Author Topic: First time replacing wheel bearings  (Read 2760 times)

Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2022, 12:47:02 PM »
:thumb:  2RS sealed bearings would be a good choice for this application.

The rubber seals keep the water and other road debris out of the bearings with the penalty of slightly more drag than a metal seal or open bearing

Yeah, all three bearings had rubber seals, so I planned on going the 2RS route. One of the bearings was SKF, one was SNR, another Timken, and the 4th was too scratched, but assumed it was the same as the SKF (both were the same size and from the front wheel).

Not quite sure what you mean about the seals but why not use 2RS bearings as in 60042RS, a 63032RS and 62032RS so double sided rubber seals incorporated.

The wheels use 2RS bearings, but 3 of the sides (both front sides and one rear) also use wheel bearing seals outside of the bearing themselves. When replacing them, is there more to searching than simply measuring the inner and outer diameters?
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2022, 06:13:36 PM »
Small block V7 wheel seal measurements are as follows (measurements on seals were visible):


FRONT:
  • 26mm ID X 42mm OD X 7mm thickness (x2)

REAR:
  • 25mm ID X 40mm OD X 7mm thickness

I wasn’t sure if there was a certain type to get beyond the measurements. I ended up ordering All Balls seals through Walmart—nobody from All Balls responded to my query the past few days so I just sought them elsewhere.

BTW, I tried to get bearings from the local NAPA and Federated Auto Parts, and decided to buy online after they both quoted $40+ for just one of the bearings.
and ordered everything today:
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

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Offline lucky phil

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2022, 06:41:36 PM »
Yeah, all three bearings had rubber seals, so I planned on going the 2RS route. One of the bearings was SKF, one was SNR, another Timken, and the 4th was too scratched, but assumed it was the same as the SKF (both were the same size and from the front wheel).

The wheels use 2RS bearings, but 3 of the sides (both front sides and one rear) also use wheel bearing seals outside of the bearing themselves. When replacing them, is there more to searching than simply measuring the inner and outer diameters?

Ok, any images of these additional seals? Not something I'm familiar with. They aren't old bearing seals that have dislodged and been left there are they? Basically you just want the type of bearing (IE single row deep groove ball for example) the OD, ID and width. Then it's the seal type/s if any and the internal clearance if it's a bit of a special case.

Ciao   
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 06:49:28 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2022, 06:49:20 PM »
Ok, any images of these additional seals? Not something I'm familiar with. They aren't old bearing seals that have dislodged and been left there are they? Basically you just want the type of bearing (IE deep groove ball for example) the OD, ID and width. Then it's the seal type/s if any and the internal clearance if it's a bit of a special case.

From what I’ve been reading, and from Delboy’s and Ari’s how-to videos, these wheel seals (oil seal? hub seal? Known by another, more popular term, perhaps?) are pretty common on motos and other automotives.



« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 06:51:46 PM by Dirk_S »
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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2022, 06:49:20 PM »

Offline lucky phil

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2022, 07:03:15 PM »
From what I’ve been reading, and from Delboy’s and Ari’s how-to videos, these wheel seals (oil seal? hub seal? Known by another, more popular term, perhaps?) are pretty common on motos and other automotives.




Ok they look like a SC type seal for rotary shafts, They should have some numbers on them which will take a glass to see probably. I'm not sure of the std V7 setup but I'd be surprised if they used an open bearing and a separate pressed in seal on the hubs. Others here have greater knowledge on the V7 then I. 
Some general info.

https://sealingaustralia.com.au/rotary-shaft-seals/

Ciao

« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 07:06:07 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2022, 07:44:31 PM »

      Yep, real common to all motorcycle mfgrs. 26 X 42 X8 mm lip seal. (the ones pictured) available online, at your local bearing dealer or your local Honda,Yamaha or Kawasaki dealer.

    Paul B :boozing:
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2022, 07:48:18 PM »
      Yep, real common to all motorcycle mfgrs. 26 X 42 X8 mm lip seal. (the ones pictured) available online, at your local bearing dealer or your local Honda,Yamaha or Kawasaki dealer.

    Paul B :boozing:

For wheel bearings? All the wheel bearings I've experienced going back to the early 70's rely on the integral 2RS seal or the equivalent. I've not seen a separate shaft seal on a wheel bearing. Willing to be corrected and educated.
Ciao
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Offline n3303j

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2022, 08:25:40 PM »
For wheel bearings? All the wheel bearings I've experienced going back to the early 70's rely on the integral 2RS seal or the equivalent. I've not seen a separate shaft seal on a wheel bearing. Willing to be corrected and educated.
Ciao
Just found a parts diagram for the 2016 V7ii and it does indeed show both bearings and seals outboard of the bearings. Whether or not the bearings are sealed is not specified in the part diagram.
GU92204221 is front bearing and crosses to a lot of Guzzis including my T3. On the T3 these bearings are 2RS sealed. Diagram shows seals over the bearings. They are part GU90402642 and they only seem to appear on V series wheels.
Rear is a similar setup with bearings inboard and seals outboard.

I do know if you ride in the slop it will get past 2RS bearing seals. A second set of seals with a bit of grease packed behind them (to lubricate the seal) will probably guarantee you zero maintenance lifetime wheel bearings.
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2022, 08:28:08 PM »
      Most are exclusionary seals that press in outside the bearing. The  spacer between the fork and bearing seals to the inside of the lip seal to keep out the water and dirt. Most seals installed in the bearings themselves are only to keep the grease in.

      Paul B  :boozing:
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2022, 01:43:25 AM »
      Most are exclusionary seals that press in outside the bearing. The  spacer between the fork and bearing seals to the inside of the lip seal to keep out the water and dirt. Most seals installed in the bearings themselves are only to keep the grease in.

      Paul B  :boozing:
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2022, 04:10:40 AM »
      Most are exclusionary seals that press in outside the bearing. The  spacer between the fork and bearing seals to the inside of the lip seal to keep out the water and dirt. Most seals installed in the bearings themselves are only to keep the grease in.

      Paul B  :boozing:
Well not really. Here's what the Koyo manual says on "dirt resistance". The ZZ non contacted shielded deep groove ball, Good. Non contact 2RU better than the ZZ. 2RS, ( probably the most common seal type) better than 2RU. The 2RK type, is rated as "excellent" as is the 2RD,excellent. If you also want "excellent" for water resistance as well as dirt resistance then the 2RK and 2RD are the ones to go for. The 2RU is rated as "good" for water resistance. So integral bearing seals are much more than simple grease retainers. A 2RS bearing is the most common wheel bearing I have seen without an additional seal and I've commonly seen 1RS wheel bearings where the non sealed side is facing inside the hub which I think is less than optimal but what some manufacturers have gone with OEM.

Ciao     
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 04:14:04 AM by lucky phil »
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Offline RinkRat II

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2022, 09:19:50 AM »

     Awww C'mon, those guys in marketing will tell you anything  to sell a bearing or two! :evil:

     Paul B :boozing:
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Offline Motormike

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2022, 07:35:54 PM »
Many years ago, I saw a unique (as least to me) technique where the wheel bearing was cooled in a cup of dry ice.   The dry ice made the bearing so cold, (and no condensation to worry about) the installer was able to seat the bearing into place with his (gloved) fingers.  I've always wanted to try it, but dry ice isn't readily available where I live.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 07:36:41 PM by Motormike »

Offline n3303j

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2022, 07:38:40 PM »
Many years ago, I saw a unique (as least to me) technique where the wheel bearing was cooled in a cup of dry ice.   The dry ice made the bearing so cold, (and no condensation to worry about) the installer was able to seat the bearing into place with his (gloved) fingers.  I've always wanted to try it, but dry ice isn't readily available where I live.
Torch on the hub and dry ice on the bearing and it just falls in. Did that often in the machine shop.
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2022, 08:51:23 PM »
On the T3 these bearings are 2RS sealed. Diagram shows seals over the bearings. They are part GU90402642 and they only seem to appear on V series wheels.


 :thumb:
Thanks for that, I have never seen those bearing carriers with seals fitted, wish I had or thought of it myself 40 years ago .
I’ve been through an awful lot of front wheel bearings in that time, using it as an “adventure bike” in modern speak. Of course, every mx or enduro bike has seals outside of 2rs bearings.
Probably no value to anyone who never leaves the blacktop but definitely worth the unsprung weight penalty if you do.
Added bonus is they hold wheel spacer lightly captive when refitting wheel too.
Good on Guzzi for fitting them to modern V7, that proves it’s not just accountants that run the show.
I  hope the V85 TT  wheels have them too , good test of design intention.and thinking of longevity over cost.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2022, 07:54:42 PM by jacksonracingcomau »

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2022, 08:41:03 AM »
We used dry ice a lot in the aircraft shop. The local Safeway grocery store usually had it in stock. Also a heat gun or torch on the housing. When a bearing had an interference fit on a shaft, thrust bearing on a crank, we heated it in hot oil.
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2022, 08:13:18 PM »
Here’s a fun roadblock: pretty sure the new bearing is seated, and I’m ready to pull out the old bearing that I used as a punch… but I’m having a bit of a hard time getting that old bearing out. I tried heating the hub and cooling the bearing with canned air. The screwdriver just ain’t digging in deep enough between the two bearings, and I’m afraid to really push in for fear of goofing up the new bearing’s inner race.it’s pretty flush, so I don’t think I have it jammed; it’s just super tight.

Thoughts?



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Offline n3303j

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2022, 08:14:47 PM »
Borrow the free blind bearing puller from NAPA.
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2022, 08:26:01 PM »
Borrow the free blind bearing puller from NAPA.

I considered this, Ron, but was curious if it might damage the new one that’s already seated.
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Offline n3303j

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2022, 08:27:24 PM »
Set it so that it only grips the inner race of the old bearing.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2022, 08:36:56 PM »
Buy quality American made. Don't buy cheap China bearings.

And do not side load as others said.
This is what happened when I put Chinese bearings (All Balls) in my Griso
The bearing seized and rotated on the shaft, I had a heck of a job extracting the axle.
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Offline Scout63

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2022, 09:42:46 PM »
Here’s a fun roadblock: pretty sure the new bearing is seated, and I’m ready to pull out the old bearing that I used as a punch… but I’m having a bit of a hard time getting that old bearing out. I tried heating the hub and cooling the bearing with canned air. The screwdriver just ain’t digging in deep enough between the two bearings, and I’m afraid to really push in for fear of goofing up the new bearing’s inner race.it’s pretty flush, so I don’t think I have it jammed; it’s just super tight.

Thoughts?





+1 on the blind bearing puller. A great excuse to invest in one.  I would flip the hub upside down on a very well padded bench vice and pull the slide hammer downwards.  For driving in the bearings a large socket just a bit smaller than the outer race edges works well.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA

Offline tris

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2022, 05:47:35 AM »
Here’s a fun roadblock: pretty sure the new bearing is seated, and I’m ready to pull out the old bearing that I used as a punch… but I’m having a bit of a hard time getting that old bearing out. I tried heating the hub and cooling the bearing with canned air. The screwdriver just ain’t digging in deep enough between the two bearings, and I’m afraid to really push in for fear of goofing up the new bearing’s inner race.it’s pretty flush, so I don’t think I have it jammed; it’s just super tight.
Thoughts?

The learning point here is to grind the outer ring of the old bearing you're using to push the new one in so it clears the recess - I did similar to you but was able to get it back out 

If you're lucky you might be able to get the edge of the old bearing from the opposite side with a long bar and drift it out. Just go left/right/up/down to make sure it comes out square

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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2022, 06:52:45 PM »
This is what happened when I put Chinese bearings (All Balls) in my Griso
The bearing seized and rotated on the shaft, I had a heck of a job extracting the axle.


Oh jeez. I thought All Balls was quality. I mean, they’re out of Pennsylvania, so I could only assume as much (home bias withstanding).

The learning point here is to grind the outer ring of the old bearing you're using to push the new one in so it clears the recess

Yep x 5. Grease might’ve been helpful, too. Next attempts will certainly get the grinding.

Borrow the free blind bearing puller from NAPA.
I asked the dudes at the local NAPA store:

“We don’t offer that kind of service here.”

O’Reilly’s had none. Went to AutoZone, and they have a blind bearing puller available for rent, but the edges were pretty knackered. So, the frugality caves in, and I purchased a blind hole bearing remover online.

Lots of great comments in this thread. Thanks again.
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2022, 12:36:14 PM »
Was able to get the old bearing out pretty easily with the blind bearing puller.

Next and hopefully one of the last questions—

The rear wheels bearings seat against the inner spacer to the point that the spacer is snug. However, the front wheel’s inner spacer is still pretty loose. I can’t recall if it was loose before pulling the old bearings—can that be possible, or is it unheard of for an inner spacer to be fairly loose. Each side has a wall that the bearing stops at, and I THINK I tapped the bearings all the way against.
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Offline n3303j

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2022, 12:46:20 PM »
Bearings MUST be snug against inner spacer BEFORE they bottom out on outer shoulder. Otherwise when you tighten the axle you will preload the bearings in a thrust direction. They are not designed for thrust loads and will rapidly self destruct.

In an ideal situation (Ural Wheel) the inner spacer and outer shoulder are identical width. The axle clamps the inner races to the inner spacer and the threaded ring clamps the bearings in the hub. Everything stays in alignment.

Moto Guzzi clamps the inner races on the axle and floats the outer races in the hub so they self align.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2022, 12:47:32 PM by n3303j »
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Offline Dirk_S

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2022, 01:04:55 PM »
I figured, however I thought I had given more than enough taps. Went back and used a small punch along the outer race of each, and now have a snug seating between bearings and spacer. Thanks for the push!
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2022, 04:04:44 PM »
Bearings MUST be snug against inner spacer BEFORE they bottom out on outer shoulder. Otherwise when you tighten the axle you will preload the bearings in a thrust direction. They are not designed for thrust loads and will rapidly self destruct.

In an ideal situation (Ural Wheel) the inner spacer and outer shoulder are identical width. The axle clamps the inner races to the inner spacer and the threaded ring clamps the bearings in the hub. Everything stays in alignment.

Moto Guzzi clamps the inner races on the axle and floats the outer races in the hub so they self align.

Absolutely correct on all points. Very common on many bikes I've worked on over the years that the spacer is too short and the axle clamping loads cause premature bearing failure. First thing I check when replacing wheel bearings, the spacer length.

Ciao
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Offline Scout63

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Re: First time replacing wheel bearings
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2022, 05:48:25 PM »
I figured, however I thought I had given more than enough taps. Went back and used a small punch along the outer race of each, and now have a snug seating between bearings and spacer. Thanks for the push!

Sounds like you’re gaining on it Dirk. When the bearing is fully seated the tone will be different when driving it (the bearing into the hub, not down the road). 
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA

 

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