Author Topic: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000  (Read 882 times)

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« on: May 02, 2021, 02:07:06 AM »
My Norge has a bit of a rattle coming from what I think is the left side. I cannot swear it is in the overhead gear but it might be, although sounds lower in the crankcase. I know that it is not the camchain.
Question is...
Where are the possible sources of a rattle that sounds about the same frequency as a loose tappet..(which it is not).
Pete says it could very well be some end float in the camshaft, but when I put my gears in, Iíll replace the bush.
It sounds very much like end float in the rocker/s, but I donít know. Also maybe the rockers are worn on their spindles.
Where are the possible sources of such a rattle ?

Online Frenchfrog

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2021, 04:32:12 AM »
This is the one you have been chasing for a few years already isn't it ? Could well be the chain drive...when I installed the Moto Spezial belt drive conversion on mine ,the first thing that struck me me was how quiet the engine became .Do the gears and the cam thrust bearing and if the noise is still there the rocker arm spindles and shims...there's bound to be a bit of wear there but is it detrimental ?

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 05:25:26 AM »
This is the one you have been chasing for a few years already isn't it ? Could well be the chain drive...when I installed the Moto Spezial belt drive conversion on mine ,the first thing that struck me me was how quiet the engine became .Do the gears and the cam thrust bearing and if the noise is still there the rocker arm spindles and shims...there's bound to be a bit of wear there but is it detrimental ?
Iíve been back in and checked the camchain and itís perfect mate.
I reckon itíll be the rockers on the spindles. I may even go in and have a look at them, Iíd be up at Peteís to get Christopherís Sport this week.
Iíll talk to him about it then.

Online Zoom Zoom

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11406
  • Northeast Ohio
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 05:35:05 AM »
Do you have a mechanics stethoscope? (Not terribly expensive as I recall.) You may be able to further localize the noise using one of those. I recall someone chasing a rogue noise a while back. Someone suggested a worn wrist pin.

John Henry
A wide, unfettered road ahead,
and the flying motor singing.
Samuel C. Lancaster 1921

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 05:35:05 AM »

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 05:42:15 AM »
Do you have a mechanics stethoscope? (Not terribly expensive as I recall.) You may be able to further localize the noise using one of those. I recall someone chasing a rogue noise a while back. Someone suggested a worn wrist pin.

John Henry
Well, that would not be out of the question either.
I may need to do some checking it seems, but it does not seem to be at high enough frequency to be at each TDC.
Just a sporadic rattle, like a camchain and not always apparent.

Offline bad Chad

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 8755
  • Location: Central Il
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2021, 04:38:58 PM »
It's probably just a stretched drive chain hitting the chain guard.  Spray some WD 40 on the chain, turn the adjusting bolts back to pull the rear sprocket back and I'm sure it will go away.  Remember, floppy chains, like floppy tits are, at the end of the day, something to look forward too. 
2007 Breva 1100  Red Arrow (and faster than yours!)
2016 CSC 250TT Zongshen
2017 V9 Roamer

Online Ncdan

  • Global Moderator
  • Guzzi Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 4602
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2021, 05:51:26 PM »
Pete, you may be able to isolate the noise or narrow it down by taking a wooden spatula and placing the handle end in your ear, gently. You can touch the spoon edge to the different parts you are checking. For a more precise sound lie the soon cupped part flat on the area you wish to listen to. Itís actually works for me better than the mechanics stethoscope.

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2021, 06:15:28 PM »
Pete, you may be able to isolate the noise or narrow it down by taking a wooden spatula and placing the handle end in your ear, gently. You can touch the spoon edge to the different parts you are checking. For a more precise sound lie the soon cupped part flat on the area you wish to listen to. Itís actually works for me better than the mechanics stethoscope.
I will try that Dan.
I must say though, that last time I did that, I poked the end of the spoon in one ear and it came out the other..! :embarrassed:

Offline pete mcgee

  • Guzzi Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2021, 07:41:24 PM »
Pete,
What do the contact surfaces between the rocker and the valve stem look like? Mine were noisy at the last major rebuild  at186,000 km. Had the rockers rebuilt and they were quieter after that.
The cam thrust bearing generally I cant hear,  you notice wear in it by the amount of bronze you find in the sump when you drop it to change the filter (mk 3 lemon).
Better ear plugs or louder music may be the cure  :cool:
Pete (no not the Bungendore one)


Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people look intelligent until you hear them speak....

Online s1120

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2021, 07:09:24 AM »
Pete, you may be able to isolate the noise or narrow it down by taking a wooden spatula and placing the handle end in your ear, gently. You can touch the spoon edge to the different parts you are checking. For a more precise sound lie the soon cupped part flat on the area you wish to listen to. Itís actually works for me better than the mechanics stethoscope.

Ive always used a long screwdriver the same way. Works well.
Paul B

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2021, 07:17:00 AM »
Thanks all and sundry.
Iíll be up at Peteís soon to collect Christopherís 1200 Sport and will seek some guidance in addition to whatís been added here.
I cannot think of anything in the crankcase that would make a clacking such as this, so possibly wrist pin or overhead gear.

Offline v85lover

  • Sunday Rider
  • **
  • Posts: 54
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2021, 06:21:34 AM »
I cant wait to see that Norge click over 200k  :thumb:

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 07:08:27 AM »
I cant wait to see that Norge click over 200k  :thumb:
That was supposed to happen in Mandello 2021... :rolleyes:

Offline Guzzistaracing

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 598
  • Location: R�ldal, Norway
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2021, 06:53:14 PM »
How long has this been audible? If it has done 192,000 I would not worry to much! :popcorn:
Ex.85�suzuki katana
 85`Le Mans 1000
`51 Ariel KH500
`07 Griso 850, black
`71 Nuovo Falcone civile
`78 BMW R100RS
Current:
`98 Centauro

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2021, 08:52:45 PM »
How long has this been audible? If it has done 192,000 I would not worry to much! :popcorn:
Back at around 180,00 I first noticed something and did the camchain job.
Fair to say, that got rid of a lot of clatter, but this relatively minor issue remains.
Iím quietly confident that it will all stay inside the cases, until I pull the timing cover to install the gears. I will examine the rocker arm to spindle clearance as well and a set of oil pump races.

Offline Roebling3

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1316
  • Location: MA
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2021, 05:49:02 PM »
Does that engine have any aluminum gears on the oil pump, cams, et. al.? a la Daytona's/Centauro?
Hard to imagine with all the miles, by many owners.  R3~

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2021, 05:53:52 PM »
Does that engine have any aluminum gears on the oil pump, cams, et. al.? a la Daytona's/Centauro?
Hard to imagine with all the miles, by many owners.  R3~
No mate, not as far as I can tell.
I did not do the magnet test, but itís heavy and goes ď cling...!Ē When you tap it with a spanner (wrench).
Not ďcloock..Ē lick aluminium would.

Offline lucky phil

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1408
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2021, 05:02:05 PM »
At that sort of mileage the rocker arms where the contact the valve stems will be very worn which leads to inaccurate valve clearance adjustments. I replaced my rocker arms at 40,000klms because of this. Wasn't like they wouldn't have gone further but I'm fussy like that.



Ciao   
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 05:06:06 PM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2021, 05:35:38 PM »
At that sort of mileage the rocker arms where the contact the valve stems will be very worn which leads to inaccurate valve clearance adjustments. I replaced my rocker arms at 40,000klms because of this. Wasn't like they wouldn't have gone further but I'm fussy like that.



Ciao
That may be close to whatís happening Phil.
I check and adjust the clearances every 20,000 and they have not needed touching for the last few trips in.
However, I will certainly go in again and check the rocker/spindle clearance..(wear).
Are they an expensive item as a pair ?

Offline lucky phil

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1408
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2021, 06:46:41 PM »
That may be close to whatís happening Phil.
I check and adjust the clearances every 20,000 and they have not needed touching for the last few trips in.
However, I will certainly go in again and check the rocker/spindle clearance..(wear).
Are they an expensive item as a pair ?

Problem is as you can see the rockers don't wear across the whole face so when you insert the feeler you tend to get a false reading of the gap because of the unworn section so in reality the clearances are too wide. If you're aware of the issue you can set the clearances on the worn section so they are correct.
Not sure on the costs, I bought a bit of a job lot of new parts off ebay years ago and used the rockers on my engine and gave the rest to Pete Roper. It may be cheaper to get the originals reground and nitrided or better still.
http://www.baisley.com/rocker_product.htm
They do Guzzi rockers. I could give you my old ones to get done if your interested.
Ciao 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 06:54:50 PM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2021, 12:54:20 AM »
 :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:  :embarrassed:
Thereís not much to say..
It was the left hand header pipe clattering against the centrestand mounting bracket.
 :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
But thank you to everyone who mistakenly thought I knew what I was talking about and took my predicament seriously.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 01:06:20 AM by Huzo »

Online s1120

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1659
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2021, 05:03:44 AM »
Cant say I havent been there....  I spent more then a few hours chasing a running problem only to find out that the gas light doesnt work, and I had no fuel in it..  Been there, done that, got the TShirt
Paul B

Online Huzo

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9711
  • Location: Creswick Australia
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2021, 05:36:17 AM »
Cant say I havent been there....  I spent more then a few hours chasing a running problem only to find out that the gas light doesnt work, and I had no fuel in it..  Been there, done that, got the TShirt
Yep.
Was talking to Pete Roper this morning and he said it was more than likely something rattling against the bodywork...
Beginnerís luck.. :rolleyes:

Online John A

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 3602
  • No way to slow down...
  • Location: Hager city ,western WI
Re: 2VPC Norge rattle @ 192,000
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2021, 11:24:55 AM »
Mine wonít rev to 192,000 :evil:
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here
 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler with donation credit
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here