dark corner. Piaggio needs to step up...
    Or step out!
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
New:  2021 Kawasaki W800

Offline Huzo

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2017, 06:07:26 PM »
My opinion, I have an 1150R that has had almost the full list
of problems that BMW swear blind don't exhist - it's presently
in the shed with a stuffed FD. As my opinion WOULD include
many swearwords and as this is a civilised campfire I'm trying
to be good.

In simple terms BMW shit me to tears and I'll never touch one again.

Ever.
Yeah, I reckon it's extra painful because they (BMW) hang their hat on the reliability thing as much as they do. I admit that when I look down at the tank and see the BMW symbol, I feel more convinced that everything will be ok, but conversely,  when I was stranded on the side of the motorway recently in Sweden on a R 1200 GS I thought " what the bloody hell did I bring this bastard for" if it had been the Norge, I would have thought, " I sorta expected something like this would happen". Then subsequently did 15,000 k on the Guzzi and everything went perfectly. I do readily admit though, that if you have a drama on a BMW, once you get to a beautifully appointed workshop, which seem to be identical around the world, you just know that your wallet will fix anything and there won't be some lame arsed, mealy mouthed excuse as to why they couldn't find the exact issue. I arrived at a BMW joint with my bike in a trailer and found to my dismay that it was a car dealership, but the guy just said, "no problem, we will take it to Moto workshop for you free! Do you wish for a coffee while you be waiting ? BMW can be more impersonal, but that doesn't matter if you need your bike fixed in Helsingborg.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 06:12:53 PM by Huzo »

Offline Huzo

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2017, 06:10:17 PM »
what if BMW Motorrad decided to lift the boxer cylinders 45 degrees up and offers an option of  V  twins for their boxer lineups?

will that steal some buyers from Guzzi?
Shit, that is a scary thought, but I reckon it would take some market share. Hmmmmmm.

Offline Mike Crenshaw

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2017, 02:27:45 AM »
I like Guzzis for what they are.  Solid machines when set up and maintained properly that just run and run.  Currently don't have a Guzzi in the stable and I'm over stocked on BMW, with two R90/6, wife's R1100R, a R1100S, and a R1200RT.  Personally I believe that BMW made their reputation for quality with the airhead Type 247 engine design.  There are still a lot of them on the road and can run forever with some proper maintenance.  The oilheads are a bit different but not so much different in terms of reliability (final drives aside).  To me the K's, F's, G's, and S's just aren't real BMW's.  If it isn't a boxer with shaft drive then I don't want it.  Why buy a K bike or a chain drive when you can get the same ride and engine type for $10k less.

So no, I can't see why Guzzi would ever want to emulate the BMW's.  What I would like to see is an effort to expand and support the dealer network.
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Tennmoto

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Re: Do you ever wish Moto Guzzi would become like BMW?
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2017, 05:05:26 AM »
There is an aspect of German society that's both positive and negative, and it equally affects their marketing and consumer 'message':  Germans are really into teamwork and team loyalty, that has its obvious benefits but they carry it to the point where they become blind or at least extremely reluctant to accept any reality that might be perceived as 'knocking the team'.  That goes for BMW as a company and actually extends to the whole view of German industry by Germans.  The point of view is then reflected in PR and advertising, and some international consumers equally drink the Kool Aid and pay for membership in a self confident club.  My 'civilized view' is that over the last 15 or 20 years increasing confidence of this type has paralleled a decrease in the reality, and the situation has become nonsense to anybody impartial.  Personal opinions vary but at least one US survey has had BMW as the least reliable motorcycle they studied, and they are certainly nowhere near the best.

I shared this opinion about German companies, not all of them however. I had Airheads years ago
And never got a newer one because of bad Fueling and their denial. The lastest VW coverup is a sign
Of arrogance too. Some Italian companies share this arrogance too and won't admit or improve
Defective components. This results in never finishing a product, and since the day of the forum and internet all is shared for the public to see. So when warranties aren't covering these problems or dealers
Don't want to deal with them the nameplate suffers. Resale values for Ducatis are pretty low because
Of the perception of reliability and maintenance costs. One thing that really bothers me is the fact that even though Moto Guzzi came out with some durable and wonderful machines the public never caught on. Same for Victory, what a tradegy , all that great product development story with the engine and
Components only to never wow larger numbers of buyers even though the owners are fiercely loyal.
Arrrrg!

Guzzi as a brand represents something a bit more open, independent and positive.

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