Author Topic: New ICE Design  (Read 1537 times)

Offline twowings

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 11:28:34 AM by twowings »
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2022, 03:00:23 PM »
Try as I might, I can't crunch through the copy accompanying that video,

any genius out there inclined to break it down for the rest of us?


Offline LowRyter

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2022, 04:14:01 PM »
 :popcorn:
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Offline twowings

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2022, 04:21:32 PM »
The basic upshot is it's similar to the Wankel design but with much better sealing of the combustion chamber(s).

Chuck in Indiana or rodekyll will be able to explain it much more throroughly.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 04:23:11 PM by twowings »
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2022, 04:21:32 PM »

Offline LowRyter

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2022, 04:28:44 PM »
I thought it had a separate rotor for intake and exhaust with a rotary valve between the two rotors.  Lots of rotaries here. 

I still don't understand how that works or why.  And the simple two (four?) rotor weighs like 70 lbs and puts out 150hp or something.
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Offline twowings

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2022, 08:24:29 PM »
Yes, not bad specs for use in a motorcycle application.  Of course, as Chief Dan George once said, "Sometimes these things work, and sometimes they don't."  :cool:
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Offline berniebee

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2022, 09:51:35 AM »
Try as I might, I can't crunch through the copy accompanying that video,

any genius out there inclined to break it down for the rest of us?

I think I understand this thing, so I'll take a shot at it. For the o'clock positions I mention below, those are with you standing at the left end of the engine.

 The blue set of rings (labelled as rotors.) aspirate and then compress the fuel mixture. Notice how the lower blue rotor has a single "gear tooth" (paddle) which meshes with a gap in the upper rotor.  The blue rotors rotate together because they are coupled by gears. The upper rotor turns counter clockwise, the lower rotor clockwise.  So when the lower rotor's paddle is at say, the 3 o'clock position, the gap in the upper rotor is also at 3 o'clock. The paddle sweeps round and round within a chamber (The compression housing)  which is shaped to tightly fit the profile of the paddle.  That chamber is a hollow donut with a rectangular cross section. Google: "square toroid" for a pic.  The paddle is analogous to a piston in conventional engine, in that the paddle is doing the sucking and squeezing. You could also say that the compression housing is analogous to an engine's cylinder.

As they rotate the two rotors are always in contact, forming a line seal. Within the compression chamber, no gases can get past that point.

Now imagine the lower rotor's paddle just starting to move clockwise away from 12 o'clock. As it moves, it creates a vacuum behind it, pulling in a fuel/air mix into the compression housing.(CH). The intake port would be at about 1 o'clock.  The paddle goes right around, pulling in mix until it reaches 12 o'clock. It keeps going, but the mix behind it is trapped within the CH, because of the seal at  the two rotor's contact line. Now as the paddle proceeds 'round the chamber again it compresses the mix. One more thing about the compression housing: It has a port in the side (At about 11 O'clock, I think.) which is covered by a rotary valve which is rotating alongside the lower rotor. At the point where the mix is highly compressed, the rotary valve hole lines up with the CH port, and the fuel air mixture bursts out of the compression housing and into the combustion housing where the red rotors reside. Note that when the engine is running, the blue paddle is simultaneously creating a vacuum behind it to draw in a fresh charge while compressing the previous charge ahead of the paddle.

The red pair of rotors take care of combustion and exhaust. Just like the blue rotors, the red rotors are geared together.  The lower rotor paddle also moves through a square toroidal chamber and the contact line where the upper and lower rotors touch is also a seal.  As the lower rotor paddle moves clockwise past 12 o'clock the compressed fresh charge transfers in from the compression housing to behind the paddle, the rotary valve rotates to close the port and then the mix is ignited, driving the paddle forward. Simultaneously, the paddle is pushing the previous cycle's combustion products ahead of it to an exhaust port which (I think) would be at about 11 o'clock. This engine has a power stroke on every revolution- very efficient!

Does this explanation make sense to anyone?















« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 10:54:49 AM by berniebee »

Offline LowRyter

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2022, 11:17:11 AM »
Bernie, does this mean that these rotors are "two sided" in each chamber vs a "three sided" rotor on a conventional (single chamber) rotary?

Or am I totally off base?
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Online auzziguzzi

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2022, 04:25:29 PM »
Does this explanation make sense to anyone?
YES!  Thank you for the clear explanation, berniebee.

We could, perhaps, compare it to a 2-stroke engine and see some analogies :

Intake and compression occur in one chamber (analogous to the 2-stroke crankcase).

There is a timed and sudden transfer of the compressed fuel-air mix from the first to a second chamber (analogous to the 2-stroke transfer port opening).

Firing, expansion and exhaust occur in the second chamber (analogous to firing, expansion and exhaust in the 2-stroke cylinder).

2-strokes also have a power event on every revolution.

Most likely, lubrication would also be accomplished by a fuel-oil mix, same as the 2-stroke.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2022, 04:26:56 PM by auzziguzzi »
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Offline berniebee

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2022, 04:27:12 PM »
Bernie, does this mean that these rotors are "two sided" in each chamber vs a "three sided" rotor on a conventional (single chamber) rotary?

Or am I totally off base?
First, I realize that my original explanation is wrong in at least one way. The intake rotor compresses only air (Not fuel mix)  which goes into a prechamber between the two rotor sets.  The fuel is injected there and then the mix is ported into the combustion (red) rotor chamber.

To answer your question, you can't really compare them that way. They are both rotary, but each side of the three sided rotor in the Wankel handles all phases of the four stroke cycle. In the Omega 1 the blue paddle's functions are always just intake and compression. The red paddle sees a power pulse behind it and it exhausts burnt fuel ahead of the paddle. The Wankel see three power pulses per revolution, while the Omega 1 has just one power pulse per revolution. 

The Omega makers are claiming 160 horsepower from a 35lb engine, ability to stack engines, very low emissions, high fuel efficiency and extremely long lifetime. Supercharging/turbocharging seems to be in the works too. Too good to be true? Beats me. But it's an interesting concept.



Online auzziguzzi

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2022, 04:40:49 PM »
Quote
Supercharging/turbocharging seems to be in the works too. Too good to be true? Beats me. But it's an interesting concept.
Might be very easy to achieve with this design just by making the swept volume of the BLUE rotors, say, 50% larger than the RED rotors.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2022, 04:45:29 PM »
It's as good as it's roller bearings, don't use junk. I would like to see one actually running.
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Online auzziguzzi

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2022, 04:47:20 PM »
Quote
The intake rotor compresses only air (Not fuel mix)  which goes into a prechamber between the two rotor sets.  The fuel is injected there and then the mix is ported into the combustion (red) rotor chamber.

Using the 2-stroke analogy again, this makes the fuel injection process similar to Transfer Port Injection as used by the late model Husqvarna 300cc 2-stroke engine.
In that case, it would be no good adding oil to the fuel.  It would be too late for the BLUE rotors!
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2022, 05:25:56 PM »
Over the years, I've seen many "promising" IC engines. So what? Manufacturers are phasing them out over the next 10 years. Development of a new ICE engine is like designing an improved buggy whip in the early 1900s IMHO. (shrug)
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2022, 06:04:47 PM »
Over the years, I've seen many "promising" IC engines. So what? Manufacturers are phasing them out over the next 10 years. Development of a new ICE engine is like designing an improved buggy whip in the early 1900s IMHO. (shrug)

Maybe or maybe not.  I still remember the predictions of flying cars back in the sixties becoming prevalent in a few years. 

I think quite a few of the master of hype who are predicting the demise of the ICE within a few decades, be very over optimistic, or even naive of the costs involved.  Thanks to the laws of physics, there are lots of problems to overcome before the electric vehicles become the normal.

All that said, there is money to be made by jumping on the current fads while they are still popular.  Can't blame anyone for trying to feed their families but selling the masses what they want to buy.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/12/the-cost-of-net-zero-electrification-of-the-u-s-a-blog-post/

https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2022-1-22-what-solution-do-renewable-energy-advocates-offer-for-the-problem-of-storage

http://euanmearns.com/the-cost-of-wind-solar-power-batteries-included/
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 08:11:50 AM by Ncdan »
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2022, 06:06:38 PM »
Over the years, I've seen many "promising" IC engines. So what? Manufacturers are phasing them out over the next 10 years. Development of a new ICE engine is like designing an improved buggy whip in the early 1900s IMHO. (shrug)

one word:  Naugahyde

 :wink:
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2022, 06:10:02 PM »
one word:  Naugahyde

 :wink:

I'll be hornswoggled and bullwhipped if I'm gonna start hunting, killing, and skinning Naugas just to have a fancy seat on my motorcycle.  They're are cute.  Especially the babies.   :wink:
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 08:30:10 AM by SIR REAL ED »
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2022, 08:01:31 AM »
I'm as much of a gearhead as anyone on here, but I can see what is coming..
Forinstance..
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2017/09/countries-are-announcing-plans-to-phase-out-petrol-and-diesel-cars-is-yours-on-the-list/
That is an old site.. just picked randomly. There are many more, now.
Flying cars? Not for the common man. Probably autonomous city "cabs." They will be electric, too.
Edit:
From Wiki..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_fossil_fuel_vehicles
« Last Edit: January 30, 2022, 08:15:24 AM by Chuck in Indiana »
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Offline kirby1923

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2022, 08:41:16 AM »
I'm with you Chuck, the __ONLY___way "flying cars"  will work for common transportation will happen is when we learn how to manipulate/control gravity...period.

Yeah, you can just jump in your preferred ground-based transport and booggy almost in any wx, but once you leave the ground for a journey no matter how short, the metric changes dramatically.  Flying cars are a real pipe dream at this point in civilization no matter what you see with online fantasies.



Not just around the corner.

:-)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 09:42:06 AM by kirby1923 »
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2022, 08:59:50 AM »
well the good part is that physics and $ costs don't care much about our thoughts and feelings.  Technical problems require technical solutions.  Our personal credentials as gear heads or engineers are irrelevant.

I love my battery powered drills, circular saw and angle grinder, but not ready to give up my gas powered mowers, brush cutter, chainsaws, ATV, and cars/trucks.  EV's and electricity definitely have a lot of practical uses.  In some applications, they don't.

Electric trains in tunnels with limited oxygen is a great solution.  Electric airplanes, not so much.  Energy density of jet fuel vs. a big battery is an influential factor.

If I know my electric snowblower can only clear my driveway of 4" of snow, and/or my electric chainsaw is only good for 20 minutes of cutting, then a tree falls which requires 45 minutes of cutting to get it out of my driveway, or I get 10" of snow, and the power is out.....

Luckily, storing an extra 20 gallons of gasoline is an easy thing to do.  Fire up my generator and charge my batteries.

Making a 300 miles trip in an EV with a 400 miles range in the summer is prudent.  In the winter, where one might get stuck in a ditch or a traffic jam and need that battery for heat.... maybe not a good idea.  On the same trip, if you are worried about getting stuck in your ICE vehicle, you could always pull over every 100 miles and top up the tank.

On the other hand, EV's are great as commuter vehicles.

The other costs people don't think about are infrastructure and the human factor.  Scrap all the pipelines, gas stations, and existing ICE's, tell all the mechanics/gear heads and people involve in the support industries everything they know is obsolete and they must change careers.  Build all new manufacturing facilities, charging stations, and power lines.  Big $.  Who pays?  Was the solution worth the cost?

In my simple mind, that is the extremely fascinating, eternal conversation.......  The cost to "me" based on the benefits to "we!"  That discussion will continue for eons.

Tough questions to answer.  Change is coming.  How soon, where and at what costs are the unknowns.

"Difficult to see, the future...... always emotions!" - Yoda

In the meantime, great fodder for internet and campfire discussions.  However it shakes out, it will be interesting.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 08:11:10 AM by SIR REAL ED »
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2022, 09:03:30 AM »
I'm with you Chuck, the __ONLY___way "flying cars" cars will work for common transportation will happen is when we learn how to manipulate/control gravity...period.

Yeah, you can just jump in your preferred ground-based transport and buggy almost in any wx, but once you leave the ground for a journey no matter how short, the metric changes dramatically.  Flying cars are a real pipe dream at this point in civilization no matter what you see with online fantasies.



Not just around the corner.

:-)

There was some fascinating video of perhaps 20 drones flying extremely complex formations and maneuvers, I think it was from MIT.  The video is at least 5-10 years old by now.

Humans have enough problems negotiating two dimensions, let alone three.  If flying cars ever come about, we will all be passengers, not drivers.
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2022, 09:47:22 AM »
 :popcorn:

You know I can't comment.
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2022, 08:13:40 AM »
:popcorn:

You know I can't comment.

Jump on in!  The water is fine!

Once we find out what the ET's are driving, we'll know more about the future of ICE vehicles vs EV's.

We'll probably still argue over what oil to use though.......     :laugh:
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2022, 08:59:57 AM »
Jump on in!  The water is fine!

Once we find out what the ET's are driving, we'll know more about the future of ICE vehicles vs EV's.

We'll probably still argue over what oil to use though.......     :laugh:

Nope, I'd drown.  But be my guest.   :evil:
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Offline DougG

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2022, 11:41:03 AM »
  Hi all,                                                                                                                                             1-31-22

I'm curious...unless I missed it, was there any mention of projected mileage, efficiency?  Without a working vehicle, it might not be possible to project any mpg.  In a lab, they might be able to "guestimate" by comparing the input and output temperatures and plugging them into a thermodynamic equation.
 I remember that the Wankel wasn't particularly efficient.  Although it had other benefits.

Be well, stay well,

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2022, 12:13:41 PM »
Over the years, I've seen many "promising" IC engines. So what? Manufacturers are phasing them out over the next 10 years. Development of a new ICE engine is like designing an improved buggy whip in the early 1900s IMHO. (shrug)

And yet development continues, and I for one am glad that it does. This one shows promise.
https://www.engineering.com/story/update-wankel-20-the-return-of-the-rotary-engine
Charlie

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2022, 12:38:06 PM »
And yet development continues, and I for one am glad that it does. This one shows promise.
https://www.engineering.com/story/update-wankel-20-the-return-of-the-rotary-engine

Amen Charlie.

Once the mandate is given, and gasoline/diesel/jet fuel are no longer available.  All the ICE vehicles and power tools will rapidly assume the equivalent value of scrap metal.

None of the old farts I know will be happy about it.

Even my green friends are going to shed a few tears when all their investments in ICE technology are worthless and they are forced to replace all the above with electric powered substitutions.

The younger generations will not be cognizant.  "Internal Combustion Engines, Standard Transmissions, hand crank windows, phones with rotary dials?????????  I can't even find that stuff on the internet."
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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2022, 12:40:38 PM »
Nope, I'd drown.  But be my guest.   :evil:

If I was an ET visiting Earth, in my spacecraft, I'd hook up a rotary telephone and an eight track tape deck to the gravitational wave multi-dimensional reactator...... just in case I crashed!!!    :evil:
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 12:42:37 PM by SIR REAL ED »
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Offline acguzzi

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2022, 01:18:25 PM »
I no longer have any gasoline garden tools, they were a PIA, my wife needs a new car, it will be electric, that way when she floors the throttle in a cold vehicle I won't have to wince, and she wont need to think if she has gas in the car, just plug it in when you park. My car is good for at least another five years, hopefully by that time I'll also be able to switch to electric. My Guzzi is antique and I'm sure I can keep it going.

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: New ICE Design
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2022, 04:09:59 PM »
Once the mandate is given, and gasoline/diesel/jet fuel are no longer available.  All the ICE vehicles and power tools will rapidly assume the equivalent value of scrap metal.

There's always alcohol, just like Brazil did back in the '70s...

I no longer have any gasoline garden tools, they were a PIA

Tried to saw a few small (4" diameter) logs today with the battery powered chainsaw, despite the batteries being fully charged, it was stop/start over and over due to the cold. Fired up my '84 Husqvarna 154 SE gas saw (which last ran two years ago) and finished the job. My gas trimmer, leaf blower, etc. are similarly reliable and trouble-free, as is the Lawn-Boy, Toro and Gravelys.
Charlie

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
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Quad Lock - The best GPS / phone mount system for your motorcycles, no damage to your cameras!!
Get a Wildguzzi discount of 10% off your order!
http://quadlock.refr.cc/luapmckeever
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