Author Topic: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV  (Read 402 times)

Offline old strombolone

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FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« on: November 19, 2022, 09:09:02 AM »
2001 California EV.
Replaced the Fuel Pump about 2 years ago with aftermarket pump from usual sources.
Also installed manual Petcock, purchased from usual sources.
All was well.
Took off one morning with Petcock in "OFF" position...rode about 60 miles. Stopped to get coffee. Went to turn "OFF" petcock, realized it was in "OFF" Position for the whole journey! (OFF to me is screwed "IN", looking up into tank, or turn clockwise from bottom looking up).

I've since been tightening the petcock...

Yesterday morning I turned on the key, forgot to turn on the petcock....and the fuel pump sounds louder (like a buzz).

Took the bike for a 30 mile run...the bike ran well...but I can hear the fuel pump whereas before I didn't (even with ear plugs!).

Question: Did I damage the fuel pump by having the petcock "almost off" ? Was it straining/sucking gas for that 60 mile trip, and did I wear out some bearings or something?
The Fuel Pump was a replacement for a nearly 20 year old pump. This one is about 2 years old. And it was a pain-in-the-butt to install (outside fuel tank, behind side cover).

Would like to hear comments from the usual experts (because you guys are!)

thanks
Mike
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 09:09:33 AM by old strombolone »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2022, 09:45:26 AM »
No answer, but I know this.

I have encountered EVs with the solenoid petcock, and the solenoid wires had failed. The fuel pump was strong enough to pull open the closed solenoid and run just about fine. But it made a lot of noise. I'm guessing there was vapor in the pump gurgling. Once the solenoid wire was repaired, the noise went away.

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Offline marcmorrison

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2022, 10:02:04 AM »
FWIW...being fuel injected, there really is no need to open/close the manual petcock... if repairs are being done that require removal of the tank, then turn it off, otherwise, I'd leave it on.  I've had some experience with these manual petcocks and the rubber o-rings are so vulnerable to warping that minimal use (i.e. turning off/on) should be considered.  As far as the fuel pump noise is concerned, it very well could have been damaged by virtue of having to pull fuel thru a closed petcock; not sure what the definitive test for this situation might be.  At one point in changing out a leaking petcock on my Bassa, I noticed some unusual noises coming from the fuel pump....I had changed out the original fuel pump about 2 yrs. ago and didn't think the pump could be going bad that soon.  I changed out the fuel filter (much easier and cheaper), continued riding and the fuel pump noise eventually disappeared.  Go figure??
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 10:08:42 AM by marcmorrison »
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2022, 11:44:11 AM »
Buy another pump & leave petcock open all the time unless removing tank. It won't hurt a thing if it doesn't leak.
You could also put an earlier petcock on that has a lever. You won't get as much flow volume but enough to satisfy the pump, barely.
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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2022, 11:44:11 AM »

Offline pehayes

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2022, 12:20:14 PM »
Your original post isn't exactly clear.
You did a 60 mile ride with the petcock off and now wonder if you damaged the pump.
You again started the bike with the petcock off and the pump was noisy.  Seems normal performance.
So now you did an additional 30 mile ride but it isn't clear if the petcock was still off or was now opened up.
Pump is still noisy.  Please clarify if the 30 mile ride was with petcock open or closed.

Meanwhile, the whole fuel pumping system on your bike is cleaned by a huge filter up under the tank tunnel.  But, the petcock itself has a tiny screen filter about the size of a 2" pencil.  That screen can easily get clogged or blocked by tank debris and will then perform as if the petcock is closed. Any indications of rust or water inside your tank?  Maybe time to pull the petcock out and see what you can flush away.  With an old school carburetor bike, the actual fuel flow through a manual petcock is pretty slow.  There is not so much tendency for debris to hit and stick on the petcock's little filter.  When the bike is off, said debris falls to the bottom of the tank and doesn't get disturbed much unless you stop to buy fuel.  With a modern fuel injected bike, the pump is circulating a high volume constantly, regardless of speed or actual fuel consumption rate.  Think about the cycling water in your fish aquarium.  Excess fuel is directly back into the tank at a fairly robust rate.  So, the minute by minute flow through through the whole tank and expecially through the little petcock filter is a LOT MORE on an FI bike than a carb bike.  Hence, tank debris begins to play a much bigger role in fuel flow failures (and maybe pump noise).

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline John Croucher

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2022, 01:58:51 PM »
Your original post isn't exactly clear.
You did a 60 mile ride with the petcock off and now wonder if you damaged the pump.
You again started the bike with the petcock off and the pump was noisy.  Seems normal performance.
So now you did an additional 30 mile ride but it isn't clear if the petcock was still off or was now opened up.
Pump is still noisy.  Please clarify if the 30 mile ride was with petcock open or closed.

Meanwhile, the whole fuel pumping system on your bike is cleaned by a huge filter up under the tank tunnel.  But, the petcock itself has a tiny screen filter about the size of a 2" pencil.  That screen can easily get clogged or blocked by tank debris and will then perform as if the petcock is closed. Any indications of rust or water inside your tank?  Maybe time to pull the petcock out and see what you can flush away.  With an old school carburetor bike, the actual fuel flow through a manual petcock is pretty slow.  There is not so much tendency for debris to hit and stick on the petcock's little filter.  When the bike is off, said debris falls to the bottom of the tank and doesn't get disturbed much unless you stop to buy fuel.  With a modern fuel injected bike, the pump is circulating a high volume constantly, regardless of speed or actual fuel consumption rate.  Think about the cycling water in your fish aquarium.  Excess fuel is directly back into the tank at a fairly robust rate.  So, the minute by minute flow through through the whole tank and expecially through the little petcock filter is a LOT MORE on an FI bike than a carb bike.  Hence, tank debris begins to play a much bigger role in fuel flow failures (and maybe pump noise).

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

This would be my guess also.  I have pulled a lot of debris out of the inlet nipple on the fuel pump with the factory fuel filter installed.

I am not running a fuel filter in my f.i. bike.  I only have the screen filter on the petcock.  I know this is not playing by the rules, but I know there could be issues and I know where to look if I have a fuel flow issues.  My bike is far from stock and was put together so I can easily service the fuel lines and pump on the side of the road with a screw driver.  I never close the petcock unless the tank is being removed. 

The fuel pressure regulator return side makes a lot of noise when dumping fuel back into the tank from the high pressure fuel flow.  I can hear the fuel dumping back into the tank and churning the fuel.  If I cannot hear that when turning on the ignition kill switch, I know I have fuel flow problems. 

Offline old strombolone

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2022, 02:33:02 PM »
Your original post isn't exactly clear.
You did a 60 mile ride with the petcock off and now wonder if you damaged the pump.
You again started the bike with the petcock off and the pump was noisy.  Seems normal performance.
So now you did an additional 30 mile ride but it isn't clear if the petcock was still off or was now opened up.
Pump is still noisy.  Please clarify if the 30 mile ride was with petcock open or closed.

Meanwhile, the whole fuel pumping system on your bike is cleaned by a huge filter up under the tank tunnel.  But, the petcock itself has a tiny screen filter about the size of a 2" pencil.  That screen can easily get clogged or blocked by tank debris and will then perform as if the petcock is closed. Any indications of rust or water inside your tank?  Maybe time to pull the petcock out and see what you can flush away.  With an old school carburetor bike, the actual fuel flow through a manual petcock is pretty slow.  There is not so much tendency for debris to hit and stick on the petcock's little filter.  When the bike is off, said debris falls to the bottom of the tank and doesn't get disturbed much unless you stop to buy fuel.  With a modern fuel injected bike, the pump is circulating a high volume constantly, regardless of speed or actual fuel consumption rate.  Think about the cycling water in your fish aquarium.  Excess fuel is directly back into the tank at a fairly robust rate.  So, the minute by minute flow through through the whole tank and expecially through the little petcock filter is a LOT MORE on an FI bike than a carb bike.  Hence, tank debris begins to play a much bigger role in fuel flow failures (and maybe pump noise).

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

The 30 mile ride was with the petcock wide-open (Fuel "ON"). The "noise" is a kind of buzz or hum. I used to have an old Oldsmobile station wagon I bought from a guy for $800, with the apology that the "fuel pump sounds like its going south...I don't have time to replace it.." I proceeded to drive that car with the noisy fuel pump for at least 4 years... then when the brake lines exploded during a panic stop, I decided to make one final drive: To The Junk Yard...but I digress!

The tank was recently inspected with a video probe. How a 20 year old tank can look brand new inside is a mystery to me. There was absolutely ZERO signs of rusting/rotting anywhere. The petcock filter did have some debris around it, but it was miniscule and sandy in nature.





Online Tom

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2022, 04:07:55 PM »
What is the psi of the FI system?
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2022, 06:04:35 AM »
In my experience the fuel pump is toast. Many years ago, I rode the Jackal to the Louisiana rally, and started hearing the pump buzz while there. In my inexperience I didn't realize the solenoid wire had broken, and it was closed. Rode it home, over 1000 miles. It wasn't running well by that time..  :smiley:
It would pump fuel into a bucket, but wouldn't build the required 40 psi. Repairing the solenoid valve and a new fuel pump fixed it. As mentioned above, there is no need to shut off the fuel on an injected engine.
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Offline charlieb / ma

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2022, 08:33:39 AM »
I had the same problem with my Y2k Jackal. I ended up splitting the petcock and removing the solenoid and replacing it with a similar threaded bolt. It was free flowing for years until I needed to fix a tank leak. I repaired the leak and replaced the petcock at the same time.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: FUEL PUMP "BUZZ"....2001 Cal EV
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2022, 08:23:02 AM »
What is the psi of the FI system?
About 40 PSI I think, If the fuel filter plugs off it can go to 70 PSI
A test you can do is measure the current drawn by the pump normal is around 4.5 Amps but it will go as high as 9 Amps when the filter is plugged.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Jackal.gif
Pull out the relay 50 and poke your Ammeter leads into the socket two large pins 30/97 and the pump will run even with the key Off, tell us what current you see.
I'm with the others that say never turn the petcock off, that was the whole idea of the electric petcock, they have a large orofice
This is a very useful document for understanding the Fuel injection system, its old but still relevant
http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf
At the bottom of page 5 it says 4.5 Amps, as the fuel filter plugs it will go up with a corresponding increase of noise.
The filter will give up whatever blocking it if you backlash by pouring fuel into the discharge and letting it run out the inlet into a clear bottle
I once bought an EV in Denver, it had a very noisy pump, turns out the filter was plugged off and the bike would bog down going up the mountains it turned out the tank filler moat drain was rusted closed so that water would collect around the filler and drop into the tank, the tank turned the water to rust, which blocked the filter and of course also plugs the in/tank petcock filters
Check your tank filler drain by dripping some fuel into the tiny drain hole, it should drain straight away.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2022, 09:12:21 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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