2012 Griso---did I get stuck with a loser?

[ediehl]

Bought it just a couple months ago, but I didn't research it properly. The PO told me that the shop he'd bought it from (Matthews Fun Machines in Charlotte, NC) told him they'd performed the rollerization in their shop. I later called that shop and asked about it, and they checked the VIN and said they had not, and that it was not marked as being required for that particular bike. Damn! The VIN is ZGULSU025CM111668, and the number on the engine is 813692. My understanding from reading these forums is that mine is one of the failure prone flat-tappet bikes, right?.

It's just about to turn 10K miles, and the shop said they serviced it around 5700 miles. The service desk pooh-poohed my expressions of concern; the fellow seemed nice enough, but I have no idea if he knows what he's talking about. He did say that some people have brought their bikes in to have the service provided as a preventative measure, and that if the tear-down shows evidence of wear. MG will pay for parts (but not the labor, and if there's no sign of wear I pay for parts also).

There's a pretty good bit of noise from the valves, but I guess that's to be expected from an MG even if all is well? I've had two Guzzis previously (1200 Sport and Norge), but they were both the older 2-valvers. I guess I need to just load 'er up on the trailer and take 'er in for the rollerization--you think? Does anyone know if Matthews is a decent shop? I think it's now the closest to me (western SC)

[Kiwi Dave]

If they said it was rollerized, and it turns out it wasn't, then surely you are entitled for a full refund or rollerization on their dime.

Get a bit stroppy!

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Isn't there a fast and easy way to check? Like pulling the cam box?

[oldbike54]

 Hate to say this , but if the PO said the work was done , and the shop says it wasn't , someone is fibbing . My understanding from what Pete Roper and Guzzi Steve have stated is that doing that doing the roller kits is easy enough .

 Dusty

[guzzisteve]

Pull the valve covers and look, roll the motor to before & after TDC.  You will or not see the wishbone that holds the roller.

[JeffOlson]

There's a pretty good bit of noise from the valves, but I guess that's to be expected from an MG even if all is well?... Does anyone know if Matthews is a decent shop?

I think so, on both counts.

[beetle]

Argh! There's no way to know without looking. The VIN method is not a sure thing. Do what Steve says and pop a valve cover. You'll know in a heartbeat if you've still got flatties. If so, sanction the seller.

At 10K there will be signs of damage. Even one speck of DLC missing is cause for replacement. If your dealer gives you a hard time about it, go elsewhere. Do not suffer fools. Sanction with extreme prejudice if necessary.

[Idontwantapickle]

If they said it was rollerized, and it turns out it wasn't, then surely you are entitled for a full refund or rollerization on their dime.

Get a bit stroppy!

Unfortunately there isn't much you can do in a private sale if the seller is "less than truthful" about the vehicle.
I would trust Matthews, they've been at the Guzzi thing a while now and they would have no reason not to tell if the service was done.

[nobleswood]

Don't beat yourself up over it. Pull the valve covers, the gaskets are re-usable, takes about 1/2 hour. Then you'll know.

Rollerisation is costly but do-able. This is the place to ask for tutorials & pics.

[Lannis]

At 10K there will be signs of damage. Even one speck of DLC missing is cause for replacement.

Maybe not.   At 39,000 miles when I had mine done, the DLC was a strange mottled color, enough to indicate heat and problems and convince Guzzi to cough up a "C" kit, but no DLC was missing.   

Lannis

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

I do most of my own service, so I have not used the Shop...  But I have heard only good reports on Matthews Fun Machines.. they have been a guzzi dealer for about 4-5 years and seem committed to the brand. They deff sell a fair number of Guzzi down there

[beetle]

Maybe not.   At 39,000 miles when I had mine done, the DLC was a strange mottled color, enough to indicate heat and problems and convince Guzzi to cough up a "C" kit, but no DLC was missing.   

Lannis

Strange mottle colour is damage. No if's or buts.

End.

[pyoungbl]

As others have noted, pull the valve covers and take a look.  That's dead simple.  If you do not have rollers you need to have the shop pull the lifters to inspect for DLC damage.  At 10K miles you might not have enough wear to get replacement under warranty...it's a crap shoot.  I had my local Guzzi shop replace my flatties and Guzzi refused to pay for the parts.  There was obvious wear to the DLC.  This dealer was in the process of dropping Guzzi so I was left holding the bag...$1400 worth.  Let's hope you have rollers.  If not, decide if the bike is a keeper.

[Lannis]

Strange mottle colour is damage. No if's or buts.

End.

Well, not quite the end, since I'm still here and posting.

The flat tappet surfaces were still smooth.   It was not pitted in any way, nor under a magnifying glass was there any missing material.   My valve lash had not changed at all since the first adjustment at break-in time.

That may be classified as "Damage", but I believe the statement that there was no missing material is correct.   In this context, that also means that there were no hardened fragments of DLC circulating through my oiling system.

As a matter of fact, Guzzi was trying to deny the claim for the kit when they were first sent the data and the photographs.   Fay heard our dealer arguing for the claim with Guzzi like a Philadelphia lawyer, and got disgusted at Guzzi and went and bought us a Triumph Trophy 1215, since I had already taken the position that if Guzzi denied the claim for the "C" kit based on "no missing material" as they first said, I was going to part the bike out and forget it and Guzzi.

However, "Scoot Richmond" saved the day, the Stelvio has gone 10,000 miles on the rollers doing yeoman service now, and we have one more transcontinental two-up touring bike in the garage!

Lannis

[beetle]

 That's nice.

[pete roper]

Well, not quite the end, since I'm still here and posting.

The flat tappet surfaces were still smooth.   It was not pitted in any way, nor under a magnifying glass was there any missing material.   My valve lash had not changed at all since the first adjustment at break-in time.

That may be classified as "Damage", but I believe the statement that there was no missing material is correct.   In this context, that also means that there were no hardened fragments of DLC circulating through my oiling system.

As a matter of fact, Guzzi was trying to deny the claim for the kit when they were first sent the data and the photographs.   Fay heard our dealer arguing for the claim with Guzzi like a Philadelphia lawyer, and got disgusted at Guzzi and went and bought us a Triumph Trophy 1215, since I had already taken the position that if Guzzi denied the claim for the "C" kit based on "no missing material" as they first said, I was going to part the bike out and forget it and Guzzi.

However, "Scoot Richmond" saved the day, the Stelvio has gone 10,000 miles on the rollers doing yeoman service now, and we have one more transcontinental two-up touring bike in the garage!

Lannis

Lannis, the mottling is caused by the DLC crazing. I believe the reason why it crazes is because at certain engine speeds the beehive springs will surge, the tappet will leave the opening flank of the cam and then hammer down on the nose circle. Why else would the first cam damage appear on the nose circles? The point of greatest pressure and therefore where you would expect the first damage to manifest itself would be at the base of the opening flank where the cam is being asked to suddenly start accelerating the combined mass of the valvetrain, very quickly, but the opening ramps and flanks are the last bits to wear.

The difference in wear on different tappets can be put down to tolerance differences in the springs themselves, some may suffer worse than others from surging.

If you look at pictures taken with an electron microscope the pattern of delamination is clearly visible as it advances. The surface of the tappet ends up looking like a mosaic before the DLC actually comes off in chunks. The fact that there may not of been any steel substrate exposed does NOT mean the tappet is serviceable.

Pete

[tris]

Lannis, the mottling is caused by the DLC crazing. I believe the reason why it crazes is because at certain engine speeds the beehive springs will surge, the tappet will leave the opening flank of the cam and then hammer down on the nose circle. Why else would the first cam damage appear on the nose circles? The point of greatest pressure and therefore where you would expect the first damage to manifest itself would be at the base of the opening flank where the cam is being asked to suddenly start accelerating the combined mass of the valvetrain, very quickly, but the opening ramps and flanks are the last bits to wear.

The difference in wear on different tappets can be put down to tolerance differences in the springs themselves, some may suffer worse than others from surging.

If you look at pictures taken with an electron microscope the pattern of delamination is clearly visible as it advances. The surface of the tappet ends up looking like a mosaic before the DLC actually comes off in chunks. The fact that there may not of been any steel substrate exposed does NOT mean the tappet is serviceable.

Pete

The problem there is Pete that the average (to use one of your phrases) Shaved Ape mechanic, unless he sees a chunk has fallen off, will likely as not disregard it as just staining or a funny colour

I'm glad I followed your advise 18 months ago and went for the 4V engine in my B11 - the bike has other "challenges", but this one thing I don't need to worry about!!

[pete roper]

As others have noted, pull the valve covers and take a look.  That's dead simple.  If you do not have rollers you need to have the shop pull the lifters to inspect for DLC damage.  At 10K miles you might not have enough wear to get replacement under warranty...it's a crap shoot.  I had my local Guzzi shop replace my flatties and Guzzi refused to pay for the parts.  There was obvious wear to the DLC.  This dealer was in the process of dropping Guzzi so I was left holding the bag...$1400 worth.  Let's hope you have rollers.  If not, decide if the bike is a keeper.

Peter, did you do the work yourself? It's possible to 'C' kit a bike a bit cheaper than that if you know what to buy and where.

My personal feeling is that there should of been a recall but there wasn't and there never will be. Best is to try and get the bits but if you can't? Well, sell the bike, (With full disclosure please!) or roll yer shoulders in and just fix it. It's worth it. The 1200-8V is a fantastic powerplant in a range of fantastic bikes.

Pete

[Rough Edge racing]

Lannis, the mottling is caused by the DLC crazing. I believe the reason why it crazes is because at certain engine speeds the beehive springs will surge, the tappet will leave the opening flank of the cam and then hammer down on the nose circle. Why else would the first cam damage appear on the nose circles? The point of greatest pressure and therefore where you would expect the first damage to manifest itself would be at the base of the opening flank where the cam is being asked to suddenly start accelerating the combined mass of the valvetrain, very quickly, but the opening ramps and flanks are the last bits to wear.

 Interesting, one of the main advantages of Beehive springs, according to high performance cam manufacturers, is the lack of harmonics leading to spring surge....This has been supported by the majority of tuners and has been observed on a Spintron testing machine...Of course there are exceptions and Guzzi may be one of them...

[Zoom Zoom]

To the OP, this issue has been discussed ad nauseam. Guzzi may not admit it, but it is well known that there is no question that the fix needs to be implemented on every flat tappet motor. The dealer ought to be able to get this taken care of as far as parts are concerned. Labor would be on you. Most dealers can make it happen.

People more knowledgeable would be able to say for sure, but I don't ***think*** your G would need a C kit, which is the most labor intensive of the kits that need installed.

Like you have been told, looking takes only a few minutes. Take a look and post a pic or two here if you are unsure. I suppose there is a slight chance they may have gotten changed and it didn't get entered into the system, but I doubt it.


As was mentioned, if you bought this off a private seller, shame on them!!!!! Since money has already changed hands, I'm not sure what recourse you might have. If that person is a decent individual, you may ask for some compensation for the cost, or part of, for the labor. Maybe it was an honest mistake on the part of the seller, IDK.

John Henry   

[pete roper]

A flat tappet 2012 model will require an 'A' kit. Doddle to do.

[Nick]

ediehl, FYI

The VIN is ZGULSU025CM111668, and the number on the engine is 813692. My understanding from reading these forums is that mine is one of the failure prone flat-tappet bikes, right?.

Quote from: Curtis Harper on February 24, 2013, 11:20:59 AM

According to Piaggio, Roller tappets are in the following engines.

Stelvio AC : After AC12596 03/12/2012
Griso A8 :    After 13524     04/12/2012 
Norge AA :  After 12214     04/18/2012

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=59408.60

[Dilliw]

I live in Rock Hill (most of the time) and Matthews Fun Machines did the rollerization on my bike last year.  They are completely aware of the issue and will resolve it IF you need to do so.  A quick pull of the valve cover and a picture posted here will tell you if you have rollers or flats.

If it's a roller and they serviced it then I'm betting the valves are set at .006 and .008.  You might want to tighten them to the .004 and .006 spec. while you have the covers off.

[molly]

I keep a beady eye on the UK  Guzzi  CARC market, always on the look out for a bargain. I would say only one in ten in  the 'at risk' bracket get flagged up has having had the roller conversion done. Certainly dealers never mention the issue so it is no wonder the unsuspecting get caught out.

[Lannis]

Lannis, the mottling is caused by the DLC crazing. I believe the reason why it crazes is because at certain engine speeds the beehive springs will surge, the tappet will leave the opening flank of the cam and then hammer down on the nose circle. Why else would the first cam damage appear on the nose circles? The point of greatest pressure and therefore where you would expect the first damage to manifest itself would be at the base of the opening flank where the cam is being asked to suddenly start accelerating the combined mass of the valvetrain, very quickly, but the opening ramps and flanks are the last bits to wear.

The difference in wear on different tappets can be put down to tolerance differences in the springs themselves, some may suffer worse than others from surging.

If you look at pictures taken with an electron microscope the pattern of delamination is clearly visible as it advances. The surface of the tappet ends up looking like a mosaic before the DLC actually comes off in chunks.

That's a good analysis of what was going on, I think.   At least it squares up with everything I've heard about it.

The fact that there may not of been any steel substrate exposed does NOT mean the tappet is serviceable.

Pete

And we knew that, of course.   It's why we were fighting Guzzi so hard to get them replaced even though they hadn't exploded yet.    With 39,000 miles on the bike, I knew I'd dodged a bullet, and either Guzzi was going to fix it or I was getting out from under the bike ....

Lannis

[rudolf35]

I have a 2010 which was a flattie! I liked the bike and with the aid of a local Guzzi shop got a "C" kit as warranty item. Did my own work; about 1.5 hours per side. So, if yours is a flattie see if you can get a kit and do it yourself. Even if you do not get a free kit the bike is worth it as long as you do the work. FYI, mine was at 10,500 miles and it had the discoloration and hazing mentioned above.

[Lannis]

I have a 2010 which was a flattie! I liked the bike and with the aid of a local Guzzi shop got a "C" kit as warranty item. Did my own work; about 1.5 hours per side. So, if yours is a flattie see if you can get a kit and do it yourself. Even if you do not get a free kit the bike is worth it as long as you do the work. FYI, mine was at 10,500 miles and it had the discoloration and hazing mentioned above.

Good on yer for having a reasonable attitude.   I DIDN'T have a reasonable attitude, which often happens, and Guzzi's attitude toward their very clear and universal SNAFU pissed me off bad enough that I didn't care if it was "worth it", if they were going to do me that way, I was dumping the bike in bits to make other Stelvio owners happy with cheap spares .... !

Worked out OK though.

Lannis

[ediehl]

Well, I pulled the valve cover and took pics, even though I'm not entirely sure what flat versus roller looks like, from this angle. The pics look like they could be rollers, but again, I've not found any detailed diagrams of the comparison to make that judgement. Fingers crossed; can it be discerned from this pic whether it's a flattie or a roller?


russian image host

[pete roper]

They're rollers, you're golden.

Now all you need to do is grease the swingarm bearings and shock linkage and tune it properly and it's a turnkey proposition, or should be.

Pete

[Dilliw]

Well, I pulled the valve cover and took pics, even though I'm not entirely sure what flat versus roller looks like, from this angle. The pics look like they could be rollers, but again, I've not found any detailed diagrams of the comparison to make that judgement. Fingers crossed; can it be discerned from this pic whether it's a flattie or a roller?


russian image host

You are rolling!

Again the valve spec for rollers is .004 and .006.  When I got mine back from Matthews they had used the .006/.008  If you decide to run Beetle's Map you will need them at .004/.006