Author Topic: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine  (Read 2338 times)

Online ohiorider

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Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« on: May 15, 2019, 10:20:46 PM »
Someone help me with this.  Guzzi currently publishes hp and torque specs for both these engines  I'm curious as to what they've done to increase the hp from 55 to 80, and torque from 63 nm to 80 nm on an engine with the same bore (84mm) and stroke (77mm.)  Both engines are air cooled, and both have 2v/cyl heads.  I could not find compression ratio figures or cam timing data.  The V85 is an intriguing bike I'd like to look into further, but I haven't found anything to validate the published hp and torque figures.  Is it possible that the Bobber and Roamer engine is intentionally de-tuned?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 10:23:51 PM by ohiorider »
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 11:05:57 PM »
no secrets here, loads of press at v85 design time, interviews with designer etc, look at v85 thread pages of discussion
long and short of it
1/roller tappets allowing cam that flats could not follow, valve sizes optimised to suit
2/huge tb due to 1
3/ lighter everything making 1&2 work
4/ oil truly separated from windage
nutshell ó- chalk and cheese from v9
longevity to be seen ,hope it has stat on oil cooler ,chances are high this will be bought by many who never come close to it working as designer intendedó- on the noise
they may be wise to make soft v85 with a roamer engine , 80 hp may not be a lot in 2019 but still way more than many can use

Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 11:35:34 PM »
I have not ridden a V9 or such..
Probably never will, but whilst I donít have the arguments ready to engage those that doubt the claims, I can assure the reader that the snap available when you crack the throttle, will leave the rider in no doubt as to the accuracy of the claims.
Granted that losses incurred in the drive train will doubtless reduce the claimed figure by some amount, however the on road performance I found to be quite convincing.
I just wish theyíd just published a figure around the mid 70 mark and we could all just back away from the till...
When turning around to head back to Agostiniís, I was tempted to fan the clutch and pull a nice wheelie, but the Cabinnieri were looking in my direction.
Would be a shame to get their bike impounded or similar. :embarrassed: :undecided:

pete roper

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 11:59:42 PM »
I still don't believe it. I will be interested when it's 4V and I'd buy one with a Hi-Cam.

Pete

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 11:59:42 PM »

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2019, 12:36:36 AM »
I still don't believe it. I will be interested when it's 4V and I'd buy one with a Hi-Cam.

Pete
change your stagename to Thomas
and keep telling us your world is flat
albeit with rollers retro fitted !
enough of them made now, doubt anyone cares if none get sold in Bungendore.
but if you ever get to ride one.........

pete roper

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2019, 12:58:35 AM »
change your stagename to Thomas
and keep telling us your world is flat
albeit with rollers retro fitted !
enough of them made now, doubt anyone cares if none get sold in Bungendore.
but if you ever get to ride one.........

I'll ride one when it's available Martin and I'll be honest in my assessment. I'll eat humble pie if I have to, that's not an issue.

You however continually bang on about the awfulness of bike's that as far as I know you've never ridden, or at least never ridden one that was well set up and maintained. That's fine, but I think that your comments should be seen through the prism of not being able to see advances to engine and engine management technology beyond the 1960's. Sure, the V85 uses some new materials which may, nay will, improve its performance but it remains an essentially unchallenging design with several flaws I worry about. But there again, as you say. I'm a lone voice in Bungendore. I'm OK with that.

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2019, 01:26:27 AM »
I have not ridden a V9 or such..


I just wish theyíd just published a figure around the mid 70 mark and we could all just back away from the till




 completely irrelevant Huzo been said too often
only truth with dyno is comparitive numbers
the 80 number compares to other Guzzis and prob Aprilias too
they didnít build a dyno for v85
it is same dyno as v7, v9 ,1400 etc etc

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 01:31:37 AM »
I'll ride one when it's available Martin and I'll be honest in my assessment. I'll eat humble pie if I have to, that's not an issue.

You however continually bang on about the awfulness of bike's that as far as I know you've never ridden, or at least never ridden one that was well set up and maintained. That's fine, but I think that your comments should be seen through the prism of not being able to see advances to engine and engine management technology beyond the 1960's. Sure, the V85 uses some new materials which may, nay will, improve its performance but it remains an essentially unchallenging design with several flaws I worry about. But there again, as you say. I'm a lone voice in Bungendore. I'm OK with that.

Pete
nfi
me bang on continually about awful bikes?
quote me please
heavy, heath robinson ,maybe but awful?
light and efficient I like, stuff for stuffsake not at all

Offline Trevor G

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 01:42:25 AM »

I just wish theyíd just published a figure around the mid 70 mark and we could all just back away from the till...


It has already been dynoed at 75 or maybe a little more at the rear wheel on an eddy current dyno, I think.

It might be a little less on a real dyno but it's still impressive.


Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 02:14:32 AM »
change your stagename to Thomas
and keep telling us your world is flat
albeit with rollers retro fitted !
enough of them made now, doubt anyone cares if none get sold in Bungendore.
but if you ever get to ride one.........
Heíll be the the only one to get their paws on mine for servicing beyond my own capabilities.
I hope he takes it out and belts the living suitcase out of it..(within reason).
I cannot see why having 4VPC will make it any more desireable, or it can have itís cam on top of the handlebars if thatís high enough..!
I thought it felt strong as an Ox.
It pulls like a 15 year old with a Penthouse..!

Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2019, 02:18:34 AM »
It has already been dynoed at 75 or maybe a little more at the rear wheel on an eddy current dyno, I think.

It might be a little less on a real dyno but it's still impressive.
Well I calculated the power figure for a mass of 300 kg laden and a SS 400 metre time figure of 13 seconds and got around 74 HP.
Thatís Newtonís word on it...!

Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 02:21:22 AM »

 completely irrelevant Huzo been said too often
only truth with dyno is comparitive numbers
the 80 number compares to other Guzzis and prob Aprilias too
they didnít build a dyno for v85
it is same dyno as v7, v9 ,1400 etc etc
What the bloody hell are you on about mate..
All Iím saying is...
If the published figure was closer to 70 than 80, no one would be decrying the claim.
Iíve ridden one and reckon it feels near enough to what they say..
And please.
Do some punctuating...

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 02:30:26 AM »
Heíll be the the only one to get their paws on mine for servicing beyond my own capabilities.
I hope he takes it out and belts the living suitcase out of it..(within reason).
I cannot see why having 4VPC will make it any more desireable, or it can have itís cam on top of the handlebars if thatís high enough..!
I thought it felt strong as an Ox.
It pulls like a 15 year old with a Penthouse..!
when he does, use phone app to log tps, revs etc, then discuss why he wants more hp, of course if he holds it over 8k for more than a few seconds Iíll be hateater
punchtooation ? : ; ,. !

pete roper

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 04:49:46 AM »
How many times do I have to say it Martin. It's not what it is, it's what it's being promoted as.

I have a variety of concerns about a variety of aspects about its engineering. I've never said I think it won't be popular. I just think it is boring, disappointing and not what I want as a motorbike. Others are more than welcome to their views.

Pete

Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 08:16:32 AM »
How many times do I have to say it Martin. It's not what it is, it's what it's being promoted as.

I have a variety of concerns about a variety of aspects about its engineering. I've never said I think it won't be popular. I just think it is boring, disappointing and not what I want as a motorbike. Others are more than welcome to their views.

Pete
So what youíre trying to say is...(for the hundredth time)
The bike is ok as long as you know what youíre getting..(or not getting)
Itís the lies and misinterpretation of itís characteristics that irks..?
Iím buggered if I know why Guzzi even tried to buy into the performance game, no bastard will buy it with that as a KPI, they just want a simple tractor and I hope to buggery thatís what mine turns out to be.

Offline Kev m

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 08:50:12 AM »
Someone help me with this.  Guzzi currently publishes hp and torque specs for both these engines  I'm curious as to what they've done to increase the hp from 55 to 80, and torque from 63 nm to 80 nm on an engine with the same bore (84mm) and stroke (77mm.)  Both engines are air cooled, and both have 2v/cyl heads.  I could not find compression ratio figures or cam timing data.  The V85 is an intriguing bike I'd like to look into further, but I haven't found anything to validate the published hp and torque figures.  Is it possible that the Bobber and Roamer engine is intentionally de-tuned?

So Aussie civil war aside hopefully you've gotten the answer.

The V9 isn't under-rated, compared to the V85 (though dyno charts on the V9 have made me wonder if they don't under-rate it and V7III slightly on the crank figures). I also wonder if the age old mantra that there is nothing more to wring out of a smallblock changed with the Hemi head.

But regardless you can see the V85 has a number of changes (intake, valve train, materials, lower internal frictional loses) which add up to the not insignificant power jump from the V9's 51 rwhp.

You really see the difference in tuning at peak rpms - V85 70+ rwhp @ ~8000 rpm vs V9 51 hp @ 6500.

So the V85 is designed/tuned to spin up more. Not necessarily something that translates to the style/use of the V9 anyway.
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 08:54:03 AM »
So Aussie civil war aside hopefully you've gotten the answer.

The V9 isn't under-rated, compared to the V85 (though dyno charts on the V9 have made me wonder if they don't under-rate it and V7III slightly on the crank figures). I also wonder if the age old mantra that there is nothing more to wring out of a smallblock changed with the Hemi head.

But regardless you can see the V85 has a number of changes (intake, valve train, materials, lower internal frictional loses) which add up to the not insignificant power jump from the V9's 51 rwhp.

You really see the difference in tuning at peak rpms - V85 70+ rwhp @ ~8000 rpm vs V9 51 hp @ 6500.

So the V85 is designed/tuned to spin up more. Not necessarily something that translates to the style/use of the V9 anyway.
Heron head Kev.

Offline Kev m

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 09:07:31 AM »
Heron head Kev.

You mis-read.

CHANGED WITH THE HEMI HEAD - i.e. I think the Heron head design limited hp gains from uncorking, but it I suspect that CHANGED with the introduction of the Hemi head on the V9, V7III and now V85.

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 10:02:35 AM »
John L 
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Offline Glawster

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2019, 10:20:46 AM »
How many times do I have to say it Martin. It's not what it is, it's what it's being promoted as.

I have a variety of concerns about a variety of aspects about its engineering. I've never said I think it won't be popular. I just think it is boring, disappointing and not what I want as a motorbike. Others are more than welcome to their views.

Pete

My previous 3 modern bikes have been BMW GS1200LC, Ducati 1200 Multistrada and Triumph Tiger 800.  I had a test ride on the V85, thought about it for a couple of days and then placed an order.  Forget the BHP figures, it's a delight to ride and I'm champing at the bit waiting for mine to arrive.  Oh and of the above 3 bikes I'd rate the Tiger 800 as the best FOR ME.  The Multi might have 160 bhp, but doesn't make it more fun to ride in my eyes.
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 11:16:30 AM »
You mis-read.

CHANGED WITH THE HEMI HEAD - i.e. I think the Heron head design limited hp gains from uncorking, but it I suspect that CHANGED with the introduction of the Hemi head on the V9, V7III and now V85.
Ok Kev.
Iíve read it a few times and Iíll admit to a touch of apathy, probably why I donít follow.
Iíve no doubt youíll have done  your homework.

Offline Huzo

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 11:19:32 AM »
My previous 3 modern bikes have been BMW GS1200LC, Ducati 1200 Multistrada and Triumph Tiger 800.  I had a test ride on the V85, thought about it for a couple of days and then placed an order.  Forget the BHP figures, it's a delight to ride and I'm champing at the bit waiting for mine to arrive.  Oh and of the above 3 bikes I'd rate the Tiger 800 as the best FOR ME.  The Multi might have 160 bhp, but doesn't make it more fun to ride in my eyes.
Colour Derek ?

Online ohiorider

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 07:29:58 PM »
Lots of great responses about the V85.  Thanks all.

I've been riding a 1991 R100GS since, well, 1991.  I think the V85 is a reasonable replacement/stable companion for that bike.  Both of these bikes weigh less than 500 pounds (almost.)  In any case, both have long travel suspension, similar displacement engines (850/1000) and they both seem to exemplify simplicity.  The latest BMW GS series holds no interest for me, considering I'm getting older and prefer lighter bikes.  The newer ones are just too big, too tall, and most of all, too expensive. 

My old GS meets the lighter weight and simple criteria, and it appears that the V85 does too.  The BMW Airhead Club uses as their slogan "Simple By Choice."  I agree.

I threw a bunch of $$ at the old GS this past fall, and am very happy with the results to date.  Just a short 75 mile ride today, but that was enough to make me recall how much I appreciate this old bike.  I'm hoping the V85 is a similar machine.

Bob
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 07:38:27 PM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2019, 09:50:44 PM »
I'll ride one when it's available Martin and I'll be honest in my assessment. I'll eat humble pie if I have to, that's not an issue.

You however continually bang on about the awfulness of bike's that as far as I know you've never ridden

Pete

finally got that statement
you have me confused with someone else who cannot accept the progress Guzzi have made with this v85 engine

truely not this black duck
I will add my 2 bobsworth after riding and reading more , at present only tft nonsense is potential issue
motor far from awful, all love it
sure I will too
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:52:47 PM by jacksonracingcomau »

Online rtbickel

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 10:46:56 PM »
In the final analysis, the only things that actually matter are your butt-dyno and the grin factor.
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Offline tris

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2019, 01:52:31 AM »
.....only truth with dyno is comparitive numbers......

This whole question about dyno inaccuracy puzzles me

I work for a company that rebuilds and tests industrial gas turbines and we test them on a calibrated water brake (dyno) for power output at various loads up to full load

However, our test results are adjusted back to ISO (International Standards Organisation) specifications using specified calculations to adjust for the actual ambient air temperature, air pressure, calorific value of the fuel used, etc. on the day of the test

Therefore it doesn't mater that our engine is tested at 10C at sea level and the customer is running at 25C at altitude, as the contracted power is the corrected ISO figure

It also means that it wouldn't matter if it was tested on our brake or another companies as the corrected figure would be the same

Does the auto industry not have a similar standard means to normalise data results so that comparisons can be made?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 01:53:45 AM by tris »
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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2019, 02:48:08 AM »
This whole question about dyno inaccuracy puzzles me

I work for a company that rebuilds and tests industrial gas turbines and we test them on a calibrated water brake (dyno) for power output at various loads up to full load

However, our test results are adjusted back to ISO (International Standards Organisation) specifications using specified calculations to adjust for the actual ambient air temperature, air pressure, calorific value of the fuel used, etc. on the day of the test

Therefore it doesn't mater that our engine is tested at 10C at sea level and the customer is running at 25C at altitude, as the contracted power is the corrected ISO figure

It also means that it wouldn't matter if it was tested on our brake or another companies as the corrected figure would be the same

Does the auto industry not have a similar standard means to normalise data results so that comparisons can be made?
in theory yes
and no doubt Aprilia/Guzzi figures are normalised. point of my post
but every thomas , richard and harold has a dyno now,  caveat emptor,
I picked up 10bhp by driving 10 miles once
good PB (uk) article a few years ago
one bike , one day, 10 dynos, all Dynojet brand, discrepancies were mental

Offline Red

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2019, 07:28:22 PM »
Some of the power increase could just be a re map and freer intake and exhaust in addition to internals. I am in the process of breaking in a V9 and even under 4,500 it feels very nice!  Just not the seat so much.  :-)
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Offline jas67

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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2019, 10:05:03 AM »

I've been riding a 1991 R100GS since, well, 1991.  I think the V85 is a reasonable replacement/stable companion for that bike. ....
.... I threw a bunch of $$ at the old GS this past fall, and am very happy with the results to date.  Just a short 75 mile ride today, but that was enough to make me recall how much I appreciate this old bike.  I'm hoping the V85 is a similar machine.

Bob

You should buy a new V85TT, and KEEP the R100GS.
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Re: Roamer/Bobber vs V85 engine
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2019, 02:14:23 PM »
You should buy a new V85TT, and KEEP the R100GS.
Jas, if I were to purchase a V85, that would definitely be the plan.

Bob
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
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