Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on September 09, 2015, 02:12:16 AM
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Got round to rollerising Mark's bike yesterday.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/711/21272766251_8fe96f0db6_z.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5675/21077818499_9fdaa5d155_z.jpg)
30,000 ish km. not good. No real signs but Mark not only updates his maps but was also running his closed loop interpretive system which would of masked the wear.
Unfortunately this tends to make me believe that after what I've seen and researched in the last year all flat tappet motors are probably compromised. Certainly climate and running conditions along with poor service are major contributors but it looks like the problem is universal.
OK, what to do? Well, to pull the camboxes and inspect takes about two hours. That will cost you whatever your shop's hourly rate is. If the tappets are found to be compromised then a warranty claim can be put in train. I would certainly recommend that anybody with a flat tappet bike that is still within the two year warranty period pay for the inspection as it will then be fully covered if there is found to be anything wrong. Outside of that period? Well, it's up to you but if you do wait until something happens and you don't catch it in time you may well be up for a lot more than the labour for a kit install. I'd still pay for the inspection.
Apart from C and D kit bikes which will need the heads off to shim the valve springs the actual install shouldn't cost a lot. Obviously it will depend on what model, a Norge for instance will cost more than a Griso A and B kit bikes will be comparatively inexpensive if caught early. Rollerising Mark's G8 took about three hours, including remapping and TB balancing. A lot cheaper than waiting for frag to be fed through the whole engine.
Pete
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Pete,
Any damage to the cams or just the followers in the photo?
I take it this is a continuation/extension to the last post on this.
Any mayo in the oil/ sump on this one?
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Cams showing heat damage on the nose circle. Mayo in evidence in covers. S'bin a cold winter, even in Wagga! :laugh:
Pete
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Cams showing heat damage on the nose circle. Mayo in evidence in covers. S'bin a cold winter, even in Wagga! :laugh:
Pete
There was not a spot of Mayo under my valve covers, and there never has been. And 90% of my mileage are longer runs in reasonably warm and dry weather. With fresh 10w60 oil. And it still happened to me.
I'm no metallurgy expert, and I know you've seen a lot more of these failures than I have Pete, but to my simple mind it looks like either lubrication (missing ZDDP?? - although the AGIP 10-60 is pretty reasonable in that regard), too much pressure or lack of clearances. Maybe a too radical ramp up profile for a flat tappet? All I know for sure is that the damp environment / lack of maintenance does not apply in my situation.
Are the tappets with the higher wear inlet or exhaust?
John
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On Mark's bike and all, as far as I can remember, others I've done it was the exhausts rather than the inlets that let go first. As far as additives are concerned ZDDP may in fact be counter productive with DLC.
Yup, it's a PITA but that's the thing about using the scientific method of analysis, you always have to strive to prove yourself wrong and allow your findings to be peer reviewed.
Pete
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Cams:
Left
(http://www.griso.org/leftcam.jpg)
Right
(http://www.griso.org/rightcam.jpg)
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Cams showing heat damage on the nose circle. Mayo in evidence in covers. S'bin a cold winter, even in Wagga! :laugh:
Pete
I never had a "warm" winter in Wagga.
What is the response from the factory regarding the wear issue, fit rollers or silence?
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Cams:
Left
(http://www.griso.org/leftcam.jpg)
Right
(http://www.griso.org/rightcam.jpg)
I always feel the need to stress my lack of qualifications in regard to this kind of stuff :grin:, but what strikes me as interesting is the second scuff mark. It looks almost like the tappet lost contact on a small part of the lobe before impacting again. Is the valve ramp up to steep for a flat tappet set up?? Again, just speculating.
"Looks like it's been chewed up and spat out.
Perhaps it was a result of anxiety?"
:wink:
John
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What a PITA. When did it become so difficult to build a working cam and tappets? It's not like the engine runs at 15k rpm. :undecided:
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What a PITA. When did it become so difficult to build a working cam and tappets? It's not like the engine runs at 15k rpm. :undecided:
If anyone wants, I'll loan you my grenade valve caps..I (hopefully) don't need them any more on the Lario. <running and ducking>
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg.html)
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Got round to rollerising Mark's bike yesterday.
OK, what to do? Well, to pull the camboxes and inspect takes about two hours. That will cost you whatever your shop's hourly rate is. If the tappets are found to be compromised then a warranty claim can be put in train. I would certainly recommend that anybody with a flat tappet bike that is still within the two year warranty period pay for the inspection as it will then be fully covered if there is found to be anything wrong. Outside of that period? Well, it's up to you but if you do wait until something happens and you don't catch it in time you may well be up for a lot more than the labour for a kit install. I'd still pay for the inspection.
Pete
And if the inspection shows that the tappets and cam are NOT grenaded yet?
You're still Donald Ducked, because now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi .... After all this, you can never trust that your bike will make a trip without coming apart.
All this wonderful modern mo' bettah high tech ECU and Adjustable Maps and Lambda Sensors and Fuel Injection and Eight Valves and 100+ horsepower and all this "These bikes are SO much better than the antique stone age roundfins" and "Just ride them and don't f****ng worry so much" .... all that modern crap is useless if the cams won't bump the valves open.... it's like building better deck chairs on the Titanic because the parts that Triumph figured out how to make right in 1937 don't work any more ....
Screw it, I'll shut up now. I gave "I'm not the problem any more" a good try.
Lannis
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****
OK, what to do? Well, to pull the camboxes and inspect takes about two hours. That will cost you whatever your shop's hourly rate is. If the tappets are found to be compromised then a warranty claim can be put in train. I would certainly recommend that anybody with a flat tappet bike that is still within the two year warranty period pay for the inspection as it will then be fully covered if there is found to be anything wrong. Outside of that period? Well, it's up to you but if you do wait until something happens and you don't catch it in time you may well be up for a lot more than the labour for a kit install. I'd still pay for the inspection.
Apart from C and D kit bikes which will need the heads off to shim the valve springs the actual install shouldn't cost a lot. Obviously it will depend on what model, a Norge for instance will cost more than a Griso A and B kit bikes will be comparatively inexpensive if caught early. Rollerising Mark's G8 took about three hours, including remapping and TB balancing. A lot cheaper than waiting for frag to be fed through the whole engine.
Pete
And if the inspection shows that the tappets and cam are NOT grenaded yet?
You're still Donald Ducked, because now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi ....
****
Screw it, I'll shut up now. I gave "I'm not the problem any more" a good try.
Lannis
OK, I am no doubt missing something, but why do you read what Pete posted as a preventive measure as meaning "now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi ...."
Bill (who also has a hangover from Mandello mead)
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OK, I am no doubt missing something, but why do you read what Pete posted as a preventive measure as meaning "now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi ...."
Bill (who also has a hangover from Mandello mead)
Well, I said I'd hush but you're right, if I wasn't clear I should explain myself.
I'm not ragging on Pete specifically, I'm ragging on Guzzi for paying too much attention to designing super-zoot extraneous BS to "keep up with the Joneses" and forgetting how motorcycles work.
Pete said "Take your camboxes apart and see what's in there. If the tappets are buggered then you can start the warranty process"
That's all well and good, but it leaves us hanging halfway. What if the tappets AREN'T buggered? That's WORSE, because you still have to replace them but there's no warranty process involved, it's all on the poor trusting owner.
The whole purpose of Pete's post was to provide data to show that (probably) nobody's 8-valve is going to get out of this alive; if it's buggered up you pay to install and Guzzi pays for the parts. If it's NOT buggered up, you pay to install AND you pay for the parts. If I'd bought a Ural instead of a Stelvio I'd have had the same trouble, but would have paid $6,000 less for the bike, money that I could use to build the bike properly ....
I was riding my BSA yesterday. I have absolutely no fear that it's going to eat its tappets .....
Now, really, I've beotched enough on 4 threads on this subject. I'll move on. But thanks for the sanity check, sometimes I need them when it comes to bikes .... :thumb:
Lannis
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I'm still wondering why this tappet problem seems to only happen on Stelvios. It's the same 8V engine that is used in the Norge and Griso...apart from the huge oil cooler on the NTX. Can anyone point out any other differences? Scratching my head on this one.
Peter Y.
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I'm still wondering why this tappet problem seems to only happen on Stelvios. It's the same 8V engine that is used in the Norge and Griso...apart from the huge oil cooler on the NTX. Can anyone point out any other differences? Scratching my head on this one.
Peter Y.
It's happening on all the 8V flat tappet engines. I've just been particularly vocal about it because my Stelvio is in the affected population .... so it may seem like they're the only ones.
I think most of the pictorial examples have been Grisos ....
I keep saying I'll move on. Must ... get ... a .... grip ....
Lannis
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A buddy I ride with toasted his abs on his bmw gs. They wanted 3400 us dollars to fix it. So pick your poison. He ditched the gs for a kawi concourse and I don't blame him. But ditch a Griso because of a cam tappet swap? I don't think so ,especially when it's a relatively easy job. Anyone remotely handy with simple tools and a little research can do it, I'm living proof. Hat's off to Vasco for telling us like it is, If Mg only had more dealers like him. I know of few motor cycles that will withstand the type of punishment I daily place on my Griso, without some consequences. Part of the game if you ask me.
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Ok, for those of us still riding around on 40 year old relics, are there 8V bikes that don't have flat tappets? If so what years? I would like to get a newer Guzzi but would like to know which ones to avoid.
Pete
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Ok, for those of us still riding around on 40 year old relics, are there 8V bikes that don't have flat tappets? If so what years? I would like to get a newer Guzzi but would like to know which ones to avoid.
Pete
Actually this is a good question.
I've been only half paying attention to these developments because I assumed they don't effect me.
Are we right that we're only talking about 8V Big Block CARCS that didn't come with rollers?
And what does come with rollers now? Most/all of the CARCS now? And the Cali?
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There's no guaranty the rollers will last either, is there? This is what, the third version of the fix? Also, when people change their maps due to poor running one of the "improvements" noted is how much cooler the motor runs...hmmm..
Really happy to have the old fashion BB2V,
Peter
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Mid 2012 all production swapped to roller top end. That is over three years ago and I haven't heard of a roller failure yet. That won't of course stop people wishing ill on anything built after 1980.
It would be a lot easier for me and anybody else who actually cares about Guzzi to just shut up and say nothing. I knew when I said what I did that I'd be able to hear the wailing and rending of garments from some people in the northern hemisphere from here. What both amuses me and pisses me off is that while this is by no means a minor issue it is no different to ones affecting many other manufacturers, it's just that there seems to be a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic. Honda had shocking problems with cams for over a decade. Honda are still going strong. That's just one very closely paralleled example.
At the end of the day I just want people aware of a potential problem. I care not a jot what people say or do about it. I personally think the 8V is a fantastic engine and while this problem is a pisser and I don't think the company management is addressing the problem in a particularly ethical way it's certainly not going to put me off riding and owning the most enjoyable motorcycle I've ever had the good fortune to fling a leg over. You want to shoot the messenger? Go ahead. Strikes me a particularly foolish though.
Pete
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So CARC 8V motors through about 2012 (before the addition of rollers).
Noted. Thanks.
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Mid 2012 all production swapped to roller top end. That is over three years ago and I haven't heard of a roller failure yet. That won't of course stop people wishing ill on anything built after 1980.
It would be a lot easier for me and anybody else who actually cares about Guzzi to just shut up and say nothing. I knew when I said what I did that I'd be able to hear the wailing and rending of garments from some people in the northern hemisphere from here. What both amuses me and pisses me off is that while this is by no means a minor issue it is no different to ones affecting many other manufacturers, it's just that there seems to be a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic. Honda had shocking problems with cams for over a decade. Honda are still going strong. That's just one very closely paralleled example.
At the end of the day I just want people aware of a potential problem. I care not a jot what people say or do about it. I personally think the 8V is a fantastic engine and while this problem is a pisser and I don't think the company management is addressing the problem in a particularly ethical way it's certainly not going to put me off riding and owning the most enjoyable motorcycle I've ever had the good fortune to fling a leg over. You want to shoot the messenger? Go ahead. Strikes me a particularly foolish though.
Pete
Thanks, Pete.
I appreciate your counsel in this as in so much else in Guzzidom.
To add a bit of related levity to all of this, I was reminded -- when i read your "a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic" -- of an event yesterday.
So, there I wuz. Pitching to grandboys Ben (near 7) and Kiefer (4). Ben is a gifted player and few would guess his age from the way he swings a bat, fields grounders, and pitches. Pretty amazing, actually.
Anyway, we were both humoring Kiefer, but when he brazenly stole third, I felt obliged to teach him a lesson. That led to me taking a nasty tumble, hitting hard enough to lie there a moment. Ben walks up and asks, "Are you faking?" "No," I replied; "Just old." Ben added, "And fat." Out of the mouths of babes. :laugh:
But, tho a member of the general Guzzi (or mebbe just wildguzzi) demographic, suspect most of us here are very grateful for your expertise. And, even more, that you share it as you do.
Thanks.
Bill
(Who nonetheless will still mutter about mendacious Mandellans while spurring his Griso (after it gets rollerized) past his competence. :wink:)
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it's like building better deck chairs on the Titanic because the parts that Triumph figured out how to make right in 1937 don't work any more ....
Triumph made deck chairs...?
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Come on pete, two years ago there was no problem because bikes you had serviced didn't have a problem, and now Beetle has it, you tell all bikes are going to fail.
I thought along time ago that most will fail. The same as that not all v11 scura clutches will explode, but a most will
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My mid year 2012 Stelvio NTX now has 40K on the clock. It is getting ready to puke another clutch and now I read this. I am sure that if I have flat tappets I am pretty much screwed. I have come to the conclusion that owning a bike with character pretty much means you have got to work on the SOB all the time. I am ready for the just ride the bike experience..... and then change oil and tires....... and ride it some more.
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My mid year 2012 Stelvio NTX now has 40K on the clock. It is getting ready to puke another clutch and now I read this. I am sure that if I have flat tappets I am pretty much screwed. I have come to the conclusion that owning a bike with character pretty much means you have got to work on the SOB all the time. I am ready for the just ride the bike experience..... and then change oil and tires....... and ride it some more.
Some of us obviously just have too much of the "Northern Hemisphere Needy Whiner" in us to appreciate the overall New Moto Guzzi Riding Experience. Best to just suck it up and keep on shucking out the spare change ... :angry:
Lannis
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While I and the two Mark's were loitering about rollerising Mark B's bike and Mark B was editing the Rollerised Mistral Lo-Pipe map on Mark S's bike, (Which is slowly easing away from Turd-dom.) we paused periodically to peer at and discuss his, and other, broken bits, (I now have quite a selection!).
Our guess, and it is just that, a guess, albeit an informed one, is that almost all flat tappet bikes over a few thousand Kms will exhibit identifiable wear. Certainly if you look at the pictures of many of the failed tappets it would seem that there is visible wear to the DLC, enough to affect the cam and the engine's breathing but it seems that the wear is not a devastating disaster until it reaches a critical 'Tipping point' after which it all goes to hell in a handbasket really quickly, (See Wayne's tappets for an example of some that have passed that point.)
This is the reason I suggest taking it to a shop before the failure becomes manifestly evident because I think there will be every chance that, like my bike and Mark B's the wear will be clearly evident but it won't of had a chance to cause serious damage.
As I said, pulling a cambox is no big deal. You can pull the left one without even taking the tank off on Griso's and Stelvios. (The right does require the tank to come off to access the tensioner reservoir plug.) I can have both camboxes off, inspected and back on if everything is OK in a couple of hours. There are a great many modern motorcycles where you can spend almost that long just getting to the valve covers! To me, if I wasn't doing the work myself, it would be a no-brainer to pay the couple of hours labour but I suppose having a little tantrum is so much more satisfying.
Just sayin'
Pete
PS. Paul, all I can do is report my own observations and the data I have collected. As I pointed out the whole point of using the scientific method of analysis is to constantly review ones findings and challenge them. Up until a little over a year ago I had no evidence to support the assertion that all 8V tappets were failure prone. Given the level of shrieking hysteria exhibited regularly by a lot of people when anything happens to their vehicles if I was to pay much attention to the vast majority of what people claim I'd be travelling everywhere in a horse and cart! :grin: Edit: two years ago I'd not had a single failure through my shop. This year I've had nine. I'm also very conversant with how poor a lot of servicing is, how cavalier some shops are about their approach to factory recommendations WRT both service and products used in servicing. All I can do is observe, record and report. Any recommendations I come up with are going to be by their very nature subjective.
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Mid 2012 all production swapped to roller top end. That is over three years ago and I haven't heard of a roller failure yet. That won't of course stop people wishing ill on anything built after 1980.
It would be a lot easier for me and anybody else who actually cares about Guzzi to just shut up and say nothing. I knew when I said what I did that I'd be able to hear the wailing and rending of garments from some people in the northern hemisphere from here. What both amuses me and pisses me off is that while this is by no means a minor issue it is no different to ones affecting many other manufacturers, it's just that there seems to be a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic. Honda had shocking problems with cams for over a decade. Honda are still going strong. That's just one very closely paralleled example.
At the end of the day I just want people aware of a potential problem. I care not a jot what people say or do about it. I personally think the 8V is a fantastic engine and while this problem is a pisser and I don't think the company management is addressing the problem in a particularly ethical way it's certainly not going to put me off riding and owning the most enjoyable motorcycle I've ever had the good fortune to fling a leg over. You want to shoot the messenger? Go ahead. Strikes me a particularly foolish though.
Pete
Pete,
Really, don't flatter yourself thinking I was asking you a question as I would have addressed you personally like "hey Vasco" or similar if I was. Also' your responses to my inquiries have been somewhat less than civil in the past so I tried not to provoke you with a direct query. I see I failed. I acknowledge your knowledge of Guzzi but was throwing this out there to the general population and not specifically to you. You know, looking for other opinions, even yours. I've owned Guzzis for many years, and have always done my own work, my first an Ambassador in 1975. I'll not let anyone intimidate me from crowing out loud about my love of the brand. May I suggest you just hit the ignore button and be done with me?
Best,
Peter
PS
Scientific method relies on peer review of ones findings.
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Every time I have seen reports of flat tappet failures on a particular brand of car, it has always been a matter of time before it has become a problem for ALL of them. VW Audi has had issues, the most recent being failure of the fuel pump cam in earlier 2.0 Turbos. One doesn't need to be hysterical to see that some work and expense will be a part of the ownership experience for certain vehicles.
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Pete,
Really, don't flatter yourself thinking I was asking you a question as I would have addressed you personally like "hey Vasco" or similar if I was. Also' your responses to my inquiries have been somewhat less than civil in the past so I tried not to provoke you with a direct query. I see I failed. I acknowledge your knowledge of Guzzi but was throwing this out there to the general population and not specifically to you. You know, looking for other opinions, even yours. I've owned Guzzis for many years, and have always done my own work, my first an Ambassador in 1975. I'll not let anyone intimidate me from crowing out loud about my love of the brand. May I suggest you just hit the ignore button and be done with me?
Best,
Peter
PS
Scientific method relies on peer review of ones findings.
Sorry, I have no idea what you're going on about. I can't remember ever saying anything to you or about anything you've written.
As for peer review? Exactly! Which is why I'm more than happy for people to challenge my assertions but criticism has to be backed up by data and facts rather than nebulous ideas.
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I'm puzzled why so many posts appear to personalize or be taken personally. It's perfectly understandable that people affected by (or at some unknown future risk of) such problems are frustrated, upset and angry, but so far I haven't seen a member of the Piaggio design team or accounting team show up in the threads on this and related subjects. If there were, perhaps the venting could be directed to them.
Based on what I've read, if I had a flat tappet 8V, I would probably ride it till it had between 8-10,000 on it. From all the evidence, that should be far enough that wear could definitely be seen, but unlikely to be so far as to cause failure and subsequent additional damage. I would plan on paying for an oil analysis if mayo is not already clearly evident. I would work with my dealer before the tear-down to set expectations and define clearly (even if they already should know) what needs to be examined and what previous experience has shown. I might try to negotiate a strategy with the dealer to pay a certain amount (perhaps his cost) for work and parts if Piaggio balks at full warranty coverage - and that might get them on my side as the negotiation with the mother corp plays out.
A lot of this is easy for me to say since I have a 2V bike - but it's the same approach that got me a complete transmission rebuild when the throw-out bearing in my Subaru unexpectedly and spectacularly failed, damaging the case and many of the parts it contained. That happened about 3 months after the warranty ended, but the company ended up covering it.
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I'm puzzled why so many posts appear to personalize or be taken personally. It's perfectly understandable that people affected by (or at some unknown future risk of) such problems are frustrated, upset and angry, but so far I haven't seen a member of the Piaggio design team or accounting team show up in the threads on this and related subjects. If there were, perhaps the venting could be directed to them.
Any venting I've done about flat tappets is and has been directed at whoever at Moto Guzzi forgot how to build a valve train while they were inventing an engine computer. That's all.
Now, if someone says, on the subject of early, expensive engine failures, "You should expect that sort of thing, it's part of the game of owning a modern touring motorcycle, and if you can't handle it you should quit whining and get out of the game", I may offer a counter opinion to THAT sentiment, since that is NOT a technical matter of fact being reported by an engine expert (which I appreciate), but is a totally emotional opinion being offered by someone who has imbibed more Moto Guzzi Brand Kool Aid than I have. And MY opinion on THAT subject (of owner suitability) is just as good and just as valid as anyone's .....
Lannis
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It wouldn't be right if there wasn't a self grenading couple of model years to avoid. I suppose we've found the chrome bores of the 2010's
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Oh well, I had hoped I would have been lucky and avoided having to rollerise my 2009 Griso 8V, now only 11,000 km.
Thanks for the warning Pete, I will have this looked into this winter or next.
Might not be expertise for sorting out and rollerising around here, so I suppose I might have to take the bike to Germany.
I guess a discussion with the Norwegian importer would be in order, although I'm not optimistic about getting any sorts of financial support from Guzzi.
Meanwhile I'm enjoying the old big block Guzzi. This season she's actually got lots more km than the Griso!
(Not that I think there is any need for sparing the Griso at this stage)
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Any venting I've done about flat tappets is and has been directed at whoever at Moto Guzzi forgot how to build a valve train while they were inventing an engine computer. That's all.
Now, if someone says, on the subject of early, expensive engine failures, "You should expect that sort of thing, it's part of the game of owning a modern touring motorcycle, and if you can't handle it you should quit whining and get out of the game", I may offer a counter opinion to THAT sentiment, since that is NOT a technical matter of fact being reported by an engine expert (which I appreciate), but is a totally emotional opinion being offered by someone who has imbibed more Moto Guzzi Brand Kool Aid than I have. And MY opinion on THAT subject (of owner suitability) is just as good and just as valid as anyone's .....
Lannis
I'm not, and never have said that Lannis. In fact if you care to read my earlier comments in the rollerisation thread I actually said that I thought the way the problem was being handled sucked big-time. The thing is though that no amount of complaining is going to change the way the issue is going to be tackled by Piaggio and the answer seems to be to attack the messenger when all he is trying to do is offer what he believes is the best way to go about getting the best outcome possible under those circumstances.
If people don't like the 8V for whatever reason, that's fine but its reliability issues seem to of been addressed and to some of us at least it is an addictive and joyous device that although none of us are happy about being made the 'Bunny' we're willing to grit our teeth and get on with it to continue to enjoy what it offers.
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I'm not, and never have said that Lannis. In fact if you care to read my earlier comments in the rollerisation thread I actually said that I thought the way the problem was being handled sucked big-time. The thing is though that no amount of complaining is going to change the way the issue is going to be tackled by Piaggio and the answer seems to be to attack the messenger when all he is trying to do is offer what he believes is the best way to go about getting the best outcome possible under those circumstances.
If people don't like the 8V for whatever reason, that's fine but its reliability issues seem to of been addressed and to some of us at least it is an addictive and joyous device that although none of us are happy about being made the 'Bunny' we're willing to grit our teeth and get on with it to continue to enjoy what it offers.
All true. Next valve clearance check, 40,500 miles .....
Lannis
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As ITsec has said above regarding the problem that is how, with hindsight, I would of handled the issue. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The strange thing is that there was that run of early 2V Norges with the duff oil pump. Now when they went west it was enough to kill the whole engine pretty much instantly but I can't remember anybody baying for blood or claiming the engine was a POS?
Then there is the issue with pre gen-2 smallblock 750's, (Brevas, Classics etc.) suddenly vanishing all their engine oil into some sort of fifth dimension and running their big ends and mains! Nobody cries foul on the whole engine for that or condemns smallblocks out of hand.
It just seems that for some hating on the 8V is done more out of blind prejudice and a dislike of change than any problems it may have, real or perceived.
Pete
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Some of us obviously just have too much of the "Northern Hemisphere Needy Whiner" in us to appreciate the overall New Moto Guzzi Riding Experience. Best to just suck it up and keep on shucking out the spare change ... :angry:
Lannis
You can suck it up and keep shucking out the spare change, me, not so much. I am trading her in on a more proven design.
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Just to double check - is it an reasonable to say that 8V motors with rollers should be fine. I know there is no guarantee but the roller setup, either form the factory or retro-fit, is the 'best fix' so far and hopefully the cure.
Is this correct or am I missing something?
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As I've pointed out numerous times the roller system has been used since the first Cali 14's and on all the 1200's since mid 2012. I haven't heard of a failure yet.
Pete
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Pete,
Are you sure that's not revisionist history regarding the early CARC pump failures, or the mysterious smallblock grenades?
I seem to recall weeping and gnashing of teeth then too.
Of course in those cases it was a mysterious/unexplainable couple of cases.
This seems to me a case now of not if but when, and then changes the simile.
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Come on pete, two years ago there was no problem because bikes you had serviced didn't have a problem, and now Beetle has it, you tell all bikes are going to fail.
To be fair Paul, Pete knows the history of my bike. He knows I don't commute on it and when I do ride it, I ride it hard and get the engine nice and hot. The early evidence (whether it be anecdotal or not) seemed to indicate that cold climate bikes used for commuting were that likeliest to have a failure. If any 8V was unlikely to fail, mine was it.
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And I still maintain that climate, use and servicing will play a major role in the longevity of the DLC coating. If, as seems inevitable (and I am, as I keep repeating, willing to accept I was wrong.) failure occurs it should be remembered that the location, frequency and nature of the failures is something that I have been following and documented ever since the 8V was launched. Why? Because it really interested me and it still does. Those three factors are the overriding common denominators in the systematic failure of the tappets and the evidence remains strong that my causal analysis was right, just not completely right.
Pete
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How do you know when a bike was built,i has a 13 Stelvio NTX but don't see a build date on the frame
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I guess this kind of sucks, but in the big scope of things I just get it fixed and keep on trucking. A few hours of labor really won't kill me. Heck, I lost $1000 when I hit a deer on my Griso, and compounded it by buying a BMW RNineT and selling it for $4000 less than I owed 8 months later cause I didn't like it.
Well, I like the Stelvio. It is worth the expense, and still much cheaper than dumping it and buying a new bike with different problems.
My biggest concern is a mechanic who knows what to look for.
Hey Pete, ever been to Spokane in the Winter?
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In Oz it's on the compliance plate I believe. Although that may be more related to despatch from factory.
If you want to know if your bike is roller or flat as I keep suggesting just lift a rocker cover and look.
Pete
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It wouldn't be right if there wasn't a self grenading couple of model years to avoid. I suppose we've found the chrome bores 8 valves of the 2010's'80's
fixed it for you.
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We can likely expect to see a lot of 8Vs up for sale in the future as this info makes the rounds. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to be limited to flat tappet bikes and maybe evidenced by support vans following 8V riders on trips longer than the local 7-11.
Too bad it seems that MG can't see what is sure to happen next but then clowns rarely look in mirrors and laugh. MG should probably be happy it doesn't sell as many as some other brands but then if you treat customers like they are 5th rate, that probably has something to do with sales being on the same scale. Rather shameful.
Now, what happens next does matter. Sure, owners can suck it up and compare this to something that happened on a BMW.
Yeah, it might take longer to get to the valves on suzukayamda but the owners aren't buying self destructing engines anymore, that was 1980s folks, this is long after that. They also don't check valves every time they take a long weekend ride either.
If all this continues to pan out, MG will be forced to do something and the sucking sound won't be coming from the wallets of owners, at least not in the USA.
This is brand damaging stuff. There are only so many people who want to suck it up, especially henceforth since the info is out and MG really can't claim ignorance of the matter.
Kudos to Pete for offering info on his experiences and proposed remedies. This info will help everyone who either has an 8V or contemplates owning one. Some will pay for the inspection but reality says many will not and simply get something else. Since this isn't the valves on the wheels with the problem, I'd be more than mildly surprised if sales weren't affected shortly.
While engines after a certain date haven't yet shown evidence of the problem, "yet" becomes a pretty important qualifier, usually followed by suck it up. It's one thing to be the sucker, quite another to be both sucker and suckee. This might become an expensive lesson for MG as any claims they didn't know would probably fall on deaf ears, just a matter of time now.
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Is the roller kit no longer screw and locknut adjustable? What's the post about shims for the roller? :rolleyes:
And no my bike isn't for sale. Too happy with it :bike-037:
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John, if you go and look at the rollerisation thread it's explained but the shims are added under the valve springs of the inlet valves on early motors to increase the seating poundage slightly to deter valve float.
As for new sales being affected? Why? The roller system has been in operation for three/four years now with no related problems. I can understand people being unhappy who own flat tappet bikes, especially those built after the middle of 2010 but to simply continue to throw the baby out with the bath water is plain stupid, the roller system works, there have to be at least a handful of fairly high mileage ones out there by now.
Pete
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Triumph made deck chairs...?
Not the chairs, just the reclining mechanisms. Finally got the design right so they didn't break when passengers tilted back to take a nap.
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In the 1980s Mercedes Benz replace thousands of camshafts on all their OHC motors, gas and diesel. About the same time GM was pulling cams with round lobes out of heir V8s. Harley had issues, Honda too, as mentioned. It could be poor maintenance, improper hardening, or an engineering issue. Pete is giving fair warning and priceless information. All cams may not fail for reasons that can't be explained. Have your bike inspected, if you don't have an issue, try higher quality oil and be diligent with your oil change intervals. Before you bad mouth Guzzi for inferior machines remember, BMW motorcycles have the highest number of warranty claims here in the US.
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I see the confusion in the last paragraph of my previous post, thank you phone.
My meaning was that in the USA, being host to a litigious population, no doubt, as this makes the rounds, someone will do more than pay for an inspection, they will seek recovery of the monies spent and bit stop there.
As for sales of new, while it is possible to put out these types of problems, they have a way of carrying over. The flat tappet issue while perhaps not new, has taken a bit of time to manifest itself to the degree now know. It happens quite often in other manufacturing usually followed by the discontinuation of a model type. American car makes went through it and still go down that road. I am not saying that MG would discontinue anything but I have little doubt someone right now is deciding that no one should have to pay for an inspection or any parts or labor to fix the problem.
That it might take years for the problem to surface means little because how many people are going to buy a used flat tappet bike unless it has been fixed and who out there is really going to do it?
When it becomes easier to buy something else other than something with a known problem, sales suffer. BMW did recognize that and their response to the suspension issue is a good example of why people still buy them in large numbers. MG doesn't sell like BMW but there is a reason for that too.
It is one thing to say a problem was fixed, quite another to say we fixed it and also took care of our customers. Two very different things. Anyone can fix a problem on the customers dime.
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I guess this kind of sucks, but in the big scope of things I just get it fixed and keep on trucking. A few hours of labor really won't kill me. Heck, I lost $1000 when I hit a deer on my Griso, and compounded it by buying a BMW RNineT and selling it for $4000 less than I owed 8 months later cause I didn't like it.
Well, I like the Stelvio. It is worth the expense, and still much cheaper than dumping it and buying a new bike with different problems.
My biggest concern is a mechanic who knows what to look for.
Good points about the "another bike" solution (depreciation, possible problems, etc) probably being more expensive in dollars than just fixing the Stelvio. It must be a matter of principle, then .... :blank:
Lannis
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Before you bad mouth Guzzi for inferior machines remember, BMW motorcycles have the highest number of warranty claims here in the US.
So on the way to work yesterday, I was sitting at a long red light, thinking about my failed valve tappets on my Stelvio. I started to think about switching to BMW, or Honda, or later as I road past Frazier's Harley Davidson, maybe.......
But then I realized that HD does not have a model that I want. BWM does NOT have a good record of customer support, and neither does Honda. The grass is NOT green over there.
So, I continued to enjoy the nice ride in to work on my EV. I really like the EV.
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Good points about the "another bike" solution (depreciation, possible problems, etc) probably being more expensive in dollars than just fixing the Stelvio. It must be a matter of principle, then .... :blank:
Lannis
And I have no problem with that at all.
Before everyone starts screaming at their dealers though remember that Warranty pays nothing and you only get reimbursed a fraction of the time and effort that goes into the work. In Oz you don't get paid at all. All you get is a credit against your parts account.
Pete
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Yeah. Wow! Perhaps you'll understand why people get really short shrift if they come into my shop yelling and poking me in the chest, (Yes, that has happened!) and telling me I have to fix their horrible broken shitter for nothing and 'Sort it out with the importer'. The ones that do that are invariably the ones that bought the bike elsewhere because it was 'Cheaper' than I could provide it but expect me to take it up the arse and do all the work, usually caused by the incompetence of the 'Box Shop' *Mechanics* or their own fiddling, when it all falls in a screaming heap.
Treat me right and I'll try and move heaven and earth to get a good outcome. Give me crap and oddly enough you'll find me *Busy* until long after hell has frozen over!
Pete
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18 months ago my local long established Guzzi dealer here in the U.K. told me that the 8v flat tappet motor was seriously flawed and he was 'fiddling' warranty claims so that even healthy motors were getting rollerised. He was doing the work for a nominal fee to keep his customers from leaving the brand.
At the time I was thinking of buying a new old stock 1200 Sport and part of the deal was that I rode it round the block and the warranty claim was put in for the rollers. I was very tempted but just couldn't get my head around the concept of repairing a brand new bike so left the deal on the table.
I have no problems with the repair to the flat tappet motors which I'm sure is now sorted but the way Piaggio handled it was lamentable. Unlike Honda who had plenty of other engines on the market when they had cam problems the Guzzi 8v motor was a big part of the model range and after the 1200 2v motors owners moved on to 8v's thinking Guzzi was on the way back to main stream popularity. The whole 8v debacle has done great damage to the brands reputation here in the U.K. I hope the cost saving mean spirited response was worth it for the company but it's reputation might take a while to recover.
Let's face it Guzzi knew full well there was a problem from the earliest failures. If they didn't their engineering expertise must be seriously questioned. They left owners with bikes that would inevitably fail at some stage and took the head in the sand approach. They are not the only ones playing this game but it still stinks.
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On the Guzzi, exactly what parts are changed and what would be the total cost if the bike owner paid out of pocket?
In the car world flat tappet refers to older push rod engines. The tappets or lifters as we call them are not flat but have a very slightly domed surface.In addition the cam lobes have a slight taper and the lifter center line is offset a touch to the side from the cam lobe. This engineering creates a spin to the lifter and push rod to even out wear...
As Lannis mentioned the old British twins don't normally have tappet problems. The general design is a tappet with a radius face that is not free to rotate. And on the BSA the cam is well lubricated by oil thrown off the flywheel. Old Triumph twins have a dual cams and the forward cam/tappets can be a wear issue with more aggressive lobe profiles.
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Please excuse me if I don't cover the same ground again, (And again, and again.) but the tappets spin but do so by a very slight radius of the cam lobe rather than the tappet. Why? I have no idea. Perhaps something to do with he application of the DLC.
Sorry, this stuff has been considered. Long time. Not that I'm not thankful for the input.
Pete
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I'm figuring there is a lack of oil, or the temperatures at the cam/tappet are too high for the oil getting there. Flat tappets work fine in most engines.
Or they made the springs too stiff, that bit a few designers. Even maybe the Hydros...
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I'm figuring there is a lack of oil, or the temperatures at the cam/tappet are too high for the oil getting there. Flat tappets work fine in most engines.
Or they made the springs too stiff, that bit a few designers. Even maybe the Hydros...
There's been quite a few amateur detectives on this case but the frustrating thing is no one has solved it yet.
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Oh, I doubt we'll ever KNOW, it would cost as much as a new bike or more to actually do some proper testing.
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Would it help to have a metallurgist look at some of the worn bits that are going to be discarded?
My big bro has a masters in Metallurgy/Materials Science Engineering from Lehigh and has worked as one (granted mostly in the bio-medical and precious metals field most of his career). Though he is a lifelong gearhead and taught me much of the basics of mechanics when I was young. We had him analyze some failed risers years ago and I suspect he'd be happy to see if he can add to the discussion.
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OK, I've decided to bite the bullet and get the griso rollerised this winter. My 2010 Griso has just passed 18.000 km.
I've been writing my dealer, but just to be sure, it's a kit like this (or similar, perhaps C, I'll let the tec find that out), I need, right?
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/camshaft-kit-a-8v-10-12-s-g-n-1a002060-moto-guzzi
Now Pete and Mollys dealer apparently agree: Get the thing fixed asap!
What do reputable workshops in the US say? Any word from the likes of MPH, Moto International or others on this issue?
/Steffen, Denmark, where it's often cold and damp...
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Yeah. Wow! Perhaps you'll understand why people get really short shrift if they come into my shop yelling and poking me in the chest, (Yes, that has happened!) and telling me I have to fix their horrible broken shitter for nothing and 'Sort it out with the importer'. The ones that do that are invariably the ones that bought the bike elsewhere because it was 'Cheaper' than I could provide it but expect me to take it up the arse and do all the work, usually caused by the incompetence of the 'Box Shop' *Mechanics* or their own fiddling, when it all falls in a screaming heap.
Treat me right and I'll try and move heaven and earth to get a good outcome. Give me crap and oddly enough you'll find me *Busy* until long after hell has frozen over!
Pete
BRAVO!
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I've done that Kev, several times. The Australian Mint has some of the best metalurgists and facilities in the country. I've also had help from other sources including a member here who chooses to remain anonymous who has access and skills to use the electron microscope the pics were taken with, it's not a Box Brownie! :grin:
What I have found that is useful and relevant I've passed on here but I've also tried to keep information simple, clear and concise because otherwise we end up in a situation like now where everybody starts brainstorming and logic and science go out the window.
I've waded through several papers that are so technical and boring they'd make an imbecile weep and while the information gleaned was useful I really wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy to be honest! The info IS out there though if one chooses to pursue it. If anyone else wants to? Be my guest. It's a long and mainly dull slog.
Pete
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At this point in time I'd suspect the factory knows what the problem is and the solution. The rollers may be the work around fix. Time will tell. Someone here mentioned, (a while ago), rocker arm ratio, and excess pressure on cams and lifters to open valves. Maybe? I ran automatic screw machines many years back and the quickest way to ruin a cam and rollers was to put undo spring pressure on them. Many attempts went into cam metallurgy, hardening, coatings, etc., with little, if any, success.The valve spring pressure may be fine, but if the rocker ratio and or it's design is faulty your still going to have excess pressure on the cam and followers. If I owned a 4VPC Griso, etc. I would do as Pete suggests and have it inspected for wear and take it from there. Good luck to you 4VPC owners.
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At this point in time I'd suspect the factory knows what the problem is and the solution. The rollers may be the work around fix. Time will tell. Someone here mentioned, (a while ago), rocker arm ratio, and excess pressure on cams and lifters to open valves. Maybe? I ran automatic screw machines many years back and the quickest way to ruin a cam and rollers was to put undo spring pressure on them. Many attempts went into cam metallurgy, hardening, coatings, etc., with little, if any, success.The valve spring pressure may be fine, but if the rocker ratio and or it's design is faulty your still going to have excess pressure on the cam and followers. If I owned a 4VPC Griso, etc. I would do as Pete suggests and have it inspected for wear and take it from there. Good luck to you 4VPC owners.
This sounds eerily like the Lario valve problem. There's still no definitive answer on that, either.
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Just out of curiosity, what does this camshaft kit cost in dollars? From the TLM site it looks like 1,000 Euros but is that what they sell for here?
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:1: to all this and yes I know you've been saying it a long time, head in the sand owners ignored you
But one thing still bothers me, almost every post here with problem has mayo, if and only if it is the mayo causing the problem, rollers ain't going to fix it, only a drain to sump can
A definitive cause would be good to read, been a lot of customers burnt by it
Hope everyone here gets their upgrade without $, I can't see any other way to move on
18 months ago my local long established Guzzi dealer here in the U.K. told me that the 8v flat tappet motor was seriously flawed and he was 'fiddling' warranty claims so that even healthy motors were getting rollerised. He was doing the work for a nominal fee to keep his customers from leaving the brand.
At the time I was thinking of buying a new old stock 1200 Sport and part of the deal was that I rode it round the block and the warranty claim was put in for the rollers. I was very tempted but just couldn't get my head around the concept of repairing a brand new bike so left the deal on the table.
I have no problems with the repair to the flat tappet motors which I'm sure is now sorted but the way Piaggio handled it was lamentable. Unlike Honda who had plenty of other engines on the market when they had cam problems the Guzzi 8v motor was a big part of the model range and after the 1200 2v motors owners moved on to 8v's thinking Guzzi was on the way back to main stream popularity. The whole 8v debacle has done great damage to the brands reputation here in the U.K. I hope the cost saving mean spirited response was worth it for the company but it's reputation might take a while to recover.
Let's face it Guzzi knew full well there was a problem from the earliest failures. If they didn't their engineering expertise must be seriously questioned. They left owners with bikes that would inevitably fail at some stage and took the head in the sand approach. They are not the only ones playing this game but it still stinks.
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:1: to all this and yes I know you've been saying it a long time, head in the sand owners ignored you
But one thing still bothers me, almost every post here with problem has mayo, if and only if it is the mayo causing the problem, rollers ain't going to fix it, only a drain to sump can
A definitive cause would be good to read, been a lot of customers burnt by it
Hope everyone here gets their upgrade without $, I can't see any other way to move on
We'll see - I'm in Houston and have 32k miles on my 2012 Stelvio
I've send a note to Mike at MPH to see when he has time to pop a cam box to have a look, hope to get it over to him in the next couple weeks
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But one thing still bothers me, almost every post here with problem has mayo.....
Not me! It was clean as a whistle under my northern hemisphere non whinging valve covers :-). Always has been!
John
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I've done that Kev, several times. The Australian Mint has some of the best metalurgists and facilities in the country. I've also had help from other sources including a member here who chooses to remain anonymous who has access and skills to use the electron microscope the pics were taken with, it's not a Box Brownie! :grin:
What I have found that is useful and relevant I've passed on here but I've also tried to keep information simple, clear and concise because otherwise we end up in a situation like now where everybody starts brainstorming and logic and science go out the window.
I've waded through several papers that are so technical and boring they'd make an imbecile weep and while the information gleaned was useful I really wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy to be honest! The info IS out there though if one chooses to pursue it. If anyone else wants to? Be my guest. It's a long and mainly dull slog.
Pete
Yeah, now that you say that I feel like we've discussed it before and I mentioned my big bro then... sorry... getting old enough that CRS is setting in I guess.
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Elephant in the room. So long as it remains unnamed, it can be discussed and talked about at MG and the get er done folks will simply ante up to pay partial costs out if their own pockets.
That unnamed elephant would be the POS flat tappet design used by MG or manufactured the way they made it. Call it what it is.
If it is as being related here, then there should be a recall, not more digging into pockets to pay for it. That probably goes against the grain because demanding MG recall bikes with flawed engine designs instead of paying for an inspection is tantamount to blasphemy. If the problem is as implied, also mayo, then it is only a matter of time before it starts showing up in the roller bikes too.
Firing up the car to run to the store because the MG will bathe itself in mayo on a short trip is amazing. I guess that makes it special? Yeah, the flat tappet ain't for sale, well, no one is breaking down the door to buy it either and as this becomes generally known, better keep it too because there are too many other choices out there and none of them have Kraft as part of the logo.
BTW, insurance covers the costs associated with hitting animals, it doesn't cover any part of fixing a flawed design. The lengths gone to to mitigate paying for an inspection is amazing. MG needs to recall and I don't think that is too far down the road.
Of course, if you had customers doing everything they can to convince those affected to cough up for the inspection, what would you do besides ordering up another espresso and laughing?
Let the bombs drop and flame throwers ignite.
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At this point in time I'd suspect the factory knows what the problem is and the solution. The rollers may be the work around fix. Time will tell. Someone here mentioned, (a while ago), rocker arm ratio, and excess pressure on cams and lifters to open valves. Maybe? I ran automatic screw machines many years back and the quickest way to ruin a cam and rollers was to put undo spring pressure on them. Many attempts went into cam metallurgy, hardening, coatings, etc., with little, if any, success.The valve spring pressure may be fine, but if the rocker ratio and or it's design is faulty your still going to have excess pressure on the cam and followers. If I owned a 4VPC Griso, etc. I would do as Pete suggests and have it inspected for wear and take it from there. Good luck to you 4VPC owners.
I'd actually pondered the rocker arm ratio issue but what made me at best ambivalent about it is that when you compare it to the gen1 8V's the valve train is lighter and the springs are softer, (The first gen engines also used dual coil rather than single 'Beehive' springs.). If you look at a Daytona/Centauro tappet it is solid rather than hollow and the wretched things are very heavy/massive.
The rocker ratio is very similar with both engines but while it is possible to snap rockers on the old Hi-Cam if they are over revved their tappets aren't failure prone. Their cam profiles aren't as weird though as the Nuovo Hi-Cam.
Pete
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I bet there's no recall as rider safety is not an issue.
"A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards".
Best,
Peter
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That is unfortunately true. The roller conversion is considered a 'Technical Update' rather than a recall which has all sorts of legal ramifications I'm sure, (In a 'Weasel Wordy' sort of way!) and, at least here, on the parts site the conversions are called an 'Upgrade Kit'.
Pete
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Just out of curiosity, what does this camshaft kit cost in dollars? From the TLM site it looks like 1,000 Euros but is that what they sell for here?
I think in the rollerisation thread I posted up the prices as listed on the AF1 site. As previously stated if you're doing it pre-emptively on your own dime and have a bike that needs a 'C' kit it's cheaper to buy a 'B' kit and add the bits you need to convert it to a 'C'.
Pete
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So on the way to work yesterday, I was sitting at a long red light, thinking about my failed valve tappets on my Stelvio. I started to think about switching to BMW, or Honda, or later as I road past Frazier's Harley Davidson, maybe.......
But then I realized that HD does not have a model that I want. BWM does NOT have a good record of customer support, and neither does Honda. The grass is NOT green over there.
So, I continued to enjoy the nice ride in to work on my EV. I really like the EV.
That's my problem. I can't afford to fool with buying price, parts prices, or service prices for a BMW, and the dealer is farther away than the Guzzi dealer. A Honda CB1100 dresser would be nice, but Fay and I sat on one and there's not enough room front to back (same issues I faced that sent me to the Stelvio in the first place). I don't want an HD.
Triumph ... ? Hmmm .....
Lannis
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Just out of curiosity, what does this camshaft kit cost in dollars? From the TLM site it looks like 1,000 Euros but is that what they sell for here?
AF1 Racing has them for US $999 (plus shipping and taxes of course!)
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Early VW 2.0 turbo engines used a cam follower design to run a high pressure fuel pump. They had the exact same results MG is experiencing with these 8 valve engines. I have one of the cam followers on my desk that I took out of my 2007 GTI and it looks just like one of Pete's pictures above. The DLC is wearing off.
Great discussions ensued on the VW boards just like this one here. VW did eventually step up and extend the warranty on the cams and the fuel pumps to cover the potential damage due to this design (120,000 miles).
The design is not unsound. Most everyone agreed that the problem developed because oil formulations were changed to help meet emission standards. Less zinc (ZDDP) is used and more wear is present. This is undoubtedly exacerbated by cool oil temps on the MG 8 valve engines (some of Pete's research).
VW gave up on the 2006 design in late 2008. They moved the HPFP and its now driven by the timing chain.
Unfortunately, Moto Guzzi is not in a position to redesign their 8 valve engines. They don't have the deep pockets VW has. At least they came up with rollers. Now they need to step up and extend their warranty.
Extending the warranty makes a lot of sense. Let's be fair though, MG didn't need to redesign anything, looks like there was enough development information there to do it right the first time instead of doing it twice later.
Extending a warranty is a sound way to address the problem, GM has done it with transmissions recently, providing 100,000 mile warranties for certain models because of a wave plate failure.
If the problem will happen to all flat tappet motors but only after a certain point, the actuaries can figure out the benefit to cost ratio of a warranty vs a recall and fix.
The problem with a warranty here is the results. As described, the engine chews on itself and the preventative solution is minor compared to the eventual problem. With a warranty, owners simply ride until the engine goes FUBAR and calls the dealer and MG has to fix it all or replace the engine. With a preventative fix, the numbers will be higher but the costs might be much less not to mention the PR value of a bike getting fixed vs those that sit along side the road or get trailered in with useless engines.
Not much speaks louder than an engine that eats itself and the owner is left stranded vs a scheduled repair and the satisfaction of the owner knowing they were taken care of and will buy again.
A manufacturer can recall anything they want and call it anything they want, its schematics, something the customer doesn't really care about.
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My current solution, and it isn't based 100% on the tappet issue. If wishes were dishes (or if my Griso were my 1200 Sport) there'd be no question I'd throw $999.00 + at the problem for my own POM. However, the GRiSO and I just haven't personally meshed as well as I have with the Sport. So ................
The 2012 Tenni Green Griso 8vSE is currently on eBay. If I receive the offer I want, she is off to a new owner. If the offer doesn't happen, I'll keep the Griso and spend the bucks on the roller kit. The other option would be to simply double up on checking valve clearances. It's easier and quicker to perform on the Griso than on the Sport, even though dealing with double the valves.
Replacing tappets would hopefully leave me with a Griso that would be stone axe reliable, but that still doesn't work for me ergonomically. So, one more step .... see if I can have the forks and shock rebuilt so that the bike bears some semblance to a sport tourer, not a jack hammer. If those things happen, I could see Ms Griso sticking around for years.
However, if some Griso fanatic comes through with the proper $$$$ on eBay, I'll be looking for another ride. I'm thinking another Bonneville T100, or perhaps something totally new to me like the Tiger 800.
Bob
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Schematics :huh:
Dusty
DUSTY ! :thewife:
:boozing:
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It's bad form to question the semantics of schematics. :laugh:
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]
Had the same issues with my griso suspension until recently when I took the time to set it up properly. It had way to much preload front and rear so I backed them off and set the dampening s right by the manual standard settings,they were way off as well, unbelievable difference. The roads here are terrible and I suffered way to long for lack of checking it out properly. The p.o. actually had the compression and rebound settings backwards. Also he was a lot heavier and must have cranked the preload front and rear. Have you tried adjusting yours at all?
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Just checked, my Griso has the flat tappets. sigh.....
While I have not completely gelled with the Griso; we do seem to have come to terms with each other and is set up rather nicely now. The Honda 650L has soaked up more money than she is worth and is still asking for attention. Like a sucker I keep tossing time and effort (and $$) at her. Now it looks like the Griso is envious and wants the same. But I can't afford two money pits. But what has been pointed out earlier, I'd lose more bucks shedding her than sucking it up and getting her right. Once "upgraded" I doubt I'll ever put enough miles on her to find any weaknesses, if any, in the roller tappet design, but the whole affair leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Lucky for me the Griso is so damn good looking.
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A way to think about this is to decide if you like the bike enough to have thrown another grand at it when it was new. Most people (conjecture alert) don't pay retail for Grisos, do they? If roller tappets work, it's all good!
Best,
Peter
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A way to think about this is to decide if you like the bike enough to have thrown another grand at it when it was new. Most people (conjecture alert) don't pay retail for Grisos, do they? If roller tappets work, it's all good!
Best,
Peter
Well, I bought mine used.
And that "grand" represents an 18% "tip".
Thanks Piaggio, for thinking so little of such a storied marque and the people that love them.
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Schematics :huh:
Dusty
No, semantics. Schematics are what others use to find their way into people's bank accounts and have make them feel thankful for the privilege.
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What are you going to do? Draw us a map. Bobs plan looks reasonable under the circumstances. Not ideal, but reasonable. Not being an 8v owner I can't experience the full effect of this bitter pill. Kind of spoils any brand loyalty you might have had.
Best,
Peter
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Gentlemen,
Moto Guzzi always has been, and likely always will be, a boutique manufacturer. Without the volume to spread R&D as well as warranty costs, these types of things will always happen from time to time.
If that reality does not appeal to you, sell it and move on to a mass produced bike from a major manufacturer.
YMMV
Kip
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Gentlemen,
Moto Guzzi always has been, and likely always will be, a boutique manufacturer. Without the volume to spread R&D as well as warranty costs, these types of things will always happen from time to time.
If that reality does not appeal to you, sell it and move on to a mass produced bike from a major manufacturer.
YMMV
Kip
And to think, I've been called an apologist.
I don't know what kind of alternate reality is supposed to accept this kind of FU and take it on the chin.
But any modern motorcycle manufacturer (that charged anything around typical market prices) should be making 100k mile machines that don't need things like CAMSHAFTS, LIFTERS, ROCKER ARMS, etc. during that (or realistically relatively long after that) period.
That said, we have seen some odd failures across the industry since the introduction of modern reduced ZDDP oils.... Hmmm
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What are you going to do? Draw us a map. Bobs plan looks reasonable under the circumstances. Not ideal, but reasonable. Not being an 8v owner I can't experience the full effect of this bitter pill. Kind of spoils any brand loyalty you might have had.
Best,
Peter
Yes, Peter. A bitter pill, indeed.
Not sure WHAT to do just yet. Just need to wait and see where all this is heading.
My "map" will fit only my circumstances, as Bob's will only fit him, and so on and so on..
In the short term, I plan to monitor valve lash and ride the snot out of it. (leaving out of state on it in the morning)
Seeing good dealers and quality mechanics struggle to provide us with great running Guzzi's, it's just tough to witness Piaggio's
current response that is all.
Piaggio & C. SpA is no boutique.
~michael(still loving my guzzi)miller
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Gentlemen,
Moto Guzzi always has been, and likely always will be, a boutique manufacturer. Without the volume to spread R&D as well as warranty costs, these types of things will always happen from time to time.
If that reality does not appeal to you, sell it and move on to a mass produced bike from a major manufacturer.
YMMV
Kip
Says the chicken to the pig as they're discussing the impact of breakfast on the farmyard animals? :grin: You sound suspiciously like a guy with no flat-tappet 8-valver in the shed at the moment ... :wink: Haven't looked in there for a while though.
Lannis
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Had to resort to Wiki to recall how it went ......
A Pig and a Chicken are walking down the road.The Chicken says: "Hey Pig, I was thinking we should open a restaurant!"Pig replies: "Hm, maybe, what would we call it?"The Chicken responds: "How about 'ham-n-eggs'?"The Pig thinks for a moment and says: "No thanks. You'd be involved .... but for me it would be total commitment!"
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Had to resort to Wiki to recall how it went ......
A Pig and a Chicken are walking down the road.The Chicken says: "Hey Pig, I was thinking we should open a restaurant!"Pig replies: "Hm, maybe, what would we call it?"The Chicken responds: "How about 'ham-n-eggs'?"The Pig thinks for a moment and says: "No thanks. You'd be involved .... but for me it would be total commitment!"
Yep, one of those jokes whose punchline has become a proverb. Sort of like "What do you mean WE, paleface?" :grin:
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No doubt the future buying advice will mirror that for chrome bores, offer two prices, one for flat tappets intact, one for rollerized.
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No doubt the future buying advice will mirror that for chrome bores, offer two prices, one for flat tappets intact, one for rollerized.
That's already the way the Ducati world works. One price if the latest engine service including valve lash shimming has been done, another price if it hasn't ....
Lannis
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Two stroke conversion kit.
Get rid of the valve train altogether! :boozing:
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/valve%20cover%20window_zps0xedhgpn.jpg)
Move along, nothing to see here.
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That's already the way the Ducati world works. One price if the latest engine service including valve lash shimming has been done, another price if it hasn't ....
Lannis
Ya know, that's kinda funny now that you mention it.
Looking at this strictly from a financial standpoint, what's the difference between this and a Ducati?
I mean we just paid $1200ish to service Jenn's bike and didn't blink an eye.
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I have no idea what the going rate for a basic service with valve check on a Ducati is. For the same service on an 8V Griso I would charge probably $375-450 all up.
That wouldn't include a brake and clutch bleed but the fluid would be checked with a hygrometer. Nor would it include stuff like fork oil change or suspension linkage and swingarm bearing lube or steering head bearing lube. It's a basic *Full* service. All oils, oil filter, air filter check and replace in necessary, valves, TB balance and TPS reset, etc, etc.
So what do you get with the Ducati for the extra 800 oxfords? Just wondering? And how often does this need to be done?
Pete
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I have no idea what the going rate for a basic service with valve check on a Ducati is. For the same service on an 8V Griso I would charge probably $375-450 all up.
That wouldn't include a brake and clutch bleed but the fluid would be checked with a hygrometer. Nor would it include stuff like fork oil change or suspension linkage and swingarm bearing lube or steering head bearing lube. It's a basic *Full* service. All oils, oil filter, air filter check and replace in necessary, valves, TB balance and TPS reset, etc, etc.
So what do you get with the Ducati for the extra 800 oxfords? Just wondering? And how often does this need to be done?
Pete
Well, I should clarify.
That $1200 was more than just a valve service.
This was a standard 7500 mile service (the basic service interval) which includes a lot of checks, plus a number of other big ticket items I added because of the age of the bike. My OM shows the valve checks as a standard item, every 7500 miles for the life of the bike. However I've been told by multiple sources that after the first TWO (15,000 miles) that you can extend them to 15,000/check. I may have even seen that on an official Ducati chart (all model chart).
Anyway the 7500 mile big ticket items are:
* Valves
* Timing Belts*
But because it's been 4 years and this is Jenn's bike (and she was paying) I didn't scrimp and also added the following:
* Brake fluid change
* Clutch fluid change
* FORK fluid change (need to remove the forks for this)
* New Rear Pirelli Angel because the original rear tire was punctured (which prompted finally doing this whole service)
*The bike was 4 years old and running on the original timing belts (Ducati's recommendation is to check tension on them every 7500 miles and to replace them every 2 years. The belts themselves are around $100, but I should add that the belt manufacturer says their belts should be good for 10 years EXCEPT on Ducatis where they don't want to go against the manufacturer's recommendations and potentially buy customer's motors).
I believe this particular dealership's standard VALVE and TIMING BELT CHECK (along with the other basic checks, throttle body sync, check fluids with hygroscope etc.) would have only cost $600. Fork fluid change was $200. I'm assuming the rear tire was around $200. So the extra $200 was other parts (timing belts) and sundry other items like the fluid changes.
Not unreasonable at all.
But I find it funny that we're probably talking similar amounts to the Roller Conversion for an 8V... which in theory you only have to do once.
I think I find the later unreasonable just because we have all rightly come to think of things like camshafts and rockers and valves as essentially lifetime components and not standard maintenance "wear" items. But taking that emotion out of the picture, the Guzzi 8V owner can tell themselves that they would have spent a LOT MORE in the lifetime of a Ducati motor.
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Gee don't blame the oil! Millions of flat tappet engines worldwide, old and new, continue to function every day. Many are brand new.
I do wish that Guzzi would help a bit more, but it's true, sometimes stuff like this happens. 12 years ago it was the hydros.
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....the Guzzi 8V owner can tell themselves that they would have spent a LOT MORE in the lifetime of a Ducati motor.
This was my thought and not just from owning a Ducati as other bikes have high maintenance costs. And if the owner's of 8V motors do the regular maintenance avoiding the cost of bringing it to the dealer over the course of say 40,000 miles they are way ahead of this problem in terms of finances. BUT, I still wouldn't be happy about doing this fix.
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I think I find the later unreasonable just because we have all rightly come to think of things like camshafts and rockers and valves as essentially lifetime components and not standard maintenance "wear" items.
That, I believe, is the crux of the argument. If it cost you $1200 for a service on an 8V, you'd bemoan the cost but still pony up. It's the unnecessary cost of this that's the issue. If you blow a clutch or a big end, or your CARC bearings fail, and you're out of warranty, you're not happy, but there not much to be done but pay for the fix. When it's likely that all flat tappets will probably (eventually) eat themselves regardless of how well the bike is looked after, it's a justifiable anger.
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That, I believe, is the crux of the argument. If it cost you $1200 for a service on an 8V, you'd bemoan the cost but still pony up. It's the unnecessary cost of this that's the issue. If you blow a clutch or a big end, or your CARC bearings fail, and you're out of warranty, you're not happy, but there not much to be done but pay for the fix. When it's likely that all flat tappets will probably (eventually) eat themselves regardless of how well the bike is looked after, it's a justifiable anger.
This. ^^^^
It's not the money.
If I buy a Ducati, I KNOW what I'm getting into. I know I'm buying a highly-strung high performance engine with cam belts and bits to help it rev high that NEED to be serviced at given intervals. The dealer will tell me what it will cost and I buy the bike knowing what the deal is. THAT'S a true "Pay to Play".
This flat tappet thing is the opposite. It's an unexpected failure of a basic, unstressed (or shouldn't be stressed) component because someone at the manufacturer was asleep at the switch. This is (or should be) a LOW-STRESSED touring bike that should hum and rumble along forever like a SP1000; it's not a screaming, case-warping, piston-melting eyes-bugged-out racing engine .... and what hurts is, this is exactly and specifically why I did NOT buy a Ducati Multistrada and bought a Guzzi instead.
Lannis
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Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. Jen's Ducati is a de tuned engine. The 8V Guzzi engine by contrast is fairly highly tuned for what it is.
Look, as I keep trying to stress I think the whole thing has been and still is being handled very badly and no, owners of failed bikes, (Providing they can supply a full service history.) should not be expected to foot the bill but don't get shitty with your dealer or service agent because we have absolutely zero control over the issue.
Also I completely agree that the problem shouldn't of occurred in the first place, nor should it of been allowed to continue but what I want to see is people informed and wise to the issues and understand them rather than just ranting.
Pete
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Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. Jen's Ducati is a de tuned engine. The 8V Guzzi engine by contrast is fairly highly tuned for what it is.
Look, as I keep trying to stress I think the whole thing has been and still is being handled very badly and no, owners of failed bikes, (Providing they can supply a full service history.) should not be expected to foot the bill but don't get shitty with your dealer or service agent because we have absolutely zero control over the issue.
Also I completely agree that the problem shouldn't of occurred in the first place, nor should it of been allowed to continue but what I want to see is people informed and wise to the issues and understand them rather than just ranting.
Pete
A man needs a good rant sometimes, especially regarding motorcycles. Otherwise it all builds up and he goes very quiet and his nose swells up and his teeth will start moving about and he becomes very violent and claim that he laid Stanley Baldwin.....
Lannis
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Well
Heard all and have experienced all.
My 2009(new left over new to me in 2011) Grisio 8v only made to 9K before it started making noise and Pete said to have looked at NOW. Well out of warranty but Guzzi did say i give parts you pay labor.
Now all is done and i go forward. yes it did cost me $1k for it but i could have done that on bling for the bike(did it anyway carbon everything-fender, huggie, starter cover, valve cover shields(only 6 sets every made in USA).
Point is I love it and lavished my coin on it.
By the what is correct valve clearance (heard so many variations) for a roller 8V Griso
Micky
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Could someone run the 4 valve head on 2 valves to reduce the premature wear of the cam until he has saved up (Guzzi content) enough money for the kit ?
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By the what is correct valve clearance (heard so many variations) for a roller 8V Griso
4 & 6 thou
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It seems so easy to say something is reasonable when you got screwed. The services needed for the Ducati are known and expected. The problems with the flats were not expected, big difference.
I don't know about others but I'd never justify an unexpected expense for a design failure based on the costs for something else. The Ducati is a choice isn't it? Who buys bad hamburger and then says the price is reasonable because filet mignon is more than twice the price? There is no reason to go into despair but saying this is reasonable because something else costs as much or more is really unreasonable.
There is a silver lining though. There are some folks that will discover the root causes, they've posted the upgrade procedure so that the expense can be reduced and I bet extra attention is being paid to oil changes, use patterns and some will preemptively address the problem and that improves the community even if Moto Guzzi/Piaggio doesn't improve its warranty and customer service.
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My Stelvio's tappets went at 50,000 miles (now has 62,000). My wife's Griso SE's tappets went at 33,000. The cost in labor for each was about the cost to have a valve adjustment done on a Ducati. IMHO, it didn't bother me that much other than losing some riding time. After all that, they are both among the least costly vehicles to own I've ever had.
I love my Stelvio to the point if something catastrophic were to happen to it, I'd go out and buy another one tomorrow. My wife feels the same way about her Griso. Guzzi provided the parts for both bikes gratis. The Stelvio was 3 some odd years out of warranty. The wife's Griso a couple of years out.
Yes, I wish that Guzzi had preemptively replaced the flats with rollers, but not the end of the world for me.
Doug
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Ducati behaved the sale way with their defective Sport Classic tanks. It took a class action suit to get them to extend the warranty on the tank...which they replaced with the same defective tank :violent1:
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Ah, but there's the crux of the matter. Jen's Ducati is a de tuned engine. The 8V Guzzi engine by contrast is fairly highly tuned for what it is.
Wait, what are we trying to justify or not with that comparison?
For the record, you call 80 crank hp (69rwhp) from a 2v/cyl 696cc twin DE-TUNED and 110 crank hp (95rwhpl) from a 4v/cyl 1151cc twin HIGHLY TUNED?
That means the Duc is making about 73% of the Griso power with only 60% of the engine size and 2 fewer valves per cylinder.
I'm missing something there.
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Ducati behaved the sale way with their defective Sport Classic tanks. It took a class action suit to get them to extend the warranty on the tank...which they replaced with the same defective tank :violent1:
GM managed to have more than a few people not only accept worthless ignitions but then claim the ability to remove the ignition key while the engine was running was a good thing to have. The GM being less costly to maintain than a Dodge Viper made all the difference.
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My Stelvio's tappets went at 50,000 miles (now has 62,000). My wife's Griso SE's tappets went at 33,000. The cost in labor for each was about the cost to have a valve adjustment done on a Ducati. IMHO, it didn't bother me that much other than losing some riding time. After all that, they are both among the least costly vehicles to own I've ever had.
I love my Stelvio to the point if something catastrophic were to happen to it, I'd go out and buy another one tomorrow. My wife feels the same way about her Griso. Guzzi provided the parts for both bikes gratis. The Stelvio was 3 some odd years out of warranty. The wife's Griso a couple of years out.
Yes, I wish that Guzzi had preemptively replaced the flats with rollers, but not the end of the world for me.
Doug
Will you quit presenting such a reasonable testimony? We're on an energetic rant here!!
Lannis
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:grin:
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My mistake Kev. I thought Jen's was a 4V.
Pete
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I wonder how many owners are out there are blissfully unaware of this problem. Let's face it not everyone bothers with forums and Guzzi and it's dealers (present company excepted)) are certainly not advertising the fact. There also must be a few potential buyers going into dealers or on ebay this weekend looking for a used 8v Guzzi. The sellers will have their poker faces on and both fingers crossed behind their backs in anticipation of a sale and so the merry-go-round will turn for a while longer.
I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork etc. etc. yet.
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I wonder how many owners are out there are blissfully unaware of this problem. Let's face it not everyone bothers with forums and Guzzi and it's dealers (present company excepted)) are certainly not advertising the fact. There also must be a few potential buyers going into dealers or on ebay this weekend looking for a used 8v Guzzi. The sellers will have their poker faces on and both fingers crossed behind their backs in anticipation of a sale and so the merry-go-round will turn for a while longer.
I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork etc. etc. yet.
Yes, it's pretty bad. I remember talking to a guzzi dealer last year about it. It was a very tough/stressful situation for them.
It's one thing for the owner to accept the roller conversion but it's another to realize that microscopic crap is floating inside the engine of their pride and joy.
Seems like UK 8V customers had been vocal about this for years. Always wondered, did this have anything to do the closure of the UK guzzi forum? I went back to look for the cam thread and the forum seem to have disappeared! Did piaggio buy out the forum owner? Lol!
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I'm not sure why the GB owners club pulled their forum section that related to owners problems. I do know they got paranoid at one time about Piaggio UK because my threads on Guzzidiag mapping were pulled on the basis the moderator thought I was somehow in conflict with Piaggio's products. Mind you most of the members hadn't got their heads round the 1200 2v motor never mind a 8v.
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Gee don't blame the oil! Millions of flat tappet engines worldwide, old and new, continue to function every day. Many are brand new.
Not exactly..... the big mess that happened about 15 years ago when ZDDP oil levels were lowered in US market oil . It didn't affect the pedestrian engines like the 4.0 Jeeps and Chevy V8 trucks built before 96....But it was a huge issue with high performance push rod flat tappet engines.
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Ya know, that's kinda funny now that you mention it.
Looking at this strictly from a financial standpoint, what's the difference between this and a Ducati?
I mean we just paid $1200ish to service Jenn's bike and didn't blink an eye.
What is the difference? About 50 hp.
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I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork etc. etc. yet.
Maybe it's because the people who've had it done are happy keeping their now-refreshed bikes? We can hope... :grin:
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]
Had the same issues with my griso suspension until recently when I took the time to set it up properly. It had way to much preload front and rear so I backed them off and set the dampening s right by the manual standard settings,they were way off as well, unbelievable difference. The roads here are terrible and I suffered way to long for lack of checking it out properly. The p.o. actually had the compression and rebound settings backwards. Also he was a lot heavier and must have cranked the preload front and rear. Have you tried adjusting yours at all?
I used the factory settings for a while .... then took the bike to a shop where an excellent ex-Guzzi tech and overall good technician works. We set proper sag, and worked thru various graduated compression and rebound settings until it was much improved over what it was before. However, my favorite roads, though they don't require an ADV bike, still beat me up on the Griso. So when I want to take my favorites, I ride either the 1200 Sport or the old GS. When I'm out on the Griso, I plan my ride by the condition of the road surface.
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I couldn't stand not knowing for sure. 2012 NTX purchased in October 2012.
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp19/demar39/Stelvio%20Valves.png)
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I couldn't stand not knowing for sure. 2012 NTX purchased in October 2012
You are a very lucky person. Rollers. I bought mine at the same time and its flats.
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I wonder how many owners are out there are blissfully unaware of this problem. Let's face it not everyone bothers with forums and Guzzi and it's dealers (present company excepted)) are certainly not advertising the fact. There also must be a few potential buyers going into dealers or on ebay this weekend looking for a used 8v Guzzi. The sellers will have their poker faces on and both fingers crossed behind their backs in anticipation of a sale and so the merry-go-round will turn for a while longer.
I have not seen a bike advertised that states a roller conversion has been done with all relevant paperwork etc. etc. yet.
More likely this is the beginning and as time goes by you'll hear more about this, from unsuspecting buyers of the flat tappet bikes.
This might not be a real big deal for some, hey, what is a thousand bucks anyway, but for those buying one only to find out they didn't get such a good deal, it will be a big deal. Its shortsighted to look at this as just another expense, it harms the brand and it doesn't matter if you have a flat tappet MG or not, the shadow casts long and wide. That your bike might have rollers doesn't matter too much, its a MG and if enough flat tappet bikes end up eating engines, it affects us all.
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You are a very lucky person. Rollers. I bought mine at the same time and its flats.
:1:
MG should cover the cost of parts and labor for all 8V roller upgrades. They should at least cover the parts cost as they designed it and they built it. I wonder if it's a material property issue. Remember the recall for the suspension link? That was due to using components that were not properly heat treated.
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I'm not sure why the GB owners club pulled their forum section that related to owners problems. I do know they got paranoid at one time about Piaggio UK because my threads on Guzzidiag mapping were pulled on the basis the moderator thought I was somehow in conflict with Piaggio's products. Mind you most of the members hadn't got their heads round the 1200 2v motor never mind a 8v.
I am a member of the GB club. The current issue of their magazine, Gambalunga, has a two page spread regarding the lawsuit about premature cam and flat tappet wear on Stelvio. It is an interesting read. Most notable is that Piaggio claim they do not "sell" motorcycles but only "promote" sales via a dealer network. Dealer goes out of business and that's your problem.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Most notable is that Piaggio claim they do not "sell" motorcycles but only "promote" sales via a dealer network. Dealer goes out of business and that's your problem.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
This could be the short answer to Curtis Harper's thread "Why are there so few Guzzi Dealers?"
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I get a monthly copy of the trade paper U.K. Motorcycle Dealer News. They do quarterly polls on dealer satisfaction over a number of categories. Piaggio regularly come bottom or near bottom in most areas. So your dealer maybe excellent but their working relationship with the importer could be holding them back, plus it doesn't encourage new dealerships.
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What is the difference? About 50 hp.
The difference is that that's a one time cost on the 8v's. It's a continual outlay for service for a Duc.
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The difference is that that's a one time cost on the 8v's. It's a continual outlay for service for a Duc.
Not to muddy the waters too much further, but that's only partially true.
Just a valve and belt service on the Duc should be more like $600 max. And after the first two at 7500 and 15000 miles the interval these days is often 15,000 per.
Meanwhile you still have to check valves on an 8V and if we're comparing factory service costs didn't someone here quote $400-500 for the Guzzi? Let's take $400 vs $600? That means you're only closing the gap by $200 each valve service. If you spend $1200 on the roller upgrade (I'm being conservative to be fair) that's 6 valve and belt services on the Duc.
So you'll have to get to at least 45k+ miles (if you stick with 7500 intervals) or 75k miles (if you change to 15k intervals after the second adjustment) by the time the costs even out.
THEN YES, in theory it's paid for on the 8V and remains a cost on the Duc. Except that you're only piling up $200 more expense every 15k so by 105k miles you've potentially only spent $400 more for that 50 hp.
So one answer is $400 and 50 hp more.
NOTHING is free and you have to pay to play.
So pick your poison.
I do agree with those saying that MG is going to get another black eye from this.
Edit PS, I REALLY love Guzzi and prefer almost all their bikes over a Duc (of which there are literally very few that appeal to me, maybe just the Scramblers these days). So I'm surprised I'm making this financial argument. But at the same time I'm having a problem with Guzzi and these failures that just shouldn't happen (hydro's, dashes, tappets). Maybe part of the problem is such a low volume amplifies the significance of these stumbles.
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I am a member of the GB club. The current issue of their magazine, Gambalunga, has a two page spread regarding the lawsuit about premature cam and flat tappet wear on Stelvio. It is an interesting read. Most notable is that Piaggio claim they do not "sell" motorcycles but only "promote" sales via a dealer network. Dealer goes out of business and that's your problem.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
This is what drives me bonkers. Regardless of the fact that they stuffed up the original design of the top end the way the engine delivers is, for some of us, bloody fantastic!
The problem no appears to have been fixed, we can continue to enjoy the bikes, but those, (Including myself?) seem to be being treated extremely shabbily.
So what to do? I don't know? I don't see a way to solve the problem unless Piaggio are forced to admit they are at fault. If they becomes too expensive they'll just Shit-Can Guzzi.
Most of all though I would ask people not to go into their dealers bellowing and cursing because a.) it's insulting to them and b.) it's not their fault!
I think the whole thing is awful but one has to be pragmatic. Slowly, slowly, catchee, monkey.
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Not to muddy the waters too much further, but that's only partially true.
Just a valve and belt service on the Duc should be more like $600 max. And after the first two at 7500 and 15000 miles the interval these days is often 15,000 per.
Meanwhile you still have to check valves on an 8V and if we're comparing factory service costs didn't someone here quote $400-500 for the Guzzi? Let's take $400 vs $600? That means you're only closing the gap by $200 each valve service. If you spend $1200 on the roller upgrade (I'm being conservative to be fair) that's 6 valve and belt services on the Duc.
So you'll have to get to at least 45k+ miles (if you stick with 7500 intervals) or 75k miles (if you change to 15k intervals after the second adjustment) by the time the costs even out.
THEN YES, in theory it's paid for on the 8V and remains a cost on the Duc. Except that you're only piling up $200 more expense every 15k so by 105k miles you've potentially only spent $400 more for that 50 hp.
So one answer is $400 and 50 hp more.
NOTHING is free and you have to pay to play.
So pick your poison.
I do agree with those saying that MG is going to get another black eye from this.
Edit PS, I REALLY love Guzzi and prefer almost all their bikes over a Duc (of which there are literally very few that appeal to me, maybe just the Scramblers these days). So I'm surprised I'm making this financial argument. But at the same time I'm having a problem with Guzzi and these failures that just shouldn't happen (hydro's, dashes, tappets). Maybe part of the problem is such a low volume amplifies the significance of these stumbles.
I hear ya. I of course made the (perhaps the false) assumption that pretty much all Guzzi riders did the bulk of their own servicing. Whereas I don't know any Ducati riders that really do much of their own service. They do have longer intervals though. Do the older air cooled Duc's have the same intervals, or are they similar to Guzzi for valve adjust? Curious as if the liquid cooled Duc's extend the interval.
FWIW, my roller upgrade cost me about 600 bucks per bike as Guzzi provided the parts gratis. On both bikes (Stelvio and Griso). I do all my own servicing and for me, the 1200 bucks for both bikes will most likely be a one time thing.
Doug
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I'm trying to compare apples to apples, but yeah you could play with the numbers either way depending on how you approach service.
I finda decent number of Duc enthusiasts (at least with the Monsters, and mostly the 2V/air cooled ones) service their own valves. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably a smaller number than Guzzi owners just based on the more involved procedures. But I don't know that the differences in percentages are that big. That said, we see a fair number of Guzzi riders who don't adjust their own valves too (probably the lion's share, just not the lion's share we tend to hang out with).
On Duc valve adjustment intervals I am under the impression Ducati has been extending them with various models over the past decade. First to 7500, and later to 15,000 (the studies I used earlier). I can't say if the latter is more related to water-cooling per se, except that most of their models have become water-cooled around the same time frame. But you have me wondering.
I think, like many JAPanInc. products, that owners frequently extend the intervals further themselves without harm.
So, I think it all "just depends".
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We'll so much for my dream of buying a used Griso ,though I'm sure now the prices will be coming down.
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Do the older air cooled Duc's have the same intervals, or are they similar to Guzzi for valve adjust?
The desmo ducks generally settle in and after about 10-15K miles seem to pretty much stay put. The two valve ducks are easy. Four valves not so much. Can't get to some of em..
That said, adjusting valves for duck owners is a dealer's profit center. :smiley: Takes maybe an hour to do a two valve, they charge for four, nobody complains. :cool:
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OK - I live in the UK, edit the Moto Guzzi Club GB magazine and know of this issue. I'm in the market to buy a used Norge . . . a couple of questions:
1) Can all the non-roller 8V engines be converted to rollers?
2) Any rough idea of the cost of the parts?
And FYI, a couple of GB club members are on their 3rd set of cam followers on their Stelvio. They recently took Piaggio Ltd (UK) to court to get the labour costs paid. They lost - Piaggio Ltd's defence was that they do not sell motorcycles and do not hold any stock of spares. They merely act as agent for Piaggio in Italy.
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OK - I found the cost of the upgrade package but my first question stands - can they all be "rollerised"? Thanks.
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OK - I found the cost of the upgrade package but my first question stands - can they all be "rollerised"? Thanks.
Knowing all that, why by a flat tappet Norge? Is it that you like the older model better or is the initial cost the factor?
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Cost is important. Test rode a 2007 2-valve and then this 2011 4-valve - a better experience! 11,500 miles. Dealer swears by Motul 7100 oil and says 'Why worry?". I am still thinking. Maybe paying a bit more for a later one would make sense.
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It is perfectly possible to rollerise any 8V with flat tappets.
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I'm utterly failing to find the How To to pull the tappet holder so I can inspect my tappets at the cam. Anybody got a link?
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I'm utterly failing to find the How To to pull the tappet holder so I can inspect my tappets at the cam. Anybody got a link?
You have to pull the cam towers, I would have a roller kit handy first.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0
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Thanks! Probably using the wrong terminology.
:bow:
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For my education - what is the difference between the A, B, C and D kits mentioned? And thanks, Pete, for he excellent breakdown on the other thread.
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Componentry and work involved in the swap. It's in the 'Rollerisation' thread.
Pete
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Got it - thanks.
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Cost is important. Test rode a 2007 2-valve and then this 2011 4-valve - a better experience! 11,500 miles. Dealer swears by Motul 7100 oil and says 'Why worry?". I am still thinking. Maybe paying a bit more for a later one would make sense.
It must make sense to hunt down a factory built roller bike. Failing that do a deal which involves the conversion to rollers before riding the bike.
I was involved in a similar conversation with a certain west country dealer when looking to buy a 1200 8v Sport from them. The guy swore blind that Motul 7100 was the answer to the problem, but having read all that has been written here would you take the risk? Other U.K. dealers certainly don't believe the choice of oil will be sufficient.
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"Salesmen have a license to lie.." :evil: :smiley:
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I'm stuck at home today so made a call to a well established north east dealer about a 2011 34000 mile Norge 8v he had in stock.
I mentioned I was only interested in roller bike and he responded by saying he wasn't sure what tappets the bike had and anyway it was a internet myth about the cams and then said he had only two bikes with problems both with over 30000 mikes on the clock. So according to him it's either a myth or so rare it wasn't worth worrying about.
Now I've seen the boxes of worn replaced cams at my local dealer who took the time and trouble to go through the problem in great depth with me. So either my eyes are playing tricks or Mulder and Scully need to get involved with this one.
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Like I said.. :smiley:
That's why Mark Ethridge is such a bad salesman. I was hanging out at MGC one day when a couple were trying to buy a hydro Cali. He said, "Yeah, I know it's beautiful, but I can't sell it to you." Astonished looks. He said, "It has the trifecta.. cracked triple clamp, single plate clutch, and a hydro engine that hasn't been converted.."
He parted it out.
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" I was involved in a similar conversation with a certain west country dealer when looking to buy a 1200 8v Sport from them. The guy swore blind that Motul 7100 was the answer to the problem "
That was the same dealer I spoke to last week!
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" I was involved in a similar conversation with a certain west country dealer when looking to buy a 1200 8v Sport from them. The guy swore blind that Motul 7100 was the answer to the problem "
That was the same dealer I spoke to last week!
Oh yeah.. a chemical solution is always the answer to a mechanical problem. :rolleyes:
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Sometimes it is.
Napalm :evil:
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Oh the joys of trouble free motoring balanced on the knife edge of one particular brand of oil.
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I'm stuck at home today so made a call to a well established north east dealer about a 2011 34000 mile Norge 8v he had in stock.
I mentioned I was only interested in roller bike and he responded by saying he wasn't sure what tappets the bike had and anyway it was a internet myth about the cams and then said he had only two bikes with problems both with over 30000 mikes on the clock. So according to him it's either a myth or so rare it wasn't worth worrying about.
Now I've seen the boxes of worn replaced cams at my local dealer who took the time and trouble to go through the problem in great depth with me. So either my eyes are playing tricks or Mulder and Scully need to get involved with this one.
Why Yugo salespeople should never sell motorcycles.
He is right on one thing, it is rare. This is because IMHO most owners will sell their flat tappet bikes knowing the problem exists but not say anything about it. Ask MG and they'll probably tell you the same thing, few reports of problems. They are lying or hiding things, they look up records of actual warranty repairs or priblem s actually reported and go with that.
Information talked about in forums do not count.if you fix something more than a small insignificant item, report it to MG directly, just takes an email.
There is a reason why things like startus interrupts go unfixed year after year. Call MG and ask about startus interruptus and they'll tell you it isn't a problem being reported often.
When you fail to report problems, you're contributing to it remaining a problem.
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When you fail to report problems, you're contributing to it remaining a problem.
I reported a problem to the Piaggio person in charge of the Stelvio rear suspender recall (when I asked if he could intervene to get parts to my dealer). He was able to get an instant response to the suspender recall, but totally ignored my Aux lamp fuse question/comments/etc. He did comment on my Christmas photo with the Stelvio in it. I tried, but ultimately failed to get that resolved.
AF1 knows of the same fuse issue...as I sell them the fuse kits.
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Yes, reporting a problem doesn't mean it will get fixed but not reporting it doesn't start a record of liability.
When reporting a problem, always in writing, phone calls are worthless, no one will ever admit to taking the call.
No one expects MG to address every reported problem but it can help when it comes time for larger issues to be addressed. How many times have owners of vehicles experienced problems with a particular model but the maker says they are unaware of a significant number of reports? It is true because the DIYers rarely report an issue to the maker but will post about it in some forum. That is worthless other than to make sure every other DIYer knows about it.
If every flat tappet 8V owner was contacting MG there would probably be a better response to this issue.
MG is not a philanthropy where a small group of craftsmen are toiling to make exclusive motorcycles for connoisseurs.
Pete has done a great service for everyone on this, from describing the problem to detailing the solution and how to implement it. It is only right that everyone who experiences the failure also report back to MG with a demand to recover all labor costs associated with it including any inspections.
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No probably about it. Its bad news for any flat tappet 8V owner. Better have it looked at. Just started the roller change out today on my late year 2012 with 16K on and no indications of any issues what so ever. This is what I found this morning on the left side. If ya got one better have it looked at or dig in yourself.
Many thanks to Pete for the how to do it posts.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/20150921_140910_zpsx3pcqhql.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/20150921_140910_zpsx3pcqhql.jpg.html)
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I read about delivery problems of the kits in europe, delivery set for week 45.
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No probably about it. Its bad news for any flat tappet 8V owner. Better have it looked at. Just started the roller change out today on my late year 2012 with 16K on and no indications of any issues what so ever. This is what I found this morning on the left side. If ya got one better have it looked at or dig in yourself.
Many thanks to Pete for the how to do it posts.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/20150921_140910_zpsx3pcqhql.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/20150921_140910_zpsx3pcqhql.jpg.html)
Mind posting the manufacture date? Since you say late 2012 and the serial number range indicates mid 2012 for the change over it might help others validate when the roller change over really happened. Bikes can sit a while in inventory.
It will be helpful to know if any 2013 models also had flat tappets. Manufacture dates might define the change over better than info already posted.
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I've currently got the full trifecta in my shop waiting for bits, a Griso, a Stelvio and a Norge. All I need is a Sport 1200 and I'll have the quaddie! The poxy Griso has been sitting there since July! Grrrrrrrr.
Pete
PS Paul, I'll grab the map numbers this morning.
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Mind posting the manufacture date? Since you say late 2012 and the serial number range indicates mid 2012 for the change over it might help others validate when the roller change over really happened. Bikes can sit a while in inventory.
It will be helpful to know if any 2013 models also had flat tappets. Manufacture dates might define the change over better than info already posted.
No problem. With the bike apart for the change out it was easy to check the manufacture date. 2-2012 so I am assuming that even though I bought the bike in October of 2012 it was one of those that had been sitting in inventory for several months. Clearly well before the mid year change over that is presently felt to be case. Just luck of the draw for 2012 bikes. It still steams me that bikes were being sold that were destined to fail in far to short a time to be called reasonable but at least the fix is on now.
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Guys, there's so much stuff in this thread I don't understand. Can I get a tl;dr on this please: 2016 V7 Stone 2, do I need to worry? Should I preemptively do anything now? I have just under 900 miles on it; would it show enough in an inspection to get the ball rolling for a warranty repair, but with enough time to put it back together and continue riding in the mean time (yes, I am attempting to have it both ways here)?
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Guys, there's so much stuff in this thread I don't understand. Can I get a tl;dr on this please: 2016 V7 Stone 2, do I need to worry? Should I preemptively do anything now? I have just under 900 miles on it; would it show enough in an inspection to get the ball rolling for a warranty repair, but with enough time to put it back together and continue riding in the mean time (yes, I am attempting to have it both ways here)?
ARRRGH!
NO, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY! DONT GET YOUR PANTIES IN A WAD! YOUR BIKE IS A SMALLBLOCK AND NOTHING RELATED TO THIS ISSUE HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BIKE!
What is the word that rhymes with 'Duck'?
Pete
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I like that it's pink. Tickles the eyes
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I like that it's pink. Tickles the eyes
:evil: :thumb: :laugh:
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Guys, there's so much stuff in this thread I don't understand. Can I get a tl;dr on this please: 2016 V7 Stone 2, do I need to worry? Should I preemptively do anything now? I have just under 900 miles on it; would it show enough in an inspection to get the ball rolling for a warranty repair, but with enough time to put it back together and continue riding in the mean time (yes, I am attempting to have it both ways here)?
Dude... if you had 8 valves in that thing everybody would want it. :boozing:
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ARRRGH!
NO, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY!
What is the word that rhymes with 'Duck'?
Pete
Hey, Pete - it does say 'New Goose' next to his name! He probably doesn't have the terminologies memorized yet; by the time his status is upgraded, he'll know them...
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He's new to MG. Even those who have had MGs for a while say 4 valve when referring to the 8V bikes as they mean 4 valves per side. Then you get a bike like the V7 and all bets are off for the newcomer.
A V65 has a very different displacement depending if it is a V65 Honda or MG V65. New to MG folks can understandably be confused at times.
I woke up screaming and then realized it was Pete yelling from down under, in pink of all things. :grin:
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Dude... if you had 8 valves in that thing everybody would want it. :boozing:
Count me in.
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so is my Eldo OK ----
checking to see what color Pete uses next......
Mark
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so is my Eldo OK ----
checking to see what color Pete uses next......
Mark
Chrome Bores!! No, it's NOT OK! :cool:
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Now all I want to know is how to get 8 valves on my motor, and then go through the rollerballering thing people are talking about here. :whip2: Frankenguzzi will happen!
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then go through the rollerballering thing
"Johnathon, Jonathon, Johnathon" :evil:
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On Mark's bike and all, as far as I can remember, others I've done it was the exhausts rather than the inlets that let go first. As far as additives are concerned ZDDP may in fact be counter productive with DLC.
Yup, it's a PITA but that's the thing about using the scientific method of analysis, you always have to strive to prove yourself wrong and allow your findings to be peer reviewed.
Pete
Pete, still trying to digest information and prolong what looks to be the inevitable (rollers).
Ready for my first oil change / valve check and remember your statement earlier about ZDDP catching my attention.
Can you expound on your take on this?
I think that my limited searching on the subject mentions Hydrogen-Free DLC Coating at issue with ZDDP.
Has the 8v Flat tappet a Hydrogen-Free DLC Coating?
Thank you for your service to this board and it's members.
michael
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ARRRGH!
NO, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY! DONT GET YOUR PANTIES IN A WAD! YOUR BIKE IS A SMALLBLOCK AND NOTHING RELATED TO THIS ISSUE HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BIKE!
What is the word that rhymes with 'Duck'?
Pete
I really needed a giggle today .... :popcorn: Any other non 8v big block Guzzi owners wanting a second opinion??? Any???
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It is perfectly possible to rollerise any 8V with flat tappets.
If the DLC on a flat tappet bike has started to fail / has failed prior to rollerisation (new word??) is the DLC floating about in the oil a problem or does it just get filtered out by the oil filter
I only ask as I'm in the market for a new bike and the budget puts me right in the problem years . So I wondering if I need look for a good 4V or chance the 8V with the knowledge that it can be fixed with a roller kit even if the DLC has already failed.
Cheers
PS am I right in assuming that come what may the DLC WILL fail at some pooint?
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PS am I right in assuming that come what may the DLC WILL fail at some point?
It's sort of like the two kinds of motorcycles - those that have gone down, and...
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If the DLC on a flat tappet bike has started to fail / has failed prior to rollerisation (new word??) is the DLC floating about in the oil a problem or does it just get filtered out by the oil filter
I only ask as I'm in the market for a new bike and the budget puts me right in the problem years . So I wondering if I need look for a good 4V or chance the 8V with the knowledge that it can be fixed with a roller kit even if the DLC has already failed.
Cheers
PS am I right in assuming that come what may the DLC WILL fail at some pooint?
If you look around you can probably find a roller bike for the ballpark price if the flat tappet one. That might change as time goes on and more buyers know to look for the update but until then, the price of a late 2012 on up should be not much greater if any than an early 2012/or 11.
There have been some mighty fine roller model bikes for sale and they were going for very reasonable prices.
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It's sort of like the two kinds of motorcycles - those that have gone down, and...
OH GOOD :shocked:
Still I saw some new flat tappets on "a well know auction site" over here from a reputable dealer's online shop for replacement tappets at £95 each (free P&P which is nice :bow:)
Am I right in saying that I'd need 8 of these for a complete change out which is circa £800 - or more than a roller kit would be?
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OH GOOD :shocked:
Still I saw some new flat tappets on "a well know auction site" over here from a reputable dealer's online shop for replacement tappets at �95 each (free P&P which is nice :bow:)
Am I right in saying that I'd need 8 of these for a complete change out which is circa �800 - or more than a roller kit would be?
No. Look, it's not difficult. Replacing the flat tappets with another set of same won't fix the problem. If the bike has been poorly maintained or is from a damp, cool, climate the chances of failure are much greater/liable to occur earlier.
Any shop that would be willing to replace a set of failed tappets with new ones, (You need four, not eight.) especially if they didn't replace the cams, is obviously run by cretins.
The roller system has been in service now for nearly three years. Unlike the previous flat system there have been no widely reported failures, I haven't heard of a single one, so why would anybody but a person bordering on the pathologically moronic now decide it would be a good idea to throw good money after bad and tart up their failure prone flatty top end with a bunch of obsolete parts purchased by desperate, dishonest vendors on the Bay of Fleas!
Look, if you really want to tilt quixotically at this windmill of obstinate denial I have at least four, probably more, brand new flat tappets in my stock of spares. They cost me a not inconsiderable sum of money and some of their stablemates were used for destruction testing trying to get to the bottom of the problem. They're yours, (As long ad you promise not to put them on the Bay of Fleas!) for nothing. Just give whatever the postage costs to your oubliette of misery to Medicienes Sans Frontiers.
Just promise me one thing. If they do go udders skywards and trash your engine? Don't blame me. OK!
Pete
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Cheers Pete
I wasn't thinking of buying them, more a comment that whoever did would waste a considerable amount of money that would be better spent on rollerising the bike
I don't have an 8v bike at the moment and I trying to make sure I don't saddle myself with a mountain of pain when I upgrade shortly.
Simplistically it appears that I either go for a 4v Breva/Norge or skip straight to an 8v built post 2012/13 - sheer performance isn't an issue to me
If I get anything in between it looks like I could have a bike that may or may not loose the DLC especially as I live in a cool damp climate :wink:
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There is no cure for flattus tappetus shittis other than rollerus goodus fixxus. Throwing good flats in after bad ones resembles the Einstein cliche:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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At least Guzzi haven't been fiddling their emission tests, hopefully.
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Cheers Pete
I wasn't thinking of buying them, more a comment that whoever did would waste a considerable amount of money that would be better spent on rollerising the bike
I don't have an 8v bike at the moment and I trying to make sure I don't saddle myself with a mountain of pain when I upgrade shortly.
Simplistically it appears that I either go for a 4v Breva/Norge or skip straight to an 8v built post 2012/13 - sheer performance isn't an issue to me
If I get anything in between it looks like I could have a bike that may or may not loose the DLC especially as I live in a cool damp climate :wink:
No, I realised that. I just mourn the fact that since ten years ago this site has changed from being a place where people shared ideas and knowledge to being one where point scoring, an attitude of self righteousness and an absolute lack of humour has become the norm.
Trolling and a FUCKLOAD of ignorance is, unfortunately becoming the norm on WG, just look at the names that are missing! Nobody is forced to be here.
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:thumb:
The is one thing I'd appreciate your input on though.
If I find an early 8V and the seller says tappets are mullered but knocks a grand off the price to get it rollerised
Would that be a good/reasonable bike to take on or will the DLC that's lifted off and now sloshing about in the oil do damage elsewhere in the engine that effectively trashes the engine
Cheers
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Depends how far it's gone. How willing are you to take the risk?
Me? I'd look at a whole lot of things through a prism of experience and then listen carefully to what the vendor said. I'd buy a Flattie in a heartbeat if it had a good history but I'd also expect to rollerise it and build it into the price.
You seem to be asking me for some sort of concrete guarantee as to what is a good buy! How the hell would I know? I'm just some other jerk on the Internet!
Pete
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:thumb:
The is one thing I'd appreciate your input on though.
If I find an early 8V and the seller says tappets are mullered but knocks a grand off the price to get it rollerised
Would that be a good/reasonable bike to take on or will the DLC that's lifted off and now sloshing about in the oil do damage elsewhere in the engine that effectively trashes the engine
Cheers
This is one of the sticking points for me buying a used flat tappet 8v. I can easily get the roller conversion done at Twiggers Motorcycles but it is very difficult to know what state the motor is in when you buy it. Most dealers are in denial about the problem so they won't be much help and private sellers are hardly likely to have the cams exposed for inspection when you come to look at the bike. I have sadly come to the conclusion it is best to avoid a flat tappet bike altogether unless the price is that cheap it is worth the hassle.
Hopefully there will be enough roller bikes coming on the used market and the people in the know will easily avoid buying a bad un.
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Depends how far it's gone. How willing are you to take the risk?
Me? I'd look at a whole lot of things through a prism of experience and then listen carefully to what the vendor said. I'd buy a Flattie in a heartbeat if it had a good history but I'd also expect to rollerise it and build it into the price.
You seem to be asking me for some sort of concrete guarantee as to what is a good buy! How the hell would I know? I'm just some other jerk on the Internet!
Pete
But a well informed jerk IMO :bow: :bow:
However, you answered the question
You have the skill and knowledge to make the call whether to buy or not.
I don't!!
So I'll take the simple option and go for a 4V or later 8V
Thanks for the help :thumb:
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Less of the :bow: if you want to seriously give me the screaming shits? That's the way to do it.
Apart from that your decision seems eminently sensible. I can perfectly understand a layman's reluctance to want to roll the dice on a Flattie.
Pete
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:grin: :grin: :grin:
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There is no cure for flattus tappetus shittis other than rollerus goodus fixxus. Throwing good flats in after bad ones resembles the Einstein cliche:
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Ever since Miss (we had those back in the day) Crick, my 9th-grade Latin teacher sent me to the principal's office for passing a dirty note (in Latin, no less) to the cute little blonde in front of me, I get little spasms when I read even fractured versions. :rolleyes:
I will not ride my beloved Griso and it is awaiting shipment in early November to Rose Farm Classics for the rollerus goodus fixxus.
No, I realised that. I just mourn the fact that since ten years ago this site has changed from being a place where people shared ideas and knowledge to being one where point scoring, an attitude of self righteousness and an absolute lack of humour has become the norm.
Trolling and a FUCKLOAD of ignorance is, unfortunately becoming the norm on WG, just look at the names that are missing! Nobody is forced to be here.
Guilty of incurable ignorance, Your Honor, but hoping not so of self righteousness or lack of humor. Well, OK, at least not the latter. :laugh:
Many thanks,Pete, for what you and beetle bring here and, whether you like it or not, here's another :bow:
OBTW, the "assistant principal in charge of discipline" taught me a great lesson in discretion, another casualty of our present, often lamentable times. He read the note from Ms. Crick along with mine, told me to bend over, lightly touched my butt with the "Board of Education," and told me to be more careful in passing notes. Now there's a guy who deserved a :bow:.
Bill
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I love this thread. :grin:
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Depends how far it's gone. How willing are you to take the risk?
Me? I'd look at a whole lot of things through a prism of experience and then listen carefully to what the vendor said. I'd buy a Flattie in a heartbeat if it had a good history but I'd also expect to rollerise it and build it into the price.
You seem to be asking me for some sort of concrete guarantee as to what is a good buy! How the hell would I know? I'm just some other jerk on the Internet!
Pete
Sorry Pete, you aren't just some jerk on the Internet, like it or not, you've contributed to the satisfaction and understanding of things MG for a lot of people and like people appointed to things by others, people value your input. That you display humility and on some occasions are humble when it comes the questions like that only serves to reinforce the perception.
Just the way it is. Just look around at all the self serving greedy f'ers out there that got elected to something, bought their way there or managed to run some company for the seemingly singular purpose of screwing others and maybe you can appreciate why people ask you the questions they do.
They don't ask because they are ignorant fools, they ask because they choose to be otherwise.
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OBTW, the "assistant principal in charge of discipline" taught me a great lesson in discretion, another casualty of our present, often lamentable times. He read the note from Ms. Crick along with mine, told me to bend over, lightly touched my butt with the "Board of Education," and told me to be more careful in passing notes. Now there's a guy who deserved a :bow:.
Tee hee! :laugh:
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Chalk up another one for rollerization. At 23K miles I decided to install the "A" kit. It seems foolish to wait for the tappets to go TU and hope you catch it before too much metal has circulated through the engine. The kit was $1K and labor $.4K. Heck, I even think it's a bit quieter now! Before, my bike sounded like a can full of rocks...now, not so much.
Peter Y.
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Chalk up another one for rollerization. At 23K miles I decided to install the "A" kit. It seems foolish to wait for the tappets to go TU and hope you catch it before too much metal has circulated through the engine. The kit was $1K and labor $.4K. Heck, I even think it's a bit quieter now! Before, my bike sounded like a can full of rocks...now, not so much.
Peter Y.
I assume that your flat tappets looked perfect, else you could have lobbied Guzzi for rollers instead of throwing $1K for the kit ... ?
Lannis
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I assume that your flat tappets looked perfect, else you could have lobbied Guzzi for rollers instead of throwing $1K for the kit ... ?
Lannis
Good question, Lannis. Peter, could you confirm the condition of your flat tappets at 23k? Thanks!
Bob
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Chalk up another one for rollerization. At 23K miles I decided to install the "A" kit. It seems foolish to wait for the tappets to go TU and hope you catch it before too much metal has circulated through the engine...
That was my motivation. Better get it done, move on and enjoy the peace of mind!
But your case is very interesting because I believe you had the oil analysed at every oil change. How did the tappets look?
John
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Gents, I decided to install the kit before anything went south. Every oil analysis has been good but I started to think that 6K miles between oil changes could mean that I could have 5K miles with crap floating through my engine. Waiting until the analysis showed a problem, or excess clearance on the valves, either way I'd be closing the gate after the horse was out of the barn...so to speak. I had Redline order the kit. They installed everything and gave me the old parts. I just looked at the parts and can see one lobe of the cam that is clearly burned. The tappets themselves seem to be held in place, I thought by an allen screw, but that's not working for me. It would not surprise me to find that one of the tappets is wearing, as the cam indicates. Bottom line, the problem is real. I just caught it at the very earliest stage. BTW, I have been using 10W60 most of the time and the bike is ridden for long trips, not short commutes.
Peter Y.
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Well, I thought about the tappet removal issue and realized that I could just remove the cam and the tappet would fall out into my hand. Done. Here's what I found:
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/12-Stelvio-NTX/i-zH6z2zJ/0/M/DSCF1885-M.jpg)
so it's clear to me that my tappets were going south. Word for the wise.
Peter Y.
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Gents, I decided to install the kit before anything went south. Every oil analysis has been good but I started to think that 6K miles between oil changes could mean that I could have 5K miles with crap floating through my engine. Waiting until the analysis showed a problem, or excess clearance on the valves, either way I'd be closing the gate after the horse was out of the barn...so to speak. I had Redline order the kit. They installed everything and gave me the old parts. I just looked at the parts and can see one lobe of the cam that is clearly burned. The tappets themselves seem to be held in place, I thought by an allen screw, but that's not working for me. It would not surprise me to find that one of the tappets is wearing, as the cam indicates. Bottom line, the problem is real. I just caught it at the very earliest stage. BTW, I have been using 10W60 most of the time and the bike is ridden for long trips, not short commutes.
Peter Y.
Thank you, Peter .... that's good information. Don't understand your reference to 'held in place by allen screws', but that is unimportant to me. Sounds like using good (specified) oil, and not using the bike as a short-run commuter, kept things together for better than 20k miles. I would probably have done exactly what you've done ..... frequent oil analysis, and ultimately biting the bullet and either having Piaggio or me paying for the kit, and having the rollers installed.
My Griso 8vSE was ridden and maintained much the same as your bike.
Bob
UPDATE: Doesn't look like the DLC (diamond like carbon) coating held up well on your tappets.
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Bob, I was just looking at the assembly that holds the cams and tappets. There are holes that appear to be made for an allen wrench to secure the tappets. I guess they are just lubrication holes. At any rate, you have to drop the cam and the lifters fall out. Checking the lifters for wear will entail 100% of the labor of doing the replacement. It's dumb to pull everything apart and not do the swap...in my humble opinion.
Peter Y.
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Bob, I was just looking at the assembly that holds the cams and tappets. There are holes that appear to be made for an allen wrench to secure the tappets. I guess they are just lubrication holes. At any rate, you have to drop the cam and the lifters fall out. Checking the lifters for wear will entail 100% of the labor of doing the replacement. It's dumb to pull everything apart and not do the swap...in my humble opinion.
Peter Y.
The way I understand it, if the tappets are damaged and losing their surface, Piaggio is supposed to GIVE you the roller kit.
Did you just decide to bag that and not put up with the Piaggio hassle? I think I'd put up with a bit of delay and hassle for $1,000 .... ?
My plan is to have the dealer pull mine and get the deal from Piaggio .... ?
Lannis
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Lannis, I understand your position on this. The labor to pull the parts and look at the tappets would be about $400 (it was in my case). If the tappets are bad you have the dealer put in a claim for the kit. If not you put everything back and hope for the best. In 10K miles do it all again. Given that this is not turning out to be a case of owner misuse, odd climate, or bad oil it seems that the question is not 'if' but 'when'. You feel lucky?
I like the bike so eating $1K was a tough meal to swallow but I can't think of a bike I like better. I'm still hoping that Piaggio will pay for the kit. When I had a Multistrada we had lots of problems with the gas tanks swelling. In the end there was a class action suite that cost Ducati, or the tank supplier, a bunch. The lawyers got rich and the owners got a new tank. I hope Piaggio got the message. It would appear that this problem extends to all 8V engines sold in the US. It's expensive to comp a $1K assembly to every 8V owner but when you get some lawyers involved the bottom line will be much worse.
To answer your question, yes, I decided to do the replacement no matter what. Now I see that my tappets were in the early stages of going to shit.
Peter Y.
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Lannis, I understand your position on this. The labor to pull the parts and look at the tappets would be about $400 (it was in my case). If the tappets are bad you have the dealer put in a claim for the kit. If not you put everything back and hope for the best. In 10K miles do it all again. Given that this is not turning out to be a case of owner misuse, odd climate, or bad oil it seems that the question is not 'if' but 'when'. You feel lucky?
I like the bike so eating $1K was a tough meal to swallow but I can't think of a bike I like better. I'm still hoping that Piaggio will pay for the kit. When I had a Multistrada we had lots of problems with the gas tanks swelling. In the end there was a class action suite that cost Ducati, or the tank supplier, a bunch. The lawyers got rich and the owners got a new tank. I hope Piaggio got the message. It would appear that this problem extends to all 8V engines sold in the US. It's expensive to comp a $1K assembly to every 8V owner but when you get some lawyers involved the bottom line will be much worse.
To answer your question, yes, I decided to do the replacement no matter what. Now I see that my tappets were in the early stages of going to shit.
Peter Y.
Peter, I went the down the same road and this is what I found at 16k miles.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/20150921_140910_zpsx3pcqhql.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/20150921_140910_zpsx3pcqhql.jpg.html)
Seems to be the typical situation for bikes that have some miles on and are not showing any of the "symptoms" that indicate failure has taken place. Like you said, best be looking if you are still running flats.
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Well, I thought about the tappet removal issue and realized that I could just remove the cam and the tappet would fall out into my hand. Done. Here's what I found:
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/12-Stelvio-NTX/i-zH6z2zJ/0/M/DSCF1885-M.jpg)
so it's clear to me that my tappets were going south. Word for the wise.
Peter Y.
Peter, my Stelvio had 22,000km when I decided to have mine done. Yours has covered more miles than mine and I would say the wear looks to be a bit higher in the same relation. That would suggest to me that the DLC is slowly wearing off, from day 1. That would also suggests that oil analysis doesn't pick it up. Hopefully because the filter takes the particles out of circulation.
John
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The way I understand it, if the tappets are damaged and losing their surface, Piaggio is supposed to GIVE you the roller kit.
Did you just decide to bag that and not put up with the Piaggio hassle? I think I'd put up with a bit of delay and hassle for $1,000 .... ?
My plan is to have the dealer pull mine and get the deal from Piaggio .... ?
Lannis
The replacement scheme applies to bikes which have cam wear and a full service history regardless of the bike's age.
The dealer plays an important role in the process because if he is on your side certain criteria can be er.. ignored.
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This morning I pulled out the flats from my other head just to see if the DLC wear was consistent (one head has about 5K more miles than the other, dropped a valve under warranty and was replaced). Now I can show all four flats...clear wear on all of them. Oddly enough the wear is not the same. On each head one tappet shows much more wear than the other. I'm guessing there is more spring pressure on one pair of valves than on the other due to the shims that Pete Roper has mentioned in the past.
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/12-Stelvio-NTX/i-LtFW4qh/0/M/4flats-M.jpg)
Peter Y.
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If all were perfect, what is a used tappet SUPPOSED to look like?
Joe
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If all were perfect, what is a used tappet SUPPOSED to look like?
Joe
Another good question! Nothing's going to get past THIS group .... ! :laugh:
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I knew it...I just knew it. When Mandello quit the hydros, this all started.
Ralph
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If all were perfect, what is a used tappet SUPPOSED to look like?
Joe
Equal black. They start shiny like a mirror black.
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Equal black. They start shiny like a mirror black.
Does it actually flake off or is it ground off into very a very find dust type effect?
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The DLC is a very thin coating. As I drag a fingernail across the tappet I cannot feel a ridge between DLC and metal. It looks like the coating initially comes off as chips or flakes but later is ground off as it gets closer to the perimeter of the tappet. Then it's simply metal to metal contact so the next step is pure metal being worn away.
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Does it actually flake off or is it ground off into very a very find dust type effect?
If you look at the pics I posted a while back taken by an electron microscope you can clearly see the pattern of disintegration. The surface crazes and then flakes off. Once the DLC is work off it goes to hell in a handbasket very, very quickly.
Pete
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This morning I pulled out the flats from my other head just to see if the DLC wear was consistent (one head has about 5K more miles than the other, dropped a valve under warranty and was replaced). Now I can show all four flats...clear wear on all of them. Oddly enough the wear is not the same. On each head one tappet shows much more wear than the other. I'm guessing there is more spring pressure on one pair of valves than on the other due to the shims that Pete Roper has mentioned in the past.
Peter Y.
I think this is a factor certainly. Going back through the failures I've experienced in the last year there seems to be a pattern of bikes needing the 'C' kit, (Not originally fitted with shims.) tending to have more damage to the exhaust tappets whereas those requiring an 'A' or 'B' kit and already fitted with shims seem to show greater wear on the inlets. I can't confirm that with absolute certainty as I didn't record each kit for each failure but the history of pics I took and kits I've fitted seems to bear this out.
Good catch.
Pete
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I think this is a factor certainly. Going back through the failures I've experienced in the last year there seems to be a pattern of bikes needing the 'C' kit, (Not originally fitted with shims.) tending to have more damage to the exhaust tappets whereas those requiring an 'A' or 'B' kit and already fitted with shims seem to show greater wear on the inlets. I can't confirm that with absolute certainty as I didn't record each kit for each failure but the history of pics I took and kits I've fitted seems to bear this out.
Good catch.
Pete
My bike was an A Kit and showed the greater wear by far on the inlets. I was somewhat surprised by this at the time due to having read your comments about the C Kit bikes you had worked on.