V7II engine switches off then won’t start

[Gioco]

Hi all,

I went for a 1 1/2 hr ride yesterday in my V7II. In the last 5-10 min only, the engine started shutting off while I was turning city corners slowly at low revs e.g. in second gear and while engaging/disengaging the clutch. It did it like 5-6 times. I barely got to my garage and then the bike died off completely; afterwards, it wouldn’t start at all and when switching the key in start position nothing would happen (lights won’t turn on, no sounds at all).

It was my 5th ride this season. Battery was changed with new one year ago. A neighbour helped me check the battery after this happened, which had about correct voltage (12.3 vs official 12.6 v) and he said the battery is only half full. But my thinking is that it should not be the battery power since this happened at the end of my ride, not at the beginning. Also, with half full battery at least some sign of life should be there (eg lights on when I switch the key). I was not able to charge the battery to the full afterwards though and try. The two battery connectors are well plugged and not corroded, I checked.

Any idea what this might be?

Thanks a lot in advance!

[Vagrant]

Did u take the battery connections off and clean them. Next side stand switch, ignition switch then main fuse.

[pyoungbl]

This sounds like your charging system is not doing its job.  You were running on battery power alone and just drained the battery until it would no longer run the fuel pump.  The ECU requires a minimum voltage, not sure where the cutoff is.  Charge the battery, crank up the bike and check the voltage.  You should see about 14V when the engine is spinning at 3500 rpm.  I'm sure a 'real' engineer will have even better suggestions but that's my best guess.

[Dave Swanson]

This sounds like your charging system is not doing its job.  You were running on battery power alone and just drained the battery until it would no longer run the fuel pump.  The ECU requires a minimum voltage, not sure where the cutoff is.  Charge the battery, crank up the bike and check the voltage.  You should see about 14V when the engine is spinning at 3500 rpm.  I'm sure a 'real' engineer will have even better suggestions but that's my best guess.

My thoughts from afar also. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Your bike may not be exactly like this but it will be close.
Like Vagrant I would check the battery connections they can look good but be covered in lead oxide, scrape the terminals expose shiny metal then apply some Vaseline, re-do the ground connection also
As Pyounbl says the battery should be more like 14 V when the engine is running.
Check the fuses particularly the 30 Amp fuse F
Unplug the connector (1) at the Voltage regulator and do a few simple tests
son the loom side It should be zero Ohms between black wires and Chassis, again Zero Ohms between Red/White and battery positive and a few Ohms between the two Yellow wires. I don't know how true to reality these colours are.
I believe the Voltage between the two yellow wires at the regulator should go up to 60 or 70 Volts AC when you rev the engine up.
At least she got you home 

[Bulldog9]

Is it an issue of the bike losing power and bogging down? or cutting off completely? 

As others have said, voltage when running should be 14V +/-  While not running, is just battery voltage. If your battery is showing above 12volts I doubt its the battery or charging system. If you can get it started again, check voltage to see if it is charging.

I'd go over all the connections for the handlebar and ignition switch (and check operation of the switch, firm on and off a few times), fuse connections (pull out and reseat), and side stand switch, make sure nothing came loose, as well as battery and ground connections.

[MMRanch]

 Gioco

I have the same model in the Stone configuration ,

The engine "KILL"  switch on the handle-bar needs an extra flip and stern talking too some times .   Especially after being used to kill the motor .     

Every time it acts up I threaten to dismantle it for a modification , for now we have come to an understanding --- I leave it alone and it don't aggravate me ! 

[SmithSwede]

Yeah, 12.3 volts is about 50% discharged.   Likely bad connections somewhere or fault in charging system.

I’d fully charge your battery.   It should read 12.6 volts.  12.6 versus 12.3 sounds like it should not matter much, but that’s actually a big difference. 

Or replace with a new one and see what it does.   Yeah, I know you think the battery is nearly new, but you would be amazed how often a problem goes away when you spend $60 and put a known good new battery in a bike. 

If you get the engine started again, immediately check to see if you are getting about 14.5 volts at the battery.   If not, you definitely have some kind of connector or charging fault. 

Also while it’s running, I would turn the handle bars full left and full right, jiggle the side stand, jiggle wires, and generally mess with the thing to see if maybe there is an intermittent electrical fault in the wires or switches.   

Was the bike outside in the dew.  Did you hit rain?   If moisture is even a possibility, it would not hurt to spray WD40 on and in your kill switch, ignition switch, spark plug wires and caps, sidestand switch, etc.

When you get it back running, please report back here.  It’s very helpful when a thread like this can be “closed out” with a post that details what the solution was. 

[Gioco]

I will start by charging the battery and checking some of the things you suggested. I will need to buy a battery charger or a tool for diagnostics of the battery first...

The idea that the charging system doesn’t work seems a good one. I had checked the fuses and they seemed OK. I doubt it’s the kill switch, never had issues with it.

The bike didn’t see rain recently and it stayed in a garage for the past 6 months except when I ride it. My previous battery lasted 4 years but I used to take it home for 3 months during the winter as I left the bike idle on the street. This new battery, I bought it 12 months ago but this time I didn’t take it off the bike this winter since it was the first time I had the chance to store the bike in a garage, instead of outside, for the 3 winter months I don’t use it. So it stood idle Dec-Feb in the garage with the battery on it and I haven’t charged since. It might be that this had also an effect of weakening the battery this winter.

I will report once I know more here. My other option is to get the bike to a repair shop somehow and have it checked as it’s time for service this month...

[Gioco]

@Bulldog9
The bike was not losing power just shutting off directly, mostly when I would make a slow turn and engage the clutch so the revs would drop to neutral. Then I could start it again (till it finally died in front of my garage). But it felt like it needed revs and the engine to be engaged to get the electrical power going.

[MMRanch]

The term " Battery 1/2 full " ... of what ?

Do ya mean 1/2 charged ?
or
Do ya mean 1/2 full of liquid ?

[SmithSwede]

Welcome to the forum by the way. 

Please don’t hesitate to ask more questions or report back on new data. 

We will walk you through this until it’s back to running.   That’s one of the best things about this forum. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

@Bulldog9
The bike was not losing power just shutting off directly, mostly when I would make a slow turn and engage the clutch so the revs would drop to neutral. Then I could start it again (till it finally died in front of my garage). But it felt like it needed revs and the engine to be engaged to get the electrical power going.

My initial thought was it's running on the Alternator not the battery, when the engine slows down to a point the Voltage drops low so it cuts off.
It may be somewhat intermittent, obviously it has to be on the battery to be able to start.
Getting left outside over the winter wouldn't help the electrical connections, pull them all apart and add some Vaseline to prevent corrosion.

[malik]

Happened to me a couple of times. Sounds suspiciously like those symptoms when the ignition switch failed - bike was parked, fired up OK, then all power cut off when did the 90 degree turn over to the other side of the road. Straighten up, lights go back on, move the handlebars a little, power back on. Leaving the key in the ignition on & move the handlebars from side to side - power on & off & on & off. With the key in the ignition at the on position, playing with wires coming out of the ignition restored power - enough to start it. Turning corners switched it off. Managed to get the bike home. Found the inside of the ignition heat- affected - enough to warp the nylon parts supporting the brass contact. If it is the ignition switch, note that a new lockset is not much more than the bare ignition & you get to operate with one key again.

Another time, when riding along the dash went crazy, lights & wildly fluctuating needles. Several Kilometers later the engine died. Completely flat battery. Turned out that the connector between the reg/rec and the alternator burnt out. The 2 yellow wires from the alternator go the a connector (under the front of the tank on the V7C, and in the space under the central frame spar where it meets the headstock on the 1TB). Turned out to be a known problem on the 2TB. Fix was to cut out the connector & the burnt wires & join in another couple of sturdy wires.

There have been other times, some identified -  faulty kill switch, faulty inclination sensor, faulty sidestand switch, loose battery terminal, and others not identified, where for some unknown reason, they fixed themselves. Hey, it's Italian, maybe it just needed a short rest.

Good luck.

[TobyJug]

I agree.  It sounds like the ignition switch to me.  It's similar to what happened to mine.  My temporary fix was to wire a socket across the ignition switch and then use a plug with the 2 pins shorted as a 'key'.

[Gioco]

I went to the garage this morning to check again quickly my sick bike.

Turn handlebar full left, switch key to on, no sign of life/no light or anything. Turn it straight, same story. But then I turn handlebar full to the right, ignition on, then all lights come up as normal, and engine starts with no problem at all!

And indeed, when the bike was shutting off while I rode it Saturday, this happened while I was doing 90 degree turns in narrower streets.

What could it be then?

[greer]

Hi Gioco,

Check malik's post just above, it sure sounds like a problem with the ignition switch.

Sarah

[SmithSwede]

Ahh, good data.  Since no lights come on at all, until they do, I strongly suspect a problem with the ignition switch, or maybe the associated connector if there is one.  We had a member here have one of the terminals break off from the bottom of the switch, requiring its replacement. 

Are the wires themselves sound?  Not too taut?  No abraded insulation?  Internal breaks?

Since it was working fine before, then started acting up after long storage, I would look closely for signs of chew damage by mice or other gnawy critters. 

Does turning the handlebars to the right add slack to the main wiring cluster (I think it does).  If so, that’s a powerful clue.

[SmithSwede]

Guico:

A bit more information. Looks like your ignition switch is Moto Guzzi part number GU32782510.   It looks like there is a connector maybe 4 inches away from the switch.   Apparently this is a white, two prong connector with a yellow wire and a green wire. 

I'd make sure that connector is clean and well secured.  It might be loose or distorted, and pulling out when the handlebars pull on the wiring.  Also check the back side of the switch.  I'd jiggle everything while the ignition switch is in ON, and have somebody tell you when the lights come on or go off.

Looks like the switch is attached by at least two bolts from underneath.  One is labeled a "special" bolt, which probably means it is some kind of weird anti-theft bolt.   Might have to drill that one out. 

I tested my 2013 V7 Stone, which may, or may not, act the same as yours.   When I turn my key on but before cranking, the speedo and tach needles sweep across their dials, all the lights light on briefly, then all but the green neutral, red oil pressure, and yellow check engine lights turn off.   After a few seconds, the yellow check engine light turns off.  The green neutral and red oil pressure lights remain on indefinitely.

The above behavior is exactly the same whether the engine kill switch is in ON or OFF. 

Hope that helps.   Keep posting details!

[Bulldog9]

Broken wires or bad connection. Should be easy to track down, pull the tank, and track all connectors starting with ign switch, and trace wires/bundles. Check grounds too. You'll have it straightened out in no time.

This should be what the connector for the IGN switch looks like. If the connection is good, wiggle the wires where they enter the switch housing.

[malik]

That "special" bolt is a snap bolt - when first screwed in, the head is snapped off. Supposed to discouraged thieves. The concept is fine, but the application here is perhaps inappropriate. If thieves actually get that far in, a snap bolt is unlikely to be a major problem.

From memory (my notes here are uncharacteristicly terse), it was not difficult to remove once the top triple clamp was on the bench, mostly likely used a drill and an ezyout. Replaced with a bolt the same as the other side - M8x1.25x15 socket head.

[Gioco]

Thank you all. It must be the ignition switch.

I went to my garage this evening again. The symptoms are exactly as Malik described.

I turn the key on, moving the handlebar left to straight to right it lights turn on only when handlebar surpasses a certain degree to the right, pulling (or pushing) a cable. When light are on engine starts with no problem but the I turn back straight and electricity goes off.

In straight handlebar position and key on there is no lights. But I found a cable, top cable on the left side cable bundle (I think the one that enters the ign switch) and when I pull it/push it up a bit, I manage to bring the lights back on. The cable though goes into a whole in front of the tank, I couldn’t trace all of it and check properly the path. Need more time for that. Can I remove the tank to see that?

I called the guy at the MG repair shop and briefly explained. He confirmed likely it’s the ignition switch and that this problem is common.

Now my challenge - since I will go to the MG guy anyway also for a service - is how to steady the cable to be able to ride to him since he’s like 40 km away.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Quite often what happens is the wires are flexing back and forth with the bars moving, the copper wires work harden where they bend until they eventually snap.
Look at the picture Bulldog9 posted, its probably in that short piece of wire or where it solders to the switch, you should be able to fix it yourself.
Move the bars back and forth looking at the loom to see where it is bending excessively, that's likely the spot.

[Andy1]

Am I missing something here.....
If you waggle the handlebars and the connection is good / bad it shows it is NOT the ignition switch but is a wire or connector.   It could be a connector on the ignition switch but not the switch itself.
AndyB

[Gioco]

Am I missing something here.....
If you waggle the handlebars and the connection is good / bad it shows it is NOT the ignition switch but is a wire or connector.   It could be a connector on the ignition switch but not the switch itself.
AndyB

Andy1 that’s correct: not the ignition switch itself but a cable or connector related to it that gets dislocated/cut-off by the twisting associated with moving the bar left and right.

[guzzisteve]

Here ya go, have at it---  http://www.cycleterminal.com/amp-superseal-connectors.html

[malik]

Perhaps. If it is only the wires, you're in luck. Cheap fix. In my case, the insides had melted a little, enough to deform the nylon carrier for the contact plate, making a solid contact problematic. Here's some photos of my old switch. The rounded cap at the bottom of the switch clips in & out at three places - a small blade screwdriver should be able to press in the catches so it can be moved off to show the wires going into the body.









If you do have to ride to the dealer, 40k might be a stretch (I had trouble enough with 4K), unless you can effectively bypass the switch. Others here with the electrical expertise (or a mis-spent youth) should be able to advise better on this.

Hope this helps some.

[m13]

old recurring problem this was way back when my 2009 V7Classic quit when turning the handlebar

[SmithSwede]

Gioco:

Please don't try this unless someone who really knows about electrical stuff, like Kiwi Roy, backs this up.   

I would think that the ignition switch is simply making, and breaking, continuity between the yellow and green wires found within the connector to the switch.  What else could it be doing?  So I think you could just bypass the switch in order to ride to the dealer. 

I would think that you could detach the negative lead to battery and remove or lift up the gas tank.  Get access to the connector at the end of the wires coming from the ignition switch.  Disconnect the connector.  Then attach two long, similar size wires into each female plug, and pass both wires out from the tank, keeping each one insulated.  Reinstall the tank, re-attach battery.   Then when you are ready to leave, attach the two wires together, to bypass the switch.  Insulate the connection in some way for the ride. 

Again, please don't do this unless somebody agrees with me.  I don't know if the switch has some big fat resistor or something else in there that precludes you from simply hotwiring the yellow and green wires together.   

[SmithSwede]

For what it's worth, there is a another V7 rider near me in Texas who had a problem with her ignition switch.   

Although I never saw the bad switch, my understanding is that the failure mode was the same as M13 shows.   A bad solder joint on the underside of the switch.