2003 moto guzzi stone engine tapping

[Rico88]

Wow! Did he stir up the grinding bits with the oil before replacing the valve covers. Makes a cheap grinding compound for you engine to ingest. Hope he took some precautionary measures before firing up the grinder. Doesn't seem likely, though. Good luck.

He did put a towel down that shouldve collected all the shavings if he pulled it out without dumping the shavings in. Which I am assuming shouldn't have been too difficult to do

[Vasco DG]

(Sigh.) The whole point of the elaborate tool kit supplied for the cam/tappet swap for the Hydro motors is that it obviates the need to remove the heads. Did whoever did the swap read the instructions? Can they read?

There are not only hard copy instructions in the kit, (At least I believe there were, I haven't done one for years and years!) but I think they are still up in PDF format on the service portal.

No, there won't be clearance with hydraulic lifters, that's the whole point of them and why they are so quiet. As for compression? Was this test carried out with the throttle held wide open or the throttle bodies removed? If not you are not dealing with anybody who can even pretend to call themselves a mechanic!

When the tappets fail they shed bits of themselves, very hard chilled cast iron, into the oil. The only part of the engine that gets unfiltered oil is the oil pump and unless the failure is caught very early the pump is almost invariably toast. If the damage is allowed to continue for any length of time the filter will clog and go into bypass and then you end up with a situation like David had where all your bearings will be trashed. Simply 'Flushing' the motor as suggested by the factory is woefully inadequate. At the very least the oil pump needs to be removed and inspected and the galleries flushed. The sump should of been removed and cleaned thoroughly and the OPRV disassembled and cleaned and the galleries flushed.

Everything about this tale shrieks of incompetence and disinterest. I strongly recommended you take your bike somewhere else before it is irredeemably broken!

Pete

[rodekyll]

I'm not sure the parts changes can be done unless the sump is pulled.  How else would you change the oil filter? 

But the parts changes without at the very least cleaning the sump, pulling the pump, and blowing out the galleys is like stitching up a gunshot wound without pulling out the bullet.  If a guy was smart he'd pull rod caps and take a look too, since from them and the pump he might infer something about the condition of the mains.

I'm always looking past what's right in front of me, wondering what the upstream and downstream interactions are -- causes of the problem and the other things it might affect.  I HATE going back into my own work and I REALLY hate it when some other thing a couple degrees removed from the problem fails because I didn't outthink it all the way through.  It amazes me that everyone doesn't think that way.

[Vasco DG]

I just had a scan through the service bulletins and it seems the Hydro Recall instructions are no longer there. No big deal but it does mean that anyone attempting it for the first time would be well advised to ask questions before diving in.

Essentially though you drop the sump, at one cylinder at TDC a compression, remove the rocker gear and pushrods and clamp,on the valve spring compression tool. Then pressurise the cylinder with compressed air to keep the valves on their seats and use the tool to remove the valve springs, caps and collets and replace them with the new ones supplied in the kit. Once this is done the cylinder can be de-pressurised and the tool removed and the rocker carrier replaced and the nuts all re-torqued. Don't forget to replace the o-rings on the long studs.

Repeat for other cylinder.

With the sump off the timing chest should be opened and the chain and sprockets removed. As there are no rockers or pushrods installed there is no need to set it up at any particular point. The 'Grabber' can then be used to pluck the lifters out of the tappets from the top before the camplate is removed and the cam withdrawn. When this is done the tappets, or the remains of them, will tumble down out of the block and onto the bench.

Oil pump should now be removed and inspected and all galleries washed out and blown through to remove crap and detritus. Sump can be cleaned and OPRV removed and cleaned out now as well. Obviously the old filter is discarded along with the old cam, tappets, lifters, springs, caps etc. if needed oil pump should be replaced.

Using the?? 'finger rod' the new tappets, coated in assembley lube to stick 'em in place, can be slid in through the front cam bearing and inserted in their guide holes. Then slather the new cam liberally with assembley lube and reinstall it along with the cam plate. The chain and sprockets can now be reinstalled and timed up and the timing chest cover replaced.

Set one side up on TDC compression and drop the 'False lifter' down into a tappet. Install pushrod and rocker and set valve clearance. Remove rocker and pushrod and use the 'Plucker' to remove the 'False lifter' and replace it with the new hydraulic lifter supplied. Repeat for second valve/rocker and then repeat the operation for both valves on the other cylinder. Finally, snap off the top parts of the adjusters and slap the rocker covers back on.

Reinstall the clean sump with a new filter and fill the engine with 10/40 oil. Spin the motor over on the starter with the plugs out for a couple of minutes to get oil through the bearings and allow the lifters to pump up.

Put plugs back in. Hit the button. Fire it up. Balance the TB's. Go ride.

Lovely!

Pete

[Vasco DG]

If you have a copy of the instructions I'd be very grateful if you could send them to me. I'll try and get them into a format that is easily downloadable and can send it to Greg Bender or someone who can pop it up on his site for future refference.

Pete

[Waltr]

  This may be obvious but make sure they changed the exhaust header to head gaskets. Not part of the recall but when we put ours back together there was a tapping and the gaskets needed to be changed.  You can use a big screwdriver as a stethoscope to help locate engine sounds.
Walt

[Chuck in Indiana]

I hear moto guzzi engines aren't known to be high compression performance engines.

You heard wrong.

He tried to break off the tabs with vise grips, but couldn't do so, so he grabbed an air grinder  with a cut off wheel on it and cut off the tabs.

Jeee sus! Run, do not walk away. The guy is absolutely clueless,and has probably trashed your engine. I hate to bear bad tidings, but that's my gut feeling.

[Rico88]

Vasco, Rico88:  Please check your PMs.

Thank you! Looking at this, I don't think everything was done that was supposed to be done. I don't recall them mentioning anything about inspecting the oil pump (but hopefully I am wrong).

The only issues I know of right now are:
1) Oil leak on the from of the engine that appears to be coming from the front timing cover.
2) Engine noise that appears to be coming from an exhaust leak where exhaust pipe connects to the cylinder head.
3) unknown magnetic metal debris in the oil pan, (about 20 fine granules, copper-ish in color which are signs they have been exposed to high heat, and magnetic so its not aluminum).
4) Compression test from a good mechanic, that admittedly does not have a lot of experience with hydraulic lifters. But I feel has a strong understanding of mechanical mechanics (does a lot of work on ducati motorcycles), Got a reading of 115 on the left cylinder, and 130 on the right.

What I don't know is:
1) If the oil pump has been damaged, or if their is other hidden damage from this recall.
2) If/if not the valves are still adjusted properly after the engine was ridden for about 100 miles without the tabs being broken off.

Unfortunately I maxed out my credit card paying for the 12,000 Mile service so I can't afford to pay someone to do recall over again, and moto guzzi has already 'paid' for this service to be done.

If I get the oil and exhaust leaks fixed, and continue to ride the bike, it is my understanding one of two things will happen.

Either A: (optimistic) the compression test was performed wrong, the valves happened to not be affected by the fact that I was given the bike without the tabs being broken off, and the recall was done at such a low mileage (9k miles) that the oil pump has not sustained substantial damage from metal debris in the engine. The bike will Run like a dream and we live happily ever after.

Option B: (pessimistic) The valves are not adjusted properly, the Bike run's a little rough, but still runs. The oil pump is damaged but still functions for now (acts as a ticking time bomb). If the oil pump does go out, then the bike will stop pumping oil (hopefully my oil pressure light will come on), but by that time it is probably too late, my engine will seize due to no oil, and the motorcycle will become an expensive paper weight.

Does that sound accurate?

[Vasco DG]

I'm guessing the compression test was performed wrongly for starters. On any 2V big block Cali I'd be expecting to see 150-160 PSI cold cranking unless there was something wrong. I think the 'Mechanic' doesn't know that you have to have the inlet tracts open to get a proper compression reading so he isn't a mechanic, QED. You could ask him to perform a leak down test but I fear you'd just get a blank stare.

Look, there are a number of things you can do cheaply yourself that may mitigate against disaster. Firstly buy an oil filter and a couple of rocker cover gaskets and a sump gasket. I'd also suggest a timing chest gasket but let's start off with small steps Eh?

Drain the oil and discard it. Now drop the sump, (14 bolts arround the periphery and four underneath.) and drop the sump. How much frag is there in there? If the answer is 'A fair bit' then there is no way the recall has been performed correctly. Remove the filter and oil pressure relief valve, clean the valve by taking it apart and washing it in kero and rinse the sump and all its galleries thoroughly and blow out with compressed air. Install new filter. Leave the sump off for now.

Next whip off the rocker covers and have a look for debris left by the shaved ape when he took an angle grinder to the adjusters. Grab another bottle of kero and rinse the whole head area but try to minimise and prevent it going down the pushrod tunnels. Down the oil return holes in the outer edges of the heads is fine. Put a container/tray under the block to catch it as it rinses down. Now wipe around the inside of the block with a clean rag checking it regularly for particulate matter.

Now re-fit the rocker covers with new gaskets and the sump with a new gasket. Make sure all the old gaskets are removed from BOTH mating surfaces and the oil ways in the gaskets align with the castings in the sump. Double check the filter is tight and re-install the sump.

Fill with 3.5 litres of 10/40 oil, spin it up with the plugs out for a minute to get the oil circulating and the lifters pumped up. Pray a lot!

At least when you have done this you can be pretty certain you've got most of the crap out of the motor. The fact you are finding detritus on the plug is worrying but at least it's ferrous. The copper colour had me worried that it might be bits of big end shell but these are trimetal and non magnetic.

What it won't tell you is the state of your oil pump which may be seriously compromised, a problem made worse by the requirement for a light oil in the hydro motors. While the rocker covers are off take a look at the valve spring retainer caps too. Are they bright, shiny, aluminium? Or are they a dull brown steel? If the latter it is another sign the recall has not been performed correctly as new caps and springs were specified, the original caps being steel and the recall replacements being alluminium, presumably to minimise reciprocating weight in the valve train

Pete

[krglorioso]

And, to keep the oil filter from rotating and losing oil pressure over time, do the usual preventive and place a hose clamp around it.  Details on this forum.

Also, I note that both Lannis and Pete Roper are suggesting a refill with 10/40 oil.  Factory bulletin and Dave Richardson both suggest 5/40 full synthetic for the hydros.  Have I missed something? (Wouldn't be the first time.)

3.5 Liters of oil?  The factory supplement for the '03 and later hydros says "3 liters".  If 3.5 is considered safe, I'll use that amount, but I want to hear clearly that I won't get a mess of blow-by if I do that. 

Ralph

[Vasco DG]

If the filter has been replaced you can use 3.5 litres and it still won't be at the full mark on the stick usually. The important thing is to have it below the 'Full' mark. Other than that the quantity doesn't really matter a lot, it'll find its own level.

As for the viscosity? 5/40? 10/40? I'm not going to die in a ditch over it.

Pete

[Lannis]

Also, I note that both Lannis and Pete Roper are suggesting a refill with 10/40 oil.  Factory bulletin and Dave Richardson both suggest 5/40 full synthetic for the hydros.  Have I missed something? (Wouldn't be the first time.)

Ralph

OI!  I invoke the SODDI defense, your honor.  (Some Other Dude Done It!)   I haven't even posted on this thread, and if I did,  I wouldn't be the one anyone would want to see adding my two cents worth to Roper's recommendations on oil viscosity.   

"I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"

Lannis

[krglorioso]

Thank you, Pete. I'll keep the oil below the "Full" mark and not focus on just how much went into the sump.

[Rico88]

So unfortunately I don't really have a place to work on my bike. One of the reasons why I take it to someone else to work on. (that, and last time I tried to work on my jeep, I ended up causing more damage than I fixed..)

But thinking about it. Shouldn't any metal that was left behind have already worked its way down to the sump? I have put almost 3k miles on it since the 'recall.' I am hoping, that the metal at the bottom, was just all that was left behind from before the recall. Shouldn't the mesh filter and oil filter stop the rest of the metal? (though I guess by the time it made its way down there it had already gone through the oil pump?)

If the metal is all gone from the engine, (I did have the sump cleaned and blown out, and the heads were cleaned as well) how big of a job would it be to have someone replace the oil pump? just looking at the recall work, it looks like it is one of the last things before piecing the bike back together, which leads me to believe, the whole front end would pretty much have to be taken apart to get to it. Is that relatively accurate?

As for the oil. Right now the bike has golden spectro 20w/50 oil in it. I keep reading and hearing different things on the subject for oil on the bike. Though if lannis and roper are suggesting 10/40 my inclination would be to use what they suggest.

Will having the spectro 20w50 cause problems for the hydro? Should I replace it with 10/40? and If so, what 10/40 do you guys use?
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-10W-40-Full-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Oil-1qt/16767829
Would that be what I would want?

[krglorioso]

OI!  I invoke the SODDI defense, your honor.  (Some Other Dude Done It!)   I haven't even posted on this thread, and if I did,  I wouldn't be the one anyone would want to see adding my two cents worth to Roper's recommendations on oil viscosity.   

"I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"

Lannis

You are correct, Lannis.  My error and my apologies to you.  My mind is slipping.  Were I still riding flat track I would have a crew member at the end of each straightaway holding a large sign, "98D  Turn LEFT".  It's enough to remember which side of the Stones' handlebar has the horn button and which has the starter button.

Ralph

[geoff in almonte]

The owners manual for my 04 EVT Hydro calls for 5W40 full synthectic.

I run that weight in the spring/fall and a 5W50 full synthetic in the hotter months.  I have over 100,000 miles on the bike and it seems to run better - no oil usage, smoother, it just 'feels' better with the 5W50 in it.  The recall was done on my bike before the original owner took delivery.

Good luck.

G

[youcanrunnaked]

Not to convert this into an oil thread, but in my hydro EV, I use Shell Rotella T6 full syn 5W-40.  It's a diesel-spec oil, which means it is high in zinc and phosphorous (i.e., good for motorcycle engines).  

Not that it matters for a Guzzi, but it also works well for wet clutches.  In fact, the Rotella T4 specs work across the board for all four of our motorcycles, which simplifies my maintenance routine, as I only have to stock one engine oil.

Another bonus it that it's readily available, and usually on sale or with rebates it can be had for around $21 per gallon.

http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t6.html


From Moto Guzzi Technical Note No. 010-2006, dated 28-07-2006:

1100 SERIES California - Hydraulic Tappets
Engine Oil: RACING 4T 5W-40
Oil to be compulsorily used for a correct operation of hydraulic tappets

[Rico88]

Rico.

First of all, my condolences that you are caught in this mess.  I had similar frustration when my engine failed after the 1st recall and I had to go out of state to find a dealer to do the final recall.  I also lack confidence in my mechanical abilities, so tearing the whole engine apart is pretty daunting.

That being said, I still think you need to mitigate the chances that your engine will be trashed.  The steps that Pete recommended in  « Reply #41 on: February 28, 2015, 07:28:58 PM »  of this thread, would give you a fair chance at avoiding disaster.  The only change I would make is 5w40 for the oil.  That's what the manual specifies, so that's what I would use.

Good luck.  Once you get through this, you'll love the bike.

Thanks! I do really love the bike, which is why I am so concerned about fixing anything I can before it turns into a problem. I will take it to a mechanic and see if they can clean that for me hopefully without charging me an arm and a leg. Then Hopefully I will be done with this mess, and can ride it without worry.

[Howard R]

"I ain't even got a garage, you can call home and ask my wife!"

Lannis

But I bet you & Charlie woulda "had 'em all out there steppin and fetchin"!

Howard

[Rico88]

Not to convert this into an oil thread, but in my hydro EV, I use Shell Rotella T4 full syn 5W-40.  It's a diesel-spec oil, which means it is high in zinc and phosphorous (i.e., good for motorcycle engines).  

Not that it matters for a Guzzi, but it also works well for wet clutches.  In fact, the Rotella T4 specs work across the board for all four of our motorcycles, which simplifies my maintenance routine, as I only have to stock one engine oil.

Another bonus it that it's readily available, and usually on sale or with rebates it can be had for around $21 per gallon.

http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t6.html


From Moto Guzzi Technical Note No. 010-2006, dated 28-07-2006:

1100 SERIES California - Hydraulic Tappets
Engine Oil: RACING 4T 5W-40
Oil to be compulsorily used for a correct operation of hydraulic tappets

it was the zinc in the spectro oil that is why my mechanic recommended that oil over the rockoil 10w60 the dealer put in.
My question about the racing t4 5w-40 you are recommending. The link you shared says "t6", and on their products website I don't see a "t4". Is there a difference between "t4" and "t6"?

[youcanrunnaked]

Sorry, I meant Rotella T6.  I am unaware of any difference. Fixed it.

I apologize for the confusion.

[Rico88]

Also, can someone tell me what would happen if my oil pump stopped working, and How I would know? Would the oil light come on, implying the engine is not getting oil, and the engine seize up or something? Also, how long can I expect an oil pump to last under normal conditions? if I want to keep this bike for 150k miles or more (Is that a reasonable expectation?), will I expect to change the oil pump? And if so, will it want to be changed after 60k miles or something? or would it only be replaced only after it fails?

[Chuck in Indiana]

what would happen if my oil pump stopped working, and How I would know?

There would be a red light followed shortly by the dreaded "dogga dogga" noise.  ;D

Also, how long can I expect an oil pump to last under normal conditions?

forever

if I want to keep this bike for 150k miles or more (Is that a reasonable expectation?), will I expect to change the oil pump?

Not normally.

or would it only be replaced only after it fails?

If it fails, you'll be replacing more than the oil pump. It's the heart of the engine, if you will. If it dies, so will the engine.

[Rico88]

So if it has been slightly damaged due to before the metal from the tappets, but still works fine now and all the metal has been cleaned out (and I re-clean the engine to ensure of that). Then should the pump still last forever? or can I expect the pump to now wear out slowly? like cracks in a rock that allow water to get in and freeze and melt, slowly increasing the crack and breaking the rock apart if you will. (not an exact analogy, but I am going for that kind of concept.)

[oldbike54]

Well , replace it before it fails . The engine won't last long if it quits .
 Dusty


Sent from a submarine in Oklahoma .

[rodekyll]

It depends on what damage (if any) is inside.  Mine had the bearings chewed up.  If yours are damaged yes, the pump is going to fail.  But there's nothing to gain by talking about it -- you need to look.

[Vasco DG]

The way the twin-gear pump works is that as the gears spin oil is carried around the outside of the gears in the 'Pockets' between the teeth. For this to work there has to be very tight clearances between both the outside of the gear teeth and the pump housing and also the sides of the gears and the face of the crankcase they run against and the face of the pump.

If great chunks of tappet have gone through the pump and gouged any of the faces then the pum's action will be compromised. The lower viscosity of the oil used in the hydros just makes matters worse.

If the pump's ability is compromised enough there will be insufficient pressure at the bearings and they will fail and seize. The first to go are usually the big ends, closely followed by the rear and then front main. Almost invariably the crank will be trashed too.

You need to inspect the pump.

Pete

[Rico88]

Alright. Thank you everyone for all your responses! I will bite the bullet, and pay someone to clean it as Pete described. While they are at it, I will have them replace the oil pump, since I will already have all the labor paid for if I am having them inspect it, so I might as well just pay for the part too and have the extra piece of mind. And I will have them replace the 20w50 spectro with shell rotella t6 5w-50.
Unless anyone sees any problems with this I think I will soon be finally done with it all.

[rodekyll]

The flip side is that a new pump is expensive.  I wouldn't replace it just because I was in there.  I'd need a reason.  If the mechanic inspects it and says it's good, I'd keep it.  As has been said, an undamaged pump should outlast the rest of the engine.  However, I'd not bat an eye to replace it if the mechanic said so.

[Rico88]

Ok, So I replaced the spectro oil 20w-50 with rotella 5w-40. I put in 3 Liters, But didn't drop the sump. I just heated up the bike and drained it from the drain plug. It looks like the oil is just above the full line. But you guys said to keep it below the full line. What happens if there is too much oil in there?

Also I am planning on having the oil pump inspected, I just wanted to make sure I am not driving around on the wrong oil for longer than I have to.
When I drained the oil (its been in there for about 130 miles. I noticed it to have a milky white substance in it. As it was draining there were some signs of milky white streaks, but overall it looked like coffee with a little cream in it..

Would this have anything to do with the recall or putting in the wrong oil? could this also be from the leaking exhaust gaskets that I just had replaced during this 130 miles?