Question about how a 2003 Stone vibrates while accelerating

[Declan]

I'm really close to buying a 2003 Stone with low miles. I have never ridden one of these bikes and I wanted to find out if the vibration that I felt was normal. When accelerating I could really feel the engine vibrating within the frame and once target speed was attained and I let up on the throttle, the excess vibration went away. The bike pulled really well and felt excellent. This happened exactly the same at all speeds up to 70 MPH. Is this normal? My Ambo never had that kind of power or vibration so I would appreciate any information. The seller said that the dealer said the bike didn't need any recalls (VIN ZGUKDD01X3M111307). The info that I found online says that the bike is in the recall range.
From online:
Recalls involved the California models: Stone, Titanium, EV, and EV Touring.

California Titanium (USA): <ZGUKDD0074M133659
California EV Touring (USA): <ZGUKDD0024M112346
California Stone (USA): <ZGUKDD0164M111418

California Titanium: <ZGUKDC1203M133654
California EV and EV Touring: <ZGUKDC1203M112261
California Stone: <ZGUKDC4203M111687

Two different part #'s needed: One is the parts, and one is the special tools.

Also, if the bike has a single clutch, how many thousands of miles until they usually fail?  Thanks.

[LowRyter]

The bike needs to be rev'd to more than 3500 rpm so it isn't lugged.  Don't shift into 5th gear until 75 mph.

This is a topic that can lead to deep do-do    :winer

 :beat_horse

[rodekyll]

There were a number of recalls your bike may be in range for.  If they've been done or not is another question.  If he says it doesn't need any, the questions are "Have they already been done?; Who did them? WHICH ONES? and When?"  I can't answer that, but there may be ways to find out.

The vibration is not normal.  It sounds like one pot is hitting harder than the other -- most likely cause is basic EFI throttle settings/synch. (also could simply be bad/stale gas).  The good news is that once you get it set it shouldn't need much further touching.  I've run mine for about 5 years without having to mess with any of that stuff.  It's a hydro, so unless you hear a valve clatter (hydros don't clatter like solid lifter engines do) it's not the valve adjustment.  If there is a clatter, a hydro lifter insert has failed.  

All that's left are filters, plugs, and the basic throttle body settings and synch.  If you're not comfortable with doing these tasks yourself, take it to a shop that knows.  If you're interested in what happens to set them up, offer the wrench a 6pack to hang out (out of his way) and watch.  Then you can both get the thing up to snuff and also decide if this is a level you want to educate/equip yourself for.  It does take some tools -- VOM meter and vacuum synch tools at least.  At best you'd also have some level of diagnostic/tweak software to sniff out and adjust trim settings.

[Declan]

Thanks for the info. I hadn't had a chance to look at the 2003 Stone mechanically yet but I will contact the seller tomorrow to try to do it tomorrow. I know to check timing rubber cover to look at single/double clutch and pull the valve cover to look for aluminum valve spring tops and the broke off valve adjusters. I called MI earlier and they quoted me apx 750 for parts for a double clutch for the 2003 Stone. I'll do a compression check to make sure there aren't any big issues that can't be fixed by a better injection balance. I'll keep all of the data and post here for others in the future. Thanks

[rocker59]

The bike needs to be rev'd to more than 3500 rpm so it isn't lugged.  Don't shift into 5th gear until 75 mph.

This is a topic that can lead to deep do-do    :winer

 :beat_horse

Yeah.  A search of "vibration" would net plenty of results here on WG.

Declan, it sounds to me as if you're riding in too high a gear for your selected throttle opening.

[fotoguzzi]

 If they've been done or not is another question.  If he says it doesn't need any, the questions are "Have they already been done?; Who did them? WHICH ONES? and When?" 

and do you believe it..

sounds like you know what your doing, verify the fix was done by a physical inspection. ask if the fix was done at zero miles, if not did they inspect/replace the oil pump too?

[MotoGoosy]

Got an '02 100 CA Ev and yes, the vibration is normal.  Been to 3 shops (1 a dealer) and ridden another guy's bike.  You feel every move of a piston like a hammer on the frame.  First, the engine is transverse-mounted, so the vibration doesn't transfer to the wheels and shocks.  It ain't no Kawabasmo like my Mean Streak, which has 1/2 inch rubber between engine mounts and frame.  Get used to it, enjoy the other qualities of the bike.  Like the dealer said, "Atsa Guzzi".

[Semper-guzzi]

My 2001 does vibrate more than the 2003 aluminum I had, but it's not crazy. I can still see out the mirrors. My hands don't go numb.

There was also I triple tree clamp recall on my 03... yours might be in it as well. Just food for thought. Well sorted hydro pulls and pulls hard. The butt dyno can definitely tell the difference from the 01 to the 03.

[oldbike54]

 Oh good grief , I've been riding for almost 47 years now , and Guzzis don't vibrate that much Goosy , give it up , or sell it , or learn to let it rev a bit , or
something . Yeah , they are crude ditch pumps , and can be possess , er , character , but if running properly they DON'T shake that much .

  Dusty

[lawries]

Oh good grief , I've been riding for almost 47 years now , and Guzzis don't vibrate that much Goosy , give it up , or sell it , or learn to let it rev a bit , or
something . Yeah , they are crude ditch pumps , and can be possess , er , character , but if running properly they DON'T shake that much .

  Dusty

:+1

I have a 2004 Stone, first clutch lasted 50k, have 40k on current one

[boatdetective]

The top end and clutch jobs have been discussed here ad infinatum. Look throught the hole in the bell housing to confirm whether or not it's a single plate. Changing the clutch out would be a time consuming, though relatively straight forward, job.

My 03 EV did not shake unless I was lugging it under 2500 off the line.  RK seemed to zero in on things.

If thwere isn't permanent damage and if you can get it sorted, these engines are really, really nice. Smooth and very quiet. The transmission and ergos are what ultimately convinced me to sell mine.

[rodekyll]

Hydro's didn't munch up their innards immediately upon first startup.  Mine had ~7k on the clock before it went kibbles and bits on the previous owner, and another 5k with the bad oil pump/partial recall before the oil pump bearings were pulverized and the timing chain got a night job with the Fresno State Mariachi Band (my first clue that the recall service suk'd).  The smart and the lucky got theirs serviced before the bad damage happened. 

IMO, if the hydro recall was performed before anything failed and the cam/lifters and oil all looked good, the oil pump inspection may be a very good idea, but not critical.  If when the engine got opened up there was swarf in the oil and bite marks on the cam, then the oil pump check is critical, and the shop ought to produce pics of what they saw when they inspected it.  I'm not saying don't inspect the oil pump unless your camshaft has no lobes --  I'd do it 100% of the time.  I'm just saying that if the recall was pre-emptive rather than reactionary and the shop didn't check the pump it might not be the end of the world.  (but how do you know?)

A week or so back we had a related topic where the damage HAD been done and the owner was wondering about the quality of his recall work.  In that topic we all argued the opposite -- the pump MUST be R&R'd and inspected due to the damage described.  So it's situational.

$0.02

[LowRyter]

we've gone quite away on this thread based on one test ride when considering the likely possibility the OP was lugging the engine.

 :beat_horse

[John Ulrich]

I ride my all day in third gear up to 60 mph....4th a 5th are for highway speeds.  Keep the rpms at 4,000 and see how you like it.

[Declan]

Thank you all for the replies. The vibration that I felt occurred while I was accelerating up to 60+ and was present equally in every gear. I been riding 40 years, ride 365 days a year and have been wrenching all of my life. When I rebuilt my 60's &70's Mercedes engines, my dial micrometer jigs could time the engine to within 10 minutes of a degree, I get machinery. On the test drive, I would guess I went into 2nd apx 20mph, 3rd apx 40mph and 4th at 60mph. I definately wasn't lugging the bike, I was on a purchase test drive, I was seeing how the sucker could pull, ie negotiate traffic filled with distracted soccer moms and visions of running the summit at Tahoe, WOT for normal running through the gears from onramp to passing in the fast lane....  The vibration wasn't 'wrong', like motogussy said, "You feel every move of a piston like a hammer on the frame" which surprised me, I thought the power strokes would be more isolated from the frame (too many UJM in my pedigree). I think you all have answered my questions well enough to my satisfaction that I'll be buying the Stone in the next two weeks. When I have cash in my hand, I'll audit the state of the clutch/engine oil detritis/cam recall status and adjust my offer at that moment and cross my fingers the seller accepts. I am 6 months away from completing a 100% restoration of a Jan 71 barn find El Dorado, aiming for that elusive Cycle Garden sparkle and I don't want to purchase another project, I'm looking for a turn-key solution to my everyday driver needs.  Rodekyll, thank you for sharing your experiences, I am listening closely to what you said and will be careful before I pull the trigger on the bike.Thank you all again and I will record the 2003 Stone's current status, how I handled issues and how the bike worked out for me in this thread in the fullness of time.

[fatbob]

It's not vibration, it's a throb, a Guzzi throb. It's her heartbeat

[Wayne Orwig]

I have a 2004 EV with about 114,000 miles on it. I have about 300,000 miles on Guzzis. Needless to say, anyone that says Guzzis vibrate a lot is just being stupid. I can only guess that the bike you tested needed the throttles put into sync or something. When they are right, they don't 'vibrate'.
 

[Lannis]

I have a 2004 EV with about 114,000 miles on it. I have about 300,000 miles on Guzzis. Needless to say, anyone that says Guzzis vibrate a lot is just being stupid. I can only guess that the bike you tested needed the throttles put into sync or something. When they are right, they don't 'vibrate'.
 

Wot 'e said.   Guzzis are very smooth bikes, and I've owned '75 up to '09 models.    You can barely feel the engine running while you're accelerating or while you're going down the highway.

If you pin the throttle while it's idling in too high a gear (in an attempt to ruin the engine), of course it will thump and throb.  So will ANY engine, and a Guzzi would probably take more of that kind of abuse than about any other bike.

So I assume that you know what "vibration" in a twin feels like, and this is not a "Princess and the Pea" situation, where the Princess tossed and turned all night because there was a pea underneath the 50 featherbeds that were stacked on each other on which she was sleeping.   If it's vibrating enough to be annoying, it's probably got a broken connecting rod or something, or the cylinders are firing WAY out of time .....

Lannis

[Sasquatch Jim]

 You are not wearing the correct under ware.

[Penderic]

You have been seduced by the ....

 :D

[Declan]

Then let me describe the 'vibration' more specifically.
General engine operation description:
1. Idled smoothly and quietly, close to a sewing machine, no valvetrain noise (hydro).
2. In each gear at a consistent speed, there wasn't excess vibration, the vibration during acceleration went away and bike felt 'normal'.
3. During each gears acceleration, I could detect through the handlebars AND entire frame, a strong movement from left to right (perpendicular to the frame) from the torque of the engine. In other words, when the engine was producing a lot of torque, it felt like the engine was shaking left to right within the frame. This torque produced a harmonic within the frame that was powerful enough for me to detect through all parts of my body that touched the frame (seat, pegs, handlebars). I guess what really caught my attention was the vibration was stronger than a normal 'vibration' but in fact had enough energy to create a harmonic energy wave which seemed to exist in every molecule of the frame. Letting off the throttle would remove the energy of the engine to 'shake' within the frame in a left to right direction and the 'vibration' would be gone.
4. There were no extraneous noises coming from the engine, just energy shaking the engine left to right while under acceleration going through the gears.
5. This left to right shaking happened immediately upon accelerating and seemed to be porportional to RPM (while accelerating).

It will likely be a week or more until I can mechanically audit the Stone and report back here.

Just saw the 'PULSE' post. COOL!! If this is normal, I'll take it. My ambo was smooth. I've ridden twins before, not a modern Guzzi though. Thanks for all the input.

[Wayne Orwig]

I don't think it is normal.

For about a year, I assumed my new Stelvio 1200 vibrated under acceleration. I had ridden a few 100 thousand miles on other Guzzis, so I assumed it was because this was the new 1200, and it was there to stay. Well, when the mirrors started to disintegrated, and I ended up putting good mirrors on, the vibration pretty much disappeared.
It was the farging mirrors shaking the handlebars.

I have to wonder if something like that is what you encountered.
 

[MotoGoosy]

Identical to mine.  Feels like the main bearings are shot.  Hammering reverberates throughout the frame.  Idles like a sewing machine, rides like a one-cylinder tractor.  Mirrors don't vibrate, just the feeling that the engine is coming apart, compared to other bikes.  It's the design.  Normal.

[oldbike54]

Identical to mine.  Feels like the main bearings are shot.  Hammering reverberates throughout the frame.  Idles like a sewing machine, rides like a one-cylinder tractor.  Mirrors don't vibrate, just the feeling that the engine is coming apart, compared to other bikes.  It's the design.  Normal.

 Nope . Actually every Vtwin Guzzi I have been around did exactly the opposite . Like an old airhead beemer , idles like a vertical twin , smooths out at higher revs.

  Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

5. This left to right shaking happened immediately upon accelerating and seemed to be porportional to RPM (while accelerating).

I think I'd have a look at the torque of the motor mount bolts.

[Two Checks]

Amazing. No matter how many long time Guzzi owners say it's not normal a Guzzi newbie says it is.

Simply amazing. My Guzzis are smoother than my last inline 4.

[Dilliw]

All of this leads to one conclusion:  if you don't know and/or can't verify this history of a hydro Guzzi then pass. 

I have an 03 and while it does have some vibration it's not anything I would notice as part of a test ride or in comparison to any other bike I've ridden.