Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 9fingers on November 10, 2022, 07:25:55 AM
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Ok, after 4 or 5 years of trying to look good while riding my bikes....period correct stuff on the Royal Enfield 500 and such, I finally decided to buy a yellow hi viz air jacket this Spring. I wore it on every ride until perhaps a month ago, and NOT ONE VEHICLE PULLED OUT IN FRONT OF ME ALL YEAR! My V Strom is what I call "road color" at dark grey with a smoked Puig screen and regardless of the headlight being on people used to pull out all the time and I would have a heartrate raising moment. Not any more! Most of my riding is on the V7 III Special, in that taupe/grey color.....almost road colored.....but again, no issues with drivers. I have added a Revit HI Viz vest for cold weather riding and all is good. I do about 10 or 11K each year it seems, all backroads except when time interferes. Anyone else made the switch to yellow? Seems I am seeing a lot of riders wearing hi viz these days.
Scott
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..... Anyone else made the switch to yellow?
Yes, if you count yellow flip flops and plaid Bermuda shorts ! JK...
I did just purchase my Grand daughters first car, I got a sweet deal on a 2000 buick with only 58K miles, however it is "road color" one thing I didn't want..
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After a decade and a half in a Gray Darien Jacket I switched to a Yellow/Gray Klim.
I DO think I'm more visible.
But I distinctly remember being in the pines this past week when a moron in jacked pickup truck towing a landscaping trailer start to pull out in front of me from a stop sign on a more minor side road as I was literally about to pass him (moderate speed, no stop sign my way, etc).
So though I DO think it happens less, I remain constantly vigilant.
(PS between my safety yellow and my Police bike I do think a number of people get the hell out of my way sometimes).
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I have a Hi Viz Tourmaster jacket. Hi Viz wear can't hurt, but remember, people still get in crashes with fire trucks and freight trains all the time. Being aware of your surroundings is still the best route.
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https://canadamotoguide.com/2020/02/23/the-science-behind-high-visibility-clothing/
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Certainly can't hurt but wont always help. Don't let it give you a false sense of security. I got mowed down at a red light while on my cali 14 with a top box slathered with reflective tape and while wearing a white full face and a neon yellow vest. First one in line at the light , light turns green and I get plowed before I could even get rolling. Funny thing is, I made eye contact with the woman driver behind me in the left side mirror . She acknowledged that she knew I was in front of her but said she looked up and saw a green light and floored it. I was lucky her huge ford Excursion didn't roll right over me and just shoved me over and up the road a bit. If I had been on a smaller bike it would have. Wittiness on the other side of the intersection said they saw her looking down, likely texting but she wouldn't admit to it. Be careful out there no matter what your wearing, assume nothing!
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Agreed to about everything said here so far.
I used to where hi vid a lot. Road for many years, pretty consistently with a prominent safety yellow vest. I got away from it about 18 years ago. And this is just my personal experience, I haven’t noticed much difference in how other vehicles act around me. Then as now, drivers occasionally pulled out in front of me and so on. I feel that about 2/3 of the time the driver does see me, and just does it anyway, a FU mentality. The other 1/3 they simply don’t, for various reasons all stemming from in-attentiveness.
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I'd insist that my lawyer files for her phone records. That will prove if she was texting, or not.
To the point: I had Hamlin install Danali D2 (mini LED) on my V7 two years ago after 4 years without. The difference in close calls was astounding. So much so that we installed the same lights on the V85 I bought when the V7 got sold. They can't hurt, but, like most, my "spider sense" is always on high alert when riding. I'm also always aware of time of day. People late for work, late getting back from lunch, if the sun is behind me, etc.
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Because of my wife's nagging I got an inflatable vest. A friend of hers hit a deer at 70 mph, him not the deer. Because of the vest he only suffered a couple of broken ribs and a collar bone. He said he probably wouldn't have survived without it. I got a Helite in Hi Viz. I think it has made a bit of difference in being seen. It gives me a little more confidence. I don't feel safe at times in my smaller town, full of inattentive and aggressive drivers. I took a couple of longer trips this summer and didn't see anything like I have at home. I have mentioned it to the Highway Patrol but they seemed nonchalant. Off the highway speeding through parking lots while practicing tunnel vision is a biggie.
kk
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White Helmet for 20 years.
Yellow Hi-Viz for a dozen years.
I think it helps, but always remain vigilant and proactive.
(https://i.ibb.co/6rr0SGV/12088268-10205183394084059-1215741288079683949-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6rr0SGV)
upload a picture (https://imgbb.com/)
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I'm on my 3rd Hi Vis jacket. Finally upgraded to a roadcrafter. It's the best fitting most user friendly designed jacket I've had. The Gerbings electric vest works perfectly underneath!
And ALWAYS white helmet!
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The less fairing a bike has the more hi viz helps. I started wearing it because of base requirements many years ago.
It still only helps if people are paying attention. I still try to not be in the impact zone of left turners by varying my speed and weaving in my lane.
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I have seen a big difference when I wear my hi viz helmet, even compared to a white one. also, remember the human eye is designed to detect lateral motion, so move that head side to side.
Rick D.
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I switched to hi-vis 10 years ago. I don't know how much it helps -- here in California, people tend to be pretty good about motorcycles already, so it's hard to tell the difference -- but I figure it has to be better than lo-vis.
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It’s also helpful in court when your lawyer points out what you were wearing when the other party tries to deny responsibility.
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Yes, if you count yellow flip flops and plaid Bermuda shorts ! JK...
:laugh: :grin: :laugh: :grin:
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I’m a big believer in hi viz! Always. And white helmet. Of course you still need your wits about you. I see black bikes with black gear all the time at dust or dawn and the only want you know it’s a motorcycle is the tiny aftermarket red taillight they have disappearing in the dark. I shake my head as they speed away
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Since I started wearing this ice cream vendor’s jacket
(https://i.ibb.co/vBFvDPW/3-B0-A9-F9-A-9-D60-4-BAB-B417-01-FFD6358-CE0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vBFvDPW)
(https://i.ibb.co/SxZ36W9/5-AD116-EB-EA7-B-48-AC-9-AD0-AA0-FCE14-C94-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SxZ36W9)
(https://i.ibb.co/q94q5Wx/565-B2-E02-4-EE0-4176-A3-F8-5073-AF3-D0-A87.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q94q5Wx)
People don’t look, they stare…(sometimes).
Maybe for all the wrong reasons, but I noticed that in critical decision making situations, the eye contact period lasted longer and you felt like your presence had registered.
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I say do what makes you feel comfortable. Remember to be on the look out as people pull out in front of big trucks all the time. I read a study some years ago on why people pull out in front of big trucks. It explained the brain is looking for a car and categorizes the big truck differently. I'm sure distraction from phones, kids and etc exaggerates this phenomenon.
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I wear a white helmet. Drivers who approach stop signs in a hurry most always slam on breaks at the last minute and sometimes fasten their seat belts. You can probably figure out why.
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We have our hi-viz gear, but I have to admit to wearing just a t-shirt now and then.
(https://i.ibb.co/2YSFr7S/PXL-20210709-182703356-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2YSFr7S)
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Given the number of road menders and loads of other wearers of yellow hi viz I feel that it is of limited use. I read a study about how the eye works some years ago - it was to do with fighter pilots IIRC. Whatever, the brain is looking to see what it expects to (cars); the best defence is to move position ie out when approaching a junction. This is more likely to attract a driver’s attention that yellow hi viz. Works for me, black gear but white helmet and no Dayglo Derek look…😉
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I feel much safer since I got my hi vis riding shoes :laugh:
(https://i.ibb.co/YN2c3TY/crocks.png) (https://ibb.co/YN2c3TY)
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I recently bought a new Tourmaster jacket and went back and forth on ordering the hi-vis version. I went ahead with black/grey but so make myself feel a little better I use a couple hi-vis arm bands that I switch between jackets.
(https://i.ibb.co/3MfPWvg/61-zt-Sa104-L-AC-SL1500.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3MfPWvg)
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Behavioral psychology may offer some perspective. It’s difficult to be certain that riders wearing hi-viz do not behave in a different way because of their deliberate look-at-me wardrobe choices. Many (most?) riders wearing non hi-viz gear never get hit by cars. is that because of their behavior, the other drivers behavior, the chosen hi-viz/non hi-viz gear, ??. Aside from the reflective gear worn after dark that is illuminated by headlights and makes persons more likely to be seen, regular hi-viz may or may not be part of a direct cause-effect relationship.
Imho, if you ride like you’re going to get hit all the time, you’ll probably be more careful to help prevent it from happening. So presenting yourself in a way that makes you be seen, no matter what you’re wearing, is the best overall strategy. If hi-viz makes the rider more cognoscente of how he or she presents themself, that’s a good enough reason for wearing it.
I’ll even suggest that the most likely way to be noticed by the most drivers in daylight hours is to ride naked. Everybody will look, take pics, post it to the interweb and likely even make you a local celebrity that people try to notice when they’re driving. Everybody here already owns their own naked free & clear, so it’s free- guzzi content… But I hear eye bleach is pretty $$$ where you can find it.
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Behavioral psychology may offer some perspective. It’s difficult to be certain that riders wearing hi-viz do not behave in a different way because of their deliberate look-at-me wardrobe choices. Many (most?) riders wearing non hi-viz gear never get hit by cars. is that because of their behavior, the other drivers behavior, the chosen hi-viz/non hi-viz gear, ??. Aside from the reflective gear worn after dark that is illuminated by headlights and makes persons more likely to be seen, regular hi-viz may or may not be part of a direct cause-effect relationship.
Imho, if you ride like you’re going to get hit all the time, you’ll probably be more careful to help prevent it from happening. So presenting yourself in a way that makes you be seen, no matter what you’re wearing, is the best overall strategy. If hi-viz makes the rider more cognoscente of how he or she presents themself, that’s a good enough reason for wearing it.
I’ll even suggest that the most likely way to be noticed by the most drivers in daylight hours is to ride naked. Everybody will look, take pics, post it to the interweb and likely even make you a local celebrity that people try to notice when they’re driving. Everybody here already owns their own naked free & clear, so it’s free- guzzi content… But I hear eye bleach is pretty $$$ where you can find it.
Hopefully. Luap and the Moderators (sounds like a rock band comprised of over 60 year old musicians) will allow all the WG members (no pun intended) to post their naked selfies and we can rate everyone on visability (first time I typed that, it changed to disability). Dues ex machina?
I couple years ago on a day that could not be any sunnier, I noticed a bicycle rider with a bright white strobe on his bike. I estimated that I could see him immediately and clearly from 3/4 of a mile away.
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European paint job so very fitting?
(https://i.ibb.co/TMLb0F7/motorcycle-hi-vis.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TMLb0F7)
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Since I started wearing this ice cream vendor’s jacket
(https://i.ibb.co/vBFvDPW/3-B0-A9-F9-A-9-D60-4-BAB-B417-01-FFD6358-CE0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vBFvDPW)
(https://i.ibb.co/SxZ36W9/5-AD116-EB-EA7-B-48-AC-9-AD0-AA0-FCE14-C94-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SxZ36W9)
(https://i.ibb.co/q94q5Wx/565-B2-E02-4-EE0-4176-A3-F8-5073-AF3-D0-A87.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q94q5Wx)
People don’t look, they stare…(sometimes).
Maybe for all the wrong reasons, but I noticed that in critical decision making situations, the eye contact period lasted longer and you felt like your presence had registered.
Hmmmmm......
Body paint or tattoos.... could save a lot of time dressing and undressing.....
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Hmmmmm......
Body paint or tattoos.... could save a lot of time dressing and undressing.....
Nah, no tattoos for me SRE..
Can’t be bothered putting up with pricks…
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I don't have any hi viz, all my stuff is low viz black or dark grey but don't think hi viz is a bad idea so that folks who are paying some attention notice you.
This last summer I had 5 instances where on-coming cagers made a left in front, in all instances there was no accident as a result but it did get me to thinking about a few things. On all my bikes except the old Eldo, I ride with the headlight on. I don't ride with the headlight on with the Eldo even though it has a high output alternator and headlight relays...don't ask me why...idk. Anyway, since all 5 of my close encounters last Summer were on the Eldo, I figured it is time to ride it with the headlight on. So, about 2 monthes ago I bought one of those relatively inexpensive jeep LED headlights and installed it in the Eldo and will hope for the best next riding season while riding with the new headlight on.
Back to hi viz, I'm not ready for a new jacket but my helmet shoulda probably been replaced a few years ago maybe I'll go with something a little more conspicuous than matte black. I like the hi viz armband thing but is it for peace of mind and a false sense of security?? I wonder if there are stats on motorcycle vs cager accidents where the rider was wearing hi viz? For example, if in 100% of the mc vs. cager accidents where the cager was clearly at fault and the rider was not wearing hi viz, we might assume that wearing hi viz lowers the risk of a mc/cager accidents where the cager is at fault.
My luck is I'll be on the Wing wearing all the hi viz crap stopped at a traffic signal with my brake light on (of which there are several of on that bike) and get rear ended by an idiot playing with their tech or worse OVI. I better stop talking about this before it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy :laugh:
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Yeah, if you’re about to get Liberace’d, no amount of bling will protect you.
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Best addition for reducing crashes is a 6" metal spike sticking out from every steering wheel.
Other than that, I always assume they haven't seen me and I do wear a bright reflective vest.
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Nah, no tattoos for me SRE..
Can’t be bothered putting up with pricks…
I applaud your choice in swimwear.....
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Best addition for reducing crashes is a 6" metal spike sticking out from every steering wheel.
Other than that, I always assume they haven't seen me and I do wear a bright reflective vest.
That is the greatest automobile safety tip I have ever read. I salute you sir.
No doubt most tailgaters and red light runners do so because they feel invincible.
All drivers knowing they will have to "ante up!" in case of an accident would be a great deterrent!
Imagine the reduction in traffic court case loads.
Easy tied into existing smart car technology, if you are one car length per 10 mph behind the car in front of you, there is no spike. As you get closer to the car in front of you, the spike extends farther and farther out from the steering wheel.
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I have been riding with a hi-viz yellow mesh jacket for years. I find the mesh jacket over a tee-shirt to be cooler on a hot sunny day than just a tee-shirt. Due to blocking the sun I assume.
A few years back, I was riding the back roads and stopped to buy two cantaloupes (bigger than a softball but smaller than a soccer ball) from a roadside stand that I knew had excellent melons. So I stuffed both melons inside my jacket to carry them home.
Riding thru a few small towns on the way back, it seemed my visibility had increased at least ten fold!!!
Weird, huh?
the Dolley Parton effect?
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I have been riding with a hi-viz yellow mesh jacket for years. I find the mesh jacket over a tee-shirt to be cooler on a hot sunny day than just a tee-shirt. Due to blocking the sun I assume.
A few years back, I was riding the back roads and stopped to buy two cantaloupes (bigger than a softball but smaller than a soccer ball) from a roadside stand that I knew had excellent melons. So I stuffed both melons inside my jacket to carry them home.
Riding thru a few small towns on the way back, it seemed my visibility had increased at least ten fold!!!
Weird, huh?
the Dolley Parton effect?
Yeah, I use that to good effect.
“My Coat of Many Colours…”
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Given the number of road menders and loads of other wearers of yellow hi viz I feel that it is of limited use.
I don't get your logic there.
If there are other people on the road who are not getting hit by cars because of the yellow hi viz how will that hurt our goal of not getting hit while wearing yellow high viz?!?
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My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?
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My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?
Good post but you will never know whether you were lucky or not. Road positioning, correct gear and speed for the conditions, awareness and defensive riding are all part of our survival tool kit. Daytime headlight and standing out like a budgerigar help with visibility but are not a magic bullet. Advanced training is up there too and is one of the most beneficial. Personally, I take advantage of everything out there and similarly have been accident free for over 50 years of riding.
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My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?
I have often thought the same when I see a deer whistle mounted on someone's car, truck, or bike. No telling what the deer will associate the noise with, but with a high population of deer whistles on vehicles, the sound of the whistle will simply become the sound of traffic. ie: part of the environment near a road.
Same thing with headlights on during daytime driving. Humans are very adept at not noticing anything that is commonly experienced.
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Remember, it’s not the speed that will kill you, it’s stopping forward motion to quickly that gets you!
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there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact.
Yep - just like the 3rd brake light. When they first came out decades ago, they DID reduce rear end collisions for a short time.
Then people got used to 'em, and now they're back to running into one another.
(What's the record in the US for a pileup on the interstate: 80-something vehicles?! Why? Following too closely, driving too fast for conditions, and not looking far enough
ahead for changing road conditions. Tell me I'm wrong.....)
I always ride like I'm invisible. Always have an out other than panic braking. No, that's not ALWAYS possible, but you've got to
try to maneuver to make it so if you're caught in a bad situation. Keep space around you. Approaching an intersection or someone
who looks like they are capable of making a left turn? "Jink" a bit - move laterally in the lane to make yourself more visible. Flash
your lights? Hmmm.... maybe not - the other driver could interpret that as an invitation to complete the LH turn, and do so. Remember
that you're a relatively small object and speed of approach is something that drivers habitually misinterpret with motorbikes.
Leave LOTS of room up front!
Anticipation is WAY more important than just relying on reflexes.
There's a school of thought that says that ANY accident that a motorcyclist is involved in is the motorcyclist's fault. Got rear-ended?
You should have been more aware and left enough room to get out of the way. Retread came off of an 18-wheeler in heavy interstate
traffic and hit ya? Should have anticipated that scenario and had an out. Ran over something in the road? Should have been paying more
attention and left enough room up front to maneuver.
Too harsh? Yeah, probably - but looking at things that way keeps one from becoming too complacent, which is the object of the exercise.
"Prepare for what your enemy CAN do - not what you THINK he will do." I've almost certainly slightly misquoted that - who said it? Somebody
on this forum will know......
OTOH, wearing bright clothes can't hurt! :grin:
-Stretch
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Stretch, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that the 3rd brake light no longer reduces reared collisions?
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The new one for me are the flashing yellow lights. Used to be that they were on Highway DOT vehicles and tow trucks. Now every pickup with a name on the door drives around with flashing yellow lights. Now they don't stand out at all. The only ones that stand out are the flashing red and blue. :copcar:
kk
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Interesting thread.
I can't count the amou nt of wrecks I've seen where an idiot plowed into safety cones, flares, flashing lights, police cars and fire trucks.
Million mile rider Karl Wurth didn't ride with a bright yellow jacket. Randy Tefft has a black jacket and he has lots of miles.
I've been hit while unloading gas at a station and I had my 4 ways on and safety cones out.
Do what makes you feel good.
Tex
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I would hate to see the damage the TX Turnip does to the front end of a car!
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Stretch, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that the 3rd brake light no longer reduces reared collisions?
Chad, pretty much everybody agrees that when the third brake light was introduced, it definitely reduced rear-end collisions.
A quick troll through the internet also shows that everybody pretty much agrees that the effectiveness has decreased with time.
The big question is, how much has that effectiveness decreased over time?
Some sources say that there's virtually no difference any more, while government sources
say that they still reduce accidents, but provide no hard numbers to support that claim.
Looking at things anecdotally, I don't think it makes much difference any more, and one or two of the sources I've cited
seem to agree with me there. That's my opinion - YMMV. :grin:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc-rear-end-safety-autocover-0901-20160831-story.html
NHTSA
DOT HS 808 696
NHTSA Technical Report
March 1998
https://www.woodrufflawyers.com/blog/2016/10/rear-end-car-accidents-and-modern-vehicle-requir
-Stretch
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Problem is..
When you say “there’s no difference anymore”, you are presuming you know what the stats would be if the change had never been made in the first place and you never can.
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Am I making a couple of assumptions here?
Oh, yeah! :laugh:
That's why it's an opinion.........
My point was agreeing with Speciality's point that Hi-Vis is becoming less effective the more
people wear it. I think he has a point, and the 3rd brake light was my analogy. And the 3rd brake
light doesn't appear to be as effective as it was at first.
And I'm also gonna continue to assume that I'm invisible to car drivers..... :wink:
(Although not to cops with radar guns!) :copcar:
-Stretch
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If someone told me that the wearing of high visibility clothing would give me a 5% advantage. then I would take it. Nothing is 100%, but a bit of risk management is better than nothing.
I also add extra light to the rear of my bikes. Here's one such example. Helps with the night visibility, and I've noticed that many cars stay back a little more at the stops.
https://youtu.be/5GX626ivc_g (https://youtu.be/5GX626ivc_g)
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Am I making a couple of assumptions here?
Oh, yeah! :laugh:
That's why it's an opinion.........
My point was agreeing with Speciality's point that Hi-Vis is becoming less effective the more
people wear it. I think he has a point, and the 3rd brake light was my analogy. And the 3rd brake
light doesn't appear to be as effective as it was at first.
And I'm also gonna continue to assume that I'm invisible to car drivers..... :wink:
(Although not to cops with radar guns!) :copcar:
-Stretch
Ahhh yes Stretch.
When I used the term “you” I didn’t mean YOU…
My point is that if one claims that a certain measure is “not as effective as it used to be”, one must factor in the other variables that are conspiring to make the sample mor hazardous than it once was.
The new safety measure may very well be more effective than before, but the regime that it exists in has become correspondingly more dangerous.
I could make the erroneous case that seatbelts are killing more people than they save, because the world road toll is greater than it was when they were mandated 50 years ago.
It’s just that there are 20 times more cars on the road now than then, so massively more collisions.
Now you only have 10% of 1000 crash victims dying…(100)
Back then you had 90% of 50 crash victims dying…(45)
I could say based on that Mickey Mouse reasoning that seat belts are dangerous and have no benificial effect.
Yet clearly, without them in my model, you’d have 90 deaths per 100 crashes….We’ll never know and do not have the current data to make a calculation.
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Huzo, you're right - the comparison between the effects of a third brake light in 1985 and
2022 is certainly NOT apples to apples. Lots of variables there. Just traffic volume alone is
completely different. The result of arguing for or against the effectiveness of that dratted
light is NOT going to result in a black and white, irrefutably clear answer.
I suppose at this point I have to apologize for my large contribution in hijacking the
Hi-Vis thread! Sorry about that....... :sad:
Back to colorful clothing!
Aerostich will sell ya a complete suit in Hi-Vis.
-Stretch
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Huzo, you're right - the comparison between the effects of a third brake light in 1985 and
2022 is certainly NOT apples to apples. Lots of variables there. Just traffic volume alone is
completely different. The result of arguing for or against the effectiveness of that dratted
light is NOT going to result in a black and white, irrefutably clear answer.
I suppose at this point I have to apologize for my large contribution in hijacking the
Hi-Vis thread! Sorry about that....... :sad:
Back to colorful clothing!
Aerostich will sell ya a complete suit in Hi-Vis.
-Stretch
Me too Stretch…Love ya’ :kiss:
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LOL!
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My point is that, in the UK at least, there are so many wearers of yellow hi viz vests these days that they no longer attract the attention, hence the appearance of orange hi viz in recent years (and pink, though there could be other reasons for that). The logic is that if everyone wore yellow hi viz it would be the single non-wearer that would stand out. It loses its impact. FWIW I have been riding for more than fifty years and never had a collision of the SMIDSY sort and I’ve never worn hi viz except where mandatory on the continent. As has been said it’s more about maintaining your own safety bubble and treating other road users as if they are incompetent, plus attracting attention by moving road position at junctions. Hi viz won’t do any harm but I wouldn’t adopt the Volvo driver’s mentality of feeling safer wearing it. Until it became mandatory in the UK for headlights to come on when the motor starts I used mine in accordance with the Highway Code ie put them on in poor visibility. Again no SMIDSY incidents. Can I really have been that lucky?
Ahhh, here it isn't so common as to have lost it's ability to stand out.
Yes highway workers use it, but they are hardly common.
That said, common shouldn't be an issue. As most drivers don't constantly hit things that are common. It's not the commonality that is necessarily the issue.
When DRLs became the standard on cars some used the same argument that bike accidents would increase because of some perceived "commonality" where headlights would no longer single then out as somehow "special" or 'unique". But most people avoid hitting other cars and it matters not if they think your headlight means you're a car or a bike, they would likely prefer not to hit you. I don't think the commonality hurts the effectiveness.
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Chad, pretty much everybody agrees that when the third brake light was introduced, it definitely reduced rear-end collisions.
A quick troll through the internet also shows that everybody pretty much agrees that the effectiveness has decreased with time.
The big question is, how much has that effectiveness decreased over time?
Some sources say that there's virtually no difference any more, while government sources
say that they still reduce accidents, but provide no hard numbers to support that claim.
Looking at things anecdotally, I don't think it makes much difference any more, and one or two of the sources I've cited
seem to agree with me there. That's my opinion - YMMV. :grin:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/autos/sc-rear-end-safety-autocover-0901-20160831-story.html
NHTSA
DOT HS 808 696
NHTSA Technical Report
March 1998
https://www.woodrufflawyers.com/blog/2016/10/rear-end-car-accidents-and-modern-vehicle-requir
-Stretch
Eehhhhhhh your first source says:
"Still, the consensus seems to be that the third-light mandate worked. As far back as 1995, an insurance institute study concluded that model year 1986 cars experienced 5 percent fewer rear-end collisions from 1986 through 1991 than would have been expected without the high-mounted lamp"
And the second references the first as it's source.
I don't think it says what you seem to think it says.
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Yep.
....collisions from 1986 through 1991.....
For 5 years it WAS more effective - with effectiveness apparently steadily decreasing.
If it was still as effective in later years, then we'd expect the percentage, (NOT #) of rear-end collisions to remain flat, yes?
But as was discussed earlier, there are other factors involved, and even the experts agree that the
picture ain't as clear as they'd like it to be. And we don't have those statistics from prior to 2014, so we
can't really say definitively. It would seem from the increase in rear-end accidents that something isn't
working, eh? Like maybe people are not paying as much attention to that 3rd brake light anymore?
It would seem that with more SUVs and pickups on the road compared to the 1980s, and the 3rd brake
light higher up off the road in most cases as a result, that the light would be more visible and therefore
more effective. But people following too closely would negate that effect......and on and on we go....
It could also be that the 3rd brake light is still VERY effective and the carnage without it would be much, much worse........... :shocked: :shocked:
Between 1988 — the earliest figures available — and 2014, the percentage of fatal crashes that involved rear-enders actually rose from 4.6 percent to 5.2 percent. Rear-end injury accidents also increased, from 24.9 percent of all crashes to 28.7 percent, according to the NHTSA. Likewise, rear-end property damage-only collisions increased from 23.5 to 29 percent, and the percentage of rear-end accidents jumped from 23.8 to 28.8 percent.
But such raw data can be misleading, experts said, because other factors are involved.
Entertaining debate, but enough for me tonight.
Good Night, everybody!
-Stretch
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I think cell phones should be required to be hi vis so when ass wipe drivers drop them to the floorboards they can find them quicker, and maybe be upright in time to slam on the binders before they mow one of our sorry asses over.
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Yep.
For 5 years it WAS more effective - with effectiveness apparently steadily decreasing.
If it was still as effective in later years, then we'd expect the percentage, (NOT #) of rear-end collisions to remain flat, yes?
But as was discussed earlier, there are other factors involved, and even the experts agree that the
picture ain't as clear as they'd like it to be. And we don't have those statistics from prior to 2014, so we
can't really say definitively. It would seem from the increase in rear-end accidents that something isn't
working, eh? Like maybe people are not paying as much attention to that 3rd brake light anymore?
It would seem that with more SUVs and pickups on the road compared to the 1980s, and the 3rd brake
light higher up off the road in most cases as a result, that the light would be more visible and therefore
more effective. But people following too closely would negate that effect......and on and on we go....
It could also be that the 3rd brake light is still VERY effective and the carnage without it would be much, much worse........... :shocked: :shocked:
Entertaining debate, but enough for me tonight.
Good Night, everybody!
-Stretch
Didn't the same article you sighted say there were other factors.
You can't say it was no longer effective because too many other variables changed.
But i personally think that without conclusive evidence to the contrary it's unwise to assume it no longer helps.
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I go both ways. I’ve installed Denali driving lights on some bikes and I feel that they really help me be seen. I also buy helmets in white and wear a hi-viz mesh jacket in the summer. BUT - when it came time to buy that Aerostich Transit leather suit that I’ve wanted for years, I couldn’t buy it in yellow. It just looks too cool in black.
I guess it’s all about risk management. We all ride - everything else we do to minimize risk is just working around the edges.
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From a legal perspective would a motorcyclist surviving an accident have a better legal defense if he or she was wearing hi vis gear? I know this is subjective if it were to go to a jury . But if you were on a jury in a motor cycle accident suit , would this be even a consideration? I would like to think that doing your due diligence to be visible as a small vehicle on the road would have some significance should the worse happen.
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Not sure, but I’d have thought that a car pulling out into the path of a motorcyclist who was not speeding or breaking the law in any way would be deemed to be at fault. The issue would be more likely to relate not to the guilty party in the case against the driver (probably driving without due care and attention here in the UK), but to contributory negligence of the rider in not mitigating the risk of injury and damage to his or her bike. Then we get into what are the legal requirements for a rider re protective clothing. No helmet: definitely contributory negligence because it is illegal not to wear one. There is no legal requirement to wear hi viz; at best it’s advisory. The law in the States may well be different - possibly between different states - here in the UK traffic laws other than local bye-laws apply throughout.
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When an accident investigation is being conducted by LE, issues like visibility of riding gear is never a deciding factor, no more than the color of a car is.
The question of whether the rider was wearing gear designed to be a higher visibility could come in effect in a civil action. However the investigation of LE is solely determined on the physical facts of why two vehicles collided and it would take several accident investigations manuals to go into that discussion.
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"I always ride like I'm invisible"
Never noticed a difference while riding with a Hi Viz jacket but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. IMO the riding while invisible is the best defense.
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It definitely makes a difference. I wear a white helmet, standard ORANGE safety vest on a black bike. I’ve seen cars look once, start to creep out then look back again and lock their attention on to me. When working for a utility years ago I disagreed with the move away from orange to the lime green. There is some vegetation in the summer that is the exact same color so basically you are camouflaged. This is why hunters stick with the orange. If I forget that vest I turn right around and go get it.
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You're probably going to say it's not the same, but I have had people give me that same double look, while wearing a black helmet, and black jacket.
It's got to be a good idea from a be seen stand point to wear bright gear. I just think it's benefits are often vastly over stated.
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I think drivers to not notice or defer to you due to your level of visibility as much as your level of threat.
I saw a lady the other day on a bike and she was wearing an almost perfect copy of a police uniform. The word “Police” on her vest was replaced with “Polite” which had some other much smaller text with it to give context.
Obviously approaching the boundaries regarding impersonating an officer but I’ll tell you, the eye was drawn IMMEDIATELY to her presence.
In Oz they look like this
(https://i.ibb.co/yNRNNBP/10-D87128-4-B73-4636-A1-DF-
4473-B5-B12-AAF.png) (https://ibb.co/yNRNNBP)
So did she.
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I think drivers to not notice or defer to you due to your level of visibility as much as your level of threat.
I saw a lady the other day on a bike and she was wearing an almost perfect copy of a police uniform. The word “Police” on her vest was replaced with “Polite” which had some other much smaller text with it to give context.
Obviously approaching the boundaries regarding impersonating an officer but I’ll tell you, the eye was drawn IMMEDIATELY to her presence.
So did she.
brilliant!!!
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Wear it if you can tolerate it. When my good buddy Gary Steele was a quarter mile behind me, his bright yellow jacket was more visible than his headlight. We rode thousands of miles like this and I always knew where Gary was.
I am currently wearing a yellow helmet.
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Behavioral psychology may offer some perspective. It’s difficult to be certain that riders wearing hi-viz do not behave in a different way because of their deliberate look-at-me wardrobe choices. Many (most?) riders wearing non hi-viz gear never get hit by cars. is that because of their behavior, the other drivers behavior, the chosen hi-viz/non hi-viz gear, ??. Aside from the reflective gear worn after dark that is illuminated by headlights and makes persons more likely to be seen, regular hi-viz may or may not be part of a direct cause-effect relationship.
Imho, if you ride like you’re going to get hit all the time, you’ll probably be more careful to help prevent it from happening. So presenting yourself in a way that makes you be seen, no matter what you’re wearing, is the best overall strategy. If hi-viz makes the rider more cognoscente of how he or she presents themself, that’s a good enough reason for wearing it.
I’ll even suggest that the most likely way to be noticed by the most drivers in daylight hours is to ride naked. Everybody will look, take pics, post it to the interweb and likely even make you a local celebrity that people try to notice when they’re driving. Everybody here already owns their own naked free & clear, so it’s free- guzzi content… But I hear eye bleach is pretty $$$ where you can find it.
We used to have to wear Hi-Viz to get on base, but then a study came out that said it made little difference so the guidance was rescinded.
I know that Hi Viz gear works best when riding in overcast days than in bright sun. Also works better on naked bikes than fully faired bikes.
Extra lighting and erratic movements while on the bike tend to get more attention than just cruising along at a steady pace and lane position.
Hi-Viz rain gear definitely improves being seen when visibility is already low. More lighting helps as well in that situation. I like SkeneDesign lights and have them on several of my bikes. I haven't added any additional lights to the rear of the V85TT yet.
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White Helmet for 20 years.
Yellow Hi-Viz for a dozen years.
I think it helps, but always remain vigilant and proactive.
(https://i.ibb.co/6rr0SGV/12088268-10205183394084059-1215741288079683949-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6rr0SGV)
upload a picture (https://imgbb.com/)
Always solid white helmet here. 12% less fatal crashes for white helmeted riders. Good enough for me.
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HI ViZ Full face Helmet all the time and generally Hi Viz Armored Jacket and Always armored pants of some kind and ATGATT no matter...
Dressing for the crash not for the ride for over 965,000 miles. *Always riding "Confidently Paranoid". As I would tell my students at the MSF course who bragged that they have never had an accident, - My response was always "Neither did the captain of the Titanic" :grin:
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As you can see, I just got new batteries in my t-shirt. You know, because hi-viz needs to be HI-VIZ !
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52506443483_18e4bb656a_b.jpg)
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Always solid white helmet here. 12% less fatal crashes for white helmeted riders. Good enough for me.
You have to love statistics! Who concluded that the color white is why, versus the type of crash, type of rider, type of bike usually associated with white helmets? LOL!
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You have to love statistics! Who concluded that the color white is why, versus the type of crash, type of rider, type of bike usually associated with white helmets? LOL!
Im curious, where did that data point come from?
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https://motorcyclebrave.com/best-color-for-a-motorcycle-helmet/
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Graces
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https://motorcyclebrave.com/best-color-for-a-motorcycle-helmet/
Not a very impressive website.
And the article is full of arguable conclusions presented as assumptions or unsupported by the methodology or even direct citation of the study in question.
It may contain some truths but I'd be skeptical until better proven.
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Not a very impressive website.
And the article is full of arguable conclusions presented as assumptions or unsupported by the methodology or even direct citation of the study in question.
It may contain some truths but I'd be skeptical until better proven.
Yeah Kev, pretty lame and nebulous.
I reckon it’s about as convincing as…
“University studies suggest…”
Or
“Results from the Pond’s Institute….” (heaps of attractive female scientists with designer glasses and inappropriately unbuttoned white lab coats, glancing sporadically at clip boards..)
Statistics can be made to say anything, true or otherwise.
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The article did link directly to the study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/
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The article did link directly to the study.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387473/
Cool thanks... But WTF was that link?!? Not in my browser.
I'm not thrilled with data from ~500 crashes and about ~1500 observed riders, from New Zealand, in the early 90's, where some 25% weren't using their headlight?!?
It seems largely inapplicable to modern USA, but I'm sure there are a few similarities.
The biggest elephant in the room is a lack of addressing the factors of what mindset of riders might choose a white helmet, or high viz gear, etc.
It also seems that about 50% of the study accident victims were under 25, and many of them teenager. Which really blows the sample for me. I mean what kids are riding around in high viz and white helmets. That kinda is the data fouler in my mind.
But don't get me wrong, I'm ok with the concept that "bright" is good. And headlight on is good. And not being seen is bad ... I mean this is DUH 101 but I'll accept this study suggests that's true.
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I'm amazed that anyone needs a study to confirm what is already obvious. Nobody is mandating that you HAVE to do these things, just that they are available to you. If you want to ride with your lights off dressed like Darth Vader in the dark, then fill your boots. Your body, your life, your choice.
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You have to love statistics! Who concluded that the color white is why, versus the type of crash, type of rider, type of bike usually associated with white helmets? LOL!
Agree, only safety nerds wear white helmets, so there is that.
However, by personal observation, solid helmets do stand out better and white arguably stands out best, so I figure it can’t hurt. Plus, not dying 12% sounds good.
That carbon Viii in your signature sounds like 100% instant death. What is it, the color of asphalt? You best get rid of it pronto.
:thumb:
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I’ll even suggest that the most likely way to be noticed by the most drivers in daylight hours is to ride naked. Everybody will look, take pics, post it to the interweb and likely even make you a local celebrity that people try to notice when they’re driving. Everybody here already owns their own naked free & clear, so it’s free- guzzi content… But I hear eye bleach is pretty $$$ where you can find it.
This cracked me up, I was thinking about the movie MacGruber... They have to break into the bad guys' compound... MacGruber tells his team "I'll create a diversion"
He runs around the side of the building and when he pops back out, he's buck naked with a stalk of celery sticking out of his ass :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :boozing:
(https://variety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/will-forte-macgruber.jpg)
Needless to say, the diversion works and they they storm the compound (spoiler alert)
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Agree, only safety nerds wear white helmets, so there is that.
However, by personal observation, solid helmets do stand out better and white arguably stands out best, so I figure it can’t hurt. Plus, not dying 12% sounds good.
That carbon Viii in your signature sounds like 100% instant death. What is it, the color of asphalt? You best get rid of it pronto.
:thumb:
!…??!?! Didn’t realize the new-to-me, used-but-like-new Shoei that cost $20 at the thrift store makes me a safety nerd. I thought it was just a great helmet for cheap $$ and thus Guzzi content. No matter, I’ll add that to my list of “never been called that before” names.
My comments about habits and attire (or lack thereof) are somewhat sarcastic but also very serious. Riders conscientious enough to make themselves be seen for the right safety reasons are likely to consistently behave much differently than those who simply ride without concern, thinking it’s the other party that needs to notice the rider. The comments about riding paranoid, like you’re invisible, etc are what I’m talking about. Hi viz can’t hurt. But I think it’s potentially as or even more dangerous to just wear hi viz and a white helmet, assume you’ve done your part and ride like it’s the other guys sole responsibility to honor your safety.
Our last few runs of bike rally shirts included hi viz yellow and orange. They always sell out crazy fast. We would have never imagined.
This cracked me up, I was thinking about the movie MacGruber... They have to break into the bad guys' compound... MacGruber tells his team "I'll create a diversion"
He runs around the side of the building and when he pops back out, he's buck naked with a stalk of celery sticking out of his ass :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :boozing:
(https://variety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/will-forte-macgruber.jpg)
Needless to say, the diversion works and they they storm the compound (spoiler alert)
Can’t say I’ve seen that movie.. or that I want to see it now.. or will ever look the same way at celery with peanut butter again…….. thank you, Mr Mayor.
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On the idea of extra lights - how about headlight modulators? Anyone use one on their Guzzi? I’ve wondered about the constant varying current and whether it would stress our already less than robust voltage regulators.
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I used one for years on my Bassa, worked great, no issues with bike, people did notice it for sure.
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I'm amazed that anyone needs a study to confirm what is already obvious.
I couldn't possibly list all the times in life that what would have seemed obvious was proven wrong later....
(again, not that I don't think brighter colors may help, I'm just not convinced of some of the claims made by that "article").
On the idea of extra lights - how about headlight modulators? Anyone use one on their Guzzi? I’ve wondered about the constant varying current and whether it would stress our already less than robust voltage regulators.
I'm a tech and not an electrical engineer so maybe my little bro @jas67 can chime in but I don't think it works that way. I don't think pulsing a light is going to put "stress" on the voltage regulator.
That said, I personally don't care for modulators (front or rear). I think that either can, at a glance, send the wrong signal to a driver and the last thing you want to do is confuse the biggest idiot on the road. Plus I find them personally annoying but that's a totally separate issue, it's just that I find something like that annoying I'm not willing to subject others to it.
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This cracked me up, I was thinking about the movie MacGruber... They have to break into the bad guys' compound... MacGruber tells his team "I'll create a diversion"
He runs around the side of the building and when he pops back out, he's buck naked with a stalk of celery sticking out of his ass :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :boozing:
I'm sticking with putting a couple of cantaloupes inside my jacket.
to each their own!
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That said, I personally don't care for modulators (front or rear). I think that either can, at a glance, send the wrong signal to a driver and the last thing you want to do is confuse the biggest idiot on the road. Plus I find them personally annoying but that's a totally separate issue, it's just that I find something like that annoying I'm not willing to subject others to it.
In some states, the headlight and tail light modulators are illegal and you bike will not pass inspection.
At least that was the case in VA quite a few years back.
I currently have one (installed by the previous owner) on one bike with a 3 position headlight switch. High beam, low beam, and irritating flashing beam!
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In some states, the headlight and tail light modulators are illegal and you bike will not pass inspection.
At least that was the case in VA quite a few years back.
I currently have one (installed by the previous owner) on one bike with a 3 position headlight switch. High beam, low beam, and irritating flashing beam!
I'll put the high beam on for a limited amount of time during the day in high traffic density or similar situations where I think I might benefit from some increased conspicuity. But that's pretty rare. I'll also use the "weave" technique here and there for same situations as perceived/possible.
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In some states, the headlight and tail light modulators are illegal and you bike will not pass inspection.
At least that was the case in VA quite a few years back.
I currently have one (installed by the previous owner) on one bike with a 3 position headlight switch. High beam, low beam, and irritating flashing beam!
Head light modulators are legal in all US states, per federal law. I’m not going to look it up for folks, but it’s simple to look up.
Brake light flashers are something else, I don’t know law on those.
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Head light modulators are legal in all US states, per federal law. I’m not going to look it up for folks, but it’s simple to look up.
Brake light flashers are something else, I don’t know law on those.
https://www.webbikeworld.com/motorcycle-headlight-modulators/
(Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) (49 CFR Part 571.108 S7.9.4) allows motorcycle headlight modulation systems all 50 states provided they comply with the standards set forth in this section.
Title 49 USC 30103 (b1) (US Codes) prohibits any state from forbidding a system that conforms to FMVSS 108.
Lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment – S7.9.4 Motorcycle headlamp modulation system.
S7.9.4.1 A headlamp on a motorcycle may be wired to modulate either the upper beam or the lower beam from its maximum intensity to a
lesser intensity, provided that:
* The rate of modulation shall be 240 ±40 cycles per minute.
* The headlamp shall be operated at maximum power for 50 to 70 percent of each cycle.
* The lowest intensity at any test point shall be not less than 17 percent of the maximum intensity measured at the same point.
* The modulator switch shall be wired in the power lead of the beam filament being modulated and not in the ground side of the circuit.
* Means shall be provided so that both the lower beam and upper beam remain operable in the event of a modulator failure.
* The system shall include a sensor mounted with the axis of its sensing element perpendicular to a horizontal plane. Headlamp modulation shall cease whenever the level of light emitted by a tungsten filament light operating at 3000 deg. Kelvin is either less than 270 lux (25 foot-candles) of direct light for upward pointing sensors or less than 60 lux (5.6 foot-candles) of reflected light for downward pointing sensors. The light is measured by a silicon cell type light meter that is located at the sensor and pointing in the same direction as the sensor. A Kodak Gray Card (Kodak R-27) is placed at ground level to simulate the road surface in testing downward pointing sensors.
* When tested in accordance with the test profile shown in Figure 9, the voltage drop across the modulator when the lamp is on at all test conditions for 12 volt systems and 6 volt systems shall not be greater than 0.45 volt. The modulator shall meet all the provisions of the standard after completion of the test profile shown in Figure 9.
* Means shall be provided so that both the lower and upper beam function at design voltage when the headlamp control switch is in either the lower or upper beam position when the modulator is off.
S7.9.4.2
1 Each motorcycle headlamp modulator not intended as original equipment, or its container, shall be labeled with the maximum
wattage, and the minimum wattage appropriate for its use. Additionally, each such modulator shall comply with S7.9.4.1 (a) through (g) when connected to a headlamp of the maximum rated power and a headlamp of the minimum rated power, and shall provide means so that the modulated beam functions at design voltage when the modulator is off.
2 Instructions, with a diagram, shall be provided for mounting the light sensor including location on the motorcycle, distance above the road surface, and orientation with respect to the light.
https://www.hupy.com/news/are-you-breaking-the-law-for-safety-.cfm
There may be no over-riding federal statute allowing brake light modulators and it may vary by state, assuming that link is up to date (looks like that was 2017). But my initial search isn't hitting on much more information.
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Everyone keeps saying white helmets, but I wear a bright yellow Shoei... Are ya'll saying white is higher visibility than yellow??? I find that hard to believe.
The yellow was my one concession to hi-vis since I have a black/grey bike and usually wear black leather or navy waxed cotton on the bike.
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In 50 years of riding I have had 1 close call. Driver from a side road saw the Harley coming up the hill on his left, decided he could beat it to cross the main road. I was to his right, coming down the hill. Braking franticly sound horn I got lucky and found the escape route. First and only time I thought I might be dead soon on a motorcycle. Never considered dressing up like a modern BMW rider.
As for high vis outfits, I think they might be handy if you are lying in the road at night.
Don
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The only things drivers see are potential threats, something they desire, or potential people to mate with.
If someone doesn’t acknowledge your presence, it’s because they don’t perceive it to be in their interests to do so.
Maybe if we all carried a weapon and rode around naked with a bag on the back labelled with a $ sign.
There’s something they’re scared of, desire and want to get to know.
Otherwise ?
It’s just a matter of time, but you might be lucky and die before someone kills you…..Bonus !
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Riding to work an hour and half ago had a naer miss on the griso a suv almost took me out as they were entering a traffic circle here in melbourne fl i was wearing Hi viz Jacket and gloves and white helmet and 5heu still didnt see me but my horn got their attenion my experience hi viz works 50% the rest is ride like you're invisible which i believe saved me tonight as i had escape route and luckily no one in the center lan3 of cicle . Every one have a happy thanksgiving