Clutch replacement questions, Quota, V11

[pehayes]

Ok, a bit more oddness.  I added transmission oil to get back up to the weep hole.

Please clarify.  When you added this oil was the bike resting on the sidestand or was someone (something) supporting the bike square and vertical.  I believe the inspection/level hole is intended for when the bike is vertical and square.  Does your bike have a centerstand?

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[usedtobefast]

Thanks for the pic and insight!

For getting the oil back up to proper level ...

I added ~25cc of oil with the bike on the sidestand.  Then waited 15 minutes.  Then with the front and rear tires on the garage floor, me standing on the right side, I pulled the bike off the side stand and got the bike square and vertical.  Held it there about 1 minute, no oil weeped out the level check hole.  Then I leaned it further to the right to see if I was almost there.  No oil weeped out.

So put the bike back on the sidestand, and added another ~25cc of oil, and waited another 15 minutes, and repeated those steps.  This time the oil was right at the weep hole level (I leaned it a wee bit to the right, and the oil was right there at the weep hole). 

I didn't want to use the front wheel stand as that lifts the front ~2-3", and didn't want to use the centerstand as that lifts the rear, so I was checking with front and rear tires on the garage floor.

From your picture, maybe my transmission input seal is really messed up and leaking from the bottom of that seal, seems that would be below the level.  But that new seal went in nicely, felt I did a good job on it, no damage during install, so not sure how I've messed this up.

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

Here's the diagram:





#6 o-ring can be pushed over the splines and fits nicely in the grove right behind the splines on the input shaft.  Kind of like a notch on the shaft made for it.

#4 was the mystery o-ring for me.  I couldn't find anywhere it would come to rest.  So I placed it on the input shaft splines, then pushed the clutch gear hub into place, hoping that pushed this o-ring back and into the proper place.

The other mystery, I did not have washer #7.  My Quota had 20,000 miles when I bought it, and it was obvious no one had the motor off the transmission before.  So I didn't really want to add #7 if it had never been there before. 

Guessing maybe this is where I messed up and now have a transmission oil leak.  Will probably pull it apart in the next week or two to see. 

GG - let me know if yours has washer #7! 

Or Patrick - do you know if the metal washer #7 is supposed to be there?  Should I add it if it was not there before? 

Thanks

Usedtobefast, what do I need to remove to access this? The rear of the gearbox? Home for the next few days and gonna wrench on the Quota!

[pehayes]

When I took mine apart, I couldn't find #4.  Eventually discovered it was resting inside the 45 degree chamfer at the inboard end of the input hub gear body.  #6 was laying in the shaft groove as intended.  I installed the same as you.

Look carefully at the dimensions of the #7 oil washer.  Only half a mm thick, so it is is a lot more like a thin shim than a washer.  Also, look at its Inside Diameter.  Much larger ID than the OD of either of the two o-rings.  I think the pictorial sequence or orientation in the parts explosion is bogus.  I think that 'shim' washer passes over all of the o-rings and rests against the front face of the input bearing which is pressed into the transmission casting from the inside.  Oil 'stiction' keeps that washer from coming out when you remove the other forward parts.  You'd have to prise very carefully with a hook tool to pull it out.  Likely you can just slide it around a little bit with a pick to confirm it is there.  It will get squeezed between the input spline body and the front face of the bearing when you tighten down the input shaft nut.

You installed #4 and then used the input hub to push it home into position.  Was #4 resting outboard or inboard of #6 when you slid it with the gear?  Maybe you dragged one o-ring over the other which might have caused a bind and tear?  After #6 is in its groove, I think you should add #4 and probe it over and around to rest behind or inboard of #6. Then, pushing it home with the spline hub will just push it up against the face of #7 and the bearing.

All of this from the front end of the transmission, but the transmission has to be out on the bench.  Sorry.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[usedtobefast]

Thanks for the thoughts/tips/advice!  With Shelter in Place until 5/3 now, what the heck, pull the Quota apart again. 

[usedtobefast]

Ok, motor out again. 

And my problem?  The clutch hub (bolted to the transmission input shaft) was finger tight!!  Ahh!!   

And the oil would just pool up inside that hub.  Wipe it, wait a few minutes, oil dribbling out.  No oil on the pushrod, it was dry. 

When I bolted this on in Round 1, I used my impact wrench to do it, not knowing what torque that might be.  Answer is, not much! 

The 4 prong tool I got from MGCycles says to use an impact wrench.  Seems that helps prevent breaking a prong off.  But I ignored that this round.

So I tapped the lock washer prongs flat.  Put my homemade clutch hub holder tool on, put the 4 prong "socket" tool on my torque wrench, carefully held the 4 prong socket against the hub and got it to 90 nm.

Cleaned things up, no oil dribble.  Came back an hour later, no oil dribble.

So ... do I pull my clutch apart again and clean any oil off of the new plates (that have ~40 miles on them at this point)?   Lazy me says leave it alone.  Maybe with some coffee tomorrow morning I'll feel like doing that! 

[pehayes]

So I tapped the lock washer prongs flat.  Put my homemade clutch hub holder tool on, put the 4 prong "socket" tool on my torque wrench, carefully held the 4 prong socket against the hub and got it to 90 nm.

You're  only half way there.  Does your torque wrench have both metric and SAE torque readings?  90nm converts to 66ft-lb.  The specification for input shaft and output shaft is 115-129 ft-lb.  You need to develop a LOT more torque to finish this job.  Like 160 nm.

So, your clutch hub was loose.  Did you fully remove it to inspect the seal surface?  Inspect the two o-rings?

Should  you disassemble the clutch and inspect/clean the plates?  Your option.  In theory, any oil that might come up the shaft and leak out the center of the hub would be captured by the hub's forward lip and sling or drain out through 3 holes in the rear or inboard/hidden face of the clutch hub.  By doing that, the oil would sling out into the empty bell housing rather than down into the clutch disc sandwich.  Perfect system???  You have the flywheel lock and the clutch compressor at hand.  It would only take a few minutes to pull and clean t he clutch parts.  I would try a good solvent and then soap/water bath to clean the plates.  I wouldn't toss the new plates.  Just my opinion.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[usedtobefast]

You're  only half way there.  Does your torque wrench have both metric and SAE torque readings?  90nm converts to 66ft-lb.  The specification for input shaft and output shaft is 115-129 ft-lb.  You need to develop a LOT more torque to finish this job.  Like 160 nm.

So, your clutch hub was loose.  Did you fully remove it to inspect the seal surface?  Inspect the two o-rings?

Should  you disassemble the clutch and inspect/clean the plates?  Your option.  In theory, any oil that might come up the shaft and leak out the center of the hub would be captured by the hub's forward lip and sling or drain out through 3 holes in the rear or inboard/hidden face of the clutch hub.  By doing that, the oil would sling out into the empty bell housing rather than down into the clutch disc sandwich.  Perfect system???  You have the flywheel lock and the clutch compressor at hand.  It would only take a few minutes to pull and clean t he clutch parts.  I would try a good solvent and then soap/water bath to clean the plates.  I wouldn't toss the new plates.  Just my opinion.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Hum, I had notes that said that should be 100Nm.  I first did 70.  Then 80. Then 90. And my locking tool and 4 pin socket were not inspiring confidence to go to 100Nm.    Kind of heard Scotty saying she can't take much more.   

The bike got a new transmission input seal and o-rings 40 miles ago.  Still think I should pull that apart to look at them? 

Actually, I recently bought one of those endoscopes that connect to a laptop ... I'll try that and see if I can get a peak at the clutch plates.   But realistically at this point, makes sense to pull the clutch apart and clean the plates up (if needed). 

Thanks

[pehayes]

Hum, I had notes that said that should be 100Nm.

See this thread:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=98810.0

and here in nm:




and here from Greg Bender in ft-lb.  This references the layshaft or output shaft nut.  Same size and thread as the input hub.  Same process of squishing an o-ring.:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_torque_specifications.html

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[usedtobefast]

Wow, that will be the tightest bolt I've ever done!      

How did you get yours that tight on the EV? 

Is there some other nut option other than this 4 pin one?  Just seems crazy to have a someone fragile arrangement on one of the highest torque value bolts on a motorcycle. 

Thanks

[pehayes]

1/2" drive click torque wrench 18" long. Plus these roll-yer-own tools:









And  yes, that is a LOT of torque.  I haven't done so, but I understand that the output shaft hex nut is interchangeable to the input shaft.  You might have to grind away the securing lip and then I don't know how you would secure it after torqueing.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[usedtobefast]

Ok, I got over my laziness. 

Pulled the clutch hub off and good thing, the larger o-ring was torn.  Small o-ring was OK.  But I had extras so I replaced them anyway.  Got it back together and carefully stepping up the torque and got it to mega tight.

Then I pulled the clutch apart and there was a bit of oil in there, nothing super bad/horrible.  So I cleaned all that up. 

Thanks

[n3303j]

Wow, that will be the tightest bolt I've ever done!      

How did you get yours that tight on the EV? 

Is there some other nut option other than this 4 pin one?  Just seems crazy to have a someone fragile arrangement on one of the highest torque value bolts on a motorcycle. 

Thanks

From my FWIW Department I made a half inch thick aluminum plug that fit inside the back of the 4 prong socket. I glued it in place with RC-680 Loctite. I tapped a 10-32 hole through the center of this plug. When using the socket i install a piece of 10-32 thread rod in the socket plug threaded hole from the working end of the socket and pass it through the clutch rod hole and out the back of the transmission. I put a large washer and nut on the thread rod at the back of the transmission. It is gently tightened. It holds the drive pins fully engaged in the nut and guarantees equal loading on all 4 pins. Then I snap the BIG Torque wrench in the back of the socket and the spline holder over the input coupling and lean into it. Works like a charm every time.

Same procedure for removal except I use a breaker bar for removal and just loosen the fastener a bit, then loosen thread rod retainer a bit. Repeat as necessary until fastener is free.

[usedtobefast]

Update to this ... so far I have about 125 leak free miles on it.  I feel like I need 1000 miles to really call it done and fixed. 

Thanks for all the info & help!

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

Here's the diagram:




The other mystery, I did not have washer #7.  My Quota had 20,000 miles when I bought it, and it was obvious no one had the motor off the transmission before.  So I didn't really want to add #7 if it had never been there before. 

Guessing maybe this is where I messed up and now have a transmission oil leak.  Will probably pull it apart in the next week or two to see. 

GG - let me know if yours has washer #7! 

Or Patrick - do you know if the metal washer #7 is supposed to be there?  Should I add it if it was not there before? 

Thanks

I got do not see metal washer #7 either. I’ll check again after I get the seal out and have a better view.

[pehayes]

I got do not see metal washer #7 either. I’ll check again after I get the seal out and have a better view.

Also called a 'throwout washer'.  It sits on the shaft BEHIND the input bearing and rests against the inner face of the bearing.   You won't see it until you open the box and remove that shaft.  I erred when I wrote above that you could see it in front of the bearing.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Wayne Orwig]

Also called a 'throwout washer'.  It sits on the shaft BEHIND the input bearing and rests against the inner face of the bearing.   You won't see it until you open the box and remove that shaft.  I erred when I wrote above that you could see it in front of the bearing.

Patrick,
In that drawing, is #4 and #7 actually behind the bearing. And o-ring #6 in the groove and actually ahead of the bearing once assembled?

I know there is a drawing somewhere in there that always gets me mixed up.

[n3303j]

#6 seals the bearing to the shaft.
#7 seals #4 to #6.
#4 seals spline coupler to shaft.

Convoluted way to keep transmission oil out of the clutch area. But I guess that between the chamfer on the bearing inner race and that on the spline coupler two O rings are necessary. The washer guarantees a seal between the O rings.

[pehayes]

This will be a lengthy reply but I think it clears up the parts explosion diagram.
There are two, rubber o-rings.
The thicker o-ring is #6 and resides in the obvious groove within the splines on the front end of the input shaft.
The thinner o-ring is #4 and resides inside the interior tip of the splined drive hub.  Look inside the hub and you will see that its interior opening has a 45 degree chamfer.  That chamfer is in position to receive and compress the thin o-ring against the flat face of the bearing inner race.
The 'washer', #7, is a little less obvious.  It resides INSIDE the transmission on the inner or interior face of the front bearing.  You can's see if if you don't disassemble the transmission and extract that shaft from its front bearing.

I stole the following images from the transmission rebuild PDF on Greg Bender's site and also a page from my SP-II repair manual.  I have added my own notations in  GREEN.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[GeorgiaGuzzi]

Thanks for posting this Patrick. And thanks Wayne for your help as well. Hopefully I’ll be able to ride the Guzzi up to your place next time.