Author Topic: Bacon Slicer project  (Read 93772 times)

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #210 on: January 23, 2018, 10:07:03 PM »
I hope Si and I can make it back over for Vashon
Love to see this in person again after all the work you have put into it
nice job

Yeah! We'll trade off doing hot laps through town!     :bike-037:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #211 on: January 25, 2018, 04:36:55 AM »
Great thread SED! Really nice work you are doing, thanks for taking us along on your journey. It is always a learning experience to rebuild such a nice old bike! I want a bacon slicer of my own!
Keep up the good work!
-Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #212 on: February 04, 2018, 11:51:33 PM »
Putting a crankcase together must be the most important part of building a good engine, but no matter how I plan it, there are a million things I forgot...  Guess I'm still a rookie.     Next time I do this I will make sure every journal fits every bearing, then clean all the bearings before installing them in the case (a new bearing wrapped in plastic had swarf!  :tongue:). 

And this engine has the transmission inside it like an Austin Mini or something!  :rolleyes:  (believe it or not this is only my 2nd unit construction motorcycle - other was a BSA Victor)

Patrick Hayes' translation of the GTV manual has been a lifesaver!  Thank you Patrick!  :bow:

Install mainshaft into clutch hub through bearing. Don't forget spacer inside the bearing (flat side toward bearing).  Shop manual recommends using a pipe to support inner race, but I found that just tightening the nut pulled the hub into the bearing.  Once the nut is tight make sure the shaft is true. If not, the Italians recommend you beat on shaft with wooden mallet.





Key is to check endplay between mainshaft and driven gear.  Install driven gear onto shaft and measure to end of shaft and subtract 0.010" (0.2-0.3mm) and write down the distance.  Then install driven gear into right crankcase and then put the two halves together so that the mainshaft sticks through the driven gear as it will run in the bike. If the distance is 0.010" less than before the mainshaft is rubbing against the drive gear.  If less then you have enough clearance. 




The workshop manual recommends 0.2-1.0mm between the mainshaft and driven gear, but this one had at least 3mm! Too much distance means that the 4th gear dogs won't engage completely and that gear teeth won't be perfectly aligned. The solution is to make a new, thicker spacer between the bearing and driven gear.  Found that reducing the shaft to gear clearance also reduced the number of threads the sprocket locknut would engage (see 2nd pic above) so split the difference.

   


The sprocket spacer is installed flat side to bearing. The felt seal can be pushed back with a dental pick.

   
 

The shifting was off when I got the bike because the shifter shaft and cam (middle and lower in first pic) were not correctly engaged.  Install shifter shaft and align with marks in the case.

      


Then align right-side fork with the end of the cam cylinder and twist the left fork so it is parallel to the first.  Don't forget spacer on right side.  I needed to make sure the engagement was correct so joined the halves and installed the shifter ratchet. It took 2 tries, but I got it right.  One tooth off will cause the indicator line to be between the numbers.  A punch mark lined up with the keyway will help me make sure it's right on final assembly.

     


More to report, but getting late so gonna hit the hay.
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #213 on: February 05, 2018, 01:22:36 PM »
Thanks for the update.. fun stuff. I'm saving all this for when the Kid gets his 'slicer.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #213 on: February 05, 2018, 01:22:36 PM »

Offline Muzz

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #214 on: February 05, 2018, 02:21:21 PM »
Thanks for the update.. fun stuff. I'm saving all this for when the Kid gets his 'slicer.

Looks like you may have to polish the rust off all your machines Chuck! :grin:

I'm impressed SED. Great thread thanks.
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #215 on: February 05, 2018, 10:53:17 PM »
The Guzzi has a roller bearing big-end but it's not at all like most roller cranks.  Instead of a multi-piece crank, the Guzzi has a one-piece crank with a 2-piece connecting rod.  The rod and cap are precision machined to serve as the outer race. 

Clamp rod in vice and coat with thick oil. Insert clean rollers.  COUNT THEM!  33 x 3mm rollers are stock. This one has been been over-bored to take 29 x 3.5mm rollers. When the rod is full, lay crank journal in the rod, add more sticky oil and the rest of the rollers. Snug up the cap bolts and roll the crank to align rollers. The manual says to tap and twist the rod until the crank rolls smoothly. Then tighten rod bolts to 28 foot pounds (do not reuse rod bolts). Then use a punch to stake the nuts to the rod bolts (missed the photo).  Note- next time I will use loctite - the nuts and bolts were so hard that it was difficult to stake them.

            


Insert crank in right crankcase and install roller bearing.

   



Install felt seal and shield into the left crankcase.  Install shafts into left crankcase - cluster gear (with shim on each end), shifter shaft (line up with marks in crankcase), shift fork cylinder (with shim on upper end) and 2 sliding gears.   

 



New (NEW!$$$) cluster and sliding gears and new bearings.  Drizzle with assembly lube.




Thin smear of sealer on the case ready to join.  It takes patience to align the shafts and roller bearing when joining the cases.

 



Patrick Hayes points out that this engine has no dowel pins so recommends joining the crankcase halves then bolting up the cylinder to align them before tightening the two halves.  I didn't think to do that, but the alignment is very good.

All buttoned up! The crank rolls so smoothly  :afro:

   

« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 08:20:19 PM by SED »
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #216 on: February 06, 2018, 12:34:29 AM »
 :bow:
Looks super good! :popcorn:

Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline Rhodan

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #217 on: February 11, 2018, 11:44:26 AM »

...Insert clean rollers.  COUNT THEM!  33 x 3mm rollers ...
  Voice of experience?   :laugh:  Enjoying this thread tremendously.

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #218 on: February 11, 2018, 10:10:36 PM »
  Voice of experience?   :laugh:  Enjoying this thread tremendously.
:embarrassed:  And rod bolt torque is 28 foot pounds - easier to achieve before you bolt the crankcase together.  :rolleyes:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #219 on: February 11, 2018, 10:57:13 PM »
Local machine shop didn't have the metric reamers to do the valve work so bought 10mm and 11mm reamers from Cylinder Head Supply. 

Found a valve guide with the required 17.5mm OD in a box of parts that would work for the exhaust guide.  Upper end was a little tall so milled it off in lathe.   


   

The guide had a 9.5mm bore which needed to be opened up to 11mm. Got it to 10mm with the new intake reamer but the 11mm reamer would not fit in the bore.  Modified a 27/64" (10.7mm) drill bit to work as a reamer.  Chucked bit in late and centered guide between the bit and tailstock and the 11mm reamer fit fine.

Guide in head but ugly crack in the thinnest part of the shoulder.   :undecided:   Probably will be fine.  :bike-037:

 
 


Reamed to fit.




Amazingly the exhaust guide was still concentric with the valve seat, but the intake was not.  Don't know why.  Intake needs some serious lapping in.


 


Time to accelerate the process... 

   

Even took a little video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuKg-2ES8qg






Ready to paint!  Wash with Ospho and Simple Green, dry, mask and a little BBQ black.

        
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Tusayan

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #220 on: February 13, 2018, 02:14:55 PM »
The Guzzi has a roller bearing big-end but it's not at all like most roller cranks.  Instead of a multi-piece crank, the Guzzi has a one-piece crank with a 2-piece connecting rod.  The rod and cap are precision machined to serve as the outer race. 

Clamp rod in vice and coat with thick oil. Insert clean rollers.  COUNT THEM!  33 x 3mm rollers are stock. This one has been been over-bored to take 29 x 3.5mm rollers. When the rod is full, lay crank journal in the rod, add more sticky oil and the rest of the rollers. Snug up the cap bolts and roll the crank to align rollers. The manual says to tap and twist the rod until the crank rolls smoothly. Then tighten rod bolts to 28 foot pounds (do not reuse rod bolts). Then use a punch to stake the nuts to the rod bolts (missed the photo).

At about 7:20 in this video, you can see how it was done at the factory in 1956  :grin:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpCyUebmU8A

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #221 on: February 13, 2018, 04:32:26 PM »
When I was originally doing the Lario rehab.. I asked the Kid what to use as a degreaser. He said this stuff. "You can paint over it."



I was amazed that there was a water soluble solvent that you could do this.. but he was a pro painter in another lifetime. I spritzed it on, blasted it off with an engine cleaning gun and water.. and painted the engine, transmission, swing arm, rear drive.
It's still perfect.. 4 years (from memory) later. I'd recommend it to your attention.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #222 on: February 13, 2018, 08:34:29 PM »
Great video Tusayan!   My wife speaks conversational Italian so maybe she'd like to translate.   :grin:

(BTW she can't really translate the shop manual because technical Italian makes no sense to her because words take on different meanings.  Albero is "tree" except in an engine when it is a "shaft".   A "game" 0.3mm is the exhaust valve play.   So sometimes she can tell me what it says and I can tell her what it means.  But mostly it interests me way more than her.  :tongue:)

Chuck, thanks for the Super Clean tip.  I'd never heard of it, but they sell it at NAPA here!
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #223 on: February 13, 2018, 09:08:14 PM »
Time to assemble the piston and cylinder!

Piston is nearly new and stock 88mm bore!  (Number right below the divot made by something sucked down the carb  :rolleyes:)  The cylinder has been resleeved.


 

A last look into the clean crankcase.  It was totally black when opened up.


 


Clean piston and rings, with some assembly lube for the wrist pin bushing. Heating the piston with a hair dryer makes it much easier to slide the pin.


 


Install cylinder head studs.  Didn't remove them from piston because they are being reused. They are already bedded in so the cylinder doesn't need honing, just scrub it with a scotchbrite pad to give a little crosshatch. Make a base gasket and add a thin smear of gasket goo.


 


Space 3 upper (front???) ring gaps 120 degrees and add a little engine oil to the rings and skirt.  Slide on the cylinder compressing each ring with finger tips as you go.  There are 4 rings, but because the studs carry the weight of the cylinder it is the easiest one I've done.  Finally bolt on head to hold cylinder on the base gasket securely.  This is getting fun!



1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #224 on: February 14, 2018, 12:46:45 AM »
 :popcorn:
Great progress! Can't wait to see it running :grin:
-Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #225 on: February 14, 2018, 07:06:15 AM »
We need a video of it walking across the garage floor.  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #226 on: February 15, 2018, 10:29:54 PM »
We need a video of it walking across the garage floor.  :smiley:

Ha!  I'll just wrap a rope around the flywheel and pull!   :evil:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #227 on: February 15, 2018, 10:39:41 PM »
Head all ready to reassemble....




but how the heck do you compress these springs???  I've tried vice, pliers, a big wrenches, levers, more vices  :boozing:
(I'd have a chance with the old springs in the background but the new ones will take off a finger!!!)




Gotta do some research.  Probably need to make a tool... :smiley:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #228 on: February 15, 2018, 11:24:09 PM »
Head all ready to reassemble....




but how the heck do you compress these springs???  I've tried vice, pliers, a big wrenches, levers, more vices  :boozing:
(I'd have a chance with the old springs in the background but the new ones will take off a finger!!!)




Gotta do some research.  Probably need to make a tool... :smiley:

How about making a tool with a pin that goes through the coil of the spring and then clamp down on the top and bottom? The pin would keep it from sliding away and turning into a Jesus spring.




I made a very quick paint sketch of the idea.

-Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #229 on: February 15, 2018, 11:47:57 PM »
That looks like the thing Rick! 

Was also looking at this, but not sure how it keeps the spring from flying.  I like the pin through the coil that you suggest. 


1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Muzz

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #230 on: February 16, 2018, 05:05:16 AM »
I remember doing the old AJS/Matchy hair springs by hand; HOW I did it I cant remember. :embarrassed:

Once I got the knack of the first one the rest wern't too bad. There was a progression that had to be followed.

Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

Offline jas67

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #231 on: February 16, 2018, 05:14:45 AM »
When I was originally doing the Lario rehab.. I asked the Kid what to use as a degreaser. He said this stuff. "You can paint over it."



I was amazed that there was a water soluble solvent that you could do this.. but he was a pro painter in another lifetime. I spritzed it on, blasted it off with an engine cleaning gun and water.. and painted the engine, transmission, swing arm, rear drive.
It's still perfect.. 4 years (from memory) later. I'd recommend it to your attention.

Your image doesn't show up for me.   What product is this?
2017 V7III Special
1977 Le Mans
1974 Eldorado
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2013 Ducati Monster 796, 2013 848 Evo Corse SE, 1974 750GT, 1970 Mk3d 450 Desmo, 1966 Monza 250
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #232 on: February 16, 2018, 08:24:10 AM »
but how the heck do you compress these springs???  I've tried vice, pliers, a big wrenches, levers, more vices  :boozing:

Back when I did a customer's Falcone, I made a tool out of a flat washers and two pieces of flat steel welded to it. Used with a big "C-clamp". I still have it and will dig it out when I get out to the shop.

Your image doesn't show up for me.   What product is this?

Super Clean https://superclean.com/
Charlie

Offline JukeboxGothic

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #233 on: February 16, 2018, 04:30:15 PM »
I have hairpin springs on my Velocette and use a conventional spring compressor that I have owned for years. Heres one at Grove that will do the job but you should be able to get something closer to home.   http://www.groveclassicmotorcycles.co.uk/ps178-valve-spring-compressor-tool-1640-p.asp
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Offline Muzz

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #234 on: February 16, 2018, 04:41:53 PM »
Musillating on this, I think I engaged the two bottom forks, and then by levering the coil up I was able to get the bent part of the spring over the valve and engage it in the "collet" (which was a grooved flat plate.

Someone recently asked why they used hair springs. They have the advantage of not coil binding. Big plus as cam lifts got higher. Also meant you could have a shorter valve and lower rocker covers. Don't know about relative efficiency. To me a normal poppet valve could take higher revs but I am just guessing.
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #235 on: February 16, 2018, 08:10:44 PM »
Here's the tool I made for the job:



Charlie

Offline BikeMike

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #236 on: February 16, 2018, 10:28:01 PM »
Matchless heavyweight singles use a similar hairpin valve spring.  Here is an illustration of the hand tool.

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Offline BikeMike

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #237 on: February 16, 2018, 10:39:25 PM »
Or this one that bolts on the head.  I made one from some 1/4" plate.




-Mike
1974 Eldorado
1975 850T Interceptor
1976 V1000 Convert Police
1949 Matchless G3L

Offline Muzz

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #238 on: February 17, 2018, 12:38:49 AM »
Matchless heavyweight singles use a similar hairpin valve spring.  Here is an illustration of the hand tool.



I didn't have the tool but I guess my levering did the same thing.

I see Mike you have a '49 G3L. Mine started off life as a "48 G3L, the last of the old wartime design rigids. Did many miles on that bike, which got altered as things wore out. The bike actually went extremely well and would drag the 500 single in both acceleration and top speed. Always good for a laugh. :thumb:
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:16:34 AM by Muzz »
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

Offline BikeMike

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #239 on: February 17, 2018, 10:23:15 AM »
Hi Muzz,

I think Sed is on the right track with the sketch.   The hand tool works well but as I recall there is definitely a knack to it as you have to hook the top the valve spring under the retainer and then fold the spring to place the legs into their sockets.

My old G3L is a rigid too.  A good old bike and a lot of fun or will be once I get her back on the road  :thumb:

Nice work Sed!  I look forward to seeing your posts :bow:
1974 Eldorado
1975 850T Interceptor
1976 V1000 Convert Police
1949 Matchless G3L

 

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