To Tonti or Spine?

[rjamesohio]

The long time plan to build a hot rod Guzzi started two years ago with the acquisition of a pile of parts that included the Ducati inverted front end, Tonti frame, one and a half round head motors, a 5 speed tranny, multiple Tonti swing arms and a nice Tonti rear drive that looks practically new. Misc wheels and tires, et al. Titled as a G5 which matches the frame.

The thought was to build something like the gorgeous Tontis seen here recently with modern inverted front ends.

Well - I just acquired most of a V11 spine frame and am think now about mating that Duc front end with the spine frame.

Challenges : 5 speed may not be wide enough to mate the output flange on the wider spine swing arm. And why put a round head in a spine frame? Somehow it seems like running a flathead motor in a ‘67 Mustang.



So - thoughts on this fun project? In either case the idea is to build alloy body panels, this is definitely not a restoration.

Which base would you go with?




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[Tusayan]

The first spine frame v-twin Guzzi of the early 80s had a round head engine, so don't let that hold you back.  Built by Tony Foale.

http://www.guzziriders.org/id-this-bike_topic3781_page2.html

[fotoguzzi]

  Built by Tony Foale.

http://www.guzziriders.org/id-this-bike_topic3781_page2.html

INTERESTING

[fotoguzzi]

 
Well - I just acquired most of a V11   
why put a round head in a spine frame?  /91b73f0b6cc28922e522b30461fa9d9e.jpg[/img]

So - thoughts on this fun project

why put a 5 speed in a spine frame? you didn't get a tranny in the most of?

[rjamesohio]

Brad - “most of” meant most of the frame plus the rear wheel and final drive. So yeah looking for a 6 speed and possibly engine.

And here is one of the items I’d love to have y’all weigh in on: will any modern 6 speed work in a spine frame or only v11 sport/LeMans? The question arises because of the vast width difference between the spine and Tonti swingarns...


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[rjamesohio]

That link had a great naked spine frame photo which makes it easy to see the various attachment and pickup points. Reattaching here for those that didn’t follow the link.



Would love to see a rear photo of a similar bike to examine the prop shaft arrangement


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[Tusayan]

You'll note that the photo is an original style Daytona engine/frame with a later V11 Sport six-speed gearbox and matching V11 Sport rear drive unit.  Not sure exactly what you have in mind, but as I recall the engine was originally shifted sideways to allow use of a five speed gearbox with a spine frame and 160 rear tire, but the six speed gearbox designed for the spine frame eliminated that necessity on the V11 Sport.

I saw a '97 injected 1100 Sport with a six speed gearbox in 1998... at the factory in Mandello, all hacked up to fit with thermocouples and data logger taped to the tank.

Cool stuff Mandellese style, pre-takeover.

[rjamesohio]

You'll note that the photo is an original style Daytona engine/frame with a later V11 Sport six-speed gearbox and matching V11 Sport rear drive unit.  Not sure exactly what you have in mind, but as I recall the engine was originally shifted sideways to allow use of a five speed gearbox with a spine frame and 160 rear tire, but the six speed gearbox designed for the spine frame eliminated that necessity on the V11 Sport.

I saw a '97 injected 1100 Sport with a six speed gearbox in 1998... at the factory in Mandello, all hacked up to fit with thermocouples and data logger taped to the tank.

Cool stuff, Mandellese style, pre-takeover.

Exactly. I’m thinking a 6 speed would be a much better match if I go with the spine frame rather than the Tonti. But - will any 6 speed work (Griso, Breva et al) or were the v11 6 speeds unique? I do have the v11 rear drive and swing arm btw.


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[Tusayan]

V11 Sport six speeds and later six-speeds are different, and I don't recall hearing of anybody using a later six-speed gearbox in a spine frame bike.

[rjamesohio]

V11 Sport six speeds and later six-speeds are different, and I don't recall hearing of anybody using a later six-speed gearbox in a spine frame bike.

ThAts been the burning question today, thanks for clarifying...


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[Turin]

A roundhead might be cool in a spineframe.

[Tom]

IMHO a 5 speed trans. is better than a V11 6 speed.  A later 6 speed feels better than both but may be harder to fine and fit.  I'll leave that to others. 

[rjamesohio]

IMHO a 5 speed trans. is better than a V11 6 speed.  A later 6 speed feels better than both but may be harder to fine and fit.  I'll leave that to others.

I hope to assemble the frame and and engine block so I can see the fit of everything. I can also see both the Tonti and the spine  eventually being used so I am leaning to saving the 5 speed for the Tonti project. That said - I think the inverted Ducati front end is destined for the spine project. As soon as I get everything assembled I’ll post pics as that will answer the question as to whether a 5 speed will work but I see no way for the engine to move sideways as the spine engine mounts would only allow one mounting position, meaning the transmission is the key piece relative to whether it will position the output shaft properly for the wider swing arm.

It may be a while in the photos; have a huge project that really needs some serious attention before I can turn to this one, but the mock-up May be able to be squeezed in...


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[Tom]

Should be fun, once you figure out everything.   

[LowRyter]

Make sure the frame has a brace for the transmission. 

If it was a red frame you'll need order a brace.

[rjamesohio]

Make sure the frame has a brace for the transmission. 

If it was a red frame you'll need order a brace.

I’ve decided the answer is - BOTH!

Will start a build thread when I gather the incoming parts for the Spine Adventure.


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[Chuck in Indiana]

 

[Murray]

It will be available somewhere my understanding is the final drive for the V11/ six speed is very different in ratio's to the final drive for any of the five speeds from memory its much taller the aim was to reduce the shaft speed and increase its life. Finding a double cardon drive shaft that will match the five speed to the V 11 will be difficult to say the least. The six speed output is offset 30 mm to the left so there is no way its going to match unless you have an earlier 1100 sport frame. Or you name is Paul and you live int he Netherlands and you are prepared to do some reengineering.

 Five speed is better than the six???? in what way exactly the six speed is stronger, much more modern, and a hell of a lot better to actually use. Just make sure the spine frame is straight before you get too far it will handle vastly better than the tonti ever hopes too. You could go off the deep end and see if you can still get a Ghezzi Brian racing frame that will allow a five speed with the anti jacking system combination.

The other aftermarket bit that might be worth thinking about is a Magni paralellagramo if youa sk them nicely they might even build you a frame, you have n't mentioned any kind of budget.

[jas67]

.....
 You could go off the deep end and see if you can still get a Ghezzi Brian racing frame that will allow a five speed with the anti jacking system combination.

The other aftermarket bit that might be worth thinking about is a Magni paralellagramo if youa sk them nicely they might even build you a frame, you have n't mentioned any kind of budget.

It's fun to spend other people's money.   
 

[rjamesohio]

It's fun to spend other people's money.   
 

Not to disappoint you guys but if it’s not made by Moto Guzzi or me it likely won’t go onto this project.! Except for the Ducati front end...

Engine being picked up next week : V11 motor. 5 speed will likely get saved with the Tonti bits and the round head motors, and the Tonti swingarms and final drive. V11 rear drive already in hand...


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[John A]

I would send the heads to Mike Rich Motorsports for a freshen up and some porting, both engines. You won't be sorry!

[rjamesohio]

I would send the heads to Mike Rich Motorsports for a freshen up and some porting, both engines. You won't be sorry!

What does he do to them?


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[John A]

Anything you want but talk to him, it's all about airflow. Great improvement in the way it runs

[earemike]

 Five speed is better than the six???? in what way exactly the six speed is stronger, much more modern, and a hell of a lot better to actually use. Just make sure the spine frame is straight before you get too far it will handle vastly better than the tonti ever hopes too.

There was a pull down report for the 6 speed not long after it came out (don’t recall where I read it) allegedly the V11 box was designed to put much more power through it than the V11 engine offered. Of course change in ownership etc led to the Breva box.

According to some the 6 speed bikes FELT faster.

Interesting re handling, I figure the spine frame has more clearance but never noticed frame flex on the Tonti?  early ‘80’s Suzuki’s were way worse in my experience

[Murray]

There was a pull down report for the 6 speed not long after it came out (don�t recall where I read it) allegedly the V11 box was designed to put much more power through it than the V11 engine offered. Of course change in ownership etc led to the Breva box.

According to some the 6 speed bikes FELT faster.

Interesting re handling, I figure the spine frame has more clearance but never noticed frame flex on the Tonti?  early �80�s Suzuki�s were way worse in my experience

The six speed isn't saddled with the victorian signal box action of the five speed.

[rjamesohio]

There was a pull down report for the 6 speed not long after it came out (don’t recall where I read it) allegedly the V11 box was designed to put much more power through it than the V11 engine offered. Of course change in ownership etc led to the Breva box.

According to some the 6 speed bikes FELT faster.

Interesting re handling, I figure the spine frame has more clearance but never noticed frame flex on the Tonti?  early ‘80’s Suzuki’s were way worse in my experience

So six speed boxes are : V11, Breva and Griso 1100. I know there are differences but wondered if dimensionally they are the same in terms of length and width between the input and output shafts?


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[pete roper]

No, they aren’t. I’ll have to do some research and head scratching to actually work out the exact differences but the main drivers for change in shaft spacing was the widening of tyres over the years.

In most ways the original six speed is actually a better box. Yes, it’s slightly heavier due to its four shaft construction and associated extra part numbers and cost a well set up, (And that is critical!) four shaft, camplate change, box is absolutely superb, really, almost Suzuki good!

The problem is that they were often not machined or assembled well, particularly the cam plates, and there was the spring problem recently finally put to rest by Chuck and being dealt with by Scud.

The ‘Nuovo’ six speed is essentially bulletproof and is generally a very nice unit but it’s ....*Pleasantness* seems once again to be very individual. Why I don’t know because I’ve never had to take one apart. I did disassemble one once out of interest but one doesn’t tell a story! The one in my Griso is a nice box, not as nice as a really good four shafter, but good. The one in my heavily beaten, obviously abused and neglected 120,000 km + Stelvio is as good as any four shafter I’ve ever used! Once moving I don’t need to use the clutch, up or down the ratios! (Don’t get me wrong, I almost always use the clutch, I just don’t have to!) but I have not the slightest idea why!

If you are using a ‘Nuovo six speed’ in an earlier model you will need to use one off a 2 Valve bike as these still use the earlier twin plate clutch, hub and associated hardware. If you use a later box you’ll need the later clutch too.

At the end of the day arseing about with transmission swaps is a nightmare. If you’re determined I’m sure you could, with difficulty, make anything work. Really though, is it worth it?

Pete

[earemike]

So six speed boxes are : V11, Breva and Griso 1100. I know there are differences but wondered if dimensionally they are the same in terms of length and width between the input and output shafts?


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As far as I know the Breva 11 got a different box to the V11. Only reason I *think* I know is the dealer let me ride a demo bike while my V11 was in for service. The shifts seemed slicker & the guys told me it had a completely redesigned box. Caveat: I don’t know what year the newer bike was.

I did two springs in my ‘03 V11, didn’t touch them on my Scura (some 40k km) & my new 55k km V11 hasn’t needed the spring either.

My comment re the six speed feeling faster is reinforced by a second hand quote from Dr John when the V11 came out - allegedly he said they were not any faster than the injected sports.

For me it’s only about your rear Tyre size, Magni showed me one of his special order bikes for the Japan market (52 made?) & pointed out the 180 rear using his frame.

Probably worth mentioning, the early V11 ran a 160 rear, the box was then offset to accommodate the 180 (& swingarm looks like the pinched it to widen it).

Blokes have fitted the six speed boxes to the Daytona but my modified racing ran a 180 rear with a 5 speed...

So many choices/complications 

[rjamesohio]

As far as I know the Breva 11 got a different box to the V11. Only reason I *think* I know is the dealer let me ride a demo bike while my V11 was in for service. The shifts seemed slicker & the guys told me it had a completely redesigned box. Caveat: I don’t know what year the newer bike was.

I did two springs in my ‘03 V11, didn’t touch them on my Scura (some 40k km) & my new 55k km V11 hasn’t needed the spring either.

My comment re the six speed feeling faster is reinforced by a second hand quote from Dr John when the V11 came out - allegedly he said they were not any faster than the injected sports.

For me it’s only about your rear Tyre size, Magni showed me one of his special order bikes for the Japan market (52 made?) & pointed out the 180 rear using his frame.

Probably worth mentioning, the early V11 ran a 160 rear, the box was then offset to accommodate the 180 (& swingarm looks like the pinched it to widen it).

Blokes have fitted the six speed boxes to the Daytona but my modified racing ran a 180 rear with a 5 speed...

So many choices/complications 

Well my friends I have an early Griso box on the way (thanks Pete ROWE for the excellent info on the two valve Griso s using the earlier clutch setup) and we shall see how it fits up. I will post pictures.

The Tonti project will be-assembled as a roller so the bodywork can be built. Going to use Quota forks (shortened) on that one.

These projects are becoming way too encompassing but maybe I can get back to the car project when they are rollers. A buddy is betting that they have engulfed the shop and the car will wait....


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[Chuck in Indiana]

and the car will wait....

cars. Pftttt. BTDT.