2010 Stelvio 8v NTX ABS - Engine Rattle

[Jerdo1]

Hi,

First of all I'd like to say hello to you all - I'm a new member - from Scotland - but currently living in the south west of France - within minutes, or at the most, hours, of some of the best motorcycling roads in Europe - if not the World. I'm here for the summer with my 2010 Stelvio NTX which has taken me through twisty country roads with perfect surfaces and Alpine and coastal roads that put a massive smile on your face.

I've had the bike for 16 months and have had little or no problem with it.  There has always been a 'rattle' from the engine - which my mechanic has described as typical of an 8v Guzzi. He says some have it and some don't. I was quite happy with this until I took the bike to a French Moto Guzzi Dealership today for an unrelated exhaust problem (blowing exhaust due to missing gasket).  I THINK the rattle MAY have been getting noisier over the last six weeks - but that might have been the exhaust blowing. 

My French isn't the best but the mechanic, on starting it up, said he was worried about the noise coming from the engine.  He checked the easy accessible valves at the top of the engine and they're fine but couldn't detect what the noise - which he describes as the noisiest Guzzi he has heard - was.  He said that to investigate further he'd have to strip the engine but thought it might be the oil pump?.  He suggested that I could ride it back the 60 miles to my home in France, but advised I didn't ride it any more than that.  I'm caught between parking the bike up for the last 6 weeks of my stay here until I transport it home on a trailer or continue to squeeze every last minute out of this holiday of a lifetime !!

Unfortunately I can't get hold of my mechanic and am reluctant to commit to an engine strip without some other opinion.

My question is / are

1.  Any ideas what the noise might be?
2.  How major a job is it?
3.  Can I continue to safely ride the bike?
4.  What warning, if any, am I likely to get if the oil pump does fail - oil warning light / engine temp light etc.?


Any opinion would be welcome

Jerry

[pete roper]

Yes, it's buggered it's tappets. All the flat tappet models will do it. Do a search of this site but here is a link to get you started.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.msg1228436#msg1228436

Pete

[jmac851]

It's hard to tell what you mean by "rattle".  Could it be "pinging" because of inferior gasoline?  Could it be valve clatter? Could it be a leaking exhaust joint?  My Norge seems to rattle a lot, so did my other 8 Moto Guzzi bikes over the years. Keep riding it and pay attention to the temperatures and noises.

[Jerdo1]

Yes, it's buggered it's tappets. All the flat tappet models will do it. Do a search of this site but here is a link to get you started.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.msg1228436#msg1228436

Pete

Hi Pete,

Not being of a technical mind, but having read the link, it sounds as if this is probably what is wrong with the bike.

Can I still use it or will I
a) Cause more damage
b) Run the risk of an engine seizure or other failure without warning ?

Thanks

Jerry

[Wayne Orwig]

Can I still use it or will I
a) Cause more damage
b) Run the risk of an engine seizure or other failure without warning ?

Do NOT RUN IT.
Find out if it is worn tappets. The DLC powder that might be floating around in there can grind things up.

[oldbike54]

 Damnit , how many more times must this happen before every Guzzi mechanic catches on ?

 Dusty

[Kiwi_Roy]

I say ride the sucker, enjoy your holiday and fix it later, make the filter earn it's keep.

How practical is it to strip a bike down for a major overhaul in a strange country?

[guzzisteve]

I guess none of the techs in the whole freekin world ever read the Tech Bulitans or MG website or give 2 sh^ts. No homework either.  Real glad I retired completely.

[oldbike54]

I say ride the sucker, enjoy your holiday and fix it later, make the filter earn it's keep.

How practical is it to strip a bike down for a major overhaul in a strange country?

 Roy , France is familiar to the OP , and the filter won't help in this case .

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

If you think you're going to get a Frenchmen to read Pete's excellent tutorial good luck.
Perhaps I'm wrong but I would wait until I got home where I can wait a month or two if I had to.

 Hell Roy , apparently even most mechanics whose primary language is English can't seem to read Pete's tutorial , or the tech bulletins as Guzzisteve laments .

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Hi Pete,

Not being of a technical mind, but having read the link, it sounds as if this is probably what is wrong with the bike.

Can I still use it or will I
a) Cause more damage
b) Run the risk of an engine seizure or other failure without warning ?

Thanks

Jerry

Sorry Jerry. Do NOT ride it. Don't even start it again if you can avoid it.

Will it risk seizure? Unlikely. Will it risk other serious damage? Absolutely.

Actually inspecting for damage is very quick and easy, it simply requires removal of a cambox which takes fifteen minutes. I did a video of me performing the task after another owner here was charged something stupid, (The figure quoted was $2,000US from memory?) for a supposed inspection and then was told his tappets were fine. They weren't but he's been shafted. The video is 13 minutes long and I wasn't rushing.

I can't link the video up here because I'm too computer stupid and I'm a long way from my desktop which is where I can sometimes, by blind luck, embed such stuff but I'll see if I can grab the link to the thread on the Gheto where it's posted up. There is mild profanity in some of the postings on the thread so don't look if you are of a tender disposition.

http://www.grisoghetto.com/t1987-roper-tech-tappet-inspection-on-flattie-8v

Pete

[pete roper]

Shamelessly pinched from someone else on the Ghetto. These are the worst ones I've ever seen! How the owner could ride the bike to this point is completely beyond me? Look at the shrapnel damage to the cambox!



Pete

[oldbike54]

 Ouch !

 Dusty

[beetle]

Yer tappets be jiggered. Aye, 'tis them foul tappets. Uh-hm. {gnaws on corn-cob pipe}

[pete roper]

It's hard to tell what you mean by "rattle".  Could it be "pinging" because of inferior gasoline?  Could it be valve clatter? Could it be a leaking exhaust joint?  My Norge seems to rattle a lot, so did my other 8 Moto Guzzi bikes over the years. Keep riding it and pay attention to the temperatures and noises.

Sorry iMac but this is really poor advice. What is the most important part of the engine? The oil pump. What is the only part of the entire lubrication circuit to recieve unfiltered oil? The oil pump.

If the tappets reach the point where the top end is rattling the wear is pretty well advanced. That means there may be all sorts of particulate matter circulating in the oil. When the engine is cold and the oil thick the filter itself may go into bypass allowing particulates to be passed through the main, big end and cam bearings.

Riding and hoping is NOT an option if serious damage is to be avoided or at least minimised. The machine needs to be rollerised ASAP, delaying the inevitable just increases the risk of comprehensive bearing and pump failure.

Pete

[Jerdo1]

Great response - thanks.

Bearing in mind that I'm a technotit, I have one question that has been bothering me.

Surely when they removed the top part of the engine for a cursory look they would have spotted if the tappets were worn / damaged as they are (are they not?) located at the top end of the block?.  They gave the 'top end' of the engine the all clear but said that the 'problem' was towards the bottom - that is why I assume, he suggested the oil pump.

The noise can best be described as a rattle / clatter - like when you leave a bunch of coins in a pocket and then stick them into the washing machine but it has been with the bike since purchased by my brother at 11000 miles (now 21000).  When my brother bought the bike it had full dealer service stamps and has just had the tappets replaced under warranty by MG.

I don't know if this changes anything or is the prognosis / advice the same ?

Jerry

[jim mac]

 you cant tell without removing the cam cradle and turning it upside down to see the tappet.  as Pete says it is not a long or difficult job, i managed it and am by no means a mechanic - best watch Pete's video and follow every instruction to the letter

any chance it is just a really rattly clutch - my Norge really does sound like spanners in a trash can - until you pull the clutch in.

[Wayne Orwig]

Great response - thanks.

Bearing in mind that I'm a technotit, I have one question that has been bothering me.

Surely when they removed the top part of the engine for a cursory look they would have spotted if the tappets were worn / damaged as they are (are they not?) located at the top end of the block?.  They gave the 'top end' of the engine the all clear but said that the 'problem' was towards the bottom - that is why I assume, he suggested the oil pump.

The noise can best be described as a rattle / clatter - like when you leave a bunch of coins in a pocket and then stick them into the washing machine but it has been with the bike since purchased by my brother at 11000 miles (now 21000).  When my brother bought the bike it had full dealer service stamps and has just had the tappets replaced under warranty by MG.

I don't know if this changes anything or is the prognosis / advice the same ?

What does " They gave the 'top end' of the engine the all clear" mean? Did they pulled both cam boxes and inspected the tappets? Very unlikely, because pretty much 100% of them are failing. I suspect them just looked at it with the valve cover off.

When mine started to eat a tappet, the clearance change was just measureable. Over the next month, the clearance got a little larger. What I didn't know, was that I was cold starting that thing twice a day to go to work. The oil filter goes into bypass on a cold start, and I was washing the crap through the engine. I ended up also damaging the rod big end bearings. Luckily, those are cheap and easy to replace, though the bike waited for 6 weeks for the parts. Unluckily the main bearing in the front of the block is NOT replaceable. If you damage that, it may be 'game over'. DON'T RIDE IT UNTIL YOU ARE 100% SURE YOU ARE NOT FAILING A TAPPET! GET THE DEALER TO TAKE PICTURES FOR YOU! No pictures, it wasn't done.

[pete roper]

The earlier top end work was almost certainly replacement of the original chilled cast iron tappets with the DLC ones, both were flat tappets. Both failed. Hence the change to rollers.

Only a few days ago I posted up a host of pics showing the differences between flat and roller tappets on the AF1 board.

Linky

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?323958-New-to-me-09-Stelvio!

In this thread somewhere I think.

Pete

[Jerdo1]

Thanks again - particularly to Pete and OMG for their advice given their experience of the problem.

I'm not going to get French Dealer to investigate as, from the replies, it suggests they don't really know what they're looking for. I also don't want issues with warranty of repairs given I'll only be here for the next six weeks or so.

'Looks like it'll be parked up for the remainder of my stay here and I'll have it looked at on my return to Blighty.

Thanks for the help

Jerry

PS. Given I'll have time on my hands - can anyone suggest how to sort out rusty spokes. The bike's wheels are in fine condition - but the spokes, particularly where they join the wheel, are badly rusted - front and back.  I assume it's a cold/wet Scottish problem and not something you guys on the other side of the pond suffer from - any advice would be handy. I don't want to have to take the wheels off to do this...

[pete roper]

(Sigh.) where are you? I'll be in the south of France in a couple of weeks. If you are close and have tools I can come and pull a cambox for you if you buy lunch!

[oldbike54]

(Sigh.) where are you? I'll be in the south of France in a couple of weeks. If you are close and have tools I can come and pull a cambox for you if you buy lunch!

 Jerry , a wise man once said , "never turn down an offer of true expert assistance" .

 Pete , that is a very generous offer 

 Dusty

[pete roper]

Depends if we are nearby, if he has tools and how good his sommelier is....

Pete

PS. Jude will kill me!

[beetle]

Yer a top bloke Roper. I don't care wot anyone sez.   

[smdl]

Yer a top bloke Roper. I don't care wot anyone sez.   

I can prove that based upon first-hand experience.   

Cheers,
 Shaun

[Nic in Western NYS]

Bleary-eyed I get up and read WG before coffee.  Did I just read that Pete from Oz is going to fix a lister's 8v in France?? 

Tales of SuperWrench
Flying across the seas
To fix the
Forlorn's Guzzis

[rodekyll]

That's a service call, right there!

[Dilliw]

(Sigh.) where are you? I'll be in the south of France in a couple of weeks. If you are close and have tools I can come and pull a cambox for you if you buy lunch!

Hey Pete, you think after you're done over there in wine country you could come over to the states and do your swing arm service on me Griso?  I'll buy you a hot dog and some good ol' American Budweiser... 

That's the greatest offer of help I've ever seen on a webboard by the way. 

[Wayne Orwig]

Hey Pete, you think after you're done over there in wine country you could come over to the states and do your swing arm service on me Griso?  I'll buy you a hot dog and some good ol' American Budweiser... 

I think he drinks Miller Light or some such skunk whiz.

[oldbike54]

 I know for a fact that Jude likes Margaritas , and if you offer Pete bud or miller he will most likely say things in Ozzie re your ancestry...
 
 Dusty