Wildguzzi.com
General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: Testarossa on June 10, 2018, 02:41:08 PM
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I finally have the time to begin my third rebuild of this grande dame.
As some of you know, I put Gilardonis on her about 8 years ago and she was running great. Then we got knocked down by an SUV, at low speed, on the way home from Ouray in 2013 (thanks, Lannis, for the escort home). New front end etc.
(https://i.ibb.co/d5zZ0dC/2upcropped.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5zZ0dC)
photo hosting sites (https://imgbb.com/)
Then in 2015 the Boulder flood, and she drowned.
(https://i.ibb.co/7vPbsgz/Flooded1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7vPbsgz)
I did a pretty good rebuild including the gearbox and timing box but didn't pull the crank. 2000 miles later I had wrecked bearings and a broken piston ring. I don't know how much of the bearing damage is from the flood and how much from running the chrome cylinders for years. So last year I pulled everything out and sent the crank out to be turned. I now have all new bearings, seals, pistons/cylinders, oil pump etc. We'll see how quickly this comes together -- meanwhile I have three working bikes to ride.
First step is cleaning the cases. For $15 I bought a blasting gun and 20 pounds of baking soda, and for $5 repaired my 5hp 20gal air compressor. Used about 15 pounds of soda at 90psi. Here's the preliminary result -- the engine case looks nice but the sump, timing case cover and gearbox need more scrubbing.
(https://thumb.ibb.co/nbeWSo/Rebuild_Clean4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nbeWSo)
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Try soaking the dirty castings with a good quality mag wheel cleaner followed by a high pressure car wash blast, dry it off and then give it another soda blast, that usually works for me.
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How about an update?
Poor baby's been through a lot! Hope she's all back together now and on the road?
What's it look like now?
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Good timing. Friday was my last day skiing so I got up early this morning and pulled out all the bits and pieces I've collected for the T. Washed the crankcase and blew out the oil passages to make sure all the baking soda was gone. Plan is to get the crank and cam in this weekend.
First, I found this scoring from the timing chain. I'd forgotten about this, left over from the original rubber block tensioner. The Valtek tensioner fixed the problem.
(https://i.ibb.co/jb0pGxW/timingchainscoring.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jb0pGxW)
I bought a new oil pump. When I unwrapped the thing it only turned about a third of a revolution and bound up. So I took it apart, turned the gears against one another, reassembled and turned again, filled it with 20/50 and turned it again until it rotated freely, then took it apart and cleaned it thoroughly to get rid of any steel and aluminum bits that might have come adrift in the 'break-in' process. You can see in the picture how sharp edges from machining the steel gears might bind.
(https://i.ibb.co/8Mbh1RW/oilpump.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8Mbh1RW)
Pete Roper's excellent instructions on big block reassembly of course focus on an oil-filter model, and my T is pre-filter. It has this oil pick-up assembly obtruding into the sump, and it will get in the way of installing the rods. Because it's held in place by the oil pump mounting bolts coming through the front wall of the case, I'll put off installing pipe and pump until after the rods are torqued up. BTW I haven't found any mention of this order-of-assembly issue in any of the downloadable manuals on Bender's site.
(https://i.ibb.co/YL2HK8C/oilpipe.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YL2HK8C)
That's it. Running out for a tube of red Loctite and will button up the front main bearing and camshaft assembly tonight.
Oh, and I haven't been able to get the Woodruff key out of the old oil pump drive shaft. I'm guessing some judiciously applied heat might drop it out, and then I'll have to freeze the key and maybe heat the new shaft to get the key in.
I put the new front bearing (with the oil-feed dowel) in the freezer for a couple of hours and it dropped right into the case. Torqued the bolts to 22 ft-lb. Couldn't find a torque value for the three cam keeper nuts so I used 10 ft-lb. All Loctited.
Later: This is it for today.
(https://i.ibb.co/GcG4xVg/camin.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GcG4xVg)
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Glad she's going back together.
Since it's all apart like this, was there any thought of modifying to accept a filter?
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was there any thought of modifying to accept a filter?
I did think about it. I don't have the tools to do the necessary drilling in the case, but there are plenty of good used cases around. Filter-type sumps are rare because (as Charley explained to me) people neglect to unscrew the center bolts and inflict damage trying to pry them off, which of course damages them. That left the Outsider solution, which seems like a lot of money. Considering that this bike went 50,000 miles on 2,000-mile oil changes without significant wear (before the flood), I finally decided just to go back to stock. I opened the sump to inspect at 35,000 and 43,000 miles (when the Gilardonis went on) and everything was tight and clean -- even the pickup screen was clean.
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Gail has a dozen projects going and I'm the muscle, so I get to the T sporadically. Today I found an hour and got the freshly turned crank in, then torqued in the rear main bearing. I don't have the seal-installer tool so I steamed the bearing flange, froze the seal and tapped it in.
(https://i.ibb.co/TvyrDy7/crankin.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TvyrDy7)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBPYQrr/rearmain.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kBPYQrr)
Next step is to weigh the new piston bits, match them to the rods and get them installed.
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Have been loafing along, building planter beds for Gail and fussing with the new-to-me XR350R.
I got the conrod/piston assemblies balanced within a tenth of a gram. Didn't try to balance the crank but then the bike was smooth to begin with and should be better now. Then after ordering the wrong crankpin bearings I got everything copacetic and torqued in the conrods.
(https://i.ibb.co/LQJc1pS/conrodstorqued.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LQJc1pS)
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Lookin' good. Like those beam type torque wrenches.
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I was just about to install the new oil pump and button up the sump when Joe Walano offered to sell an oil-filter conversion kit, ostensibly for early Tontis with no machining needed. Made by Moto MS, a Guzzi/Ducati shop near Bregenz in Austria. Has anyone installed one of these?
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I was just about to install the new oil pump and button up the sump when Joe Walano offered to sell a oil-filter conversion kit, ostensibly for early Tontis with no machining needed. Made by Moto MS, a Guzzi/Ducati shop near Bregenz in Austria. Has anyone installed one of these?
Can you post a picture, I also have an oil pan with external filter but I've not seen one like it before..
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This one puts the filter inside the pan. The company is apparently defunct. I was looking for feedback from someone who has installed this.
Photo here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/898627433562137/permalink/2246065095485024/?sale_post_id=2246065095485024&ref=messenger_banner
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(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/61025498_10157248803748607_1657881204734558208_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_eui2=AeH69Z_j2tHpC5BXBPtpdn0Vh9sR1JTxcIBkr2hPRXxxj3mcGOHjs525tk8ZxxTWW993g2VWiOVqHDTnCbwmpP2251Rx5q8qWN61FZGePzDYGA&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=e445efd80d5fa55fff8ed095a261edbd&oe=5D8F2581)
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I decided just to go filter-less, as Lino intended. Installed the new pump only to find that the old pump was a loop-frame item with the half-moon woodruff key, and the new pump needs the newer rectangular key. So no timing chest work until the new key arrives. Will work on the gearbox instead. All that needs is a fresh selector spring, just to be safe.
(https://i.ibb.co/K9Jbccn/oilpipe1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9Jbccn)
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The new oil pump shaft is machined for the new-style rectangular Woodruff key, whereas the old one had a crescent key. The new key arrived today. It wasn't a drop-in fit because the keyway in the sprocket is narrower than the key. After a little filing and fiddling, it came together so I finally got the timing chain in. Here it is, ready for the rattle gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/qpNqRMZ/timingchainin.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qpNqRMZ)
Here we are, case closed. The thing now weighs 60 lb, and with the flywheel and clutch will weigh about 80 lb. That's too much for me to lift easily so the next step is to make a wooden cradle on the shop lift to hold the engine while flywheel/clutch, gearbox and frame are bolted on.
(https://i.ibb.co/y0wpFTy/caseclosed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y0wpFTy)
While waiting for the key I opened up the gearbox so as to replace the shifter spring and oil seals. All parts in hand so it ought to go quickly now.
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Reassembled the clutch using my homemade alignment tool. It slips over the clutch hub (which is off the gearbox) and lets me align the intermediate plate by hand.
(https://i.ibb.co/8z27xpm/clutch1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8z27xpm)
All torqued down. The torque specs are nowhere to be found in the published tables but the old-timers on this board have values if you search for them: 30 ft/lb for the six bolts into the crankshaft, 22 ft/lb for the eight bolts in the starter ring.
(https://i.ibb.co/QNG8HNf/clutch2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QNG8HNf)
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Got the gearbox back together. The motivation for opening it was simply to replace the shifter spring:
(https://i.ibb.co/brfNtRn/gearboxspring.jpg) (https://ibb.co/brfNtRn)
But while it was open I replaced the seals and o-rings, and looked for busted teeth and worn dogs and forks. No problems. Back together:
(https://i.ibb.co/gPL5DGv/gearboxassembled.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gPL5DGv)
Buttoned up, it shifts into all five gears. A bit notchy without oil in the case, but will smooth out as soon as everything gets wet.
(https://i.ibb.co/sWpkZ13/gearboxshifts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sWpkZ13)
Finally --
What are these? Found them inside the case after it sat idle a couple of years. They feel sort of rubbery. Congealed oil? Gremlin eggs?
(https://i.ibb.co/KN1Z0LP/whateggs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KN1Z0LP)
There will be a pause. I've been persuaded to swap out the Surflex clutch for SD-Tec (Stein Dinse) plates, and will install new clutch springs too.
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Another learning opportunity. Installed the Stein Dinse clutch and while I had the gearbox off I opened it again to double-check that I'd gotten the shims right, because I thought there were too many false neutrals in there. As it turned out I took 1.5mm of shims off the main shaft to get the length to 145mm and the shifting improved. Now I find that the speedo drive ball I bought from one of our favorite suppliers is 4.5mm instead of the regulation 4mm and of course it won't fit in the spline, so another day or two before I finally attach the frame.
Yes, I'm doing everything twice on this build, sometimes three times. I'm getting pretty good at reassembling the gearbox though.
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Now I find that the speedo drive ball I bought from one of our favorite suppliers is 4.5mm instead of the regulation 2mm and of course it won't fit in the spline, so another day or two before I finally attach the frame.
The original is 4 mm. When I need one ball, I usually just harvest it from a cheap, suitable, ball bearing.
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The original is 4 mm. When I need one ball, I usually just harvest it from a cheap, suitable, ball bearing.
Yup, 2mm way too small. That was in the vendor's catalog and they've fixed it and proper ball en route. No hope finding a 4mm ball within an hour's drive. Bad ball miked at 4.7mm.
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Everything buttoned up again. Another minor glitch: with the clutch pushrod in place, the outer body stuck out of the case by about 10mm. Obviously wrong. Couldn't be new clutch springs or thicker plates, because those issues would have the opposite effect, and I don't think it's possible to put the pressure plate hub in upside down. Eventually I popped the gearbox back off the engine and used the pushrod to clear out the original cylindrical rod seal that was stuck inside the shaft. It's 12mm long. Everything back together, the outer body rides 2mm below the edge of the case. Tested the clutch (photo) and it works perfectly.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q6y3tj1/clutchtest.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6y3tj1)
Dizzy first because it's easier to wrench without the right cylinder in the way.
(https://i.ibb.co/C6Qhjb4/Dizzy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6Qhjb4)
photo gallery online (https://imgbb.com/)
Now, Gilardonis and heads, oily box, then clean up the frame and drop it on.
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Real progress now. Frame on, cylinders and heads. 'Lectrics next.
(https://i.ibb.co/X3b8rpN/Head.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X3b8rpN)
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Slow but steady progress. Valve lash set, fork on and ready for front wheel and brake, rebuilt cardan mounted in new carrier bearing so the swingarm goes in next. Conceivably we could be running by the end of the week, maybe. I had hoped to be done for the BMW rally next weekend but probably not -- too much nonmoto stuff going on here.
Now off to Idaho and Montana for a few days. The last 10% takes 90% of the work. It's all details -- painting and polishing, adjusting, wiring. Maybe running by August 7?
(https://i.ibb.co/0csb8Tw/Details.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0csb8Tw)
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The old stainless exhaust pieces and Borrani wheels cleaned up nicely with soda-blasting. I replaced the original cush drive rubbers and made a brake shoe spreader from a $5 turnbuckle. It made replacing the rear brake shoes a five minute job.
(https://i.ibb.co/P9JF2GY/brakespreader.jpg)
Best part is that the tool took even less time to make.
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Inspired by yesterday's ride up Independence Pass (on the Mille SP), I dove into the T this morning. The rear brake plate wouldn't fit into the drum with the new shoes, so I put a sanding drum on the drill press and spent 20 minutes putting a new radius on the new shoes. Then put the foot controls back in, which required sawing an extraneous tab off the new left lower rail (nothing is ever as simple as it looks). Then popped the wheels on. And dropped on the tank and seat just to see what it will all look like. I'm very happy. The bike seems smaller than the Mille, though the frames are of course identical.
(https://i.ibb.co/XbXDqJM/Wheelson.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XbXDqJM)
Left to do is to bleed the front brake, finish the wiring, hang the exhaust, lube the cables (the throttle feels pretty sticky so I may have to dive into the carbs), screw on the windshield and mirrors, turn the engine over a dozen or so times to get some oil going thru the pump, mount the plugs, check the timing advance and do a few break-in rides.
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T rejoins the flock, after four years!
I finished the mechanicals. Turned the engine over by hand until oil flowed out the rocker feed pipes, then torqued the banjo bolts. Dropped the tank and saddle on, put in a couple of gallons of fuel with a dose of Sea Foam, let the float bowls fill, opened the richeners -- and she started on the first revolution! Idled quietly and smoothly. So I rode a couple of miles, up and down the hill and back.
Smoother than ever, and quiet. It feels lean and won't idle without the "choke" levers up, but that may really be a timing issue. I'll put the strobe on it in the morning. It handles just as I remember -- the sweetest thing. Looking at the photo I realize why it feels smaller and lighter than the Mille -- the Mille has longer head stock and fork legs, probably longer shocks and certainly a longer center stand.
Still need to wire in the relays for lights and horn, add mirrors and turn signals. And I have to dig out the title and get legal.
(https://i.ibb.co/25z3Nw6/Theresa.jpg) (https://ibb.co/25z3Nw6)
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:thumb: :thumb:
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Excellent! thanks for posting :thumb:
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Got plates on Friday. Timing issue related to the Dyna III rotor -- its scribed mark was retarded about 5 degrees. I pressed a new mark into the plastic head and we're good on the strobe. Now trying to trace a short in my self-inflicted wiring harness.
One thing to consider: If you torque the sump bolts and put the engine on a stand resting on the sump, the lump weighs about 80 lb with flywheel and clutch. If you then build the bike around it, the result is 500+ lb compressing the sump gasket. When the bike finally sits on its own wheels, the seam expands and you'll have an oil seep around the edge of the sump. Need to retorque the sump bolts. Cleaner to retorque BEFORE lowering the bike onto its wheels.
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Found the short in the wiring. I installed a Zadi-knockoff ignition switch. Three spade terminals of which I only use two, but when switched on the third spade is live. To insulate the whole assembly I slid on a tight-fitting length of bicycle inner tube. Of course the spare spade had a sharp-enough edge that it pierced the rubber and grounded on the switch housing. I put an insulated female spade connector on it.
I weighed the bike at 480 lb with oil but no fuel. Can't vouch for the accuracy of my scales. Book value is 465 dry, 562 full fuel. The 97 lb difference doesn't make sense because 5.5 US gallons of gasoline should weigh only 34 lb, and 5 qt of oil (split sump, gearbox, final drive) should weigh less than 9 lb. The only thing I can think of to explain the difference is that "dry" must not include a 55 lb Marelli car battery. My dry weight includes oil and a 16-lb Yuasa battery -- and the fairing and the LEO sidestand which is probably two pounds heavier than the original.
Did a 30-mile loop this morning. The bike is quieter and smoother than I remember, probably because I'm used to the Mille and Triumph. Still a little sorting to do. Plugs are whitish, both sides, so I'll raise the needles a notch. Throttle is just sticky enough to make clutchless upshifts unhappy. Need more clearance to get my boot toe easily between the shift lever and the new sidestand.
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Very well done getting her back on the road! :thumb:
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Everything copacetic. Still running a little lean. Carb needles were already elevated so I'm going up one jet size from the 140 now installed. A couple more heat cycles and I'll retorque the heads. This bike is so much more fun to ride than the Mille -- I think I may take it to the Ouray NAR.
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After half-a-dozen heat-cool cycles and 120 miles, I retorqued the heads -- they needed it. Installed 145 main jets and dropped the needle back to stock (middle) position. Replaced the throttle cables. Good clean burn now. Smoother than ever.
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Testarossa, what elevation are you running at with that jetting? Are the rest of your carb specs stock or have you had to fiddle with those as well? I’m at 3,300 ft and will need to figure where to start when I get my project to that point.
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I'm at 5600 feet, often ride at 9000 and occasionally 12000. I'm very close to stock settings but use very large free flowing foam pods -- dirt bike pods really. At sea level this would be too lean.
(https://i.ibb.co/z58gWzP/pods.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z58gWzP)
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Just a quick note after the Ouray NAR. The T ran well over about 400 miles, with elevations up to 12,000 feet. Maybe a little lean on the idle jet. This was the oldest, smallest and lightest of the dozen Geese on the ride, and kept up nicely with Alanp's 1200 Sport (he squirted away from me in full-throttle uphills but I caught up in the twisties).
This is my favorite bike!
(https://i.ibb.co/VJvGTLR/Ouray19-Pass.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VJvGTLR)
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Are you running Unifilters? Do you happen to know the part number to save me figuring out which one for my 850T?! I've used those with great success with various dual sport bikes.
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This one. About $20 each on Amazon.
Model UNI Two Stage Pod Filter
Item Weight 2.88 ounces
Item model number AD-234161
Manufacturer Part Number UP-4125ST
OEM Part Number 026150
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Perfect - thanks!