Oops. Speedo end washer slipped into end case

[Irishflyer]

96 Cal 1100.  Putting speedo drive gear back in, with the two washers.  Well, had the washer held on with some grease, lowering it into the hole like a game of Operation.  Not sure what I caught, but it jarred the assembly a little bit.  No problem, get magnet and get washer out on the bottom of that case.  Well, its not right at the bottom of the hole, apparently it accelerated away like a Clark Griswold sled.  Next question, can I get a magnet under the speedo worm gear and hope to get it, or would I be better off taking off the drive shaft, and the end seal (and the little damn ball bearing), and try to hope it is laying in there?  I don't really want to pull a transmission to get to this washer.  Any suggestions short of arson are welcome..:-)

[leroy_can]

     I had that a couple of years ago I don't think it can go anywhere except to lie under the gear. I tried to magnetize a feeler gauge that could slide in and hopefully pull it out but that didn't work although it came into view occasionally. In the end I used a little grease on the feeler gauge and it stuck enough to bring it to where I grabbed it with a magnet. I had just installed a trans from a bike with a different rear ratio and that was why I had taken it out. I did it with the bike warm and that was probably why it slid in due to thinner warm lube

[jrt]

Well... I would say caution is worth considering here.  A long time ago, I took the speedo drive off my G5 because the speedometer bounced too much.  I just put the empty cable housing back in the hole after I removed the drive cable.  Well- the ball bearing (I think that was it) dropped into the transmission and proceeded to wreak all sorts of havoc in there.  I had to buy a new transmission.  And sit in god-forsaken hell-hole of a town in north Texas for hours, until someone picked my bike and me up.  Ugh.

[Old Jock]

The bottom washer can get picked up by the worm gear and drop into the box, as stated by jrt.

Then you can be lucky and it goes nowhere or unlucky and it get ground up and proceeds to wreak havoc to the layshaft bearing.

IMHO you need to find it, I've been there too more than once where the washer has dropped down.

Look on it as 2 step process first to get it out using grease and a magnet, you may just luck in (it's never happened to me though)

It's not going to do any damage trying to turn the transmission to see if you can get it show up and pull out.

If that fails then you'll need to remove the shaft and worm gear to get the washer.

The layshaft nut is torqued very tight and also staked into one of the grooves in the layshaft, make sure to break the stake. After that a rattle gun and deep impact socket is probably the best way to get the nut off, at least it's what I did.

Except the time I didn't properly burst the stake and ended up having to cut the nut off with a Dremel and cutting wheel.............. .not something I'm in any rush to do again.



Just my experience

[SIR REAL ED]

I've had good luck in similar situations by flushing the part out with a less viscous fluid, like Kerosene.

If you can't flush it out, you might be able to get it to "flow" into a position to reach it with a magnet.

[Wayne Orwig]

I guess I would try to use a thin wire to fish it out.
Don't leave it.

Worse case you pull the swingarm, rear seal, and layshaft nut. Bummer.

I have encountered a number of transmissions that didn't even HAVE that bottom washer. Normal rotation loads the gear UP towards the the top washer. That bottom washer only gets used when you are in reverse.

[Irishflyer]

Update:  Ok, tried a magnetized feeler gauge, and also tried it with grease.  No joy, might be beyond the reach of it.  I have the bike on the center stand, and I leaned it to the right, hoping the oil in the back case would gleefully flow the washer back to the opening.  Nothing yet.  Starting to think it would be faster to remove the swingarm, seal, and nut and fish it out.  Then re-install the speedo drive gear with the seal still out.  Which means I will need a seal..which mean won't be journeying around the Sandhills today...lol. 

[Irishflyer]

I guess I would try to use a thin wire to fish it out.
Don't leave it.

Worse case you pull the swingarm, rear seal, and layshaft nut. Bummer.

I have encountered a number of transmissions that didn't even HAVE that bottom washer. Normal rotation loads the gear UP towards the the top washer. That bottom washer only gets used when you are in reverse.

  That is good to know on the washer.  The original symptom was the speedo gear on the shaft was slipping, and when I removed it, didn't see any washers on it or on the bottom of the hole.  With the quick and rapid escape of this washer I am now looking for, I suspect maybe the first one might have also did a rapid escape.  I am thinking for peace of mind is to remove the swingarm and everything around it. 

[drdwb]

Just wondering if you can rent one of those high tech little cameras to look around in there and locate the washer?

[Old Jock]

Think it was when I was blanking off the drive on the 1100, I installed Speedhut gauges and drive the speedo off a pickup on the rear disc bolts, that I removed the shaft and worm drive to retrieve said washer and found 2 in there.

Why was the speedo gear slipping? The only things I can think of is no ball (bearing) locking the worm gear, or really serious wear to the gears or worm drive, which I've never heard of.

I doubt you'd get a remote inspection device in there. The worm drive takes up nearly all the space that's cutout of the end case to allow the speedo drive to engage on the worm gear. It could prove useful though if after removal of the worm gear you still couldn't see it.

If I was in that far I'd replace the seal anyway, but each to their own.

Seal is nothing special as I remember it's a 35x47x7mm, you should have no difficulty purchasing one, or you can get the Guzzi part

When removing the worm drive use a pliers or something like them to grip the inside of the worm drive, try to avoid grabbing the worm drive on the outside face as you could mark the machined face that the seal runs on.

The deep impact socket you need to remove the layshaft nut is a 27mm AF, it's quite shallow, the nut sits inside a recess so you can only get a socket onto about half of the hex face

[Irishflyer]

I am down to the nut, and I have a 27mm deep well.  The seal is a 47x35x5, according to This Old Tractor.  I am going to check with a parts store if they have a very thin wall 27mm.  I will use an impact for removal.  I do have a remote camera, with a 90° mirror, but it's too dark past the gear to see anything. 
  I didn't realize a sensor could be mounted on the rear, to catch one of those bolts!  Previous owner bought some nice Speedhuts, but couldn't get them to work correctly on the speedo end

[Wayne Orwig]

  That is good to know on the washer.  The original symptom was the speedo gear on the shaft was slipping, and when I removed it, didn't see any washers on it or on the bottom of the hole.  With the quick and rapid escape of this washer I am now looking for, I suspect maybe the first one might have also did a rapid escape.  I am thinking for peace of mind is to remove the swingarm and everything around it.

Before you go there.
Put grease on the worm gear. Move the bike forward carefully. The grease should pick up the washer and lift it.

[Irishflyer]

Good idea!  How exposed to the rest of the transmission is that little cavity for the worm gear?  With my luck it would pick it up and quickly deposit it into the main transmission case...lol.  Taking this apart is giving me a chance to inspect everything.  The swingarm boot is ripped, so will take this opportunity to replace that, lube everything else. 

[Wayne Orwig]

Can't get past the bearing into the transmission. I could see going wild and damaging the speedo worm gear though.

[John A]

Sometimes a little goo from a rodent sticky trap on a wire can snag it but if you’ve put grease on it may not work.

[Irishflyer]

Well, bit the bullet and took the nut off, retained the little ball bearing and the worm drive, and didn't touch the seal, and got the washer out.  It was stuck in a pile of grease against the seal, out of reach of the worm drive.  Sucked taking everything off to this point, but now I can replace the boot on the swingarm, check everything, install the speedo drive and make sure everything goes where it should.  If I can get the swingarm to magically go back into place, nothing harmed and gained some good experience. 
  I appreciate the suggestions, and if any volunteers want to come here and reassemble everything, let me know and Ill leave the front door open.  And if you can find the good scotch, you deserve to drink it. 

[pehayes]

Go back to the start of this story.  IIRC,  you can't install the vertical drive gear with the washer already attached to it.  I don't believe there is adequate room.  You hit the output shaft gear with the lower washer and that is what knocked it off your vertical shaft.

I have always done this by reaching in and installing a dab of grease on the casting at the bottom of the hole.  Now reach in with a long piece of coat hanger wire so its end fits into the recess at the bottom.  No slide the thrust washer down the coat hanger wire until it seats and centers in the grease puddle at the bottom.  Now remove the coat hanger and install the vertical shaft right into the resting lower washer.  Bob's  your uncle.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Irishflyer]

That sounds like a good plan on the install!

[Old Jock]

Good result AFAIK, as Wayne points out the layshaft bearing in the way. What can happen is the washer gets chewed by the speedo drive messes up the worm gear then the resulting debris can make it's way into the layshaft (output shaft if you don't use the Guzzi tech speek) roller bearing and rearrange things in the bearing somewhat.

You had a passing interest in mounting a sensor to read of the rear disc bolts, this is Magni Sfida 1100 (1100 Sporti) but shows how I did it, if it's of any use

[Dharma Bum]

Glad to hear the operation was a success!