NO JOY YET< No Cranking issue in cooler weather

[old head]

measured .1 ohm meter on my jumper cables.

hooked one end to the lug on the starter, one end to the battery lug, and it fired right up, no clicks.

Disconnected the jumper cable and it just clicks.  So now I know its definitely the ground connection.  It has to be the cable as I didn't disconnect anything.

I will clean the cable and connections one more time just be sure, but it looks like time for a new ground cable.

Old Head

[Wayne Orwig]

Okay,  my bud came by and retapped the lug where the ground cables are connected to the starter.  I cleaned all the cables, and my ohm meter shows 6.8 from battery to lug through the connections.  Meter shows 6.8 from battery to engine and from battery to starter.  Maybe I need to reclean the cables, bolt, and bases again.

I checked my Jeep from battery to engine block and its only .2 to .3 at several places.  So it would seem that 6.8 on the Breva is high resistance.  Is a 6.8 high enough to keep it from cranking?  Maybe the ground cable is corroded inside where I can't see.

I guess I can use a jumper cable to see if it cranks with a jumper cable to the battery and lug bypassing the ground cable, or trying a different ground to complete the circuit.

I charged the battery on Monday with my 2amp charger and it only showed 12.1 volts today, and of course all I got was clicks at the starter, its about 51 this morning.  Dash shows 12.1 volts, meter shows 12.2.   I didn't check the battery when the charger cut off, so I put it back on the charger and will check when the charger cuts off.

could be a couple things combined to keep it from cranking, I suppose.

Old Head

I may go have the battery rechecked on Monday as Autozone said it was good, but I question it as I don't think it would be that low on charge with not being connected and just being charged a few days ago.  However, I need to check the voltage after its charged to compare the charge with the drop in voltage.

6.8 is ridiculously high. In this case it is like an open circuit.

Note, you are dealing with a resistance so low, a normal meter will have trouble measure it correctly.

[old head]

6.8 is ridiculously high. In this case it is like an open circuit.

Note, you are dealing with a resistance so low, a normal meter will have trouble measure it correctly.

Thanks Wayne, I had no idea what it should be, but when I checked my Jeep and saw the huge difference in reading I figured it was as problem.  Its good to learn new stuff.

[Wayne Orwig]

Thanks Wayne, I had no idea what it should be, but when I checked my Jeep and saw the huge difference in reading I figured it was as problem.  Its good to learn new stuff.

With a regular meter, touching the probes together, and measuring the ground wire, should give very close to the same reading.

[old head]

cleaned ground cables, again.  Now it reads .1 from starter lug to battery lug.  only clicked 2 times and it started, so that's an improvement, but still not right yet.
I checked the positive cable it reads .1 on the meter also.

the charger said fully charger, the reads 12.5v on the meter and on the dash readout.  That looks low to me, I thought batteries would be closer to 13+ volts when fully charged.

Old Head

[flower_king001]

cleaned ground cables, again.  Now it reads .1 from starter lug to battery lug.  only clicked 2 times and it started, so that's an improvement, but still not right yet.
I checked the positive cable it reads .1 on the meter also.

the charger said fully charger, the reads 12.5v on the meter and on the dash readout.  That looks low to me, I thought batteries would be closer to 13+ volts when fully charged.

Old Head

Been there...done all of this and in the end I had a bad battery. You keep looking at volts and not amps! I'll give you 3 batteries (I need to bring to recycle center) sitting in my garage that will show good voltage but will not crank to specs. For your Breva 1100 get yourself a Yuasa AGM YUAM6220C battery..NOT off the shelf fully charged but dry and prep it yourself in the correct fashion that has been laid out in this thread. I have been there in the same situation last year and ride/start by bike in 25 degree on up weather without and issue. Don't trust what the dash meter is telling you as at times I have seen it read 11.5 volts and start in 25 degree weather.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Can you get a reading across the battery, not on the leads but directly on the battery terminals without touching the terminal lugs, poke the sharp points into the terminals.
Then while holding your meter in place try the starter, if it doesn't fall below 11 it has plenty of Voltage to start if the Voltage dips its too much load for the battery.

Did you ever answer Wayne's question about the click you hear, the quiet click of the relay under the seat or the clunk of the starter engaging.

I don't think its so in your case because you have had it out several times but It's possible to get a build up of lead oxide on the terminals, this can effectively insulate the battery from the leads, scrape the connections and smear with vaseline and it won't happen. This Lead oxide is often what you see when you try to measure the leads, the oxide layer is insulating the terminal from the meter resulting in several Ohms, as Wayne says it should be as low as the meter will read but you may have to jab the meter tips into the metal.
 
The Breva is well known for suffering from Startus Interrupts, run a new wire from the starter solenoid spade to the battery then you can touch it onto the battery and eliminate the wiring as a fault.

The Veleo starter magnets can come loose and jamb the starter but that would be accompanied by a good healthy clunk from the starter

Another thing I have seen is a bad ground, there are several and sometimes it's only a weak one holding the battery to chassis, several Guzzis I know of have caught fire through this.

As Kiwi Dave says if you run separate wire from the starter solenoid that you can touch on the battery it will eliminate any of the wires that cause Startus Interrupts, this will quickly eliminate most common faults, all you have is the battery, the starter and the interconnecting wires.

As if there are not enough starter faults I recently saw a loose spade connector on the solenoid, make sure that's nice and tight.

There are a few other possibilities, batteries can be quite tricky at times.

[Wayne Orwig]

cleaned ground cables, again.  Now it reads .1 from starter lug to battery lug.  only clicked 2 times and it started, so that's an improvement, but still not right yet.
I checked the positive cable it reads .1 on the meter also.

the charger said fully charger, the reads 12.5v on the meter and on the dash readout.  That looks low to me, I thought batteries would be closer to 13+ volts when fully charged.

The .1 ohms on the meter does not mean much. At the 100 amps give or take the starter needs, that is a 10 volt drop. But as mentioned, a normal meter can't really read it. Quicker and more useful is as Roy pointed out. Read the voltage at the battery post. See what it drops to when you try to crank it.

A faint relay click under the seat and no loud CLANK of the solenoid, startup interruptus.

[flower_king001]

If you think you might have a negative earth issue(I thought I did) is to run another ground wire from the battery to one of the bolts on the gear box.

You stated at the start of this thread:
However, I got tired of this so I a ordered new AGM online, 18 amp hour.  It came with a 11.5 volt charge when I opened it, so I charged it with a 2amp charger.  It charged for about 4 hours and ended up with a 12.6 on my meter.  I installed the battery, cleaning the connections, although they weren't corroded.  the dash showed 12.6 volts.

Note, you purchased a AGM battery online that already had acid and charged. You have no idea how long or what went into the preparation of this battery. Again note, be there done that! Go and buy yourself a new Yuasa AGM battery that has the acid in a separate/sealed container. Place the battery on your bench and remove the fill ports and place them to the side. Now fill the batteries chambers with the new acid from the container slowly and place a clean rag on top of the battery for 24 hours. Just let the battery sit for 24 hours with NO charge on it. After 24 hours (leaving the battery ports still open with a rag on top) hook up a small rate trickle charger overnight till fully charged.

Old Head...last year I went through everything you were doing and kept saying my battery is new and good but it wasn't. I finally listened to my good friend and Breva 1100 owner since new and have been worry free with starting ever since no matter what the outside temps are. A sign of a BAD battery is no cranking issue in cold weather...you are showing good volts but forget about the volts it's how many AMPS that actual battery has.

[Tom H]

measured .1 ohm meter on my jumper cables.

hooked one end to the lug on the starter, one end to the battery lug, and it fired right up, no clicks.

Disconnected the jumper cable and it just clicks.  So now I know its definitely the ground connection.  It has to be the cable as I didn't disconnect anything.

I will clean the cable and connections one more time just be sure, but it looks like time for a new ground cable.

Old Head

If I'm reading this right. You used a set of automotive jumper cables and attached one of the pair of cables to the starter and one to the battery. From the description, it looks like you attached to the positive terminals? Set up like this it started right up. Removed the jumper cable and it just clicks again.

Did you use both positive and ground cables when you tested? If so, try only one of the pair.

As mentioned, what is clicking??? The solenoid on the starter or the relay under the seat?? This will help the guys that know startus interruptus and how to solve it.

With this said. I chased my HD battery issue thinking it was a bad starter, bad battery wires or their connections. I also tried a new set of car battery cables to see if it would crank right. It turned out to be a battery without enough cranking amps.

If you used the jumper cables like I think you did, I would say it's a bad cable. But, another test might be to use your jumper cables and hook them to you Jeep battery and the bike battery. If you still just get a click, then it's a cable. If it starts right up, it's most likly the battery.

Hope this helps a bit, good luck,
Tom

[old head]

lets see

I did the startus interruptus a few years ago, kit from MPH.

the click is definitely coming from the starter, its a heavy sound, not the usual light click of relay.

Each time I touch a battery connnection, it gets light coat of grease after tightening.

I will check the battery as suggested, and report back.  I still think its a bad ground, just has that feel to it.  No rhyme or reason, just feeling.   Although, I am not confident in the battery based on the voltage readings after charging, and checking the voltage after a couple of days. 

 If I jump it off a car battery it fires right up, no issues.  Well, that's what I did in Dallas when it was 29.  As I said, I would start if I restarted right after turning it off, but more than a few minutes no start.

I hadn't thought of running a wire directly to the solenoid, done that many times on cars, old age I guess.


Old Head

[Tom H]

lets see

 If I jump it off a car battery it fires right up, no issues.  Well, that's what I did in Dallas when it was 29.  As I said, I would start if I restarted right after turning it off, but more than a few minutes no start.


Old Head

Hate to say it, but it sounds like the battery to me. One last thing you might try. Remove the battery cables from your battery and use the jumper cables from the bike cables to your Jeep battery. If it starts, I'm really thinking battery.

My 2014 F150 had a battery issue where the truck would tell me to start or turn the key off...low battery. Both Ford and O'Rielly Auto said the battery was fine. The battery had a charge indicator on it that would never go to green even after many hours of charging. Bought a new battery and no problems after 2 years.

Good luck,
Tom

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you connect your meter to chassis and dig the tip into the battery Negative terminal (not the lug) it should read zero Volts
When you press start it will tell you how much Voltage is being lost in the Negative lead, the lower it reads the better.
You can do the same for the Positive lead, connect one lead to the larger hot lead at the solenoid, jab the other into the battery + terminal

I wouldn't expect a combined Voltage drop much more than 0.5 Volts.

[old head]

update

I ran a wire directly to the solenoid and it cranks everytime.  Tried it about 8 times, and every time it cranks.
put the stock wire back on and all I get are clicks, heavy but still clicks.

pulled the fuse at the MPH hot wire, it checks good.  checked power at relay on the female side and it shows  same voltage as battery.

There is some corrosion on the male ends of the relay and some on the female ends of the plug that fits the relay.  I disconnected the MPH bypass, and hooked the relay up the factory had it and I get heavy clicks.  Swapped a relay with another one, with MPH bypass in in line, same result, just clicks.

So I assume not enough amperage getting to the solenoid.  Should I replace the relay?  I tried to sand the male connectors but its hard to get in there with paper and apply any kind of pressure.

the battery voltage was 12.8 and dropped to 8.5 - 9 when cranking, but returned to over 12 volts when I stopped cranking.  Does that indicate a bad battery?

Old Head

[Kiwi_Roy]

Are we talking an 06 Breva 1100
I would wire it in directly without the MPH relay


No doubt it's the corrosion you mention
The MPH fix is a good solution for someone who's reluctant to change anything but it's adding more parts.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2005_Breva_1100.gif

Look at relay (3), click on the diagram a second time to zoom in.
See the yellow wire below the relay, that comes through a fuse from the ignition switch I call this the weak yellow wire, The MPH fix replaces that feed with a new one.
Assuming your MPH relay has had its day.
Remove the extra socket and wiring.
Snip the yellow wire at a point below relay socket (3) where you can join to it a No 14 directly back to the battery through a 15 or 20 Amp fuse. (you might re-use the one that came with the kit)
So now you have a Strong Yellow feed to relay (3)
Replace the relay, I find they never make good contact again after corrosion.
Tape the other half of the yellow wire coming from the switch (9) so it can't short to ground.

While you are about it check the spade connector at the solenoid it may be corroded as well if so use some new parts and then dip it in Vaseline so the grease gets into the crimp joint as well, that will stop further corrosion. I'm going to check these out they may be a more robust solution, there has to be a better solution than those cheap Auto store connectors.
https://techspan.ca/details/techspan-electrical-terminals-high-temperature-terminals-289
They should make a good connection slathered with some grease and a sleeve.

The Starter solenoid is a hungry little devil, it would like 45 to 50 Amps but just for a split second. There are two coils involved, a 10 Amp and a 40 Amp, Luigi forgot to show us that one.
One of these days the factory will wake up and realize it's been wrong all these years LOL

Actually after all these years I realized the number plate light has been trying to give us the message, it's powered by the same weak yellow feed.
If you watch that while someone pushes the start and just get a click you will see it dim right down but if it does manage to crank it should come right back up.

[old head]

Kiwi Roy

Thanks, that seems pretty simple.
I did notice a little buildup on the solenoid spade, so I cleaned it up.  I measured the ohms from the wire inside the relay connector to the spade and it was .1 so it seems to okay.

should I dip the factory connector in some water with baking soda, to help clean out the connection.

Old Head

[Kiwi_Roy]

At 40 odd amps it doesn't take much resistance before you lose a lot of Voltage, baking soda might help but be prepared to replace the lug and perhaps some wire if it's corroded.
I have found those cheap spade connectors sold everywhere seem to work lose quite quickly, I think it may be a combination of vibration, high current and weather.
If in your junk you can find a decent Nth American spade lug on a few feet of wire I would splice that onto the existing wire,

Normally the connectors are crimped to the wire dry, with moisture the joint starts to corrode, once that happens it's game over. If you dip the wire in Vaseline or any other grease for that matter before crimping the grease keeps out the Oxygen and moisture so it lasts much longer before corrosion sets in. I do this with all wires in a wet place like around the starter or tail-light area.

[old head]

I spent some time today going through the connections.  Even with it being almost 80, it would not crank, just clunk, clunk, clunk.  IF I jump the solenoid, it cranks every time.

I cleaned the relay with some fine sandpaper and followed it up with some OC contact cleaner.  Went through the female side.  Couldn't really get sand paper very deep in the plug but did spray it down a couple of times.

I swapped out a relay from another connector that wasn't corroded and no change. 
Tried with the factory connections, leaving out the MPH fix, and it was not as strong a clunk, faint.  I could hear and feel both relays engaging.

after all that, it will crank now after one or two clunks, so progress, but it is much warmer now.
I am going to order some relays and replace the ones I have.  Suggestions? 

Seems I remember someone bought a relay and used the solenoid wire as the trigger to a relay setup, that way no wires are cut. 

Old Head

[cleatusj]

Just use a thin eyeglass screwdriver, from the relay side, to depress the tong and pull the yellow wire and terminal from the block. Now add a new terminal with wire, to the terminal block, going direct to battery. Do not forget to tape off the old yellow terminal to keep from grounding. If this fixes the problem, just add a fuse and ride.

I do realize Roy said the same from a different angle.

[Diploman]

While lithium batteries are known to lose cranking power when cold, there is a simple trick to help overcome this deficiency:  warm the battery.  To do this, simply turn on the bike's headlight high beam for about a minute before cranking.  Powering the headlight briefly will cause the battery to heat up enough to deliver a considerably stronger cranking effort than when stone cold.   

[Kiwi Dave]

While lithium batteries are known to lose cranking power when cold, there is a simple trick to help overcome this deficiency:  warm the battery.  To do this, simply turn on the bike's headlight high beam for about a minute before cranking.  Powering the headlight briefly will cause the battery to heat up enough to deliver a considerably stronger cranking effort than when stone cold.

One small problem.  The headlight is not on until the motor is running.   

[Diploman]

Bummer about the headlight on newer Guzzi's.   My experience is with 80's-era Guzzi's whose light switch allows the headlight to be turned off and on independently of the motor.  A lithium battery works very well with these bikes.

[Kiwi_Roy]

And the Lithium battery is no cure for Startus Interrupts.

[old head]

I took the relay, MPH adaptor, and cleaned the female and male parts with vinegar and salt, rinse with baking soda solution then rinsed and dried.  I have to say the connectors look fabulous.  I did the same with the solenoid female end.

I left off the relay and ran a hot wire directly to the wire in the relay harness that runs to the solenoid, and it cranked every I tried it.

I swapped around the relay again, but still only get clunks with a relay in place. ????  WTH...

I am ordering 3 new relays and going to clean all the connectors the same way

[old head]

got new relays from MG cycles and plugged then in... 

no change.

Just to rehash.  cleaned and scrubbed all connectors, all bright and shinny.
if i put a jump wire from battery to solenoid wire in the connector it cranks.

I am really scratching my head now.  Could it be the female connector from battery to relay spade not making good enough contact, as it sure looks bright and shiney?

anyone know how those female connector comes out of the plastic connector to the relay,  its not obvious to me

Old Head

[Wayne Orwig]

Just to rehash.  cleaned and scrubbed all connectors, all bright and shinny.
if i put a jump wire from battery to solenoid wire in the connector it cranks.

 

When you say 'to solenoid', do you mean to the small spade lug on the solenoid?

If so, have you measured the voltage on it when trying to start it?

[old head]

 

When you say 'to solenoid', do you mean to the small spade lug on the solenoid?

both ways,   If I run a wire to the solenoid spade connector, on the starter directly, it cranks everytime.
If I put a wire from battery to connector where the relay plugs in it cranks everytime.
this indicates to me that the soleniod to connector connections is good>


If so, have you measured the voltage on it when trying to start it?
same as battery

 I just measured it while trying the starter button, I get 11.6 volts, same as battery. Its been a week with me playing with it, so I guess the battery has discharged some.  I put the charger on it and let me bring it up to a good charge and see what it does.

I thought I would pull the female connector out of the MPH connector and see if it was clean on the inside.  When I tried to extract it the wire pulled free from the female connector.  Maybe this was an issue.  I will clean it, reattach it and reinstall it and see what happens after the battery charges.

[Wayne Orwig]

I just measured it while trying the starter button, I get 11.6 volts, same as battery. Its been a week with me playing with it, so I guess the battery has discharged some.  I put the charger on it and let me bring it up to a good charge and see what it does.
I thought I would pull the female connector out of the MPH connector and see if it was clean on the inside.  When I tried to extract it the wire pulled free from the female connector.  Maybe this was an issue.  I will clean it, reattach it and reinstall it and see what happens after the battery charges.

Wait.

You get 11.6 on the spade lug at the starter solenoid, and it does not crank.

But if you jumper from the battery to the spade lug, it cranks?

If that is correct, then the solenoid is sticking or something. 11.6 should be more than enough to pull the solenoid.

[Testarossa]

Remember that solenoid contacts can corrode INSIDE the solenoid housing. It's possible to take the solenoid apart to clean the inside contacts but probably easier just to buy a new solenoid. Also consider something amiss inside the starter (what brand starter BTW?) If worn bearings the shaft can drift and the rotor can hit something. I restored an old Bosch just by cleaning out 20 years' accumulation of road mung that created a lot of drag on the rotor. Possible that cold weather shrinks whatever is binding up in there, or just that there's not enough amperage at low temps to turn a draggy starter.

[old head]

Wait.

You get 11.6 on the spade lug at the starter solenoid, and it does not crank.
yeah, just a clunk.  same as before.

But if you jumper from the battery to the spade lug, it cranks?
didn't try that today, it did before I started all this cleaning and replacing relays.

If that is correct, then the solenoid is sticking or something. 11.6 should be more than enough to pull the solenoid.

well, its on a charger so I will try again tomorrow.  fingers crossed that its just the battery too weak.

Testarossa
before I started down this odyssey, it would crank with a jumper wire to the solenoid from the battery everytime I tried, no clunks at all.  I suppose it could be the solenoid/STARTER, and if the cleaning and new relays don't do it, that will be next I suppose.  It was too late to try it again today. 
Time will tell.

Old Head