Running tubeless

[Ronkom]

Has anyone had long term success w/sealing the spoke nipples & running tubeless tires on The classic  Borrani "Record" rims as used on the loops & early Tontis? If so, what's your hot set-up for sealing the spoke nipples?
Thanks,
ronkom

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_tires_-_tubeless_conversion.html

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes, I sealed my loop's Borrani wheels over 5 years ago with GE 100% Silicone and it has held pressure since.
Not all Silicons are created equal, many of the larger tubes will not hold air.
I'm told that some Silicons use Vinegar as a curing agent and these can be quite corrosive.
Recently I switched to Sikaflex Marine sealant for my V7III this is the way I will go for my Convert.

[Ncdan]

It’s my understanding that there is a wheel design difference between a tubeless wheel and tube type wheel. I also have learned that there is a hazard issue with a tire bead breaking loose in the event that pressure  gets low. Opinions based on facts welcome.

[Alfetta]

It’s my understanding that there is a wheel design difference between a tubeless wheel and tube type wheel. I also have learned that there is a hazard issue with a tire bead breaking loose in the event that pressure  gets low. Opinions based on facts welcome.

Beyond the fact that tubeless wheels must be air tight and tube wheels may or may-not be air tight, i doubt that there is much difference, otherwise changing from one type to the other would require a wheel change.

Holding pressure is not the only critical design function. keeping the tire from rotating on the wheel is critical and, as most road bikes are not using rim-locks, the tire bead and rim land geometry can't be deviated without risking that function. (just imagine the force required next time you see a rider pull a stoppie of wheelie).

Personally the only advantage i can see with a tubeless setup is that if you are running on a low pressure tube tire, and then you smash the brakes or whack the taps open, you can shear off a stem. (why are you riding like a goon on bad tires?) and hard edge impacts can pinch a tube. (best learn how to pick a line) and tubes can also twist up into a knot when very low on pressure.
(why the crap are you out riding on them)

I very much like the fact that spoked wheels are very strong and very light weight.  Tubeless designs seem to default to fully cast wheels and they are heavy and have accelerating sapping inertia values.. (exception are newer spoked rims, that do not pass the spoke nut through the rim, but they are $$$)

[bigbikerrick]

I have been running tubeless on the Borranis on my 73 eldo for over 12 years, 20+ thousand miles and never a problem. I used RTV silicone, and then did a friends using 3M 5200 marine caulk. both worked very well.
Rick.

[moto]

The other well-known drawback of tubes is what happens when you get a nail through your tire, as happened to me last weekend. With tubeless, it's generally plug and go. With the tube, for me, it was arrange a car and trailer and get home after midnight.

Moto

[Vagrant]

Roy, did you use the #291?

[John Croucher]

I used 3M marine sealer.  No leaks in 3 years. 

The process takes several days.  Clean wheels and spoke nipples in a good degreaser bath, blow moisture from nipples.  The sealer is acetone base.  Wipe rim with acetone before starting applications.  1st, spot each nipple head with a smoothed out layer. Let cure 24 hour.  2nd, apply a layer all the way around the rim well area.  Smoothing and cleaning with acetone dipped finger and cleaning excess with paper towel.  Let set for 24 hours.  3rd final coat. Apply same as 2nd coat.  Let cure for 48 hours.  Use a NAPA Tubeless rim metal valve stem. 

I cleaned all the mold flash off the new tire sealing area with a scotch Brite pad before installing tire on rim.  I found these mold flash points are a source for leaks on a tubeless setup.

Acetone  is the key to a good smooth finish.  Tape method is a waste of time.  The final finish will be about 1/4 -5/16 thick.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy, did you use the #291?

Yes Sikaflex 291
I looked for the 3M products but nobody seems to stock it in Vancouver.

[egschade]

It’s my understanding that there is a wheel design difference between a tubeless wheel and tube type wheel. I also have learned that there is a hazard issue with a tire bead breaking loose in the event that pressure  gets low. Opinions based on facts welcome.

Older tube wheels may have very shallow shoulders and are not considered 'safety' rims able to hold and seal a tubeless tire correctly. The V85TT rims have that taller shoulder and bead seal so if sealed they will work. Not sure about other Guzzi rims...

[Ncdan]

Older tube wheels may have very shallow shoulders and are not considered 'safety' rims able to hold and seal a tubeless tire correctly. The V85TT rims have that taller shoulder and bead seal so if sealed they will work. Not sure about other Guzzi rims...

I don’t know but my mechanic says the rims on my 02 Stone are tube design only.
IDK either way but it would be nice to know for sure.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you run your tires at zero pressure of course the bead may pop off but work out the force holding it on the rim with moderate pressure say 20 PSI.
It doesn't matter how many tell about running tubeless for years, others will try to make out its dangerous.
The only disadvantage I'm aware of is you pretty much have to do your own tires.
The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

[wirespokes]

The advantages of running tubeless far outweigh the disadvantages. Actually, the only downside I can see is if the rim gets severely bent - the tubeless will probably lose all air while it's remotely possible the tube will stay inflated. But that's the only upside to keeping a tube.

The new wheels with a safety bead are better, no doubt about it. But if there's no safety bead and the wheel wasn't originally designed tubeless, it's still much safer running tubeless. Sure, the angles of the seating area have been changed and all that, but no matter which tube-type rim, running tubeless is the best solution.

If the rim doesn't have a safety bead to keep the tire seated properly, having a tube (when it blows) or not won't make a difference. If all the air blows out (tube or tubeless) the tire can still come loose. Might as well run tubeless since the likelihood of total air loss is considerably less.

By the way - I've heard that the cause of most blow-outs (on large trucks, at least) is underinflation (not poor recaps). Wonder if that's the same for bikes?

[mtiberio]

yes, the bent rim scenario is why off road guys that often air down and risk bent rims prefer tubes.

The safety rim debate has gone on long and hard. My $0.02 is, if the old rims were so unsafe, a punctured tube isn't going to keep the tire on the rim. Given how hard it can be to seat a tubeless tire onto a tube rim profile, just due to symmetry, it is going to be just as hard to jump off. And finally, tubeless tires often say, on tube rims use a tube, so the tires can be used with tube rims. The punctured tube isn't saving you from a tire coming off, so there is no increase in tires jumping off if you convert to tubeless. Same risk as you had before.

Yes to removing a casting tits on new tires in the bead seating area. They can become channels for leaks.

[Sye]

If the rim is marked MT then it's fine to use tubeless tyres. If it's spoked, then seal it or run it with tubes. If it's marked WM you can only fit tubed tyres. The lip profile determines if you can or can't run tubeless tyres. Most modern rims are MT but not all.

[John Croucher]

Rear wheel with 3M sealer. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yeah. Marine stuff. Works fine, last a long time. 
Oh, forgot. *unless* you have a tire monkey change your tires. Ask Austin what they can do if they're not careful. <shrug>

[Lesman]

Marine 5200 excellent stuff so is e5200 both work great

[MtnAir]

Bumping this up to ask if anyone can confirm whether the OEM spoked rims on the 2022 V7 850 Special have safety beads?

[rocker59]

It’s my understanding that there is a wheel design difference between a tubeless wheel and tube type wheel. I also have learned that there is a hazard issue with a tire bead breaking loose in the event that pressure  gets low. Opinions based on facts welcome.

As I understand it, modern DOT approved motorcycle wheels have the same profile (MT), tube type and tubeless.  On vintage wheels, there is a difference in the profile.  On the old 1970s Borriani wheels, I think running tube-type tyres would be the recommended course of action.

[Guzzistajohn]

I don't have Borrani's but the Outex kit worked fine. They have "gummy" round stickers for the spoke nipples.

[rocker59]

Bumping this up to ask if anyone can confirm whether the OEM spoked rims on the 2022 V7 850 Special have safety beads?

As Sye said previously:

If the rim is marked MT then it's fine to use tubeless tyres. If it's spoked, then seal it or run it with tubes. If it's marked WM you can only fit tubed tyres. The lip profile determines if you can or can't run tubeless tyres. Most modern rims are MT but not all.

The "MT" mark can be found on the rim, along with the size, and other info.

[MtnAir]

As Sye said previously:

The "MT" mark can be found on the rim, along with the size, and other info.

The rear rims on our 2022 V7 850 Specials do not appear to have any markings whatsoever. 

The front rims are etched "DOT T 18X2.50 TLA 36 ITALY 10/21"

We called the dealership earlier this morning.  The service tech first asked what "safety beads" were; then said "no"; then put me on hold and said "yes".  Before running with their latest advice I decided to put the ? here.

[rocker59]

The rear rims on our 2022 V7 850 Specials do not appear to have any markings whatsoever. 

The front rims are etched "DOT T 18X2.50 TLA 36 ITALY 10/21"

We called the dealership earlier this morning.  The service tech first asked what "safety beads" were; then said "no"; then put me on hold and said "yes".  Before running with their latest advice I decided to put the ? here.

I'm quite sure you will find that your rims are contoured for tubeless.  I wouldn't be surprised if you found the tires installed by Guzzi are marked "TL" (tubeless).  Have you happened to check that?  The only reason you have tubes is because of the wire wheel construction.

Every DOT approved motorcycle wire wheel I've looked at over the past 25 years has had the tubeless profile, and many of those bikes came factory equipped with tubes and tubeless tires.

The first motorcycle I remember confirming this with was a 1998 Triumph Thunderbird Sport, which ran
17-inch sporty rubber on its wire wheels.

[MtnAir]

I just called a second MG dealership and spoke with their service dept. 

The tech consulted his data then advised me the spoked wheel rims on our 2022 V7 850 Specials do indeed have safety beads.

Thanks all.

[rocker59]

I just called a second MG dealership and spoke with their service dept. 

The tech consulted his data then advised me the spoked wheel rims on our 2022 V7 850 Specials do indeed have safety beads.

Thanks all.

 

[Bob Wegman]

My 2019 V7III 750 has safety beads on the spoked rims.  I run tubes in the tires because I don't think it is very difficult to fix a flat if needed. 

[egschade]

Yes Sikaflex 291
I looked for the 3M products but nobody seems to stock it in Vancouver.

A month in to my rim sealing with Sikaflex fast cure and 3M tape and I'm still air tight on the V85TT. The rims have the inside lip as shown in the diagrams. This is how it looked after caulking and before taping. Zoom in on the picture and you can clearly see the channel for the bead.

[John A]

As I understand it, modern DOT approved motorcycle wheels have the same profile (MT), tube type and tubeless.  On vintage wheels, there is a difference in the profile.  On the old 1970s Borriani wheels, I think running tube-type tyres would be the recommended course of action.

Yep, it’s the bead toe that is the main difference