Author Topic: Should intake valve be open or closed to get piston to TDC for valve adjust?  (Read 944 times)

Online sstone14

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I've seen conflicting information online, but in one of the videos, they were adjusting the valve clearance on the left-side cylinder, and in the other, they were adjusting the valve clearance on the right-side cylinder. Is this why one of them had the intake valve open (left-side), and the other had the intake valve closed (right-side) when adjusting the piston to TDC?

Also, I'm rewording the second part of my question from my previous post here, because I understand it a little bit better now:

You rotate the rear wheel forward to get the valves to open and close, and then once the intake valve is where you want it, wherever that is, either open or closed (see first part of question above), you then rotate the rear wheel forward to raise the piston to TDC. BUT--and my question is this--doesn't rotating the rear wheel forward to get piston to TDC ALSO change the position of the valves, which I thought we wanted in a specific position before getting piston to TDC? Am I confused and overcomplicating this? Or am I missing or misunderstanding something?

Thanks, y'all.
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Offline Kev m

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I've seen conflicting information online, but in one of the videos, they were adjusting the valve clearance on the left-side cylinder, and in the other, they were adjusting the valve clearance on the right-side cylinder. Is this why one of them had the intake valve open (left-side), and the other had the intake valve closed (right-side) when adjusting the piston to TDC?

Also, I'm rewording the second part of my question from my previous post here, because I understand it a little bit better now:

You rotate the rear wheel forward to get the valves to open and close, and then once the intake valve is where you want it, wherever that is, either open or closed (see first part of question above), you then rotate the rear wheel forward to raise the piston to TDC. BUT--and my question is this--doesn't rotating the rear wheel forward to get piston to TDC ALSO change the position of the valves, which I thought we wanted in a specific position before getting piston to TDC? Am I confused and overcomplicating this? Or am I missing or misunderstanding something?

Thanks, y'all.

I just finished a huge reply detailing it all in your other thread.

But WTF I'll copy it here.


For newbies I also think it is best that they watch the intake and exhaust valves open and close a rotation or two to figure out if the piston is at TDC of the Exhaust or Compression strokes.

Forgive me, I'm going into work mode and assuming nothing on your part.

Remember a 4-stroke engine works with 4 different phases of piston movement with regards to the valve train (camshaft movement).

The crankshaft moves TWO full revolutions for every ONE revolution of the Cam.

That means Piston DOWN, piston UP, Piston DOWN, Piston UP for one cycle of the valve train.

The phases are (and this is circular so it doesn't really matter where we start):

* Power Stroke (piston down, burning fuel, making power)
* Exhaust Stroke (exhaust valve opens, piston moves up pushing out expired gasses)
* Intake Stroke (intake valve opens, piston moves down drawing in fresh gasses)
* Compression Stroke (piston up, compresses gasses)

Cycle repeats.

This means when you're rotating the crankshaft (via tire or rotor nut) you watch. If the valve at the front of the head (closest to the exhaust pipe, I.E. the Exhaust Valve) opens and the piston is coming UP you're on the EXHAUST STROKE you'll need to go around again.

The Exhaust valve will close and the Intake (the one at the back of the head, closest to the throttle body) will open as you go around. You're on the Intake stroke now.

As the Intake Valve closes the piston will be heading up again on the COMPRESSION stroke. This is it.

When the piston gets to the top of the travel you'll be a TDC (Top Dead Center) of the COMPRESSION stroke.

This is the point where most motors (including all Guzzis I've ever worked on) have their lifters on the base of the camshaft lobes. This the point of most lash/play.

This is the point you check both the valves on THAT cylinder. Why this point, because only during compression can you be sure BOTH valves should be closed. They have to be, or the gasses wouldn't compress. On some motors, especially multi-cylinder, you may adjust valves separately, say exhaust of two and intake of two at a certain point where they are all closed at the same moment, then turn and do the others at another point. But this is a simple motor, no need to over-complicate it. Do one cylinder at a time, at the point the crankshaft has reached TDC compression for THAT piston and you're good, then find the point on the crank/valve train for the other.

You can make marks on the alternator rotor to help you find that point again easily, just remember that any mark for the CRANKSHAFT will only tell you that the piston is at the top of travel and NOT whether the valve train is in the Exhaust or Compression stroke (the valve positions will tell you that). Anytime you see the intake open and then close and the piston starts moving UP then you're on Compression.

Repeat for other cylinder.

Bob's your uncle.

Back to writing a new Kymco OEM manual for me....
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 11:19:47 AM by Kev m »
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Offline Motormike

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Whenever you check a valve clearance, you need to be "off the cam" that means the cam lobe should not be lifting the valve at all. In otherwords, valve closed.

Offline Mayor_of_BBQ

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not as clear as I thought, seems like everyone else is explaining the same thing in a different way
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 09:51:22 AM by Mayor_of_BBQ »
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Offline LowRyter

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Valves should be closed on TDC compression stroke.  If the valves are opening at TDC, then you won't get the feeler gauge in (unless both valves are super tight), turn the crank another 360 degrees (one full turn), then the feeler gauge should fit .
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Online Kiwi_Roy

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I wouldn't try to figure out where the valves should be on one cylinder while you are setting the opposite valves, it will just make your head hurt.
Treat the motor as two separate single cylinders and just work on one at the time.
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Online Huzo

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I don’t even understand the wording of the title…
Here it is.
Remove the covers.
Start with the left cylinder.
Wind the engine in the correct direction of rotation until you see the inlet valve opening, you are now taking in mixture and the piston is descending.
As the inlet valve begins to close, you have hit BDC and are ascending towards TDC on the compression stroke.
Whack the straw down the hole and you’ll feel the piston reach TDC.
At the point where you can rock the crank forward and backwards a couple of degrees and no discernible movement occurs at the piston….?
You are at TDC on the compression stroke.
Now set the clearance at that point.

Rinse and repeat, on the right hand side exactly the same..
Or you can do the right hand side first….No difference.
Your title sounds awkward because it’s implying the the valve is determining where the piston should be.
If you like that way of thinking, then it’s better to say it the other way ‘round….(or not at all).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 05:41:38 PM by Huzo »

Online Tom H

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If you watch too many tube vids, everyone has there own way. Conflicting info on where the bottom of the cam is.

So, as has been previously stated and to add another confirmation.

Rotate engine until you watch the INTAKE valve open and then close. Insert plastic straw through spark plug hole and adjust it as needed to keep it moving upward (depending on the spark plug location, the straw may bend). When it stops going up, then going back down, stop and rotate back a bit until it's farthest up. Now adjust BOTH valves on THAT side.

A tip: If you start with the RH side and make your adjustments, you don't have to turn the engine through as much as if you started with the LH side.

Now just do it!! :smiley:
Tom
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 06:41:29 PM by Tom H »
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Online Huzo

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Pete has told me that there are no quietening ramps on the Norge cams if that is of any benefit.
They are concentric at the base circle, so as close as you can get will be ok.

Online Bulldog9

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If you watch too many tube vids, everyone has there own way. Conflicting info on where the bottom of the cam is.

So, as has been previously stated and to add another confirmation.

Rotate engine until you watch the INTAKE valve open and then close. Insert plastic straw through spark plug hole and adjust it as needed to keep it moving upward (depending on the spark plug location, the straw may bend). When it stops going up, then going back down, stop and rotate back a bit until it's farthest up. Now adjust BOTH valves on THAT side.

A tip: If you start with the RH side and make your adjustments, you don't have to turn the engine through as much as if you started with the LH side.

Now just do it!! :smiley:
Tom

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Offline Scout63

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It is helpful to me to give the pushrods a spin when checking for TDC on compression.  They should spin freely if both valves are closed. I find that putting the bike in a higher gear and bumping the crank using the rear tire (rather than trying to turn the tire continuously) is the easiest way to get the flywheel on a mark.
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Offline wymple

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Spin the wheel until the intake valve opens, then closes...  keep spinning and the piston rises to TDC ----> THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT TDC

Keep spinning the wheel until the exhaust valve opens, then closes... The piston comes to TDC ----> THIS IS THE CORRECT TDC

Both valves should be closed

I'm reading you wrong, I hope. By the time the exhaust valve closes the piston is already near the top & the intake valve is about to open, and will start doing so before the exhaust is tightly seated. Valve overlap.
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Offline lucky phil

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I'm reading you wrong, I hope. By the time the exhaust valve closes the piston is already near the top & the intake valve is about to open, and will start doing so before the exhaust is tightly seated. Valve overlap.

I think he means after the exhaust valve closes and you keep rotating the engine the next time the piston is at TDC it's at the correct TDC.

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Online Huzo

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My God…!
How ******* hard can this be made to sound ?
Put the damn piston at TDC and if you don’t have discernible lash on both rockers, take it around one more revolution.
Done…!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 03:21:08 AM by Huzo »

Offline Kev m

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My God…!
How ******* hard can this be made to sound ?

Everyone processes this crap differently. You throw enough at the wall and hopefully part of it sticks.
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Offline guzziart

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My God…!
How ******* hard can this be made to sound ?
Put the damn piston at TDC and if you don’t have discernible lash on both rockers, take it around one more revolution.
Done…!

 :laugh:......Or watch a few Youtube videos. 

Too bad sstone14 doesn't have a bud nearby to help him along but at least he has WGC.  I guess sometimes it takes 3 guys to screw in a light bulb, one to hold the lightbulb and two to rotate the ladder.  Glad to see him continue to ask questions versus doing something that would result in engine damage.  Keep the patience.
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Online Huzo

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Everyone processes this crap differently. You throw enough at the wall and hopefully part of it sticks.
Yes Kev.sometimes I want to know as much as I can of what led me to the point where I find myself and sometimes…?
I just want the bottom line.
You know, I don’t want or need to know how Beetle and Beard got so good at computer diagnosis of Guzzi electronics, but if they say…DO THIS…!

Well…

I just do it….

Offline Kev m

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Yes Kev.sometimes I want to know as much as I can of what led me to the point where I find myself and sometimes…?
I just want the bottom line.
You know, I don’t want or need to know how Beetle and Beard got so good at computer diagnosis of Guzzi electronics, but if they say…DO THIS…!

Well…

I just do it….


Personally I think things like this all but demand the why. If you understand the why, then you can't F it up and try to adjust them in the wrong position (and we've seen people do that).
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Offline chuck peterson

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This all became clear to me when all this esplaining was done in front of and hands on a motor.

Being a visual type guy the words just pile up in my brain like glue. The written word by Kev is amazing and accurate. Reading it and doing it are 2 different things

I need to see someone go thru this process, then have someone help me do it then try doing myself a few times before it becomes easy peasy

Is there a local guzziti or machanick that could show you? Each state has a rep for mgnoc…give a call



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Offline Pescatore

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I wish for a new forum category for simple maintenance and how-tos.
Each topic would be very specific and easy to find.
Updates could be made through the moderators, so the topics stay
organized and accurate.
Would that break the camp fire mentality?  Too much work to maintain or just another misleading internet resource?
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I wish for a new forum category for simple maintenance and how-tos.
Each topic would be very specific and easy to find.
Updates could be made through the moderators, so the topics stay
organized and accurate.
Would that break the camp fire mentality?  Too much work to maintain or just another misleading internet resource?

 :thumb:
The Modern Vespa site has a FAQ page with tons of information similar to what you mention. Each section is written by a member considered an expert in that field. The FAQ also includes manual downloads for various models and answers basic noob questions.

https://modernvespa.com/forum/wiki-faq
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Online Tom H

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Offline Kev m

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I wish for a new forum category for simple maintenance and how-tos.

But what would we do with all that time on our hands when we no longer have to type the same stuff over and over...  :laugh: :boozing: :laugh:
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Offline PeteS

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My God…!
How ******* hard can this be made to sound ?
Put the damn piston at TDC and if you don’t have discernible lash on both rockers, take it around one more revolution.
Done…!

Agreed. This is all you really need to know. The only thing I would add on my two Guzzis, the LM850 and ‘98 EV at TDC you are not on the base circle of the cam so its important to be at TDC and not a few degrees off. You can use a straw. I use a piece of 12 gauge solid copper wire in the spark plug hole to creep up to TDC then stop at the flywheel mark.
This may or may not apply to newer bikes.

Pete

Online sstone14

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I just finished a huge reply detailing it all in your other thread.

But WTF I'll copy it here.


For newbies I also think it is best that they watch the intake and exhaust valves open and close a rotation or two to figure out if the piston is at TDC of the Exhaust or Compression strokes.

Forgive me, I'm going into work mode and assuming nothing on your part.

Remember a 4-stroke engine works with 4 different phases of piston movement with regards to the valve train (camshaft movement).

The crankshaft moves TWO full revolutions for every ONE revolution of the Cam.

That means Piston DOWN, piston UP, Piston DOWN, Piston UP for one cycle of the valve train.

The phases are (and this is circular so it doesn't really matter where we start):

* Power Stroke (piston down, burning fuel, making power)
* Exhaust Stroke (exhaust valve opens, piston moves up pushing out expired gasses)
* Intake Stroke (intake valve opens, piston moves down drawing in fresh gasses)
* Compression Stroke (piston up, compresses gasses)

Cycle repeats.

This means when you're rotating the crankshaft (via tire or rotor nut) you watch. If the valve at the front of the head (closest to the exhaust pipe, I.E. the Exhaust Valve) opens and the piston is coming UP you're on the EXHAUST STROKE you'll need to go around again.

The Exhaust valve will close and the Intake (the one at the back of the head, closest to the throttle body) will open as you go around. You're on the Intake stroke now.

As the Intake Valve closes the piston will be heading up again on the COMPRESSION stroke. This is it.

When the piston gets to the top of the travel you'll be a TDC (Top Dead Center) of the COMPRESSION stroke.

This is the point where most motors (including all Guzzis I've ever worked on) have their lifters on the base of the camshaft lobes. This the point of most lash/play.

This is the point you check both the valves on THAT cylinder. Why this point, because only during compression can you be sure BOTH valves should be closed. They have to be, or the gasses wouldn't compress. On some motors, especially multi-cylinder, you may adjust valves separately, say exhaust of two and intake of two at a certain point where they are all closed at the same moment, then turn and do the others at another point. But this is a simple motor, no need to over-complicate it. Do one cylinder at a time, at the point the crankshaft has reached TDC compression for THAT piston and you're good, then find the point on the crank/valve train for the other.

You can make marks on the alternator rotor to help you find that point again easily, just remember that any mark for the CRANKSHAFT will only tell you that the piston is at the top of travel and NOT whether the valve train is in the Exhaust or Compression stroke (the valve positions will tell you that). Anytime you see the intake open and then close and the piston starts moving UP then you're on Compression.

Repeat for other cylinder.

Bob's your uncle.

Back to writing a new Kymco OEM manual for me....

Thanks, Kev, I appreciate. This is exactly the post that I need. I'm a complete noob but seeking to learn as much about wrenching on my own as possible, as the wrenching I've done so far has been very interesting and satisfying.
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Online Cam3512

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I didn't read every word in this thread, so I'll mention the valve adjustments should be done on a stone cold engine.  Let it sit overnight if you're riding it.
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Online sstone14

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My God…!
How ******* hard can this be made to sound ?
Put the damn piston at TDC and if you don’t have discernible lash on both rockers, take it around one more revolution.
Done…!

What do you mean by "lash"?

I appreciate the response and I'm definitely piecing together my understanding of this stuff, but I am completely new to this, so the assuming that I know absolutely nothing (including most terminology) that Kev did, was very helpful.
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Offline Kev m

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What do you mean by "lash"?

I appreciate the response and I'm definitely piecing together my understanding of this stuff, but I am completely new to this, so the assuming that I know absolutely nothing (including most terminology) that Kev did, was very helpful.

Lash or play or freeplay = some amount of free movement.

Like the amount you can pull on your clutch lever before the cable actually starts to pull/release the clutch.

Or in this case, the fact that there should be a very small amount of movement at the rocker arm if you push/pull on it when the valve is closed.

This is actually WHAT you are adjusting with valve adjustments. You're making sure there is a specific gap between the rocker arm adjuster and the valve when the valve is closed. If there was no gap, you would risk the valve not seating properly. Then it couldn't cool off by transferring heat from combustion to the cylinder head and it would burn up. Not to mention a leaky valve would cause problems with those 4-cycles the piston/valve train go through. It wouldn't work properly.
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Online Bulldog9

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What do you mean by "lash"?

I appreciate the response and I'm definitely piecing together my understanding of this stuff, but I am completely new to this, so the assuming that I know absolutely nothing (including most terminology) that Kev did, was very helpful.

Lash,

Sorry if I missed it, but what Model Guzzi do you have?

Lash is as Kev said 'freeplay' or the gap between the valve stem and rocker arm where they make contact.

Regardless, this is stone cold simple to do once you understand where Top Dead Center is, and how to get there. Just take your time.

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Online Huzo

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What do you mean by "lash"?

I appreciate the response and I'm definitely piecing together my understanding of this stuff, but I am completely new to this, so the assuming that I know absolutely nothing (including most terminology) that Kev did, was very helpful.
Oh, ok mate.
“Lash” is the term most thrown around in the ‘States, over here we call it “clearance”.
It is the term given to the amount that the end of the rocker arm (under the tappets cover), clears the end of the valve stem.
In the Norge, it is 0.004” for the inlet (rear valve) and 0.006” for the exhaust valve (front valve).
When you are at TDC on the correct stroke, you will feel a very tiny ability to move the rocker up and down. It’s very little but you CAN feel it.
That is where you insert the feeler gauge.
Be careful not to confuse inches with mm when doing your reading.

I could have been a lot more detailed in my description of the top dead centre thing, but thought you’d appreciate brevity.
No one here is out to belittle or patronise you.
We all want the best for each other, you are doing the right thing asking many questions… Keep it up and enjoy.

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