will a 1400 motor bolt to the old trannys

[troyhamilton]

since weve put the ev in everything now im wondering if a 1400 will bolt to the old trannys. are there any simularitys in the motors.

[guzzisteve]

Yes, With the right flywheel & clutch.  There is a V14 at PinWalls for $2300

[rodekyll]

I think I have the flywheel and clutch for that.

[oldbike54]

 Not sure the old bevel box and drive train will handle a 1400 , at least for very long 

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Use the 1400 in anger and it will burn out a twin plate clutch in no time. Maybe even before it bursts the five speed gearbox like a piece of rotten fruit!

[troyhamilton]

lol thats a lotta tourqe!

[normzone]

Misread at first sight -

" Win a 1400 Motor Bolt to the Old Trannys ! "

Well, one bolt would be a start - I could collect the full set eventually.

[Guzzistajohn]

Troy, Images of Gene Wilder in Young Frankenstein----sorry FRONK-en-STEEN came to mind when I opened your post and began to read. You standing over a T3 with a 1400 wearing goggles screaming IT'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!

[troyhamilton]

well I am Dr. Frankie! lol

[Gliderjohn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD6A2WTW0wM
No thread drift of course.
GliderJohn

[pauldaytona]

For the clutch, a two plate from a v11 sport and sintered plates of the mgs01 will do. Same config als the mgs01. The gears should be super healthy as a start. 

[pete roper]

For the clutch, a two plate from a v11 sport and sintered plates of the mgs01 will do. Same config als the mgs01. The gears should be super healthy as a start.

And they will last how long Paul? Every single sintered bronze clutch I've ever seen used, even in much lower power/torque drivelines has has a working life of, at most, a few thousand Km!

Remember we are talking a supposed *Road* bike and more importantly a Guzzi which means the average owner flies into an apoplectic rage over the fact the tyre's on their forty year old Eldorado have had the temerity to wear out! Imagine the aneurism inducing rage caused by having to drop the motive unit twice a year, (Assuming 7-8,000 Km a year!) to replace the clutch.

Alternatively they could just ride it like a granny and get a bit more out of it but what's the point of that?

There are reasons why the clutch and driveline were changed by the factory, initially with the Spineframes and then with the CARC series. The old five speed was a good, but agricultural, gearbox but by the 1990's it was W-A-Y past its use by date! It was too long, too heavy and shifted with all the panache of a Fordson tractor from the 1940's! The *Old* six speed was a wonderful thing, if it was assembled and finished well. Otherwise it could be a dog! It was also expensive with its four shafts and cam-plate selector system. The *New* six speed is a three shaft box and in terms of length a bit of a compromise but I think it's lighter than the *Old* one and is consistently reliable and a great shifter.

As far as the clutch is concerned the designers knew they were pushing the friendship when they started asking it to take the 80+HP of the Todero's Hi-Cam. It was at that point they bumped the number of springs up by two and that went through, along with a litany of busted plate centres that may or may not be related, until the demise of the 2V engine.

The 8V was always going to need a beefier clutch 110-115 HP at the crank will brutalise any twin plate unless you increase the clamping force and if you did that you'd need a left hand forearm that would make you look like a bloody Fiddler crab! While the early 8V single platers may need a bit of a Herculean pull they at least lasted! The new Cali 14 design is even moderately light!

Another thing about the six speed gearboxes are they are straight cut! That means no end thrust on the cases! The five speeds, (Almost all of them.) are helically cut and impose significant end thrust on the shafts and therefore the cases. A five speed was designed for 50HP basically and similar, in contemporary standards, weedy torque. The end case is held on by ten or so 6mm bolts. Dump the clutch with an angry 12 or 1400 'On Song' and I reckon the end thrust will blow the end case clean off the back of the main casting!

Look, I love the old ones too but I'm not willing to play 'Let's Pretend'! The five speed and Tonti/Loop bevelboxes simply aren't strong enough for the modern motors! The only reason you'll see the modern motors being shoehorned into Tontis with the old running gear in them is because of legislation outlawing modification of machines after a certain year in some markets or because the people who are doing it are numpties, cretins and shitgibbons!

Pete

[tris]

Another thing about the six speed gearboxes are they are straight cut! That means no end thrust on the cases! The five speeds, (Almost all of them.) are helically cut and impose significant end thrust on the shafts and therefore the cases. A five speed was designed for 50HP basically and similar, in contemporary standards, weedy torque. The end case is held on by ten or so 6mm bolts. Dump the clutch with an angry 12 or 1400 'On Song' and I reckon the end thrust will blow the end case clean off the back of the main casting!

My stepson used to run a lightly modified 2 litre turbo 4 wheel drive Nissan GTiR (Pulsar in some parts of the world) and I went with him to Bruntingthorpe airstrip for a "how fast is your car" day with a bunch of other GTiRs from the club

One of the highly modded cars (400BHP IIRC)  pulled up to the line for a quick 0-60, wound the turbo up and dropped the clutch

There was a clang and a tinkle as the skew cut gears went sideways and punched the end out of his £4000 gearbox. He was all set to go again if every one hadn't jumped in front pointing at the bits of the box on the floor

Strangely enough the other lad with the same box bottled it for the rest of the session

I have fond memores of that day   

[troyhamilton]

I knew Pete would have the right info. im not going to do it lol. Im just wanting a daily rider bike.

[Chuck in Indiana]

*Great* explanation, Pete.. 

[sidecarnutz]

"Pete the science guy"  Really well written!

[dguzzi]

So then the 1400 gearbox might fit and be stronger bolted to an older engine?  With the better clutch as well...

[pete roper]

(Jesus wept!) No, the later gearboxes won't fit into the earlier frames and the poxy ratios would be all horribly wrong.

[toolittletime]

shitgibbons?????   

Tim

[oldbike54]

 The carnage visited upon a stock 1940 Ford rearend by a warmed up 364 CI Nailhead Buick engine is spectacular to behold 

 Dusty

[dguzzi]

Its hard to be a Frahnkensteen these days!

[twhitaker]

"What hump?"

[richthib]

Wouldn't a Loop 4 speed trans. work better?   

[Don G]

Convert trans would likely work best, just a matter of finding a better way to pump the ATF in the circuit.  DonG

[oldbike54]

Convert trans would likely work best, just a matter of finding a better way to pump the ATF in the circuit.  DonG

 Dunno , Rodekyll has installed a 1200 Sport motor in his trike with the 'Vert trans , he might have it sorted by now .

 Dusty

[rodekyll]

The 1200 might be pushing the limits of the torque converter.  I'll know better in a few thousand miles.

[John A]

I would dearly love to have Rodekyll's clutch ass'y but cant raise the cash now as I am financially embarrassed. as always : if you're not breaking parts, you're not making enough power.  

[bad Chad]

There are plenty of "old Trannies" running around, why not ask one?

Thanks brother.

[Huzo]

There are plenty of "old Trannys" running around, why not ask one?

Oh dear...(chuckle). And BTW, "trannies" would be more correcter grammatically
Was going to say it Chad, but I wouldn't have gotten away with it 

[rtbickel]

So, Pete, as eccentric as you are, you aren't going to try some surgery on a Tonti frame to fit the whole engine/trans/swingarm assembly into it?  And paint it green?