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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Milosh on March 30, 2021, 09:16:26 AM
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Update: I trailered it to the dealership and they did a short test on the wiring harness. It was the ignition switch. The service advisor told me that the part is probably in Italy, which means I'm without motorcycle for the time being.
I was riding along the highway and all of a sudden...everything turned off. It was as if the someone turned the key to the off position.
I coasted to the side of the road and cycled the key on and off twice and then the bike was able to be restarted.
And then it happened again when I pulled into the parking lot backing up into my spot.
I'm going to check the battery connections, but is there something else you would look out for?
Thanks.
It's a 2017 V9 Bobber with a few thousand miles on her. I usually keep her on a Battery Tender if I'm not riding for a few weeks.
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more than one V7/9 ignition switch has failed. broken wire on the back.
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more than one V7/9 ignition switch has failed. broken wire on the back.
On the bottom of the switch or the back? What should I look for? I'll take a look at lunch time.
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I'm not sure if it can be seen w/o removal but I bet you can get a finger up there and wiggle a tiny bit while running. My V7 is 1800 miles away so I can't check. Anybody else?
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I think the V9 will be similar to the V7 the ground connection is a large lug on a stud right on top of the gearbox.
Scrape the battery terminals and apply some grease (Vaseline or any grease) to prevent Lead Oxide build up, that can happen quite quickly.
Here is the schematic see how the fuses are divided into two groups ABC and DEF which are joined by the ignition switch.
If it happens again take a test light or meter and see if one DEF are alive while ABC is dead which would point to an open switch.
If group DEF is also dead it's something to do with the battery connections.
Carry a short piece of wire you can jumper across the two groups to bypass the switch if you need to until you fix the problem
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2017_V9_Bobber.gif
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I bet you can get a finger up there and wiggle a tiny bit while running.
Amazing that you say that, I know a proctologist that just did an ultra marathon....! :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks for the responses.
In the parking lot at work, I checked the battery connections, which were good. I also checked the ignition switch (as much as I could). I also checked the side-stand switch. All seemed good. I rode it home with no issues, but I'm going to have to do further investigations now.
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Thanks for the responses.
In the parking lot at work, I checked the battery connections, which were good. I also checked the ignition switch (as much as I could). I also checked the side-stand switch. All seemed good. I rode it home with no issues, but I'm going to have to do further investigations now.
I had a Ducati that would stop dead from time to time and restart fine. I eventually realised it always happened doing slow r/h turns like tight roundabouts or pulling into my drive way. I traced it to a loose ignition switch connector on the back of the switch which would break contact when the steering was turned with the wiring moving.
Ciao
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At home with the bike idling, reach in behind the switch and move the loom around a bit, if there’s a loose wire that should cut the motor.
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"And then it happened again when I pulled into the parking lot backing up into my spot." Don't back up. :shocked: :grin:
Like everyone else said check your hot lead connections. Recheck your ground strap to the frame. Crack it loose then retighten.
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Will the engine stop on your bike if you disconnect the battery while it’s running at well above idle ?
Was not always the case, on a lot of bikes the engine would keep going as long as the alternator was supplying current.
I mention it because, if your bike will run without the battery at higher than idle revs, then a failing battery won’t STOP your bike. It will just refuse to re start it.
How many times have you seen a bike with a flat battery jump start and the leads are taken off immediately and it keeps going, with the command as you ride off...
“Don’t stall the bastard...”
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Will the engine stop on your bike if you disconnect the battery while it’s running at well above idle ?
The whole bike stopped running at 70 mph like I hit a kill switch.
Recheck your ground strap to the frame. Crack it loose then retighten.
Gonna hafta trace it because I don't see it on the frame, unless someone's got a clue where it is.
I eventually realised it always happened doing slow r/h turns like tight roundabouts or pulling into my drive way. I traced it to a loose ignition switch connector on the back of the switch which would break contact when the steering was turned with the wiring moving.
I was going dead straight each time. I'm beginning to suspect the ignition switch, though. I'm gonna do some more diagnostics after work tomorrow.
Thanks again and I'll keep you posted.
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Good Luck.
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I HATE[ intermittent faults!!!
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Someone with more knowledge correct me, but if the whole bike shuts down then your problem should be between the battery and ignition switch inclusive, or the switch and the main fuse panel inclusive. Trace those circuits with a voltmeter and check grounds. Also check the main fuse.
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but if the whole bike shuts down then your problem should be between the battery and ignition switch inclusive, or the switch and the main fuse panel inclusive.
Its a fuel injected bike. Couldn't it be an intermittent pump, failing pressure regulator, timing sensors?. I'm with MUZZ. This intermittent stuff sucks. Works fine one day and not the next. Basic scientific principle; you can't prove a negative. You could 'fix' a dozen things and go for a perfect 100 mile ride. Next day it won't start. Crap!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Milosh, you don't actually say if the whole dash stayed dark, or whether any lights came on when the bike died.
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Its a fuel injected bike. Couldn't it be an intermittent pump, failing pressure regulator, timing sensors?. I'm with MUZZ. This intermittent stuff sucks. Works fine one day and not the next. Basic scientific principle; you can't prove a negative. You could 'fix' a dozen things and go for a perfect 100 mile ride. Next day it won't start. Crap!
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Won't be any of those if the "whole bike shut down" as in total power loss. From the OP's first post "everything turned off. It was as if the someone turned the key to the off position" Troubleshooting 101, if you don't know what it can be then eliminate what it can't be.
Ciao
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The only reason I asked if your bike will run without the battery once started, is that if it will, then the bike quitting at high speed will not be the battery.
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I have a Stelvio that did exactly the same a couple of years ago, it was a break in one of the wires from the ignition switch to the ECU. Had broken inside the insulation where the harness from the switch routed round the headstock and would at random switch everything off exactly like turning the ignition off.
Cut the sleeving off the harness and pulled/wiggled each wire until I could get a permanent fault then cut/spliced new wire in. Works OK since then.
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I have a Stelvio that did exactly the same a couple of years ago, it was a break in one of the wires from the ignition switch to the ECU. Had broken inside the insulation where the harness from the switch routed round the headstock and would at random switch everything off exactly like turning the ignition off.
Cut the sleeving off the harness and pulled/wiggled each wire until I could get a permanent fault then cut/spliced new wire in. Works OK since then.
That often happens in older high milage bikes, copper work hardens and snaps if it is constantly bending in a confined space, I'm surprised it would happen in a new bike like the Stelvio, wires around the headstock should bend gently over several inches, more of a twisting motion and not held tight in a loom. if the wires are breaking at a low milage that's sloppy workmanship.
Note the OP said it happened twice backing into a parking space when the bike might have been on full lock but the first time he was going straight down the road.
With an intermittent fault you need to be prepared to troubleshoot when it happens thats why I suggested testing for Voltage at the fuse panel A,B,C are switched while D,E,F should always be ON
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2017_V9_Bobber.gif
Monitor the Voltage at ABC with a lamp while swinging from lock to lock and wrenching the loom as much as you can. (Jamb one wire in a fuse holder with the other under a bolt)
A simple lamp is much more visual than a digital multimeter for this task.
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Milosh, you don't actually say if the whole dash stayed dark, or whether any lights came on when the bike died.
The dash went dark. No lights. No hazards. Nothing. That was the scary part. I've had bikes stall and been able to restart them. This was different.
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Update for those interested.
I talked with Enzo at Cadre. He suggested I try a few things first, which I did this afternoon.
1. Check the main fuse. I checked the main fuse by eye and by continuity. Good.
2. Make sure the battery terminals are tight with a 10mm wrench. Did that. I had previously attached them with just the Philips.
3. Inspect the main wire connection to the ECU on the throttle body. That seemed tight and pressing it on further made no movement.
4. Check the kill switch on the handlebar. It works. Noteably, the kill switch allows the lights to stay on, but in my instance everything goes out.
5. Check the ignition switch. It works. But I have an intermittent problem!
So now I'm at a loss as to what to do next. I may get the GuzziDiag and see what that does. But because it's intermittent, it may not show up.
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Update for those interested.
I talked with Enzo at Cadre. He suggested I try a few things first, which I did this afternoon.
1. Check the main fuse. I checked the main fuse by eye and by continuity. Good.
2. Make sure the battery terminals are tight with a 10mm wrench. Did that. I had previously attached them with just the Philips.
3. Inspect the main wire connection to the ECU on the throttle body. That seemed tight and pressing it on further made no movement.
4. Check the kill switch on the handlebar. It works. Noteably, the kill switch allows the lights to stay on, but in my instance everything goes out.
5. Check the ignition switch. It works. But I have an intermittent problem!
So now I'm at a loss as to what to do next. I may get the GuzziDiag and see what that does. But because it's intermittent, it may not show up.
What does this mean? Did you start the bike and grab the wiring to the ignition switch and give it a good shake around and also turn the handlebars full lock both directions? You probably dont even need the engine running for this check as the symptoms you have described are main power related.
Guzzidiag won't tell you anything.
Ciao
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Update for those interested.
I talked with Enzo at Cadre. He suggested I try a few things first, which I did this afternoon.
1. Check the main fuse. I checked the main fuse by eye and by continuity. Good.
2. Make sure the battery terminals are tight with a 10mm wrench. Did that. I had previously attached them with just the Philips.
3. Inspect the main wire connection to the ECU on the throttle body. That seemed tight and pressing it on further made no movement.
4. Check the kill switch on the handlebar. It works. Noteably, the kill switch allows the lights to stay on, but in my instance everything goes out.
5. Check the ignition switch. It works. But I have an intermittent problem!
So now I'm at a loss as to what to do next. I may get the GuzziDiag and see what that does. But because it's intermittent, it may not show up.
If you did all of that then the most probable thing is an issue with the one piece that moves so to speak, the ignition switch. I would check that out carefully or even replace it, maybe blast it with contact cleaner first, that is what I would do..
Cadre are good folks to help you like that.
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What does this mean? Did you start the bike and grab the wiring to the ignition switch and give it a good shake around and also turn the handlebars full lock both directions? You probably dont even need the engine running for this check as the symptoms you have described are main power related.
That's exactly what I did.
Cadre are good folks to help you like that.
Enzo is a mensch. I don't many MG dealerships, but of the ones I know, he's the one I trust the most.
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That's exactly what I did.
Then you probably need to replace the ignition switch or possibly the kill switch. Intermittent problems can be hard to solve and sometimes it's a matter of elimination from most likely/least expensive to the opposite.
Ciao
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The dash went dark. No lights. No hazards. Nothing. That was the scary part. I've had bikes stall and been able to restart them. This was different.
To me this says that is in you main connection from the battery to the switch.
You have checked the fuse. My thinking the problem then is in the wire to the switch, or the switch itself. Beyond that I would think that at least something should go. It does not sound like the EFI module to me.
When a stone took out most of the sidestand switch everything including the EFI light lit up, which actually really scared me. Electrical constipation in electronics where it won't pass a current is somewhat worrying.
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Two thoughts.
* Are you SURE the WHOLE bike shut down (i.e. there was no headlight or tail light?) - I mean from the seat you might not be able to tell.
* Wiggle and Tap test - intermittents can sometimes be found by running the bike while wiggling each possible wiring harness and/or gently tapping on the suspect component. Stick a small screwdriver up into contact with the ignition switch and tap lightly on the handle. If the bike cuts out while doing either test, Bob's Your Uncle.
I had a bad ignition switch on the Jackal which cut power to the bike running dead straight down the Blue Ridge Parkway, WHEN I hit a bump. The tap test confirmed it.
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My 2000 Jackal did this after I bought it last year. It had been taken in a trade so my friend wasn't aware of this condition. A previous trip to a dealership did not resolve the issue (receipts).
Motorcycle Rejuvenators found a relay under the seat had failed. My guess was this occurs only when the bike is hot as Tony and I had both taken the bike out on short test rides. This was a cheap repair (replacement of relay).
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Two thoughts.
* Are you SURE the WHOLE bike shut down (i.e. there was no headlight or tail light?) - I mean from the seat you might not be able to tell.
* Wiggle and Tap test - intermittents can sometimes be found by running the bike while wiggling each possible wiring harness and/or gently tapping on the suspect component. Stick a small screwdriver up into contact with the ignition switch and tap lightly on the handle. If the bike cuts out while doing either test, Bob's Your Uncle.
I had a bad ignition switch on the Jackal which cut power to the bike running dead straight down the Blue Ridge Parkway, WHEN I hit a bump. The tap test confirmed it.
Positive the whole bike shut down. No lights. No nothing...because when I pulled over to the side of the road, I couldn't even turn on the hazard lights. There were no lights on the dash. Everything went out.
I did the wiggle test on the ignition and checked the connections Enzo told me to and I think it may be time to bring a professional because when I worked on electronics when I was building scientific instruments, if I had intermittent, I'd replace the whole board. Too many times I wasted time checking test points that worked when it was working.
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Its too dangerous troubleshooting in traffic, you might get run over.
Right up front the OP said it was like someone turned the key off.
The headlight of a V7 normally stays On with the kill switch pushed and the bike rolling. it stays On for about 5 seconds after stopping and turns back on if the key is On and you move the bike at walking speed, I assume the V9 is the same.
Fuse D,E & F are always Live or should be.
Fuse A, B & C are on the other side of the ignition switch, they will be dead when you turn the key Off or the circuit fails.
The first thing to find out is which group of fuses are loosing power, simple as a small bulb between the fuses and chassis.
Start by wiring the lamp to A,B or C and chassis, wrap one wire around the fuse pin any one off the 6 points available, the other can be clipped to a nice shiny bolt, (not the handlebars, they aren't grounded)
Once you have your light On then start wiggling stuff, the light will flash when you find the sweet spot, then you can try moving the Lamp to one of the fuses D,E or F the lamp there should stay On when you wiggle the sweet spot or its something to do with the battery connections or main ground.
I assume by this time you have cleaned the connections.
Note: Sometimes there is a slight error on the schematic, maybe an extra fuse or two but there will be two distinct groups on either side of the ignition switch.
Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921
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Positive the whole bike shut down. No lights. No nothing...because when I pulled over to the side of the road, I couldn't even turn on the hazard lights. There were no lights on the dash. Everything went out.
I did the wiggle test on the ignition and checked the connections Enzo told me to and I think it may be time to bring a professional because when I worked on electronics when I was building scientific instruments, if I had intermittent, I'd replace the whole board. Too many times I wasted time checking test points that worked when it was working.
Copy that, I wasn't sure of whole story. Ya know guy pulls over and shuts off key reflexively then "remembers" that everything shut off, but did it etc. You would be surprised how many times an owner gives the tech only a small part of the story.
Anyway, parts swapping is generally frowned upon as troubleshooting on vehicles because of the price of the in theory nonreturnable parts. But dealers and techs do it for sure sometimes.
On the flip side yoo can't just easily swap out the whole harness so there's a reason to troubleshoot.
Good luck
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Its too dangerous troubleshooting in traffic, you might get run over.
Right up front the OP said it was like someone turned the key off.
The headlight of a V7 normally stays On with the kill switch pushed and the bike rolling. it stays On for about 5 seconds after stopping and turns back on if the key is On and you move the bike at walking speed, I assume the V9 is the same.
Fuse D,E & F are always Live or should be.
Fuse A, B & C are on the other side of the ignition switch, they will be dead when you turn the key Off or the circuit fails.
The first thing to find out is which group of fuses are loosing power, simple as a small bulb between the fuses and chassis.
Start by wiring the lamp to A,B or C and chassis, wrap one wire around the fuse pin any one off the 6 points available, the other can be clipped to a nice shiny bolt, (not the handlebars, they aren't grounded)
Once you have your light On then start wiggling stuff, the light will flash when you find the sweet spot, then you can try moving the Lamp to one of the fuses D,E or F the lamp there should stay On when you wiggle the sweet spot or its something to do with the battery connections or main ground.
I assume by this time you have cleaned the connections.
Note: Sometimes there is a slight error on the schematic, maybe an extra fuse or two but there will be two distinct groups on either side of the ignition switch.
Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921
What Kiwi Roy says. The same thing happened to me on my 08' California Vintage. I followed his instructions and found that the problem stemmed from a connection occurring under the seat brought on by the underside of the seat simply depressing a connection until it came disconnected while I was riding it. Simple problem. Simple fix once I discovered the cause.
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Visually check fuse block for evidence of heating at the connection points. Rotate the fuses in place so the ends don’t get fuzzy. This is something I do as a general maintenance item. At this point you should consider removing the ignition switch to inspect it and associated wiring. The contacts in the base may get loose from overheating. As posted already it is a most likely cause. Do you have any non standard accessories in the system that could add load? The battery could also be faulty with an internal intermittent open to one of the posts- rare but does happen. My guess is still the ignition switch. They can be taken apart and rejuvenated. Mark it before disassembly so you don’t have to re clock it for the contacts to be right. The problem would be in the base where the contacts live. There should be three tabs that can be opened to take the base off. There was a page on it here somewhere, maybe a year or so ago so try to find that
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Update: I chatted with Enzo for a bit. The result was that he thinks it could have been just the battery terminal screws being just a bit loose that I tightened.
His advice was to ride it locally until I build up trust with her again. If it happens again, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Which means to me, I'll either ship it back to Cincy to have him look at it, or trailer it to Richmond or Charlotte (preferences? please lemme know either by reply or PM).
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Copy that, I wasn't sure of whole story. Ya know guy pulls over and shuts off key reflexively then "remembers" that everything shut off, but did it etc. You would be surprised how many times an owner gives the tech only a small part of the story.
Anyway, parts swapping is generally frowned upon as troubleshooting on vehicles because of the price of the in theory nonreturnable parts. But dealers and techs do it for sure sometimes.
On the flip side yoo can't just easily swap out the whole harness so there's a reason to troubleshoot.
Good luck
Yes like 99% of the time. On the V11 forum a guy with a running issue that had us all working on it and after 5 pages of troubleshooting proudly informed us he'd found the problem was with the PC3 connection. Problem was he'd not mentioned one was fitted up to that point. Unbelievable timewaster.
Ciao
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Update: I chatted with Enzo for a bit. The result was that he thinks it could have been just the battery terminal screws being just a bit loose that I tightened.
His advice was to ride it locally until I build up trust with her again. If it happens again, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Which means to me, I'll either ship it back to Cincy to have him look at it, or trailer it to Richmond or Charlotte (preferences? please lemme know either by reply or PM).
I’ll ask you again...
If your bike is running at 3,000 rpm on the centrestand at home and you remove one terminal, will the engine cut out, or continue on the alternator ?
Because if you prove it will run on the alternator, then it’s not your battery or terminals.
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https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=94262.0
Found the ignition switch thread. It was three years ago
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I’ll ask you again...
If your bike is running at 3,000 rpm on the centrestand at home and you remove one terminal, will the engine cut out, or continue on the alternator ?
Because if you prove it will run on the alternator, then it’s not your battery or terminals.
Negative is best for this test. That rhymes
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Negative is best for this test. That rhymes
Sounds like Cat In the Hat...
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I’ll ask you again...
If your bike is running at 3,000 rpm on the centrestand at home and you remove one terminal, will the engine cut out, or continue on the alternator ?
Because if you prove it will run on the alternator, then it’s not your battery or terminals.
I'm sorry I missed your question. I'll check that tomorrow.
In the meantime I found the problem! I figured I'd jiggle the key in the ignition switch and REPRODUCED THE PROBLEM! I even had my wife look.
It doesn't happen every time I did it, but it did it at least twice.
So as you all thought, it's the ignition switch. I'll order one up tomorrow.
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Yes like 99% of the time. On the V11 forum a guy with a running issue that had us all working on it and after 5 pages of troubleshooting proudly informed us he'd found the problem was with the PC3 connection. Problem was he'd not mentioned one was fitted up to that point. Unbelievable timewaster.
Ciao
No PC3. My job for 25+ years has been in science and engineering. I'm paid to convey the details. ;)
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No PC3. My job for 25+ years has been in science and engineering. I'm paid to convey the details. ;)
Don't take it personally, we don't know that going in and we've been trained not to assume. :thumb:
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I would pull each fuse, coat with some Vaseline and re-seat. I was having this problem not for the main fuse, but on some of the accessories. Pulled and reseated the fuses and never a problem again. I'd also do the same with the relays, but you will likely have to pull the tank.
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No PC3. My job for 25+ years has been in science and engineering. I'm paid to convey the details. ;)
Cool It was just a general observation of past frustrations :laugh:
Ciao
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Another possibility is the stand switch, the one on my 2 year old V7 is starting to play up, that will kill the motor or prevent it cranking in gear.
I don't think its the cause in this case but you never know.
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From your post, sounds like you and your wife found the key switch to have an issue. Go figure. Something that can last 50+ years in and old car, craps out early on a bike??
Tom
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I'm sorry I missed your question. I'll check that tomorrow.
In the meantime I found the problem! I figured I'd jiggle the key in the ignition switch and REPRODUCED THE PROBLEM! I even had my wife look.
It doesn't happen every time I did it, but it did it at least twice.
So as you all thought, it's the ignition switch. I'll order one up tomorrow.
Well my question may very well be redundant mate and I hope so.
Hearty congratulations to you for your perseverance, best of good fortune to you.
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Updated above in the OP. Ignition switch.
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Updated further. Still waiting on the ignition harness. I'm thinking of selling her because it's been like two months now and counting without a motorcycle and life is too short to ride unreliable motorcycles. And can be made shorter still by riding one.
Why would motorcycle manufacturers take a vehicle that's a bit riskier to drive than a car and add the factor of unreliability? It's not like you see brand new Ford F150s or Nissan Sentras stalling or losing power in the middle of the highway. Or having their brakes lock up. Or having their lights fail.
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A few weeks back I did a tutorial on the switch, I just pulled mine apart to see how difficult it would be. Note: you only replace the contact block, the lock part stays in place in fact it would be very difficult to take off.
I think it's more likely to be just a broken wire, the factory doesn't fasten the wires at the back of the switch so with flexing the wires snap at the solder joint.
There is nothing magic about the switch, any old switch could replace it at a pinch e.g. a domestic light switch hidden under the seat and connected across the two groups of fuses.
Here is the ignition switch showing how to get it off and apart.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=110098.msg1747391#msg1747391
And the schematic showing how the switch (14) just connects two groups of fuses together (22).
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2017_V9_Bobber.gif
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
So a short length of wire jammed between the two groups of fuses will get you home, the fuses are protected by the seat lock.
The kill switch will shut the bike down but I'm not sure if there is any drain on the battery when its off, best to open the jumper between fuses for a long stop.