Author Topic: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.  (Read 70741 times)

Vasco DG

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Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« on: September 09, 2015, 02:12:16 AM »
Got round to rollerising Mark's bike yesterday.





30,000 ish km. not good. No real signs but Mark not only updates his maps but was also running his closed loop interpretive system which would of masked the wear.

Unfortunately this tends to make me believe that after what I've seen and researched in the last year all flat tappet motors are probably compromised. Certainly climate and running conditions along with poor service are major contributors but it looks like the problem is universal.

OK, what to do? Well, to pull the camboxes and inspect takes about two hours. That will cost you whatever your shop's hourly rate is. If the tappets are found to be compromised then a warranty claim can be put in train. I would certainly recommend that anybody with a flat tappet bike that is still within the two year warranty period pay for the inspection as it will then be fully covered if there is found to be anything wrong. Outside of that period? Well, it's up to you but if you do wait until something happens and you don't catch it in time you may well be up for a lot more than the labour for a kit install. I'd still pay for the inspection.

Apart from C and D kit bikes which will need the heads off to shim the valve springs the actual install shouldn't cost a lot. Obviously it will depend on what model, a Norge for instance will cost more than a Griso A and B kit bikes will be comparatively inexpensive if caught early. Rollerising Mark's G8 took about three hours, including remapping and TB balancing. A lot cheaper than waiting for frag to be fed through the whole engine.

Pete

Offline pete mcgee

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 02:19:08 AM »
Pete,
Any damage to the cams or just the followers in the photo?
I take it this is a continuation/extension to the last post on this.
Any mayo in the oil/ sump on this one?
Pete (no not the Bungendore one)


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Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2015, 02:24:17 AM »
Cams showing heat damage on the nose circle. Mayo in evidence in covers. S'bin a cold winter, even in Wagga! :laugh:

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2015, 02:59:21 AM »
Cams showing heat damage on the nose circle. Mayo in evidence in covers. S'bin a cold winter, even in Wagga! :laugh:

Pete

There was not a spot of Mayo under my valve covers, and there never has been. And 90% of my mileage are longer runs in reasonably warm and dry weather. With fresh 10w60 oil. And it still happened to me.

I'm no metallurgy expert, and I know you've seen a lot more of these failures than I have Pete, but to my simple mind it looks like either lubrication (missing ZDDP?? - although the AGIP 10-60 is pretty reasonable in that regard), too much pressure or lack of clearances. Maybe a too radical ramp up profile for a flat tappet? All I know for sure is that the damp environment / lack of maintenance does not apply in my situation.

Are the tappets with the higher wear inlet or exhaust?
John
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 03:02:45 AM by Xlratr »
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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2015, 02:59:21 AM »

Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2015, 03:04:39 AM »
On Mark's bike and all, as far as I can remember, others I've done it was the exhausts rather than the inlets that let go first. As far as additives are concerned ZDDP may in fact be counter productive with DLC.

Yup, it's a PITA but that's the thing about using the scientific method of analysis, you always have to strive to prove yourself wrong and allow your findings to be peer reviewed.

Pete

beetle

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 04:02:14 AM »
Cams:

Left




Right





Offline pete mcgee

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 04:22:02 AM »
Cams showing heat damage on the nose circle. Mayo in evidence in covers. S'bin a cold winter, even in Wagga! :laugh:

Pete

I never had a "warm" winter in Wagga.

What is the response from the factory regarding the wear issue, fit rollers or silence?
Pete (no not the Bungendore one)


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Offline Xlratr

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 04:30:29 AM »
Cams:

Left




Right




I always feel the need to stress my lack of qualifications in regard to this kind of stuff  :grin:, but what strikes me as interesting is the second scuff mark. It looks almost like the tappet lost contact on a small part of the lobe before impacting again. Is the valve ramp up to steep for a flat tappet set up?? Again, just speculating.

"Looks like it's been chewed up and spat out.
Perhaps it was a result of anxiety?"
 :wink:

John
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jlburgess

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 08:42:58 AM »
What a PITA.  When did it become so difficult to build a working cam and tappets?  It's not like the engine runs at 15k rpm.   :undecided:

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 08:58:39 AM »
What a PITA.  When did it become so difficult to build a working cam and tappets?  It's not like the engine runs at 15k rpm.   :undecided:

If anyone wants, I'll loan you my grenade valve caps..I (hopefully) don't need them any more on the Lario. <running and ducking>
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 09:03:23 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2015, 09:07:53 AM »
Got round to rollerising Mark's bike yesterday.


OK, what to do? Well, to pull the camboxes and inspect takes about two hours. That will cost you whatever your shop's hourly rate is. If the tappets are found to be compromised then a warranty claim can be put in train. I would certainly recommend that anybody with a flat tappet bike that is still within the two year warranty period pay for the inspection as it will then be fully covered if there is found to be anything wrong. Outside of that period? Well, it's up to you but if you do wait until something happens and you don't catch it in time you may well be up for a lot more than the labour for a kit install. I'd still pay for the inspection.


Pete

And if the inspection shows that the tappets and cam are NOT grenaded yet?

You're still Donald Ducked, because now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi ....  After all this, you can never trust that your bike will make a trip without coming apart.

All this wonderful modern mo' bettah high tech ECU and Adjustable Maps and Lambda Sensors and Fuel Injection and Eight Valves and 100+ horsepower and all this "These bikes are SO much better than the antique stone age roundfins" and "Just ride them and don't f****ng worry so much" .... all that modern crap is useless if the cams won't bump the valves open.... it's like building better deck chairs on the Titanic because the parts that Triumph figured out how to make right in 1937 don't work any more ....

Screw it, I'll shut up now.    I gave "I'm not the problem any more" a good try. 

Lannis
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Bill Hagan

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 09:22:32 AM »

****

OK, what to do? Well, to pull the camboxes and inspect takes about two hours. That will cost you whatever your shop's hourly rate is. If the tappets are found to be compromised then a warranty claim can be put in train. I would certainly recommend that anybody with a flat tappet bike that is still within the two year warranty period pay for the inspection as it will then be fully covered if there is found to be anything wrong. Outside of that period? Well, it's up to you but if you do wait until something happens and you don't catch it in time you may well be up for a lot more than the labour for a kit install. I'd still pay for the inspection.

Apart from C and D kit bikes which will need the heads off to shim the valve springs the actual install shouldn't cost a lot. Obviously it will depend on what model, a Norge for instance will cost more than a Griso A and B kit bikes will be comparatively inexpensive if caught early. Rollerising Mark's G8 took about three hours, including remapping and TB balancing. A lot cheaper than waiting for frag to be fed through the whole engine.

Pete

And if the inspection shows that the tappets and cam are NOT grenaded yet?

You're still Donald Ducked, because now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi .... 

****

Screw it, I'll shut up now.    I gave "I'm not the problem any more" a good try. 

Lannis

OK, I am no doubt missing something, but why do you read what Pete posted as a preventive measure as meaning "now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi ...."

Bill (who also has a hangover from Mandello mead)

 

Offline Lannis

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 10:29:47 AM »
OK, I am no doubt missing something, but why do you read what Pete posted as a preventive measure as meaning "now YOU have to pay for the upgrade kit. not Guzzi ...."

Bill (who also has a hangover from Mandello mead)

Well, I said I'd hush but you're right, if I wasn't clear I should explain myself.   

I'm not ragging on Pete specifically, I'm ragging on Guzzi for paying too much attention to designing super-zoot extraneous BS to "keep up with the Joneses" and forgetting how motorcycles work.

Pete said "Take your camboxes apart and see what's in there.   If the tappets are buggered then you can start the warranty process"

That's all well and good, but it leaves us hanging halfway.   What if the tappets AREN'T buggered?    That's WORSE, because you still have to replace them but there's no warranty process involved, it's all on the poor trusting owner.   

The whole purpose of Pete's post was to provide data to show that (probably) nobody's 8-valve is going to get out of this alive; if it's buggered up you pay to install and Guzzi pays for the parts.   If it's NOT buggered up, you pay to install AND you pay for the parts.   If I'd bought a Ural instead of a Stelvio I'd have had the same trouble, but would have paid $6,000 less for the bike, money that I could use to build the bike properly ....

I was riding my BSA yesterday.   I have absolutely no fear that it's going to eat its tappets .....

Now, really, I've beotched enough on 4 threads on this subject.   I'll move on.   But thanks for the sanity check, sometimes I need them when it comes to bikes ....   :thumb:

Lannis
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:33:23 AM by Lannis »
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2015, 10:34:30 AM »
I'm still wondering why this tappet problem seems to only happen on Stelvios.  It's the same 8V engine that is used in the Norge and Griso...apart from the huge oil cooler on the NTX.  Can anyone point out any other differences?  Scratching my head on this one.

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2015, 10:39:21 AM »
I'm still wondering why this tappet problem seems to only happen on Stelvios.  It's the same 8V engine that is used in the Norge and Griso...apart from the huge oil cooler on the NTX.  Can anyone point out any other differences?  Scratching my head on this one.

Peter Y.

It's happening on all the 8V flat tappet engines.   I've just been particularly vocal about it because my Stelvio is in the affected population .... so it may seem like they're the only ones.

I think most of the pictorial examples have been Grisos ....

I keep saying I'll move on.   Must ... get ... a .... grip ....

Lannis
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Offline lucian

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2015, 11:21:16 AM »
A buddy I ride with toasted his abs on his bmw gs. They wanted 3400 us dollars to fix it. So pick your poison. He ditched the gs for a kawi concourse and I don't blame him. But ditch a Griso because of a cam tappet swap? I don't think so ,especially when it's a relatively easy job. Anyone remotely handy with simple tools and a little research can do it, I'm living proof. Hat's off to Vasco for telling us like it is, If Mg only had more dealers like him. I know of few motor cycles that will withstand the type of punishment I daily place on my Griso, without some consequences. Part of the game if you ask me.

Online PeteS

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2015, 11:27:42 AM »
Ok, for those of us still riding around on 40 year old relics, are there 8V bikes that don't have flat tappets? If so what years? I would like to get a newer Guzzi but would like to know which ones to avoid.

Pete

Offline Kev m

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2015, 11:32:33 AM »
Ok, for those of us still riding around on 40 year old relics, are there 8V bikes that don't have flat tappets? If so what years? I would like to get a newer Guzzi but would like to know which ones to avoid.

Pete

Actually this is a good question.

I've been only half paying attention to these developments because I assumed they don't effect me.

Are we right that we're only talking about 8V Big Block CARCS that didn't come with rollers?

And what does come with rollers now? Most/all of the CARCS now? And the Cali?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 11:44:23 AM by Kev m »
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Offline Peter from Sch'dy

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2015, 11:40:14 AM »
There's no guaranty the rollers will last either, is there? This is what, the third version of the fix? Also, when people change their maps due to poor running one of the "improvements" noted is how much cooler the motor runs...hmmm..

Really happy to have the old fashion BB2V,
Peter

Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2015, 12:10:01 PM »
Mid 2012 all production swapped to roller top end. That is over three years ago and I haven't heard of a roller failure yet. That won't of course stop people wishing ill on anything built after 1980.

It would be a lot easier for me and anybody else who actually cares about Guzzi to just shut up and say nothing. I knew when I said what I did that I'd be able to hear the wailing and rending of garments from some people in the northern hemisphere from here. What both amuses me and pisses me off is that while this is by no means a minor issue it is no different to ones affecting many other manufacturers, it's just that there seems to be a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic. Honda had shocking problems with cams for over a decade. Honda are still going strong. That's just one very closely paralleled example.

At the end of the day I just want people aware of a potential problem. I care not a jot what people say or do about it. I personally think the 8V is a fantastic engine and while this problem is a pisser and I don't think the company management is addressing the problem in a particularly ethical way it's certainly not going to put me off riding and owning the most enjoyable motorcycle I've ever had the good fortune to fling a leg over. You want to shoot the messenger? Go ahead. Strikes me a particularly foolish though.

Pete


Offline Kev m

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2015, 12:16:27 PM »
So CARC 8V motors through about 2012 (before the addition of rollers).

Noted. Thanks.
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Bill Hagan

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2015, 12:23:25 PM »
Mid 2012 all production swapped to roller top end. That is over three years ago and I haven't heard of a roller failure yet. That won't of course stop people wishing ill on anything built after 1980.

It would be a lot easier for me and anybody else who actually cares about Guzzi to just shut up and say nothing. I knew when I said what I did that I'd be able to hear the wailing and rending of garments from some people in the northern hemisphere from here. What both amuses me and pisses me off is that while this is by no means a minor issue it is no different to ones affecting many other manufacturers, it's just that there seems to be a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic. Honda had shocking problems with cams for over a decade. Honda are still going strong. That's just one very closely paralleled example.

At the end of the day I just want people aware of a potential problem. I care not a jot what people say or do about it. I personally think the 8V is a fantastic engine and while this problem is a pisser and I don't think the company management is addressing the problem in a particularly ethical way it's certainly not going to put me off riding and owning the most enjoyable motorcycle I've ever had the good fortune to fling a leg over. You want to shoot the messenger? Go ahead. Strikes me a particularly foolish though.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.

I appreciate your counsel in this as in so much else in Guzzidom.

To add a bit of related levity to all of this, I was reminded -- when i read your "a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic" -- of an event yesterday.

So, there I wuz.  Pitching to grandboys Ben (near 7) and Kiefer (4).  Ben is a gifted player and few would guess his age from the way he swings a bat, fields grounders, and pitches.  Pretty amazing, actually.

Anyway, we were both humoring Kiefer, but when he brazenly stole third, I felt obliged to teach him a lesson.  That led to me taking a nasty tumble, hitting hard enough to lie there a moment.  Ben walks up and asks, "Are you faking?"  "No," I replied; "Just old."  Ben added, "And fat."  Out of the mouths of babes.   :laugh:

But, tho a member of the general Guzzi (or mebbe just wildguzzi) demographic, suspect most of us here are very grateful for your expertise.  And, even more, that you share it as you do.

Thanks.

Bill
(Who nonetheless will still mutter about mendacious Mandellans while spurring his Griso (after it gets rollerized) past his competence.  :wink:)



Offline Stevex

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2015, 12:29:02 PM »
Quote
it's like building better deck chairs on the Titanic because the parts that Triumph figured out how to make right in 1937 don't work any more ....

Triumph made deck chairs...?

Offline pauldaytona

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2015, 12:41:44 PM »
Come on pete, two years ago there was no problem because bikes you had serviced didn't have a problem, and now Beetle has it, you tell all bikes are going to fail.

I thought along time ago that most will fail. The same as that not all v11 scura clutches will explode, but a most will 
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Offline swmckinley54

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2015, 12:44:10 PM »
My mid year 2012 Stelvio NTX now has 40K on the clock. It is getting ready to puke another clutch and now I read this. I am sure that if I have flat tappets I am pretty much screwed. I have come to the conclusion that owning a bike with character pretty much means you have got to work on the SOB all the time. I am ready for the just ride the bike experience..... and then change oil and tires....... and ride it some more.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2015, 12:50:07 PM »
My mid year 2012 Stelvio NTX now has 40K on the clock. It is getting ready to puke another clutch and now I read this. I am sure that if I have flat tappets I am pretty much screwed. I have come to the conclusion that owning a bike with character pretty much means you have got to work on the SOB all the time. I am ready for the just ride the bike experience..... and then change oil and tires....... and ride it some more.

Some of us obviously just have too much of the "Northern Hemisphere Needy Whiner" in us to appreciate the overall New Moto Guzzi Riding Experience.     Best to just suck it up and keep on shucking out the spare change ...   :angry:

Lannis
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Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2015, 12:57:38 PM »
While I and the two Mark's were loitering about rollerising Mark B's bike and Mark B was editing the Rollerised Mistral Lo-Pipe map on Mark S's bike, (Which is slowly easing away from Turd-dom.) we paused periodically to peer at and discuss his, and other, broken bits, (I now have quite a selection!).

Our guess, and it is just that, a guess, albeit an informed one, is that almost all flat tappet bikes over a few thousand Kms will exhibit identifiable wear. Certainly if you look at the pictures of many of the failed tappets it would seem that there is visible wear to the DLC, enough to affect the cam and the engine's breathing but it seems that the wear is not a devastating disaster until it reaches a critical 'Tipping point' after which it all goes to hell in a handbasket really quickly, (See Wayne's tappets for an example of some that have passed that point.)

This is the reason I suggest taking it to a shop before the failure becomes manifestly evident because I think there will be every chance that, like my bike and Mark B's the wear will be clearly evident but it won't of had a chance to cause serious damage.

As I said, pulling a cambox is no big deal. You can pull the left one without even taking the tank off on Griso's and Stelvios. (The right does require the tank to come off to access the tensioner reservoir plug.) I can have both camboxes off, inspected and back on if everything is OK in a couple of hours. There are a great many modern motorcycles where you can spend almost that long just getting to the valve covers! To me, if I wasn't doing the work myself, it would be a no-brainer to pay the couple of hours labour but I suppose having a little tantrum is so much more satisfying.

Just sayin'

Pete

PS. Paul, all I can do is report my own observations and the data I have collected. As I pointed out the whole point of using the scientific method of analysis is to constantly review ones findings and challenge them. Up until a little over a year ago I had no evidence to support the assertion that all 8V tappets were failure prone. Given the level of shrieking hysteria exhibited regularly by a lot of people when anything happens to their vehicles if I was to pay much attention to the vast majority of what people claim I'd be travelling everywhere in a horse and cart! :grin: Edit: two years ago I'd not had a single failure through my shop. This year I've had nine. I'm also very conversant with how poor a lot of servicing is, how cavalier some shops are about their approach to factory recommendations WRT both service and products used in servicing. All I can do is observe, record and report. Any recommendations I come up with are going to be by their very nature subjective.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 01:04:59 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline Peter from Sch'dy

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2015, 01:17:08 PM »
Mid 2012 all production swapped to roller top end. That is over three years ago and I haven't heard of a roller failure yet. That won't of course stop people wishing ill on anything built after 1980.

It would be a lot easier for me and anybody else who actually cares about Guzzi to just shut up and say nothing. I knew when I said what I did that I'd be able to hear the wailing and rending of garments from some people in the northern hemisphere from here. What both amuses me and pisses me off is that while this is by no means a minor issue it is no different to ones affecting many other manufacturers, it's just that there seems to be a higher quotient of needy whiners in the Guzzi ownership demographic. Honda had shocking problems with cams for over a decade. Honda are still going strong. That's just one very closely paralleled example.

At the end of the day I just want people aware of a potential problem. I care not a jot what people say or do about it. I personally think the 8V is a fantastic engine and while this problem is a pisser and I don't think the company management is addressing the problem in a particularly ethical way it's certainly not going to put me off riding and owning the most enjoyable motorcycle I've ever had the good fortune to fling a leg over. You want to shoot the messenger? Go ahead. Strikes me a particularly foolish though.

Pete
Pete,
Really, don't flatter yourself thinking I was asking you a question as I would have addressed you personally like "hey Vasco" or similar if I was. Also' your responses to my inquiries have been somewhat less than civil in the past so I tried not to provoke you with a direct query. I see I failed. I acknowledge your knowledge of Guzzi but was throwing this out there to the general population and not specifically to you. You know, looking for other opinions, even yours. I've owned Guzzis for many years, and have always done my own work, my first an Ambassador in 1975. I'll not let anyone intimidate me from crowing out loud about my love of the brand. May I suggest you just hit the ignore button and be done with me?

Best,
Peter

PS
Scientific method relies on peer review of ones findings.

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2015, 01:18:28 PM »
Every time I have seen reports of flat tappet failures on a particular brand of car, it has always been a matter of time before it has become a problem for ALL of them. VW Audi has had issues, the most recent being failure of the fuel pump cam in earlier 2.0 Turbos. One doesn't need to be hysterical to see that some work and expense will be a part of the ownership experience for certain vehicles.

Vasco DG

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Re: Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2015, 01:32:32 PM »
Pete,
Really, don't flatter yourself thinking I was asking you a question as I would have addressed you personally like "hey Vasco" or similar if I was. Also' your responses to my inquiries have been somewhat less than civil in the past so I tried not to provoke you with a direct query. I see I failed. I acknowledge your knowledge of Guzzi but was throwing this out there to the general population and not specifically to you. You know, looking for other opinions, even yours. I've owned Guzzis for many years, and have always done my own work, my first an Ambassador in 1975. I'll not let anyone intimidate me from crowing out loud about my love of the brand. May I suggest you just hit the ignore button and be done with me?

Best,
Peter

PS
Scientific method relies on peer review of ones findings.

Sorry, I have no idea what you're going on about. I can't remember ever saying anything to you or about anything you've written.

As for peer review? Exactly! Which is why I'm more than happy for people to challenge my assertions but criticism has to be backed up by data and facts rather than nebulous ideas.

 

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