Replacement Air Conditioner Advice

[LowRyter]

My main air conditioner needs a compressor.  It's apparently not economic to repair due to old freon technology.  I'm not complaining since it's nearly 30 years old.   We've been able to keep it going for the last 10 years or so with regular repair and maintenance. 

What I need is a complete replacement for coil, condenser for 3 ton unit.  I've gotten estimate from $6k-$10k.  The furnace is in good shape and is American Standard that we replaced a few years ago.

My bedroom unit is a 2 ton and his holding up OK.  It needs a half pound charge or so that last couple of years. 

Any advice appreciated regarding expected costs, best brand or repair of old unit. 

Thanks guys.

[oldbike54]

 Goodman builds a good economical unit . You will likely have a problem matching the new 14 SEER condensing unit to your old 10 SEER A coil .

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

Goodman builds a good economical unit . You will likely have a problem matching the new 14 SEER condensing unit to your old 10 SEER A coil .

 Dusty

They're replacing both, one insists on replacing the furnace too.   Any thoughts on Airco, they're statewide?  They have deal on Lennox 16 SEER and good with the old furnace. 

[oldbike54]

 No thoughts on Airco . I would check around and find out which local guy is recommended , you will normally get better service from a smaller company .

 Also , no real thoughts on Lennox , my only real experience was with Heil and Goodman , and Heil isn't what it once was .

 About replacing the air handler (furnace) , if the new unit will fit in your existing closet , it probably makes sense to do a complete change out . The new A coil will not fit the old air handler W/O a transition chamber being built , and your old system is 30 years old . The labor will run about the same, or should either way , the hard part is getting the old A coil out and the new one installed , the furnace is easy .

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

No thoughts on Airco . I would check around and find out which local guy is recommended , you will normally get better service from a smaller company .

 Also , no real thoughts on Lennox , my only real experience was with Heil and Goodman , and Heil isn't what it once was .

 About replacing the air handler (furnace) , if the new unit will fit in your existing closet , it probably makes sense to do a complete change out . The new A coil will not fit the old air handler W/O a transition chamber being built , and your old system is 30 years old . The labor will run about the same, or should either way , the hard part is getting the old A coil out and the new one installed , the furnace is easy .

 Dusty

My local guy wants to replace the furnace too.   And it's not too old. 

[oldbike54]

My local guy wants to replace the furnace too.   And it's not too old.

 Ask him why .

 Dusty

[rschrum]

My Tappan was a great deal and has been a good unit.

[LowRyter]

Ask him why .

 Dusty

He doesn't like mismatched equipment, sez it might void the warranty.   He gave three brands, Goodman, Amana and Trane. 

I've been running this American Standard heater with my old Lennox freon unit for a few years.  I'm thinking it will work with a new Lennox and the Airco guy inspected and is good to go.

Folks have told me that American Standard is best furnace brand and Lennox is top notch air.  But what do folks know?  That's why I am here.

(Shit, I'll prolly die of CV before summer anyways)

[Bisbee]

Probably need to replace the outside and interior unit as one. The pressures are much higher in the new units. The old R22 units were 70psi low and 140 high. The copper lines were designed for that. The new 410 units run at 150 low and up to 350 psi high. When I replaced my office AC with a Trane R410 unit, it blew the high copper line. Cost another 3000 to run new lines. No other option. My carrier infinity units have been sketchy. Thank goodness for extended warranty. I would definitely head towards Rheem/Rudd. Work great , simplistic. Excellent parts and service. Be sure to grill the tech as to how many tons the compressor is rated at. The unit may say 3 tons but the compressor may only be 2.5 tons . They do this to increase the efficiency by increasing the size of the coils. Trust me, you will not receive the same amount of cooling.

[Two Checks]

I replaced my a/C unit about 8 years ago. They inspected the furnace and said it was fine and replaced the coil and bent new ducting for it.
The line about the warranty is just to sell you a furnace.
How old is your furnace and does it do a good job?
One other thing. Get more a/C than you think you need. Not much but a little bigger. That way on real warm days with guests over and the stove and oven are going the a/c has enough capacity to handle it.

[LowRyter]

I replaced my a/C unit about 8 years ago. They inspected the furnace and said it was fine and replaced the coil and bent new ducting for it.
The line about the warranty is just to sell you a furnace.
How old is your furnace and does it do a good job?
One other thing. Get more a/C than you think you need. Not much but a little bigger. That way on real warm days with guests over and the stove and oven are going the a/c has enough capacity to handle it.

Furnace works good.  I've had it for a few years, maybe 10.  I'm told American Standard is a good gas furnace.  I've replaced both furnaces, I think think other one is a Ruud.  They both seem to work fine with the old Lennox air units.  I can't see why it would be a problem with a new one.

I can get the Lennox 16 SEER unit & coil for $5650, installed, permit, fuses, etc., all in.  They can put it on Monday, so I bet they might go down a little.  The original 3 ton cools fine.  So I expect this 3 ton to do as well.

I've never purchased an air unit.  The heaters were emergencies.

Funny it's freezing here now.

[oldbike54]

Furnace works good.  I've had it for a few years, maybe 10.  I'm told American Standard is a good gas furnace.  I've replaced both furnaces, I think think other one is a Ruud.  They both seem to work fine with the old Lennox air units.  I can't see why it would be a problem with a new one.

I can get the Lennox 16 SEER unit & coil for $5650, installed, permit, fuses, etc., all in.  They can put it on Monday, so I bet they might go down a little.  The original 3 ton cools fine.  So I expect this 3 ton to do as well.

I've never purchased an air unit.  The heaters were emergencies.

Funny it's freezing here now.

 John , is your electric provider giving any rebates on new 16 SEER condensing units ? Does the install price include a new copper line set ? As mentioned , the newer units run at higher head pressures .

 Dusty

 

[barrypenn]

LowRyter, Greetings from Illinois.
You are always providing good advice and entertaining posts, so trying to One Back At You. Will try to keep it boiled down, but there's lot to toss on both sides of the scale.

There's a somewhat inexpensive alternative to replacing the whole system.
if all you need is an outdoor "condensing unit", ask your HVAC guy about a "R-407 dry ship condenser unit". If you can still obtain one, they are essentially an R-22 outdoor unit that is shipped without any refrigerant in it, and specified as for use with R-407 refrigerant (blend of refrigerants totally compatible with R-22 systems, but it doesn't contain the CFC molecules that deplete ozone).

R-407a condensers are a loophole exploit for the past 5-10 years to perform an outdoor unit replacement on old systems, for economy reasons. They have been Manufacturers' way of continuing to produce R-22 "parts" minus the R-22 "Freon".
Residential HVAC companies don't like to tell peeps about the exploit 'cause there's not much money in doing an outdoor unit swap out. A few of hours capturing the R-22, cutting the dead soldier loose, wrestle the R-407 unit into place, wire, torch, evac and charge it up with R-407. Done in an afternoon.

But if your compressor failed failed due to refrigerant leaks, or electrical burnout, you need to bite the bullet and go whole hog with a new A/C system; Indoor coil, outdoor condenser, and the copper line set between them. Reasons:
-electrical burnouts skunk the oil inside the system and create acids that will damage your new unit or system. If the system is fouled, don't bother with an outdoor unit swap. Replace the works.
-Oil Incompatibility - R22 refrigerant is over. 2020 is 1st year that it cannot be produced or imported into the USA. What's here is all there is forevermore. So, modern units use a refrigerant called R-410a and an ester based system oil which is not compatible with the mineral oil that has been whipping around inside your current a/c system for the past few decades. There is no real way of getting it fully purged from the pipes, and you'll be pissed if the old pipes are "flushed" and reused with a new system to save a few hundred bux only to leak refrigerant down the road. Liken the oil thing to the diff between DOT-3 glycol based brake fluid to DOT-4 silicone based brake fluids. The oils don't play nice with each other. Nasty things happen inside your expensive new system as a result.

If your choice becomes New System, also be aware that
-R-410a systems are physically much larger in size than what you have. The outdoor unit will be nearly 2x larger, and the indoor coil abt 25% larger. Nothing wrong with that, unless footprint outside and available space between your furnace and ductwork is an issue.
-R-410a systems operate at 50% higher pressures than the old R-22 systems ran. Argument #2 that a new copper line set is appropriate.
AND,
-R-410a is ozone friendly, however it is a monstrously bad greenhouse gas. Top of the list of the worst. Talking thousands of x worse than CO2. Because of this, R-410 is slated to be phased out over the next couple of decades.

The best advice I can think of re: new system - keep it as simple as it can possibly be. You'll be bombarded with whiz-bang features, touting efficiency to the moon but don't swallow the hook. What you have now lasted for decades because it was SIMPLE. The difference in efficiency doesn't mean a darn thing when a circuit board fails and you have to sweat it out for a couple weeks waiting for a high dollar circuit board etc. Service calls ain't free, amIright?

So far as equipment - Goodman and Amana are the same thing. One is jeans, the other a Tux.  American Standard and Trane are the same thing. Am Std=Jeans.    Armstrong and Lennox are the same thing. Armstrong=jeans.  Bryant and Carrier are the same thing. Bryant=jeans.

Last thing. Warranty. Not changing your furnace with the air cond system has zero effect on the warranty for the a/c system. Anyone who says different is blowing smoke.

[LowRyter]

Thanks Barry, I think we're on the right wavelength. I've got several higher cost options.  The 16 SEER is only a couple hundred more than the 14.  The others go up by $1000s.  Now whether $5700 is worth it...I dunno.

[old head]

My unit developed a leak a few years ago, and I was able to find R22 for awhile, and add some about every 6 months or so.  But it started losing it really quick and the cost of R22 or its equivalent got to be too much.
so I replaced my main unit with window units, small ones for the bedroom and big one for the kitchen living room.  My place is only 1200sf so it works really well.  My electricity bill dropped about by half since I only cool the rooms we are in.  Quite a bit cheaper also than a main unit. 

We did this for my mom a few years back when her unit developed problems, much cheaper and saves a lot on electricity.
May or may not be an option for you, just depends on how you use your house and the size.

Mitsubishi makes an excellent zone system that does the same thing, might look into that.  We bought the system for our church, as not all the rooms are used all the time. cools just fine.

I went with what the manufacturer said I needed, but when I replace these I will be getting a little bit bigger.  My place isn't all that great on insulation and the unit will run a lot during the heat of summer here in south Louisiana.
Old Head

[LowRyter]

John , is your electric provider giving any rebates on new 16 SEER condensing units ? Does the install price include a new copper line set ? As mentioned , the newer units run at higher head pressures .

 Dusty

I dunno about the rebate.  I've got Edmond City power, so I can check.

Air-Source/Dual Fuel   $250/ton   Minimum Energy Star SEER rating of 16.0

So far as the others it only a flush and pressure check.  Metal reconnect, whips fuses, gas drip leg. 

"New line set" isn't included but listed on the side as $410 in Misc.  I said no surprises, so I better see that it won't be?

I'll call Edmond and see about the $750 rebate.

[barrypenn]

Thanks Barry, I think we're on the right wavelength. I've got several higher cost options.  The 16 SEER is only a couple hundred more than the 14.  The others go up by $1000s.  Now whether $5700 is worth it...I dunno.

Depending on which Mfr's equip is spec'd $5,700 all the way, turn-key, is a fair price from a proper HVAC contractor. There's about $2,500-$3k in equipment and materials involved (depending on Mfg) and a couple of guys a long day or comfortable couple of days work, and tidy up after. Seasoned/trustworthy Techs each cost + $500 per day loaded rate (Overhead be costly !). If something goes wrong, that starts eating up the equipment markup and profit. So, fair deal.    Would expect that cost would cover Goodman, American Standard, or Bryant equipment.  Beware equipment makes you've never heard of. Chintzy.

14 SEER is the new baseline, plain vanilla stuff.  The one that croaked outside your house is probably on the order of a 10 seer. 
So long as the SEER upgrades from there don't start meaning added circuit boards, multi stage compressors, boutique fans or blades, delicate/waify new-fangled coil materials, then Heck Yes.

--if at all possible, insist on copper tube coils indoor and out. Just like thems that served you so well for the past years.
The aluminum coils that have crept into the industry to boost efficiency etc have a sketchy track record. Not very repairable, thinner & weaker than copper yet the system pressures are way up. Gamble.

[Muzz]

I think NZ has quite a different style of aircon from the States; basically all are split unit heatpumps which both heat and cool.

R22 has been banned for years down here; the ozone hole over the Antarctic was getting bigger by the year and our UV ratings were going through the roof.  Arosoles and any "bad" hydrocarbons were banned.

R410A was the universal refrigerant when I retired but Daikin had just started bringing in the new one. (Have forgotten the number )

In the five years I spent cleaning heat pumps my favourites would definitely be Mitsubishi Electric (not Mitsubishi heavy Industries) or Daikin.

As Barrypenn has said, the outdoor units can vary in size.  It is not only the refrigerant.  For example the Mitsy outdoor unit is way bigger than the Fujitsu of the equivalent size. The Fujitsu double stack the condenser coils, whereas the Mitsy has a single row (on the bigger units of about 5kw or bigger).  This shows up on cold mornings, the Fujitsu needing to defrost a lot more than the Mitsy when running on heating.  As soon as the outer coil on the Fujitsu froze it took out the inner coil as well, and if the temp was down about -7C it would be defrosting as much as heating.

My boss was never a fan of putting new stuff on to old.  Heat pump life was looked at to be 12-15 years.  Even in the 5 years in the business the technology and the efficiencies of the units changed markedly.  Going from stop start units to inverter alone cut power usage enormously.
 
Not sure if this helps or not.

[elvisboy77]

My main air conditioner needs a compressor.  It's apparently not economic to repair due to old freon technology.  I'm not complaining since it's nearly 30 years old.   We've been able to keep it going for the last 10 years or so with regular repair and maintenance. 

What I need is a complete replacement for coil, condenser for 3 ton unit.  I've gotten estimate from $6k-$10k.  The furnace is in good shape and is American Standard that we replaced a few years ago.

My bedroom unit is a 2 ton and his holding up OK.  It needs a half pound charge or so that last couple of years. 

Any advice appreciated regarding expected costs, best brand or repair of old unit. 

Thanks guys.

Nowadays they are all junk.  Nothing will last 30 years.  The stuff about mismatching is nonsense, it is a fan, a furnace and a cooling coil, there is no rocket science to it.  If you don't like the different brands then peel the stickers off lol.

I would get the least expensive lowest efficiency (I think 14 SEER) you can, the rest of the higher seer ones are just controls and bigger heat exchangers- not worth it unless you want a 30 year payback (you should not).

If the line set from indoor to outdoor is old you may consider replacing it, or at least confirming the size is right.

I would AVOID putting different capacity (tons) units indoor and out, all the "experts" who recommend that don't know what they are talking about.  Stick with the factory matched units.

Good luck, this stuff is expensive.  I cannot believe the US was dumb enough to ban R-22.  It has really made a mess of things.

[elvisboy77]

LowRyter, Greetings from Illinois.
You are always providing good advice and entertaining posts, so trying to One Back At You. Will try to keep it boiled down, but there's lot to toss on both sides of the scale.

There's a somewhat inexpensive alternative to replacing the whole system.
if all you need is an outdoor "condensing unit", ask your HVAC guy about a "R-407 dry ship condenser unit". If you can still obtain one, they are essentially an R-22 outdoor unit that is shipped without any refrigerant in it, and specified as for use with R-407 refrigerant (blend of refrigerants totally compatible with R-22 systems, but it doesn't contain the CFC molecules that deplete ozone).

R-407a condensers are a loophole exploit for the past 5-10 years to perform an outdoor unit replacement on old systems, for economy reasons. They have been Manufacturers' way of continuing to produce R-22 "parts" minus the R-22 "Freon".
Residential HVAC companies don't like to tell peeps about the exploit 'cause there's not much money in doing an outdoor unit swap out. A few of hours capturing the R-22, cutting the dead soldier loose, wrestle the R-407 unit into place, wire, torch, evac and charge it up with R-407. Done in an afternoon.

But if your compressor failed failed due to refrigerant leaks, or electrical burnout, you need to bite the bullet and go whole hog with a new A/C system; Indoor coil, outdoor condenser, and the copper line set between them. Reasons:
-electrical burnouts skunk the oil inside the system and create acids that will damage your new unit or system. If the system is fouled, don't bother with an outdoor unit swap. Replace the works.
-Oil Incompatibility - R22 refrigerant is over. 2020 is 1st year that it cannot be produced or imported into the USA. What's here is all there is forevermore. So, modern units use a refrigerant called R-410a and an ester based system oil which is not compatible with the mineral oil that has been whipping around inside your current a/c system for the past few decades. There is no real way of getting it fully purged from the pipes, and you'll be pissed if the old pipes are "flushed" and reused with a new system to save a few hundred bux only to leak refrigerant down the road. Liken the oil thing to the diff between DOT-3 glycol based brake fluid to DOT-4 silicone based brake fluids. The oils don't play nice with each other. Nasty things happen inside your expensive new system as a result.

If your choice becomes New System, also be aware that
-R-410a systems are physically much larger in size than what you have. The outdoor unit will be nearly 2x larger, and the indoor coil abt 25% larger. Nothing wrong with that, unless footprint outside and available space between your furnace and ductwork is an issue.
-R-410a systems operate at 50% higher pressures than the old R-22 systems ran. Argument #2 that a new copper line set is appropriate.
AND,
-R-410a is ozone friendly, however it is a monstrously bad greenhouse gas. Top of the list of the worst. Talking thousands of x worse than CO2. Because of this, R-410 is slated to be phased out over the next couple of decades.

The best advice I can think of re: new system - keep it as simple as it can possibly be. You'll be bombarded with whiz-bang features, touting efficiency to the moon but don't swallow the hook. What you have now lasted for decades because it was SIMPLE. The difference in efficiency doesn't mean a darn thing when a circuit board fails and you have to sweat it out for a couple weeks waiting for a high dollar circuit board etc. Service calls ain't free, amIright?

So far as equipment - Goodman and Amana are the same thing. One is jeans, the other a Tux.  American Standard and Trane are the same thing. Am Std=Jeans.    Armstrong and Lennox are the same thing. Armstrong=jeans.  Bryant and Carrier are the same thing. Bryant=jeans.

Last thing. Warranty. Not changing your furnace with the air cond system has zero effect on the warranty for the a/c system. Anyone who says different is blowing smoke.

What an excellent and accurate summary.  Thank you.

[Mike Tashjian]

I have a thirty year old Trane system that touted a seer of 10 which was high for back then.  My buddy lives in Arizona and has bought split units, three with one head and one with five heads. The inside head units can go on the wall, in the ceiling, as a picture frame and even on the furnace as a A coil would.  His have gone in three different houses and all have SEERs that are high twenties. He sized bought and installed them all with basic mechanical skills and then hired a AC guy who did the start up.  They work surprisingly well as I saw them in action when I visited.   I am seriously considering on splitting my system when it finally fails.  I want to aim for the combination heat pump air conditioner. 

[elvisboy77]

I have a thirty year old Trane system that touted a seer of 10 which was high for back then.  My buddy lives in Arizona and has bought split units, three with one head and one with five heads. The inside head units can go on the wall, in the ceiling, as a picture frame and even on the furnace as a A coil would.  His have gone in three different houses and all have SEERs that are high twenties. He sized bought and installed them all with basic mechanical skills and then hired a AC guy who did the start up.  They work surprisingly well as I saw them in action when I visited.   I am seriously considering on splitting my system when it finally fails.  I want to aim for the combination heat pump air conditioner.

Those things are great til they leak.

[old as dirt 2]

buy direct and you can save a BUNCH  of money.
https://hvacdirect.com/furnace-air-conditioner-systems.html

I am replacing my sister-in-laws  gas package unit my self as it is a self contained unit, no need for a tech to do anything. a little power line already there, gas line already there and duct already there. slide old unit out and slide new one in. pretty darn easy.

AND still have a 10yr warranty with it.

[LowRyter]

I appreciate  everyone's advice.  I just got the Lennox 3 ton 16 SEER installed today.  It was the best price I could fine.  It blows cold air and the old heater still works.   It's a much bigger unit and they routed new pipes through the attic.  I should be good to go (cross fingers).  Hopefully the 2 ton unit in the bedrooms will last a little longer.

It was 88 today but we're keeping the windows open and enjoying the fresh air.   Glad I didn't plant my garden because cool weather is on it's way day after tomorrow.  Going to be 28 with flurries a week from today.   

[John Ulrich]

Great Topic!!!

Barry, Thanks for your great reply!!! 

My AZ place is running R22.  I have a guy come out yearly (I need to do that now) for a "tune up".  I know I'm running on borrowed time.
 
My big concern is replacing the existing lines that run up two floors in the wall to the attic where the unit lives.    How do they "pull" new lines up thru walls???

Thanks,
JU

[John Ulrich]

Thanks for the primer in HVAC!

I'm having a 3 ton Trane XR15 installed tomorrow. They'll have a fun day in the attic passing old parts down and new parts up thru a 19"x29" opening in the closet with a truss to dodge. At least I have a floor and wired in lighting once they are up there....also standing headroom.
It'll only be 80 in PHX tomorrow....I told them I would not wait until the middle of the summer when it's 110 to call them.  They have a "crane" lined it up to lift the new condenser over the 5 ft. fence..... can't risk hurting the backs of the techs... fair enough!