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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: texasmoto on September 19, 2022, 11:24:44 AM

Title: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 19, 2022, 11:24:44 AM
Howdy   :cool:

Yesterday I picked up this ol' Guzzi for a couple hundred bucks. It has a title and doesn't look too trashed. Let another project begin!

I have a little bit of experience restoring old Honda CBs and one Honda CX. They were all really easy to get running again. I was hoping this would be a 'clean the carbs and put a new battery in and it'll run' kind of deal. Hah!

This bike is in a weird state of disrepair. It's got 30k miles. The previous owner didn't have too much to say, just that his son started to fix it. Apparently it ran great 20 years ago (didn't they all...)

The "damages":
- There is some corrosion in the left cylinder. The plug was out and the piston has rust on it. The motor isn't frozen. I think the chrome pistons are in there, I put a magnet in and got nothing.
- Removed/disassembled the handlebar switches.
- Disconnected some wires on right hand side and removed the headlight
- Disconnected petcocks from gas tank
- Left cap off the front brake master cylinder
- Rotors are rusted
- Spoke wheels are rusty
- The seat is missing hardware to attach it to the frame.

Besides the handlebar controls, it looks like everything is there for the most part.

I'm not sure where exactly to start on this restoration. Before starting on the path I want to ask if I should. Vintage motorcycles are cool, but I was all-in on purchasing a newer Guzzi for about $5000. Although, reviews I've seen online comparing the older ones vs the newer ones do show a strong preference for the older ones! Is this a year and model worth restoring?

Assuming so, here is what my strategy is:
I'm not committed to a full rebuild down to the frame. I like the little bit of patina it has, and the gas tank is incredible condition. I just want to get it reliably and safely riding. The engine could probably use a polish but there are no major scratches or deterioration. It's just not 'shiny'.

I have the factory service manual and a Haynes manual. These definitely don't seem as thorough as what I've seen with Japanese bikes. The Honda guides are step-by-step. At a quick glance these manuals are more along the lines of, "adjust to these specs and inspect it."  :grin:


So my current to-do list is:

1) Replace pistons. Question: Can I do this with the motor in the frame? Besides the factory service manual, are there additional guides I should consider? Will I need to send the head and pistons to a machine shop?
I'm assuming that this will also involve replacing gaskets, lapping valves, adjusting valve clearances, and setting ignition timing. 

2) Figure out what is going on with the electrical system. At the very least this will mean replacement handlebar switches (KZ900 seems to match?), new battery and whatever else I may find along the way. Watch this space! 

3) Fluids and carburetor clean - set float height but otherwise leave it all stock. Includes air filter. Oil filter.

4) Check ignition coils, replace spark plugs.
 
* At this point I would want to do a compression test. Let's assume it's good

5) Replace/restore brake system. I'll get a new master cylinder, new pads, maybe a new rotor. Rebuild the calipers if possible.

6) New tires. The rims are dirty but not rusty.

7) Get the seat permanently attached.

8) Replace/rebuild front and rear suspension

9) Done??


(https://i.ibb.co/kGN2zWt/IMG-5801.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGN2zWt)

(https://i.ibb.co/BCWNz8X/IMG-5800.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BCWNz8X)

(https://i.ibb.co/dJ7BF7s/IMG-5793.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJ7BF7s)

(https://i.ibb.co/rd8Z6fs/IMG-5798.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rd8Z6fs)

Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 19, 2022, 11:26:02 AM
Here is an imgur link to some of the photos

https://imgur.com/a/qTPfCsq
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Huzo on September 19, 2022, 12:08:12 PM
Hi there and welcome.
There have been numerous “discussions” here regarding the pro’s and con’s of restoring a (relatively) “low value” bike.
I do not subscribe to the theory that says it’ll “end up costing more than it’s worth”, one bit. If you enjoy the process and do not necessarily expect to get back your outlay, then you simply cannot lose.
The “worth” of the bike is determined by the purchaser/new owner. My Norge is “worth” AUD 5,000 but AUD 50,000 would not secure it to a new owner.
Looking forward to your journey.
Just for the fun of it, search
“Fence post Guzzi” on this forum.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 19, 2022, 12:17:43 PM
Yeah I'm not trying to flip it or make money on it. That's not the barrier here.

It's more a question of if the juice is worth the squeeze. Are the old Moto Guzzi's considerably different than the newer ones to make it worth a restoration? I've never ridden one, new or old - and that's a lot of faith going into a restoration!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Huzo on September 19, 2022, 12:27:01 PM
Yeah I'm not trying to flip it or make money on it. That's not the barrier here.

It's more a question of if the juice is worth the squeeze. Are the old Moto Guzzi's considerably different than the newer ones to make it worth a restoration? I've never ridden one, new or old - and that's a lot of faith going into a restoration!
I had a Mk 2 Le Mans for a few years.
It didn’t stop, it didn’t “go”, uncomfortable, steered like the Exxon Valdeez, I left it home and rode the “good ones”.
Sold it in 5 minutes for more than I paid.
(https://i.ibb.co/gRpNMHH/8-D41-B128-8897-4-D53-942-C-2-F417-AD9-B825.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gRpNMHH)

(https://i.ibb.co/CHwh9W3/0-D46-D22-D-A9-A0-4-C56-A63-F-98612-A8-B794-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CHwh9W3)

(https://i.ibb.co/h2S7M0Z/1984-DBF3-2177-4-F8-C-BA93-2-EB99-D11-F7-A0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h2S7M0Z)

The new owner is welcome to it and he’s happy.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: cliffrod on September 19, 2022, 12:39:37 PM
Welcome to WG. 

Plan on a full engine strip & inspection, then fixing or replacing everything as needed..  The engine will have chrome plated cylinder bores, not chrome pistons.  Chrome fails, so it has to be addressed.  Upgraded cylinder, piston & ring kits or replating your original cylinders with Nikasil are the two fixes for that issue.  The bigger issue is how much damage has or hasn’t been done by loose chrome bits in the oil impacting the rest of the engine.  Might be very good inside or it may be catastrophic.  Given the bike was parked and left out of service for ?? reason, it may be the latter…

The website ThisOldTractor is a great resource for related Tonti-frame Guzzi info for your bike.  There’s a couple of recent discussions here on the subject, including this thread.  It’s a must-read-

 https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0)

Your bike, your rules.  You don’t have to fix it all the way but if you keep it and plan to ride it, it will need to fixed all the way or it won’t last long. Doing the cylinders, pistons & rings and then assuming everything else will just be ok isn’t the best strategy with these early engines.  Btdt. 

If you’re worried about being upside$$$ down in the bike, plan on losing money (depending upon the level of resto vs simple daily rider fixing) or selling the bike as is.  My best friend and I always joked about our Italian bikes saying, “if you can’t afford to fix it, you can’t afford to won it.”   Maybe you won’t lose money if you do all the work yourself.  But it won’t be $500 including tires and you’re on the road like some old bikes.

Long ago I built my V7 Sport (all in pieces, frozen engine) with no prior Guzzi experience.  Glad I did it, but you have to go into it with a somewhat open wallet..


Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 19, 2022, 01:34:57 PM
Welcome to WG. 

Plan on a full engine strip & inspection, then fixing or replacing everything as needed..  The engine will have chrome plated cylinder bores, not chrome pistons.  Chrome fails, so it has to be addressed.  Upgraded cylinder, piston & ring kits or replating your original cylinders with Nikasil are the two fixes for that issue.  The bigger issue is how much damage has or hasn’t been done by loose chrome bits in the oil impacting the rest of the engine.  Might be very good inside or it may be catastrophic.  Given the bike was parked and left out of service for ?? reason, it may be the latter…

The website ThisOldTractor is a great resource for related Tonti-frame Guzzi info for your bike.  There’s a couple of recent discussions here on the subject, including this thread.  It’s a must-read-

 https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0 (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=115513.0)

Your bike, your rules.  You don’t have to fix it all the way but if you keep it and plan to ride it, it will need to fixed all the way or it won’t last long. Doing the cylinders, pistons & rings and then assuming everything else will just be ok isn’t the best strategy with these early engines.  Btdt. 

If you’re worried about being upside$$$ down in the bike, plan on losing money (depending upon the level of resto vs simple daily rider fixing) or selling the bike as is.  My best friend and I always joked about our Italian bikes saying, “if you can’t afford to fix it, you can’t afford to won it.”   Maybe you won’t lose money if you do all the work yourself.  But it won’t be $500 including tires and you’re on the road like some old bikes.

Long ago I built my V7 Sport (all in pieces, frozen engine) with no prior Guzzi experience.  Glad I did it, but you have to go into it with a somewhat open wallet..

Appreciate you all weighing in on this. I'm leaning towards putting it up for sale again because I'm not sure if a strip is too rich for my blood.

My biggest concern is a lack of clear information. Forums are fantastic but can be confusing as a newbie. I don't have enough experience in looking at engine components and determining if they are in good shape or not. I was hoping the factory service manual would be better than what it is!

Is there a literal step-by-step guide from removing the engine to rebuilding it? If so, I'd feel a lot more confident about proceeding.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: cliffrod on September 19, 2022, 02:25:49 PM
Well before the internet, I rebuilt mine (although without adequate info to do the entire engine as I now recommend) with a factory manual, a Haynes manual a general knowledge of automotive engines and lots & lots of beer.   I did a partial fix, then got to do a complete more expensive fix within a short period of time.  If I had known, I would have only done it once.

Now, you can join a forum like this one and have access all the knowledge needed to fill any gaps.  These engines are not complicated.  They just need to be properly serviced.   

If you’re going to flip the bike, post an ad and sell it.  Lots of seemingly cheap Guzzi people here, mainly because we know how much it costs to put a bike like yours on the road. 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on September 19, 2022, 04:09:18 PM

Is there a literal step-by-step guide from removing the engine to rebuilding it? If so, I'd feel a lot more confident about proceeding.

Search "crabbing the frame" here, that will answer the "how to remove the engine".

Here's a nice "blog" on rebuilding a T3 engine:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith.html
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: berniebee on September 19, 2022, 07:02:15 PM
Not worth restoring this piece of crap. Because I like you, I'll take it off your hands for $150. Cash. :evil:
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Dave Swanson on September 19, 2022, 07:56:55 PM
To sort that bike properly, and I'm not talking a restoration, you will have a 3 to 5K cash outlay and shed lots of blood and tears along the way. 

I have a 1980 T3 and a 2021 V7-850.  Both have that unmistakable Guzzi feel in spades.  I restored my T3 and went all the way with it.  I've had every individual piece in my hand and I am completely upside down on it, and could care less.  I love it. 

The V7-850 is just about the same as the day it rolled out of Cadre Cycle.  I have hardly turned a wrench on it. I love it

The 2021 is head and shoulders above the 1980 in every category you can try to measure.  Those intangibles that you can't put on a chart the T3 has by the bucketful, but the new one is not devoid of these un-measureable qualities either.

From reading your posts and reading between the lines, I think you will be much better off shifting the T3 and finding a late model Guzzi. 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 19, 2022, 09:11:49 PM
Alright you bastards, just point me to this post when I'm $5k in and despondent. Thanks to the good community this seems to be, and the lowball $150 offer (which actually isn't far off from how much I bought it for) I. AM. IN

What's a bit of a rebuild between friends? I'm a vintage motorcycle enthusiast through and through. I looked at some 2015 models today and they just seem boring. Yes, I know they are wonderful machines and that makes more sense, but when has a motorcycle ever actually made much sense?  :grin: I have never just bought my way into a motorcycle! And yeah they were all Japanese but I figured those out. Moto Guzzi feels like upgrading to the next level. More difficult, more rewarding.

If any of you are near Austin, TX I'll trade you a 6 pack of Modelo for parts and labor any time. Ol' gal is already on the harbor freight lift in the garage.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: fotoguzzi on September 19, 2022, 09:52:02 PM
More rewarding yes, more difficult than Japan? Nope. You’ll be amazed at how robust the machine is when you tear down that motor. There are very few special tools needed. Most parts can still be had. But for sure you need new cylinder bores and a complete inspection of the bottom end. How many miles are on it?
Here’s another really cool thing about the Tonti frame Guzzi.. interchangeability!  You can put a 2000 motor into a 1976 frame. So for about the same money as the refreshed 850 you could put in a used 1100.
Maybe for your second build?

(https://photos.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-zjP29rV/0/e399e03c/S/IMG_0457-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-zjP29rV/A)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Scout63 on September 19, 2022, 10:36:59 PM
My ‘79 G5 cost me $200.00 and my friends told me to take it straight to the dump or get a tetanus shot.  The full restoration probably cost me 6k USD in parts and six months of my life.  I’ll never break even on the bike but the experience was priceless.  I think a T3 is absolutely worth saving and you will love the way it comes apart and goes together. If you go for it PM me and I’ll mail you an old copy of Guzziology.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: moto on September 19, 2022, 11:00:08 PM
A T3 is a wonderful thing, a 115 mph tourer that has the handling of a notably heavy sport bike. Also, it accelerates like a locomotive. I think you'll find it addictive.

I've sunk untold thousands into mine. Couldn't be happier.

Welcome aboard, and have fun!

Just one quick tip: Greg Bender, at thisoldtractor.com, sells excellent wiring harnesses and can customize them to suit you. This can be a time saver and reliabilty enhancer.

Your bike looks pretty good to me. Slow and steady will win the race.

Moto
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Huzo on September 19, 2022, 11:32:46 PM
Alright you bastards, just point me to this post when I'm $5k in and despondent. Thanks to the good community this seems to be, and the lowball $150 offer (which actually isn't far off from how much I bought it for) I. AM. IN

What's a bit of a rebuild between friends? I'm a vintage motorcycle enthusiast through and through. I looked at some 2015 models today and they just seem boring. Yes, I know they are wonderful machines and that makes more sense, but when has a motorcycle ever actually made much sense?  :grin: I have never just bought my way into a motorcycle! And yeah they were all Japanese but I figured those out. Moto Guzzi feels like upgrading to the next level. More difficult, more rewarding.

If any of you are near Austin, TX I'll trade you a 6 pack of Modelo for parts and labor any time. Ol' gal is already on the harbor freight lift in the garage.
I love you…. :kiss:
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: siabeid on September 19, 2022, 11:41:35 PM
As the owner of several Guzzis, my 2 favorites are my v7 sport that I completely rebuilt from a piece of junk, and my T3 that I have had for 23 years. The v7sport rebuild is in the rebuild category on this forum under "fence post". I have a total of about $8500 and countless hours into that, but it could have been less if I didn't have to get a new tank or if I didn't have a nice paint job done. It got the Gilardoni pistons and nikasil  cylinders.  I got my T3 with only 9000 miles on it and in pretty good shape. Over the years it has evolved into a "sport tourer" with a lemans tank, a quarter fairing, sp handlebars, up rated suspension, Wixom saddlebags, etc. etc. At around 40,000 miles, I did a valve job, installed Gilardoni nikasil cylinders and pistons and replaced the clutch. It stops great, handles great and has enough power to run all day at 75 or 80 if the need arises. I would really like to ride a new small block 850, as on paper they are very similar, but the small block weighs about 100 pounds less. I love the old T3. From a financial perspective, the v7 sport was worth putting the money into. To me, the T3 would be worth it as well, though it will never have the $ value of a sport or lemans. It is, however, a  truly great bike in its own right. Not as collectible as a v7 sport or lemans, but they are starting to become uncommon. Guzzis are really quite easy to work on if you have any mechanical skills. I would certainly rebuild one if I found it as a project.

Si Abeid
Kettle Falls, WA
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Huzo on September 20, 2022, 12:28:11 AM
Please Siabed, don’t read this….

Siabed has what I consider to be a wonderful example of how the passion for a machine can morph into a quest from which you do not divert. In addition to his undeniable skills and determination, he is an example from which we can all draw inspiration.
If you follow Canuck 750 and Siabed (in addition to the input from others), you’ll not go wrong.
Did you read “Fence Post Guzzi” ?
The fact that his is a 750 Sport and as such very collectible is of secondary importance, that is only of any significance if you choose to pass it on and I’ll wager you may well not.
Welcome to “your bike” not just your bike….. :wink: :bow: :thumb:
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Huzo on September 20, 2022, 12:30:32 AM
Not worth restoring this piece of crap. Because I like you, I'll take it off your hands for $150. Cash. :evil:
Piracy is alive and well…!
Take your buccaneers and off to sea with you..
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Dave Swanson on September 20, 2022, 07:03:00 AM
Alright you bastards, just point me to this post when I'm $5k in and despondent. Thanks to the good community this seems to be, and the lowball $150 offer (which actually isn't far off from how much I bought it for) I. AM. IN



Good for you.  This money pit will hopefully bring you a lot of satisfaction.  I know all my restorations have.  I never tally all the receipts after.   :cheesy:

Here is my journey down the T3 restoration road. 

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=105854.0

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdSSjSKn/IMG-6681.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CRJ2JXPQ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRxkMdpC/IMG_1023_(2).jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tZYgPgLF)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: steven c on September 20, 2022, 07:16:14 AM
 Or just get a low mile EV, Stone, Jackal for $2000 to $4000. They are almost vintage now.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: cliffrod on September 20, 2022, 07:37:06 AM
Very cool. 

I think you’ll be fine with the rebuild.  The only info I couldn’t find/didn’t get when I did my bike was adequate advice regarding potential chrome-related damage inside the engine.   Now you can easily search this forum, ThisOldTractor and connect with all the info you need.

Try not to set yourself up for discouragement by creating absolute deadlines on the calendar or the budget.  Stay organized.  Stay focused.  Relax and be content to be doing it properly the first time.  My V7 Sport was my first “big” bike.  My latest hopefully simple CX rework is taking longer than I would prefer, but sometimes that’s how it goes.  When you get yours going and hear those carbs slurping & honking under your knees, you’ll get it.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 20, 2022, 08:36:17 PM
I got an old Haynes manual with the bike and looking through it today, it looks like I got pages 21-50 to get through. Not bad, I figure I can read 30 pages. It'll cover removing, inspecting and restoring the engine. They don't have a hell of a lot of pictures (which is my preferred reading grade) but I figure step-by-step and slow-and-steady wins the race.

My next move is to get some large shelves and boxes to keep everything in order as it comes off. After that I'll be ordering the Gilardoni piston/cylinder sets from MGCycle (800 buckerinos and multiple weeks to arrive! What a deal!  :grin:)

In the meantime, are there any recommended tools I could order before hand? I'm planning on picking up some Mitutoyo calipers, a new set of feeler gauges and a parts washer (ditched my last one ages ago and haven't needed it until now). To be fair these will not be included in the final invoice that I will be sending to all of you.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on September 20, 2022, 09:10:35 PM
You can do a complete top end on that engine by removing the fuel tank and the headers.
You do not have to remove the engine to "top" it.
If you find no signs of damage on the bores probably no chrome flakes went through the engine.
You have to pull the oil pan to change the oil filter.
This will let you get a good view of the bottom end.
Still havent pulled the engine.
Clean the carbs and the air passages.
Change all the other oils and fluids too
Change the air filter (it's a demon) and fire it up and see what happens.
Wheels are aluminum, spokes are stainless and nipples are brass.
No rust there, just a collection of dirt. That rim lip holds dirt.
Probably have to rebuild all 3 calipers with new pucks and seals.
Master cylinder bores may be pitted (either sleeve or MG Cycle).
I paid $3K for mine and it didn't look as good as yours.
So far it's carried me 92,000 miles.
I'm replacing timing chain out of guilt (engine still in frame).
Not that I haven't had the engine and transmission in the cradle.
Just that alot can be done without pulling it out.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: fotoguzzi on September 20, 2022, 09:15:27 PM
32mm deep socket for crank nut

(https://photos.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-hzZfQdK/0/cd4e23da/Th/DSCN1649-Th.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-hzZfQdK/A)

Make your own fly wheel locking tool

(https://photos.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-mxt9KKN/0/3df9ca98/L/IMG_0529_zps725f03b3-L.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-mxt9KKN/A)

An engine stand is a real luxury

(https://photos.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-SmJ4W8p/0/b23581d1/S/DSCN1441-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-SmJ4W8p/A)


Hoist, another luxury

(https://photos.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-6KQRVWp/0/84eeaf8c/S/DSCN1469-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/EVert-project/i-6KQRVWp/A)


Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: fotoguzzi on September 20, 2022, 09:27:45 PM
Make a clutch alignment tool

(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-JFcfSDW/0/355f8ffe/S/IMG_0567_zps4542548f-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-JFcfSDW/A)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-zCm4RfS/0/f43f5a2f/S/IMG_0564_zpsbe9d36b7-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-zCm4RfS/A)

It will save you from warping the ring gear when you assemble cutch

(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-2V8H5N9/0/1aef813b/Th/IMG_1108-Th.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-2V8H5N9/A)


Old timers put a hose clamp on the oil filter to keep it from coming loose in the sump.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-cSbbDfq/0/06232be9/S/IMG_0812-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-cSbbDfq/A)

Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: fotoguzzi on September 20, 2022, 09:32:34 PM
Replace the rubber block tensioner on the timing chain with a Valtec (MGcycle)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/All/i-Lg6nNvT/0/e625628a/S/DSCN0496-S.jpg) (https://fotoguzzi.smugmug.com/All/i-Lg6nNvT/A)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Scout63 on September 20, 2022, 09:39:56 PM
A clutch alignment tool is key whenever you get into the engine.  A rear main seal driver is also very handy. I bought mine from MG Cycle. A test light and multimeter are really helpful for the old wiring.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on September 20, 2022, 09:47:52 PM
32mm deep socket for crank nut

Short nose crank and a ring nut, so that socket won't work. This one will:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=840
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: fotoguzzi on September 20, 2022, 10:33:56 PM
Ok but I usually butchered the nut with a drift and hammer, then replaced with the 32mm nut.
I was either too cheap or didn’t know about the ring nut tool.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: s1120 on September 21, 2022, 05:05:56 AM
Really you want to go over to the project sections in this forum, and start reading. You will learn a LOT about how how these things come apart, and tips and tricks that the manuals just don't tell you. These things are different... Not hard, or complex, but different. Take your time, and when you hit a rod block, ask here about it, and you will have 5-6 guys jump right in to help that have done it multiple times.. ANd ya... the manuals suck for these..  Ive started a binder that I print out stuff from on line that has helped me.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: JJ on September 24, 2022, 08:39:30 AM
What a beautiful pair of classic Moto Guzzi's!! :thumb: :bow: :cool: :boozing: 

Pack 'em up and RIDE to the next rally! :cool: :boozing: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


(https://i.ibb.co/TWR0RfS/Screen-Shot-2022-09-24-at-6-37-59-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/TWR0RfS)

(https://i.ibb.co/m8d9f6v/Screen-Shot-2022-09-24-at-6-37-45-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/m8d9f6v)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: fotoguzzi on September 24, 2022, 09:21:20 AM
What a beautiful pair of classic Moto Guzzi's!! :thumb: :bow: :cool: :boozing: 

Pack 'em up and RIDE to the next rally! :cool: :boozing: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

(https://i.ibb.co/m8d9f6v/Screen-Shot-2022-09-24-at-6-37-45-AM.png)[/url]

not classic, Fuel injected 1100 EV motor, convert frame and drive train. Sold it after proving it could be done.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Gusable on September 24, 2022, 10:41:26 AM
Good luck with the project.  I like it.  You’ll have fun and really be hooked when all done. I’m on my second guzzi ( both 1100 California’s ). I’m in $$$ more than I planned but not worried about it. This one ain’t going nowhere! Ticks all my boxes
(https://i.ibb.co/f8nn7VZ/931-AA0-D1-F6-C2-46-D0-B84-D-35-C0161866-DB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8nn7VZ)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: bigbikerrick on September 24, 2022, 11:03:32 AM
Good luck with the project.  I like it.  You’ll have fun and really be hooked when all done. I’m on my second guzzi ( both 1100 California’s ). I’m in $$$ more than I planned but not worried about it. This one ain’t going nowhere! Ticks all my boxes
(https://i.ibb.co/f8nn7VZ/931-AA0-D1-F6-C2-46-D0-B84-D-35-C0161866-DB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8nn7VZ)

Thats a beauty, Gusable! I love that seat. It really sets it off nicely. :thumb:
Rick
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Huzo on September 24, 2022, 11:03:56 AM
Good luck with the project.  I like it.  You’ll have fun and really be hooked when all done. I’m on my second guzzi ( both 1100 California’s ). I’m in $$$ more than I planned but not worried about it. This one ain’t going nowhere! Ticks all my boxes
(https://i.ibb.co/f8nn7VZ/931-AA0-D1-F6-C2-46-D0-B84-D-35-C0161866-DB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f8nn7VZ)

I love that approach..
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Gusable on September 24, 2022, 11:08:25 AM
Thank you. I loved my 98 Ev ( bought and sold it twice). Not making that mistake again with this one. And I perfer the carbs. So easy to work on like the T3.  I almost bought a red T3 FB model years ago.  Should have. 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: injundave on September 26, 2022, 05:16:04 PM
I have a 1975 T3 which I picked up 16 years ago. It was tired then b ut still lasted another 5 years before it became too tired and I rebuilt it. I did everything: mechanicals, paint, chrome, electrics the lot. It had chrome bores which were just starting to go so I had the cylinders nicasil plated. I also replaced the original 40yr old Bosch alternator with a permanent magnet one with solid state regulator/rectifier and fitted Dyna electronic ignition. It owes me heaps in the dollar sense but runs like a dream and puts a smile on my face every time I ride it.

I built it with a Haynes manual and a bit of mechanical knowledge from other bikes. It was my first Guzzi rebuild. I wouldn't part with it for anything and have already told my daughter that she is getting it when I can no longer ride.

I also have a 2019 V85TT. The two bikes are chalk and cheese but are also uncannily similar. Neither is better, they are just 44 years apart and I love them both. My daughter has also claimed the TT as she prefers it however, if my shed was on fire I think I would rescue the T3 first.

Good luck on your journey. I look forward to keeping abreast of what you do and remember photos are necessary to show your progress.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 30, 2022, 02:17:11 PM
The journey of a full restoration begins with the removal of one bolt.

And backwards carburetors, it seems. I mean, I know that Italians aren't known to be the most fastidious people, but I'd like to believe they would have picked this up at the factory? Assuming of course that this carburetor IS backwards. The right side one has the fuel filter connection facing outwards, and that makes a lot more sense than this one. But on the carburetor the cylinder side is different to the airbox side. Perhaps someone replaced one many years ago? Seems odd to me.


(https://i.ibb.co/VTBSZft/IMG-6034.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VTBSZft)


Otherwise, it has begun. I ended up getting a lift, parts washer, shelving, and engine stand before the undertaking. I'm hoping to have the engine out by the end of the weekend. The manual isn't actually the worst thing in the world, but that's only because I have some experience with Japanese bikes, and those manuals document everything.

A pair of Gilardoni pistons and cylinders have been ordered and will be here in a few weeks. 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Tom H on September 30, 2022, 02:37:25 PM
The LH carb fuel inlet is on the inside as the pictures shows. The adjusters are outward as shown. All correct.

Tom
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on September 30, 2022, 03:05:22 PM
That's funny. Appreciate the confirmation, thank you!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on October 03, 2022, 03:21:21 PM
Well, the engines out!
(https://i.ibb.co/KmjYYp4/unnamed.png) (https://ibb.co/KmjYYp4)


It wasn't too bad. The most difficult part was removing the upper crash bar bolts.

I like how the manual makes no mention of what to do with the frame. I believe it says, "the main frame....can be wheeled away on the front wheel." And where does it go? Into a black hole!

I thought I could put the rear wheel back on for some kind of stability, but nope. So, it's just leaning against some shelves looking sorry for itself. What do y'all do with the frame once the engine is out? There is still work to be done on the frame. This might be the best time to put on a new harness. And of course degrease. Maybe even respray?

I am not entirely sure what to do with the engine, but I'll just keep following the manual. It says the gearbox separates next.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on October 03, 2022, 03:37:35 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/Y0LYGDW/20190815-103435.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y0LYGDW)


I set a couple of hoists above my work area and pull the frame vertically off the engine that is resting in a copy of the factory engine removal cradle. Then I pull the cradle from under the suspended frame to work on the engine.

I always lash the handlebars to keep the front end from swinging. Before the hoists, lashing the bars allowed me to move the frame around like a wheelbarrow. I'd park it on the front wheel and blocks under the swingarm pivot area.

The problem with the wheelbarrow method is that it is much harder to line up stuff at reassembly with the wheelbarrow. Especially if you work alone.

With the two hoists (Come Along) cable doubled it is possible to get very minor moves with each ratchet. Positioning the frame exactly where you want it and having it stay as you add fasteners is easy.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on October 14, 2022, 07:04:10 PM
Thank you for this idea! Fantastic! Instead of driving all the way to get hoists, I just used some heavy duty ratcheting straps. The frame is mounted to three hooks so it's well under any weight limits.

My plan when getting the engine back in is to use the HF rolling motorcycle lift that I already have. I'll raise the frame really high, roll the engine underneath, and then start lowering the frame. 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on October 14, 2022, 07:15:25 PM
I've spent the past few days removing and disassembling the transmission. The biggest blocker was waiting for special tools to arrive.

Removing the two peg nuts was a breeze with an impact wrench, 27mm deep socket and the specialist tool from MGCycle (https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=657). It was actually disappointingly easy, but I can imagine how frustrating it must be without those tools!  :grin:

Some questions for y'all

After addressing the above, my next steps are to:

Replace all seals.
Send case off to be vapor blasted ($90 AN HOUR??? I'm in the wrong business!)
Replace all bearings.
Rebuild
(https://i.ibb.co/vXRcs9J/IMG-6440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vXRcs9J)

(https://i.ibb.co/7RZ4tZF/IMG-6441.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7RZ4tZF)

(https://i.ibb.co/25Whxp6/IMG-6442.jpg) (https://ibb.co/25Whxp6)

(https://i.ibb.co/T0rd1zP/IMG-6443.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T0rd1zP)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: czakky82 on October 14, 2022, 07:27:59 PM
I’ve had two similar era trans apart. Both had similar casting faults. My vote? Carry on.
Good question.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Gusable on October 14, 2022, 07:51:00 PM
I like the forward progress going on there! Don’t ask me about my pontiac ventura garage anchor project LOL my pals are going to start giving me a HARD time soon.. lol when’s that car gonna be running!!  Looks like your having fun too. Can’t wait to see it all done
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on October 14, 2022, 08:05:46 PM
I've spent the past few days removing and disassembling the transmission. The biggest blocker was waiting for special tools to arrive.

Removing the two peg nuts was a breeze with an impact wrench, 27mm deep socket and the specialist tool from MGCycle (https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=657). It was actually disappointingly easy, but I can imagine how frustrating it must be without those tools!  :grin:
Getting the nuts off is the easy part. Reinstalling them to the specified torque is the challenge.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on October 14, 2022, 08:43:38 PM
Some questions for y'all
  • There was some surface rust on the selector drum rod. I sanded it off. I don't think this will harm things, but I may be mistaken. Should I order a replacement or leave as is?
  • Something went wrong in the end case. I haven't looked at each gear in detail but there is nothing immediately obviously wrong. See the photos for the damage. Is this something to replace?

The rod the drum rotates on? If so, that'll be fine.

The end case usual looks a bit rough in that area, but that's much worse than normal. Could be the shift return spring broke previously and then got trapped there between the case and a gear. If you need one, I have a few extras.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Howard R on October 15, 2022, 12:18:48 PM
Looking up close at your 3rd pic from top, it almost looks lke there is a crack propagating down from the left bearing race, and almost ready to break all the way into the right bearing race.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on October 15, 2022, 12:31:02 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403767994159?
$130 (or BRO) and your concerns vanish in a cloud of receipts.
NOT MY PART!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on October 15, 2022, 12:44:39 PM
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403767994159?
$130 (or BRO) and your concerns vanish in a cloud of receipts.
NOT MY PART!

I will GIVE him one for FREE (just pay shipping).
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on October 16, 2022, 04:47:19 PM
The rod the drum rotates on? If so, that'll be fine.

The end case usual looks a bit rough in that area, but that's much worse than normal. Could be the shift return spring broke previously and then got trapped there between the case and a gear. If you need one, I have a few extras.

I'll take you up on that offer, will message you privately.

And it is exactly because of offers like this that I went forward with the restoration. What a community!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on October 16, 2022, 04:48:40 PM
Looking up close at your 3rd pic from top, it almost looks lke there is a crack propagating down from the left bearing race, and almost ready to break all the way into the right bearing race.

Yeah I saw that, too. It is much smaller in person - it is literally a hairline. But it is of concern. Seems like riding on borrowed time. I'm this far in, may as well just replace the cover.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 07, 2022, 05:51:11 PM
I am having a hell of a time with reassembling the transmission and it's starting to get frustrating. And being frustrated is when bad things happen. So, I'm pausing to try and figure out what is going on.

I haven't lost any parts, everything is as it should be. The selector drum had a lot of slop in it so I have shimmed it accordingly. It spins freely with no drag or slop now. That was really the only change I made. Besides new bearings and seals, everything is as it was.

But when I reassemble all the shafts, when trying to shift gears the whole assembly locks up. If I jiggle everything around and apply what seems to be significant pressure to the selector drum, then it'll click and shift, but it doesnt move up or down reliably. And then it'll lock again at another point.

I have tried some configurations of different thickness shims on the selector drum. I reassembled it completely, so knew that it was in neutral, and it was very difficult to shift to what I assumed to be first gear. So I adjusted the shims on the selector drum to move it forward, but that still didn't really stop this whole binding thing.

The last thing I've tried is removing the shim at the front of the main shaft. That shaft had a huge shim on it, and it looked like it was sitting too high when I saw how the gears were meshing. I removed it, and the gears of the main shaft and layshaft now seem to be at equal heights, but the whole mechanism binds and locks when trying to shift gears. If this shim is too thick it can cause binding, but even with the shim totally off it still binds. I suspect that this may be the culprit and I will have to find a smaller shim. 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on November 07, 2022, 06:41:00 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/0yZmnBc/20190807-213637.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yZmnBc)

If you stack it all up on the back cover it gives you a good view of how all the internals are interacting. You can run it through all the gears in this position. When satisfied drop on the main case. Then install the detent in the case.

I assume you are trying trial shifts with a lever on the shift shaft at least as long as your shift pedal. It does take a bit of torque to overcome the detent, slide the forks and the gears. Also, you have to spin the shaft to allow clutch dogs to line up with gear slots.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: 1down5up on November 07, 2022, 11:26:56 PM
Mke sure you have tightened up the nut on the input and output shaft.

This draws the respective shafted into there proper position, otherwise the shift dogs don't align on the drum properly
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 08, 2022, 08:02:51 AM
Mke sure you have tightened up the nut on the input and output shaft.

This draws the respective shafted into there proper position, otherwise the shift dogs don't align on the drum properly

I did this the first time but not every time. Will try again today.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 08, 2022, 03:51:53 PM
Thank you for all your suggestions folks.

@n3303j what a clever way of looking at things.

It turns out that it was binding for either (or both) of the following reasons:

Too much shim on the selector drum
Not securing input and output shaft fully when testing.

It's shifting better now, but I'm not sure if I'm finding neutral: Through all the gear changes when I rotate the input shaft the output shaft rotates, too. I would imagine that if in neutral, the output shaft doesn't spin?

I might be wrong there but I want to confirm before finalizing and moving forward.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on November 08, 2022, 05:00:28 PM
There's enough friction that the output shaft will rotate in neutral when rhe input shaft is spun unless you restrain the output shaft.
All the gears are always spinning on the output shaft and are causing it to rotate whenever the input shaft is rotating.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 08, 2022, 07:48:51 PM
Appreciate the confirmation. The transmission is buttoned up and sitting pretty. Where to from here....
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on November 08, 2022, 08:07:45 PM
Appreciate the confirmation. The transmission is buttoned up and sitting pretty. Where to from here....
Ride it like you stole it!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 12, 2022, 09:53:58 AM
"If it's aint broke, DON'T BREAK IT!"

With the transmission buttoned up, I'm digging into the engine: the one part that I know had some problems. The bike's been sitting for about 20 years and I could see some corrosion on the left cylinder. With most of the engine disassembled, the right cylinder doesn't actually look to be damaged. The pistons seem alright. Not that it matters I have the Gilardoni kit ready to reinstall and I'll be replacing the valves, valve springs and guides.

Inside the engine, there is a spot of corrosion (see photo A)
(https://i.ibb.co/Mp2N0Nn/IMG-7112.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mp2N0Nn)


And there also seems to be some kind of corrosion on the right connecting rod. I wrote the "R". (see
(https://i.ibb.co/0Qn6jW3/IMG-7109.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Qn6jW3)

photo up load (https://imgbb.com/)
photo B) .

Is it necessary to replace these two components in the photos?


For everything else, I came across a thread wherein the poster had replaced the following as part of a standard engine rebuild:

- rocker cover gaskets, thick (2)               
- timing cover gasket                       
- head gaskets (2)                     
- base gaskets (2)                       
- oil pan gasket, thick                       
- breather pipe gasket                       
- rear main bearing flange gasket                 
- exhaust gaskets (2)                       
- intake manifold gaskets (4)                 
- distributor gasket                         
- oil pick-up gasket                       
- oil pipe gaskets (2)                     
- cylinder stud o-rings (12)                     
- front crankshaft seal                     
- rear crank seal                     
- flywheel bolt kit                       
- 8mm crush washers (6)                     
- 12mm crush washers (2)                         
- 20mm crush washers (3)                   
- Gilardoni cylinder kits (2)                                 
- rod bearing shells, 1st under (4)           
- front main bearing, 1st under                     
- rear main bearing, 1st under                       
- oil pump                             
- oil pump key                         
- intake valves (2)                     
- exhaust valves (2)                     
- valve guides (4)                     
- valve guide circlips (4)                     
- refaced lifters (4)                     
- timing chain                     
- timing chain tensioner                 
- rocker arm pins (4)                     
- sludge trap plug                     
- oil pressure sender                                                                       
- NGK BP6ES (2)                     
- distributor advance springs, pr.               
- distributor rotor                     
- condenser

Gaskets, I can understand, but the whole list seems a little like overkill to me.

The timing chain? The bearings? Seals? There was no evidence of any leak before. The rocker arm pins? They came out fine! I think I went overkill in replacing the bearings on the transmission. A supplier asked me, when trying to source a bearing, "Well how bad is it?" and it wasn't actually bad at all.

This engine came with 30k miles on it.

I'm not counting pennies, it's just that, if it ain't broke don't break it!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 12, 2022, 11:40:27 AM
Your "spots of corrosion" are actually paint splotches that Guzzi applied to denote the "grade" of the crank and rods.

I'm guessing that's a list I posted at some point. Pretty common to need everything on that list for an Eldorado engine rebuild. Without an oil filter and with chrome bores, the crankshaft almost always needs to be ground and undersize bearings fitted.

You won't have these, since you're engine has an oil filter:
- oil pick-up gasket
- oil pipe gaskets (2)

Make sure you get the appropriate head gaskets for the Gilardonis. If they have oval pushrod holes, get the gaskets with the same.

You'd only need to replace bearings, rocker pins and oil pump if they're worn or damaged. The original timing chain has likely stretched, the original tensioner... didn't (unless one removed the timing cover and slid it over periodically). A new chain is better quality and the new bow-type tensioner actually tensions the chain. Seals? Definitely replace. It's false economy not to IMO.   
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on November 12, 2022, 12:22:52 PM
Timing chain & gears good for at least 100K miles.
Stock tensioner is junk, replace now.
Replace all seals as long as you are in there.
At 30K miles the valves probably are fine. Check for leaks.
Bottom end should be solid unless it spent time under water.
A joy with this bike is you can replace everything from rod bearings outward without removing the engine. And it's quick access.
So run the bike and address top end issues if they show up.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 16, 2022, 11:20:32 AM
Got it! This is welcome news. Appreciate the input. Will update at the next step.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 26, 2022, 10:56:49 AM
Howdy,

I'm almost on the last step of disassembling the engine. Trying to remove this bearing housing but it is really glued on there. In the manual, and elsewhere, it seems to come off really easy. It doesn't seem like anyone has been here before, so maybe I've overlooked something. Is this supposed to be that difficult to remove?

(https://i.ibb.co/sj5Gv4f/IMG-7390.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sj5Gv4f)

(https://i.ibb.co/QCnpm2n/IMG-7391.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QCnpm2n)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on November 26, 2022, 11:16:36 AM
Two of the holes are threaded for a puller. I'd run a bar across the housing to pull against rather then pressing on the crankshaft.

Freeze it solid when you go for a reinstall and it should just drop in. Put a couple of bolts with the heads cut off in the mounting holes to guide the carrier into place. It makes lineup much easier.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Don G on November 26, 2022, 04:46:41 PM
Set engine with the rear bearing facing down towards bench, give the crank snout a firm twap with a dead blow hammer, use a 3 or 4 pounder. Place a piece of wood between bench and rear of crank so as to catch the assembly when it exits the case. Works every time stress free.  DonG
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Guzler on November 26, 2022, 05:24:21 PM
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=33315&jsn=271
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 26, 2022, 06:49:52 PM
Two of the holes are threaded for a puller. I'd run a bar across the housing to pull against rather then pressing on the crankshaft.

Freeze it solid when you go for a reinstall and it should just drop in. Put a couple of bolts with the heads cut off in the mounting holes to guide the carrier into place. It makes lineup much easier.

Aaah! I didn't realize that only two of the holes were threaded. I missed those! Thank you
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Scout63 on November 26, 2022, 10:33:01 PM
+1 on a dead blow hammer to knock the rear main bearing out if you don’t have a puller. Just go slow.  Make sure you install the rear main bearing absolutely straight or you will wedge it and never get it in. You can use longer bolts to line it up. Also install a new bow timing chain tensioner like Charlie said.  New rod bolts and nuts are a must and sometimes a pain to source. Check front main bearing oil dowel placement carefully and seal the bottom front main bearing bolt where the hole goes all the way through.  I used Yamabond.  Also a good idea to seal the rear cam plug with JBWeld. After trying to time the points a few times I went with a Dyna III ignition.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 30, 2022, 12:11:37 PM
I'm ready to start rebuilding the engine. It is all upwards from here, putting parts on instead of taking them off!

The rear main bearing gasket is a right pain-in-the-ass. I would literally rather order a new main bearing from Europe than deal with getting this gasket off and consequently having to take it to a machine shop because I know the machined surface will be wrecked.

How do I know what size bearing to get? It seems there is the normal one and then an undersized one.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 30, 2022, 12:33:54 PM
Use chemical gasket remover, which should help. "Aircraft Remover" (paint remover) also works. I find that heating the gasket (propane torch) softens it and makes it easier to remove as well.

If you're still determined to just buy a new bearing, you'll need to measure the crankshaft's o.d. and compare that to the specs. in the factory manual to see if your crank is standard or undersize.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on November 30, 2022, 01:31:10 PM
Just went through the gasket removal on my T3. Aircraft Remover dropped the magic ingredient (as did all others). No more Methylene Chloride. Patience and a single edge Razor will work. Especially since you can do the job sitting at your workbench instead of lying on your back in the driveway. Patience grasshopper.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on November 30, 2022, 02:01:19 PM
Just went through the gasket removal on my T3. Aircraft Remover dropped the magic ingredient (as did all others). No more Methylene Chloride. Patience and a single edge Razor will work. Especially since you can do the job sitting at your workbench instead of lying on your back in the driveway. Patience grasshopper.

Yeah I heard too many people were killing themselves trying to strip their bathtubs or something. I used aircraft remover recently on the frame and it was absolute garbage.

This could be a good excuse to get a propane torch to heat it up!
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 30, 2022, 03:24:39 PM
Worth a try: https://www.crcindustries.com/products/gasket-remover-12-wt-oz.html

Even without the "good stuff", Aircraft Remover still works for me (on gaskets).
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on December 22, 2022, 09:24:38 AM
For anyone in the future trying to figure out what size main bearing to get, I found this chart in an old workshop manual.


(https://i.ibb.co/gtN8kJ1/IMG-7978.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gtN8kJ1)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 22, 2022, 03:11:23 PM
Um, yeah. Usually the first place to look.  :wink:
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 05, 2023, 09:32:49 AM
Happy new year suckers! Let's hope I'll be riding this motorcycle by summer!


I biffed the gasket removal on the rear main bearing. I have NEVER been good at removing gaskets.

The replacement arrives from Europe today. And with that, I am at the bottom of the disassembly process and ready to put her back together.

In my infinite wisdom, I did not make any timing marks on the way out. How screwed am I?

Having never rebuilt an engine, is it simply the same as the disassembly process backwards?
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 05, 2023, 10:01:58 AM
Happy new year suckers! Let's hope I'll be riding this motorcycle by summer!


I biffed the gasket removal on the rear main bearing. I have NEVER been good at removing gaskets.

The replacement arrives from Europe today. And with that, I am at the bottom of the disassembly process and ready to put her back together.

In my infinite wisdom, I did not make any timing marks on the way out. How screwed am I?

Having never rebuilt an engine, is it simply the same as the disassembly process backwards?

There are timing marks stamped into both the crank and cam sprockets. The flywheel should have a painted mark that lines up with the same on the crank. If not, turn the left cylinder to TDC and line up the stamped arrow on the flywheel with the "nub" pointer on the crankcase.

This may help in your reassembly.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith.html
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 05, 2023, 11:03:15 AM
Well, that's a relief. Thanks for the reference!

Stay tuned for updates 
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 13, 2023, 03:22:19 PM
I am struggling to better understand this post from thisoldtractor


(https://i.ibb.co/fnNzDBj/Screen-Shot-2023-01-13-at-3-17-04-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/fnNzDBj)


Where is the oil feed dowel in this photo? It says that it's at 12 o clock but I don't see anything there, so is 12'oclock the blue circle or the red circle?

I never took the front bearing out so maybe that's why I'm confused at this instruction. This is the current state of the engine


(https://i.ibb.co/yYbJdQ0/IMG-8206.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYbJdQ0)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 13, 2023, 03:39:48 PM
You need to remove the bearing in order to see the dowel. It fits into a hole at the top (12 o'clock) and keeps the bearing insert from rotating in the flange.


(https://i.ibb.co/8sR8pzV/14011900.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8sR8pzV)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 13, 2023, 03:52:40 PM
Alright, just wanted to make sure. 'preciate it
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 13, 2023, 04:01:46 PM
Alright, just wanted to make sure. 'preciate it

If you haven't already done it, you'll need to remove the oil dowel from your old rear main bearing and fit it to the new one. They don't come with the dowel.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 20, 2023, 09:07:38 AM
I'm really struggling with the oil pump key!

Fortunately, I haven't biffed it or tried to force it. And it came out easily enough. But even when things are lined up EXACTLY, it still doesn't want to go in. It seems like it doesn't sit deep enough on the extruding bolt/screw. I'm tempted to shave a few thou off the key itself, but knowing that it's hardened steel makes me think that isn't possible with a simple wire wheel.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on January 20, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
A few thousandths comes off a hardened key by running it back and forth on a sheet of emery cloth laid on a very flat surface.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 20, 2023, 12:29:18 PM
I took off a tiny bit, but it still didn't fit. It eventually went in with a little bit of the ol' tappy tap tap. Once the head was in it was smooth sailing from there. Cue innuendo here  :wink:
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 22, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
I am so close to finally rebuilding the top end (the whole purpose of the rebuild in the first place!)

But, I'm worried that I may have done something wrong in the reassembly, I am on the following step in the reassembly (see attachment). Bottom end is all but back together, excluding the oil sump.

However, in one of the two guides on thisoldtractor, he says,

"the best way to check if things are right are to set the case on its sump and the lift the rod to its highest possible point. With a decent assembly lube in the bearing, when released, the rod should slowly drop to the other side of the crankcase mouth under it's own weight. If it goes 'Clonk!' or doesn't want to move without force then there is something wrong."

I don't have that on my rebuild and so I'm pausing where I am for now. The crank does not move under it's own weight. It isn't binding anywhere, but it does need to be pushed. Not pushed too hard, it just doesn't move freely. I am using a brand new rear main bearing and rear seal. As well as new timing chain and timing chain tensioner.

I'm using this assembly lube, perhaps that is the culprit? https://www.autozone.com/greases-and-gear-oil/assembly-lubricant/p/lucas-oil-products-assembly-lube-4oz/692400_0_0

Is this common or have I done something wrong somewhere? I've been following instructions and torque specs to the letter, but it is likely that the guide wasn't thorough and I may have missed something due to inexperience.


(https://i.ibb.co/dWw4vnc/Screen-Shot-2023-01-22-at-6-55-22-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/dWw4vnc)
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: n3303j on January 22, 2023, 07:31:57 PM
I am so close to finally rebuilding the top end (the whole purpose of the rebuild in the first place!)

But, I'm worried that I may have done something wrong in the reassembly, I am on the following step in the reassembly (see attachment). Bottom end is all but back together, excluding the oil sump.

However, in one of the two guides on thisoldtractor, he says,

"the best way to check if things are right are to set the case on its sump and the lift the rod to its highest possible point. With a decent assembly lube in the bearing, when released, the rod should slowly drop to the other side of the crankcase mouth under it's own weight. If it goes 'Clonk!' or doesn't want to move without force then there is something wrong."

I don't have that on my rebuild and so I'm pausing where I am for now. The crank does not move under it's own weight. It isn't binding anywhere, but it does need to be pushed. Not pushed too hard, it just doesn't move freely. I am using a brand new rear main bearing and rear seal. As well as new timing chain and timing chain tensioner.

I'm using this assembly lube, perhaps that is the culprit? https://www.autozone.com/greases-and-gear-oil/assembly-lubricant/p/lucas-oil-products-assembly-lube-4oz/692400_0_0

Is this common or have I done something wrong somewhere? I've been following instructions and torque specs to the letter, but it is likely that the guide wasn't thorough and I may have missed something due to inexperience.


(https://i.ibb.co/dWw4vnc/Screen-Shot-2023-01-22-at-6-55-22-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/dWw4vnc)

The Crank won't move freely with timing chain, tensioner and seal drag added to the equation. That free fall is main or rod bearing friction only.
Title: Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
Post by: texasmoto on January 22, 2023, 10:16:30 PM
Fantastic!

For a bonus lap I put together the pistons and cylinders this evening. Went so smoothly. What a dream working with those Gillardonis.

And now, the actual thing that was wrong with the motorcycle is fixed.  :grin:

Still got a long way to go!