Indian and Victory

[derek533]

Got to thinking about this after I found out (late to the game I guess) that Indian and Victory are both owned by Polaris. 

Seems to me that since both of them only make cruisers, that would mean one would cannibalize the other.  If they were different such as the Buell/Harley relationship, then I understand but for both of them to make the same type of bike (Indian Scout/Victory Octane ex.) for instance, would mean one would buy one over the other and vice versa.  I get the thinking of them that in the end, Polaris is the real winner but we've seen before what also can happen (Olds/Pontiac). 

Just seems like it may not work as they hope it does. 

[Daniel Kalal]

...that would mean one would cannibalize the other...

Indian is investing heavily in racing with the brand, something Victory will never do.  It looks like Polaris knows to keep the two brands distinctive.

[jackthebiker]

I have had 4 Victorys and 2 Indians. Currently riding a 2015 Indian Chieftain along with my Guzzi. The two brands have nothing in common. The 111 Indian engine is totally different than the Victory engine, very little if any parts shared. The smaller bikes do share some things. Victory will be the performance brand, Indian the beautiful nostalgic brand.

[fotoguzzi]

What I don't get, why didn't they scoop up EBR? They could have performance/race platform to develop and a GS style bike too.

[Aaron D.]

Our Indian dealer has at least 3 EBRs , brand new, available for sale. In all the time he's had them, no one has wanted them. I'd say that's why Polaris didn't care. Besides they own the Swissauto engine design outfit, that seems to be serving them well.

[Kev m]

I have had 4 Victorys and 2 Indians. Currently riding a 2015 Indian Chieftain along with my Guzzi. The two brands have nothing in common. The 111 Indian engine is totally different than the Victory engine, very little if any parts shared. The smaller bikes do share some things. Victory will be the performance brand, Indian the beautiful nostalgic brand.

There may be little shared but under the covers I believe the engines share a number of design elements/basic architecture.

Personally I've ridden and like both brands, but I can't get past Victory's looks.

[ITSec]

As someone who worked in sales at the #1 Indian dealership in their first year of the modern era (and a top 5 Victory dealer for a long, long time), I can offer some observations and some retelling of what we were told.

Mechanically, the two brands share almost nothing - the air-adjustable shock is the same on some models, but the engines are unique to each brand. The big bikes have some common characteristics (design methods, evidence that some engineers worked on both, things like swingarm castings). The new small models (Scout and such) are where some cross-over is occurring, but they are still a ways from badge engineering.

There was an interview with the Polaris VP/Indian President around launch time where he claimed that the Indian design team was composed of a few of the old Indian team, a few of the engineers from Victory, and a bunch of engineers from outside either company. I can believe that. They are very conscious of the need to keep the brands distinct.

[Cool Runnings]

Bring it on America, we need more H.O.G.s 

[LowRyter]

I think the Scout is the same as the little Victory. 

The big bikes are mechanically different (OHC vs pushrod) but they ride very much the same:  Similar power delivery, (low) rev range, handling and ergos.  They are styled differently.

[ITSec]

I think the Scout is the same as the little Victory. 

The big bikes are mechanically different (OHC vs pushrod) but they ride very much the same:  Similar power delivery, (low) rev range, handling and ergos.  They are styled differently.

I found they ride rather differently, particularly in the handling. I am way more fond of the 111 than the Victory 106. Ergos depend on the models being compared, since there is more difference between models from Victory (the Vision is very different from the other models). Ride each of them for 500 miles, and you realize why the Indian costs more.

[rocker59]

Victory and Indian occupy two different niches of the cruiser market.  Other than the Scout/Octane, there isn't much chance of crossover.

Indian is the "heritage" / "retro" brand.

Victory is the edgy contemporary brand.

For me, they're about as similar as Aprilia and Guzzi, which means not very.  I'm a Guzzi guy who cares not one bit about Aprilia.  I'm an Indian guy who cares not one bit about Victory.

[LowRyter]

I found they ride rather differently, particularly in the handling. I am way more fond of the 111 than the Victory 106. Ergos depend on the models being compared, since there is more difference between models from Victory (the Vision is very different from the other models). Ride each of them for 500 miles, and you realize why the Indian costs more.

as someone that has ridden on all the models on a regular basis, you might feel differences that the casual rider wouldn't.  IMO, both the big Vic and Indian are heavy, torquey, low reving, extreme cruiser riding positions.  In fact, I would say the standard Harley Road King has a lighter and more upright/standard riding position than all the Indians and the touring Vics I've ridden.

The exception is the old 92 Sport Cruiser that actually rode like a standard motorcycle.

[lucky phil]

Got to thinking about this after I found out (late to the game I guess) that Indian and Victory are both owned by Polaris. 

Seems to me that since both of them only make cruisers, that would mean one would cannibalize the other.  If they were different such as the Buell/Harley relationship, then I understand but for both of them to make the same type of bike (Indian Scout/Victory Octane ex.) for instance, would mean one would buy one over the other and vice versa.  I get the thinking of them that in the end, Polaris is the real winner but we've seen before what also can happen (Olds/Pontiac). 

Just seems like it may not work as they hope it does.

Two points....Where did Buell end up? and second whats the Polaris balance sheet say?

Ciao

[MariusD]

as someone that has ridden on all the models on a regular basis, you might feel differences that the casual rider wouldn't.  IMO, both the big Vic and Indian are heavy, torquey, low reving, extreme cruiser riding positions.  In fact, I would say the standard Harley Road King has a lighter and more upright/standard riding position than all the Indians and the touring Vics I've ridden.

The exception is the old 92 Sport Cruiser that actually rode like a standard motorcycle.

I couldn't disagree more.

Indian vs Victory is a night and day difference in terms of power delivery and ergonomics.  Indians have a much more compact but heavy feel, where on the vics you get to stretch out more but handling is very light. Also the power on the indians comes on instantly and there's really no point to spinning them passed 4k rpms as they stop making power. Not so on the vics. The 106 actually has pretty mediocre low end power but that engine rewards u greatly between 3-5k rpm. Very different character between those engines. Those bikes are nothing alike, with the exception of both brands being classified as cruisers.

[ITSec]

Two points....Where did Buell end up? and second whats the Polaris balance sheet say?

Ciao

If you're asking about Eric, he is once again on the hunt for backers last I heard.

As far as Polaris' balance sheet, they're publicly traded (NYSE:PII) so you can look it up - but they're doing pretty well. In addition to the motorcycles, they have ATVs, snowmobiles, Slingshots, electric vehicles, and military vehicles.

[lucky phil]

If you're asking about Eric, he is once again on the hunt for backers last I heard.

As far as Polaris' balance sheet, they're publicly traded (NYSE:PII) so you can look it up - but they're doing pretty well. In addition to the motorcycles, they have ATVs, snowmobiles, Slingshots, electric vehicles, and military vehicles.

Actually the comment was meant to be an ironic one, Buell went bust and Polaris seems to be a successful, well run company that knows it engineering and the market.
So maybe having Indian and Victory in the same stable isn't such a bad idea.

Ciao

[Kev m]

Maybe I can explain better.

Sure they don't physically share components, and one is a 4V OHC (Vic) while the other a 2V pushrod (Indian) motor. But it's obvious they share many concepts and design architecture (which makes sense as they probably shared many design/engineering resources and there were reasons for Vic's choices).


Indian and Victory design similarities:

* Touring bikes both use stamped aluminum frames.

* Both motors 101mm Nikasil lined bores (Victory 108mm stroke / Indian 113mm stroke)

* V-twins with plain bearings and side-by-side rods, Vic 50 degree angle / Indian 49 degree angle

* Compression ratios Vic 9.4:1 / Indian 9.5:1

* Trans/Primary Drive - 6-speed/Gear both

* Stator mounting - to primary cover both

I'm sure there are more small design similarities, but that's what comes to mind.

Taking two similar models like the Victory Cross Country and Indian Chief Vintage (RK competitors) some similarities and differences in dimensions:

Length and Wheelbase - (Indian has more wheelbase) - Vic: 104.3" & 65.7" vs. 103.7" & 68.1

Seat height - Vic: 26.3" vs. Indian 26.0"

Tire sizes both - 130mm front / 180mm rear (Vic has 18" front, all the rest are 16" wheels) - Dunlop Elites all around.

Brakes all - 300mm floating rotors w/ 4-piston front calipers & 2-piston rear caliper

Ground Clearance - Vic 5.8" vs. Indian 5.5"

Rake/Trail - Vic 29 degrees/5.6" vs. Indian 29 degrees/6.1"

Rear suspensions - both monoshock (Vic has more travel front and rear)


So sure, they may not be as similar as Chevy Colorado and Canyon - but they share a lot of similar design attributes purposely differentiated for marketing. At the end of the day they are probably more similar than different.

[Red Dog]

Owned & rode Guzzi's for over 40 years now.  Always said there was no other brand out there except Triumph that I would ever buy & ride.

I used to stop in to the local Vic dealer just to mess with the new sales people. 
The guys who had been there for a long time would laugh when they saw me coming & make sure I got the newbie.

I'd run the boy thru his paces then look at him & say: "You see that bike I'm on, well it's 40 years old & since I've had that bike I've gone thru 3 wives, 4 trucks & 2 houses. 
You got a better chance of getting my wife on a trade than that bike".  This went on for about 4 years.

When they introduced the Gunner I liked it well enough to buy it.  I rode it for 3 months & put 12,000 miles on it, it was a good bike, not a Guzzi with soul but a lot of heart. 
At the time I was going to retire & take a long ride around this great country of ours so I started looking at the Vic Tour models.  I ended up with a 2013 Cross Country Tour & the only reason I went for it was they allowed me my full purchase price on the Gunner plus threw in some extras on the Tour so I rode the Gunner for 12,000 miles for free.

Now about Vic's:  They are the "American Moto Guzzi"! LOL  They are a great, dependable, easy to maintain & forgiving machine. 
You just have to forgive:
The transmission that makes Guzzi's trans seem perfect. 
The $6.00 circuit breaker that causes electrical issues.
The battery cables that loosen up & cause the ECU to mis-read sensors.

AND don't ride it like it is a big fat cruiser!

These bikes like to shift above 4000 rpm, run best & get best mileage at 3000 rpm. ( I know low by Guzzi standards but compared to HD....)
Don't be afraid of curves, I love messing with sport bike riders on a 900lb "garbage wagon".

And if you want some real performance about $1500.00 to $2000.00 will get you to the 115hp & 110tq range in less than a day.

I've had the Vic now for two years & have put 40,000 miles on it & can see that 100,000 is not out of the picture.

I like the Vic it is by far the best foul weather bike I have owned.  In super heavy rain if I maintain a speed of 45 mph or higher I don't hardly get wet & the bags/trunk stay dry. 
Heated grips & seat make winter riding easy, the floorboards are huge so I can stretch out or pull my feet back & sit like I was on a standard.
The cruise works wonderfull, switches are laid out nice, dash is easy to read day or night. 
Fuel mileage city is about 32/35 & hiway 35/40 & that is pen & paper not a lying computer.

Yeah I really like the Vic but when somebody asked me the other day if I could only keep one of my bikes my first reply without thinking was:
"Yeah the Mille GT"

[JJ]

Having owned and ridden 33 bikes, (Japanese, British, German, Italian, Big Twin Harley's, etc.),  in the last 49 years, here are the two in my garage right now: 1998 Moto Guzzi Centauro GT, and a 2014 Victory Vision.

Both quirky, and have a "love it or hate it design", but both fun bikes. :1:

No complaints about my Vision.  Excellent two up long distance touring bike.  I like the new Indians and glad to see Polaris embracing this legendary marque. 

Have logged >125,000 miles on four Big Twin Harley's - 2 Electra Glide Sports (FLH-S) and 2 Road Kings (FLHR).  Also good road bikes, and would not hesitate to buy another Harley.

In the end, it's good that riders have several choices today for American motorcycles.

[Red Dog]

Yeah I'm happy we have got some American competition again.
Did test ride an Indian but felt cramped & locked in compared to the Vic & the power fell off too quick.
Just wish Motus was not so pricey I would really like to try one but at $30,000.....

[LowRyter]

I couldn't disagree more.

Indian vs Victory is a night and day difference in terms of power delivery and ergonomics.  Indians have a much more compact but heavy feel, where on the vics you get to stretch out more but handling is very light. Also the power on the indians comes on instantly and there's really no point to spinning them passed 4k rpms as they stop making power. Not so on the vics. The 106 actually has pretty mediocre low end power but that engine rewards u greatly between 3-5k rpm. Very different character between those engines. Those bikes are nothing alike, with the exception of both brands being classified as cruisers.

it's hard for me discern much differnce from an engine that revs to 4k vs 5k when I've been riding a Guzzi or 4 cyl bike.

I think the big Vics and Indians ride very much alike, both feel heavier than a Harley.  So if I was going to compare the touring Vics and Indians, they are more alike than the nearest competitors from Harley and Japan.

Again, I don't ride them constantly. But I was surprised that two mechanically different bikes felt so similar.  The common elements being weight and hitting the limiter when I was just getting on the power band.  By comparison a Road King seems nimble. 

[mjptexas]

So some interesting statistics (from 2015 Annual Reports)

FY 2015 HD Sales - $6 Billion.  FY 2015 Polaris Sales - $4.7 Billion.  The two companies are in the same league size wise.

Now the interesting part: Polaris motorcycle sales - $607 Million or about 10% of Harley sales.  However, they claim a 74% growth in sales for 2015, which I suspect is the result of the interest in Indian.

What's the point?  I'd say Polaris is in this for the long haul.  It's primary advantage over Harley is the market diversification (motorcycles, snowmobiles, off road 4 wheelers). 

Polaris has it's head to head Harley competitor in the form of Indian.  I'd bet we'll see Victory continue to transition to more of a sport/power cruiser line, which isn't a bad thing.

[Red Dog]

Hey LowRyter:
The heavy feeling goes away pretty quick & the big Vic's are amazingly easy to handle at low speeds I am always surprised when I whip that bike around in a parking lot or gas station even loaded with camp gear & passenger.

There are very few Harleys that will keep up with a Vic in the corners so it all depends on what you expect/want or need from a bike.
I hit the rev limiter a couple of times when I got my first Vic but like any other machine you adapt to it.

I'll admit that a 1400 Guzzi will out run a Vic from stop or a 65/70 mph roll but a stock Vic will also out run a stage one Harley no prob.

Hey MjpTexas:
Gotta agree with where Vic is probably going to go. 
They have been building the rep of "Real American Muscle" & the aftermarket is sure supporting it. 
There are some pretty hot Vic's out there & combined with their ability to handle I think they can make some serious inroads to the disposable cash.

[LowRyter]

Hey LowRyter:
The heavy feeling goes away pretty quick & the big Vic's are amazingly easy to handle at low speeds I am always surprised when I whip that bike around in a parking lot or gas station even loaded with camp gear & passenger.

There are very few Harleys that will keep up with a Vic in the corners so it all depends on what you expect/want or need from a bike.
I hit the rev limiter a couple of times when I got my first Vic but like any other machine you adapt to it.

I'll admit that a 1400 Guzzi will out run a Vic from stop or a 65/70 mph roll but a stock Vic will also out run a stage one Harley no prob.

Hey MjpTexas:
Gotta agree with where Vic is probably going to go. 
They have been building the rep of "Real American Muscle" & the aftermarket is sure supporting it. 
There are some pretty hot Vic's out there & combined with their ability to handle I think they can make some serious inroads to the disposable cash.

RD, I've ridden them all.  IMO None of the Vic & Indian tourers are as sporty as a Cal 14 or even a Road King. Neither engine even likes to rev like a Harley (much less a Guzzi), they have strong torque and handle competently but the riding position is quite extreme.  The new Road King feels more balanced, upright and agile IMO, none are even close to the Cal.

I am not knocking the Vic or the Indian.  They are well made and nice bikes and would be great if I was looking for a very big "bagger".   I just don't like hitting rev limiter when the fun begins and want something more tossable & balanced than a Road King.  For me even the Cal 14 is too much a cruiser (I like the Beemer RT best).

My point is that the Vic and the Indian ride very similar despite being mechanically different.  I can't think of two different makes of baggers feel as similar to these two.   I would guess they are well made and reliable motorcycles.

I think Victory has gone the opposite direction from the original 92 "Sport" model.  I am sure the market caused this, they brought in Arlen Ness and changed direction. 

[atavar]

Everything I have read about the Victory's leads me to believe they are great bikes.  Having said that I would still have a hard time buying something that looks like it was designed by George Jetson 20 years ago.  But that's just me.. 
Any style is better than no style and I am thrilled these are out there for those who appreciate their unique lines.

[Kev m]

If I haven't already I should say I'm a fan of both Vic and Indian with regards to tech if not always all of their style choices (though I feel that way about HD and Guzzi too at times).

That said:

There are very few Harleys that will keep up with a Vic in the corners

You gotta stop right there, because the Touring bikes from both Harley and Vic corner pretty competitively, and the cruisers I've ridden from Vic scrape the crap out of pegs before any of the touring bikes (sadly like a lot of the cruisers from HD too).

I don't see that big Vic advantage there.

[JJ]

Yeah I'm happy we have got some American competition again.
Did test ride an Indian but felt cramped & locked in compared to the Vic & the power fell off too quick.
Just wish Motus was not so pricey I would really like to try one but at $30,000.....

Regarding MOTUS, yes, they are more like $35K+ - - but if had the disposable lettuce, I would BUY one in a NY minute! :1:   A beautiful piece of American engineering!!  (Sort of Guzzi-like as well!)

[Red Dog]

You gotta stop right there, because the Touring bikes from both Harley and Vic corner pretty competitively, and the cruisers I've ridden from Vic scrape the crap out of pegs before any of the touring bikes (sadly like a lot of the cruisers from HD too).
I don't see that big Vic advantage there.

Well maybe the bike has capability but the general run of riders that own them don't or won't hit curves as fast as I do on the Vic. 
Even the steel frame Gunner that has the worst cornering capability of them I could still lose HD & Jap cruisers in the corners.

If you have scraped "pegs" on Vic's then that is the steel frame bike you are riding & they will touch down quicker than the Cross bikes do which is a total different horse.

The "Jetson" bike is the Vision which I have to agree I don't care for the looks of it.

[Red Dog]

RD, I've ridden them all.  IMO None of the Vic & Indian tourers are as sporty as a Cal 14 or even a Road King. Neither engine even likes to rev like a Harley (much less a Guzzi), they have strong torque and handle competently but the riding position is quite extreme.  The new Road King feels more balanced, upright and agile IMO, none are even close to the Cal.

I think Victory has gone the opposite direction from the original 92 "Sport" model.  I am sure the market caused this, they brought in Arlen Ness and changed direction.

Sorry I just can't wrap my head around a Road King being "Sporty" maybe I'll go test ride a new one.
A few years ago I was trying to help a Road King rider with low speed turns & he got so frustrated he asked me to try his bike.
It felt like a mini-bike, like I was sitting on top & seperate from the bike. It shook like a paint shaker.  I will admit it was an easy bike to throw around in the parking lot & it was then I realized that it was probably one reason they are so popular: AnyBody can ride one!

HD's can rev??? Really??  I can't buy that one either.  If they rev why do so many HD riders shift so quick? 
When I tell them I shift at 4000 they look at me like I'm nuts & tell me I'm gonna blow the engine.
Maybe like I said to Kevin could be the bike is capable but not the rider?
The only HD's around here that get wound up are the guys with loud pipes & they will still be in 4th gear between lights.
Now I do know some HD guys who build race engines & those will wind up & are quite awesome street machines but they do have a pile of money invested to make them go.

On the bright side I do agree that Vic changed directions after the V92 but I think they will go back in that direction soon.

[LowRyter]

RD, I agree with all your comments about Harleys but I was comparing a Road King to Vics and Indians.  "Sporty" by comparison.