Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT

[jas67]

Interesting 860GT: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-ducati-mike-hailwood-recreation-based-on-a-ducati-860-gt/

Looks like he put a fair amount of money into it. Sadly its very hard to sell a custom or tribute for anything close to what has been invested.

Sadly, it only sold for $8,007.

[Lannis]

Looks like he put a fair amount of money into it. Sadly its very hard to sell a custom or tribute for anything close to what has been invested.


Sadly, it only sold for $8,007.

Wasn't "sadly" from the buyer's perspective!    He bought it for the current market price (by definition) ... 

Lannis

[canuck750]

He bought it for the current market price (by definition) ... 
Lannis

Yep, the market for custom builds is never what the builder thinks it is, been there, done that with my Yamaha XT / TT 50 fling.

[jas67]

Wasn't "sadly" from the buyer's perspective!    He bought it for the current market price (by definition) ... 

Lannis

True.  I’d say that the buyer got a good deal.

[canuck750]

Ok its come to this, ….. again, 



I am not to good at leaving things as they are, I got back from a one week motorcycle trip from Phoenix via Vegas, San Francisco, Portland and home to Edmonton and once I was home the itch to pull something apart took over.

I have my Moto Morini 500 pulled apart, only 80 psi on one cylinder and 120 on the other and new oversize piston kits on order so nothing in particular to work on and the Ducati needs a rebuild so I put it on the bench and pulled it all apart.

Sheet metal off to the painter, parts to be replated go out next week and the cad plating box is filling up. Frame, swing arm, stands, triples go to the powder coater, wheels to be stripped next week and the rims get new chrome.

[swooshdave]

I wished you would have stopped by when you were in Portland.

[jas67]

Ok its come to this, ….. again, 
.....
I am not to good at leaving things as they are, ....the Ducati needs a rebuild so I put it on the bench and pulled it all apart.

I have no doubt you'll have the nicest 860GT in the world when you're done.
Can't wait to see the final result.   

[canuck750]

I wished you would have stopped by when you were in Portland.

Sorry Dave, I was riding with my older son and we got in around 6:00 p.m. and he wanted to stay downtown and watch the MMA fights at the Buffalo Wings bar then we were on the clock to make Edmonton Monday night so we were off first thing in the morning. This was the first time I have ridden into Portland.

Wow what a beautiful city!!

I will definitely be back through again and will make proper plans and say hello.

[canuck750]

Since I don't plan on splitting the crank cases I went back to my old stand by for cleaning aluminum, NAPA Aluminum Brightener diluted 50% with tap water.

As I have stated before this stuff contains hydrofluoric acid, extremely dangerous stuff, only use this product outdoors, wear a full face respirator with organic acid cartridges, rubber gloves and a rain suit. A high pressure car wash is needed to get the oxidation off the casting after the acid starts to do its work. 

I plugged all the openings with various plastic / pvc / abs plugs and clear silicone and let the silicone harden over night.

Fill a mister bottle with the 50/50 solution, liberally soak the castings, let the white foam build up then hit the area with as high a pressure as you can find. My pressure washer is a cheap unit and it takes a lot of passes to get the aluminum clean.

I made 8 passes of solution / high pressure water blast to clean the engine. Then I dried the motor with compressed air and let it dry in the sun.

Regardless of how many passes of acid and pressure wash the castings will be slightly discoloured. I filled a pail with clean glass bead and used a siphon pistol blaster and compressed air to get the last of the oxidation off.

This process takes some patience and its not as nice as finish as vapour blasting but still it does leave a very presentable finish.

Before acid wash / bead blast



After acid wash and a light bead blast




I will pull the heads and cylinders, measure the bores, check the guides and vapour blast the parts that come off the motor.

The nice thing about the acid process is you can do this with the engine in the bike if you carefully seal everting off. From my experience the only thing the acid will effect is black anodizing so keep it off brake calipers and rotors.


If you follow proper safety protocol the acid process is safe and very effective. I just vacuum the used glass bead up off the drive way and throw it out. I used about 1/4 of a bag of glass bead to clean the motor. I will give the whole engine a spray of ACF50 before it goes back into the frame. And that's it, a couple hours of easy work and the engine looks close to new again.

Wheels stripped and old spokes and nipples soaking in rust remover. I soaked the wheels with a lot pf penetrating fluid the night before so the spokes came apart surprisingly easy. I had new stainless  steel spokes and nipples made by Buchannan's but I want to save the old spokes and have them cad plated for spares. I hate throwing out old spokes, you never know when some one can make use of them.

[jas67]

Wow, Jim, that motor looks great!
I will make a mental note of your method, and employ it, especially since I don't have a vapor blaster.

[Zinfan]

Don't skimp on safety when using hydrofluoric acid.  In my previous work life we would dissolve glass fiber filters in concentrated HF and it is very very dangerous to work with in strong concentrations.  Diluted solutions still require care and concern.  Bike project is looking good.

[swooshdave]

Sorry Dave, I was riding with my older son and we got in around 6:00 p.m. and he wanted to stay downtown and watch the MMA fights at the Buffalo Wings bar then we were on the clock to make Edmonton Monday night so we were off first thing in the morning. This was the first time I have ridden into Portland.

Wow what a beautiful city!!

I will definitely be back through again and will make proper plans and say hello.

I understand. Shhh, don't tell anyone else what it's like here. We have too many people as it is. 

[canuck750]

Spent part of Sunday blasting and wire brush on the cad plated parts, I try to save the original fasteners with the exception of the engine case bolts which will be replaced with polished stainless steel. Getting parts cad plated is very cheap but the devil is in the prep, if you want the fasteners to shine then the bare metal must be shiny prior to plating. I pay around $70 CDN for a bucket of parts, hard to beat that price!


Dropped the parts that need chrome off at Alberta Plating in Calgary, they told me plating the original flanged steel rims won't be cheap, hard to get into the flanges and around the nipples, at $300 a wheel it was probably no more expensive to go to flanged aluminum rims but I want it stock, so bite the bullet.


Stripped the frame and all the small black bits that need powder coating and left the lot of it with Impact Coatings in Edmonton, they do top notch powder coating.

Polished up the case side covers, I will pull the heads and cylinders this week t check the bores and guides.

I found the left and right control perches and switches on Ebay, stripped and powder coated the alloy castings and will fit new switches


There are a couple small things I am looking for, one is the removable hinge that bolts to the seat pan, I have two 1975 860 GT seats and the hinge bracket is missing from both, I could make one if nothing shows up. I found the instrument halves for the Smith mount brackets and am looking for the lower parts, again I could modify the ones I have by getting two more of the Smith upper mounts and welding them to the lower tabs I have. No big rush, everything eventually shows up on Ebay somewhere.

[Muzz]

 

Looking good.  the donk has come up really nicely.

[swooshdave]

I don't think you want to powder coat the switch gear, it will be too thick. Maybe your painter can put it on real thin? Nothing wrong with regular paint on parts like that.

[Muzz]

Don't skimp on safety when using hydrofluoric acid.  In my previous work life we would dissolve glass fiber filters in concentrated HF and it is very very dangerous to work with in strong concentrations.  Diluted solutions still require care and concern.  Bike project is looking good.

THIS!!!!!!

In a former life I was a lab tech in a glass works doing quantitative analyses.  To test for sodium the first step was dissolve the sample in conc. hydroflouric acid.  That stuff is MEAN.  Watching the fumes go up the fume cupboard had me hoping that done escaped.

Our glass etcher had a faulty pair of gloves from new; one had a pinhole in it.  He was off work for over a week despite acting as soon as he knew something was wrong. I got under his finger nail and even after neutralising it it still burned him badly.  The only way he could sleep was numb his finger in ice water, pain killers didn't help much.  Awful stuff.

[canuck750]

I don't think you want to powder coat the switch gear, it will be too thick. Maybe your painter can put it on real thin? Nothing wrong with regular paint on parts like that.

Just painting the outside of the cast aluminum switch housing / lever perches, I masked off the inside and fitted sacrificial bolts to all threaded parts to keep powder out.

Today I pulled the rear head / cylinder off to have a look at what the condition of the bore / valves.





The cylinder is measuring 86.01 +/- so appears to be stock, no scores or ridges, piston clearance is in spec, 0.20 at the pin a little less in line with the valves

No scoring on the piston skirt

Ring gap is past spec at 0.52, an new set will go in each cylinder.

Valve seals are brittle, exhaust cap just broke up trying to pull it off, The guides feel just OK, will replace the guides with stock sizes and the valves are not pitted or burnt.

Having a bugger of a time trying to get the cam nut off, rattle gun wont budge it, I think I need to order the correct cam holding tool, afraid to give it any force, it seems like a delicate assembly.  Nut is left hand thread (opposite of standard nut)?

Rocker pins pulled out with a bolt and series of sockets,



The bushing in the rocker are to shaft has some movement, not a lot, should I be concerned?

I am used to Guzzi V Twins, think industrial strength and simple, first impression of the Ducati L Twin complex and delicate, perhaps not a fair comparison, just my initial impression.

[swooshdave]

Did you hear the head prior to pulling the rocker shafts? Are they an interference fit?

[canuck750]

THIS!!!!!!

In a former life I was a lab tech in a glass works doing quantitative analyses.  To test for sodium the first step was dissolve the sample in conc. hydroflouric acid.  That stuff is MEAN.  Watching the fumes go up the

Indeed, the NAPA Aluminum brighteners active ingredient is Hydrofluoric acid, diluted and I dilute it 50/50. I really don't use it much anymore since I got a vapour blaster but on this build I don't want to split the cases so there is no safe way to vapour blast the cases hence the acid route. I can't stress enough the need for proper protection using a quality full face respirator with acid filters, rubber gloves, rubber boots, rain suit etc.

Once I pulled the cylinder I vapour blasted it, its such a safe, clean and quick process and the results make the alloy casting look like new.

[canuck750]

Did you hear the head prior to pulling the rocker shafts? Are they an interference fit?

I did not heat the head, the rockers pulled out fairly easily with a puller. Just took time using longer sockets, washer and different length bolts. Bevel Heaven sells a proper puller tool but I had a variety of proper metric bolts that fit the thread pattern.

I got a used Haines manual in the mail today so its time to do some reading. I have a hard copy of the factory manual but I feel its a bit lacking in detailed information.

I took a long look at the wiring diagram and the remnants of my cut up wiring harness and ordered 10 feet of every colour of wire listed on the diagram to make the new harness. My harness has had the original switch wires and connectors cut off and an ugly assortment of crimp connectors fixed to Honda switches. The headlight and idiot light ends were also cut up, taped over, etc... So many of the bikes I have worked on have had the original wire harness all cut up and messed with. We Guzzi guys are spoiled having Greg Bender offer all of the Guzzi wire harness kits made to the exact pattern of the originals for very fair prices. I had to make my own Laverda and Moto Morini harness, not that its difficult IF the original harness exists.

The Moto Morini 500 has to be the 'switch board' of Italian motorcycle wiring! The Ducati 860 is simple in comparison. Once you understand it the Morini design makes sense and since every system has its own 'harness' trouble shooting is simple


Then there is Laverda, two rows of these CEV connector blocks, and wires going back and forth along the frame top tube, its very busy and could be so much simpler and the gas tank has to come off to get to this junction


Benelli must have used the same electrical designers as Morini, wires cross over the fuses making it a pain to change fuses


Moto Guzzi used the same style of CEV fuse box as Moto Morini and Benelli, but their layout for the V7 Sport is the cleanest and simplest of them all.

[canuck750]

I pulled the front cylinder / head today, same shape and measurements as the rear one. Carboned up, maybe the bike was et up too rich for far too long. Got the cams out, all the bearings feel ok. Ordered over size valve guides, new valve seals, exhaust valves, circlips, rings, gaskets and O rings. I will hone the cylinders and fit the new rings, I think that's as far as I will go on the engine, leaving the bottom end as it is. The con rods feel pretty tight and the engine ran quiet with no strange noises. Vapour blasted all the bare castings and then ran a bottom tap through all the threaded holes.

Ever notice the cooling fins are orientated differently from the front to rear cylinders to allow for maximum air flow? clever



Valve seats look fine, will get the valves / seats cut



Case gaskets peeled off and ready to go back together.

[Muzz]

Ever notice the cooling fins are orientated differently from the front to rear cylinders to allow for maximum air flow? clever

The first production racer that they built from the bevel drive they put  a rear cylinder on the front, I guess because of a bigger fin area.

[canuck750]

Little things make me happy

I am fortunate to live in an area where the majority of the oil field service activity occurs with so many specialty shops. B&H Metal refinishing in Edmonton specialize in cadmium plating on an industrial scale. I am so fortunate that the shop owner is a gear head and takes the time and care to plate small orders for guys like me. He has never lost a single part in the 10+ years I have dealt with him. I took a little more time preparing the parts this time going the extra step of polishing the bolt heads prior to plating to get as close to original appearance as possible. Like all finishing process the end result is only as good as the preparation; parts must be cleaned off grease, oil and rust and if a bright surface is desired then the part needs to be polished prior to plating.



I saved all the original rusty spokes and nipples(but I am fitting new stainless ones), these were cleaned and then run over with a brass wire wheel, not polished.



Bolt heads polished, the picture really doesn't do the finish justice


I could have replaced most of the nuts and bolts with new plated parts or stainless but to me it seems a shame to throw out all the original fasteners, the whole lot cost me $80 to have platted.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Nice..

[canuck750]

The forks got stripped down new seals and O rings, reproduction dust caps  and I polished the bottom sliders



Transducer boots and high tension leads replaced

And I picked up the tin work from the  painter yesterday, once again Craig did an amazing job


Wheels have been respoked with new stainless kits from Buchannan's and the rims went to the chrome shop to be re-plated, all built up now with new bearings and they went off to get new tires mounted this week.

I will get the frame suspended next week and start to put it all back together.

[smdl]

Thanks for keeping us posted, Jim.  It's going to be a beauty!

Cheers,
Shaun

[SIR REAL ED]

Such cool dna in those. Those lines do grow on a guy as they age.

Strange but true, back in the day, I thought they were one of the ugliest motorcycles ever made.  Now, I like it!

[canuck750]

Strange but true, back in the day, I thought they were one of the ugliest motorcycles ever made.  Now, I like it!

I think its still pretty ugly today but that's part of the charm of this bike

Started to assemble a few things today starting with the swing arm, the eccentric swing arm / chain tensioner is pretty neat, I like the simple design of the pins that retain the axle and the cirlcips that centre the axle in the aluminum eccentrics



If the assembly is kept clean and lubricated the swing arm should move back and forth true to the frame, start with a pin in one side then drive the axle all the way to the opposite side until the pin can be fit then fit one circlip, drive the axle tight to the clip and fit the circlip to the opposite side



Once the circlips are in the axle is centred, nice simple design

Rebuilt shocks and replated reflector brackets, I bought some repro reflectors to use



New steering stem bearings



tapped the races in with a brass drift



I think the lower triple got dropped by the powder coater, the threads on the stem are buggered on one side, I tried filling the stem with a thread file but its not the best, I need to find a big die, I think the stem is 25mm x 1.0 ??



new headlight bracket rubber bushings and replated hardware



Fitted the upper triple without the top stem nut, will need to run a die around the stem threads\

[Bobic69]

A mate of mine has a '76 900SS that he rides almost daily. Even takes it on dirt when he goes camping! We keep telling him that he's crazy and should get a second bike but he loves riding it so much that he just doesn't care.

nice bike, as long as you dont plan to ride it much.
forget everything you now about expensive spare parts, ducati bevels spare parts are in a class of their own.
i recently tried  to buy a used engine cover for my ss, bid on ebay , the cover eventually  sold for over 1000 dollar
huh? 
that is what keeping me from riding my 900SS more , even a small mishap will end up pretty expensive.

having said that , you will be appreciating the guzzi spare parts availability

[nc43bsa]

I think the lower triple got dropped by the powder coater, the threads on the stem are buggered on one side, I tried filling the stem with a thread file but its not the best, I need to find a big die, I think the stem is 25mm x 1.0 ??

You can straighten the threads with a thread file, if you determine what pitch the stem is.