I need a primer on sax

[Chuck in Indiana]

I've never heard that and it doesn't make sense to me.

If that were the way to teach people to play an instrument, we'd be training pilots to fly on surplus DC-8s and then moving them on to Cessna 172s.   They'd be a cinch to fly then!

Lannis

Embouchure, Lannis. The sax is easy in comparison.

[Kev m]

This is a great forum for sax education.

 

[Lannis]

Embouchure, Lannis. The sax is easy in comparison.

Every reed instrument is easy compared to an oboe .... Maybe start with that then.

Lannis

[GonzoB]

I have been playing electronic wind controllers for a few years now. I used to have a clarinet and alto sax, but I have sold them as I like the electronic stuff so much. I've got an Akai EWI-USB and a Roland Aerophone AE-10.

I can recommend the Aerophone AE10 as a great place to start for students. There are simpler versions, but the AE10 sounds the best. It's self-contained (has a built-in synth), feels like a sax, and has 128 internal sounds, including quite realistic sax, clarinet, flute and trumpet voices. I play it in a couple of concert bands as 1st clarinet and 1st flute. I've also used the bass clarinet and oboe sounds to good effect. They're about USD800.

It's not as sexy as having a big brass horn, but it's really flexible, expressive, and you can sound like lots of different instruments. For parents, it's pretty good as you can play quietly or with headphones. For students, you instantly get a great sound and don't have to spend hours getting your embouchure into shape.

The only extra item you need is a portable speaker, and there are lots of them around (you need about 20W)

The biggest drawback is that many people thing they are a "fake" instrument. Sometimes bands won't allow them (eg pure brass). For me, it's just another (different) instrument that you have to get to know. I doubt that I've ever going to exceed its capabilities.

Gonzo

[jas67]

My daughter plays tenor.   She played alto in 4th through 7th grades, adding tenor in 7th, and then only playing tenor in 8th.   She suffered through 7th and 8th grade with a school instrument that was in poor condition.   She's now in 9th.

She was in concert and jazz band throughout middle school, and was accepted into the jazz band in the high school, and also in marching band, concert band, and orchestra.   Jazz band entry if by audition only. 

She has proven to have sustained interest in playing sax, so  I bought her a new Selmer from a local music shop over the summer for $800 before band camp started for the season.   I think we ended up paying more than that in rental of the alto, which was a rent-own program.

Anyway, she's been pretty happy with the Selmer.   We discussed it with the school band director who said they're a good quality student instrument for a reasonable price.

[ozarquebus]

My vote is to get them a better horn and resell it for what you've got in it when they give it up after hi school.
Oboes, bassoons, english horns, saxophones, clarinets, etc have all settled on the Boehm fingering system and therefore all finger similarly.
Transition is not a big deal even though double reeds are harder, they ain't so bad and don't take as much wind.
Even though school furnished horns are usually ok, if they show a spark, i'd vote to upgrade. They may soar with a spirited horn and pro mouthpiece.
 That is my lowly opinion after being in band and orchestra my whole life and doing a short stint as a director (classroom control is much harder than the music!).

If anyone has a pro-tenor out there, I will trade you motorcycles and parts for it. I would like a P. Mauriat with rolled holes, please.



 

[antmanbee]

My vote is to get them a better horn and resell it for what you've got in it when they give it up after hi school.
Oboes, bassoons, english horns, saxophones, clarinets, etc have all settled on the Boehm fingering system and therefore all finger similarly.
Transition is not a big deal even though double reeds are harder, they ain't so bad and don't take as much wind.
Even though school furnished horns are usually ok, if they show a spark, i'd vote to upgrade. They may soar with a spirited horn and pro mouthpiece.
 That is my lowly opinion after being in band and orchestra my whole life and doing a short stint as a director (classroom control is much harder than the music!).

This is kind of what I was hoping to do. The problem from me is determining what is a better horn, if it is in need of repair, what is a fair price and if I can sell it if I need to without too much of a loss?

[ozarquebus]

Well, just like Guzzi values. Start trolling the want ads. Develop a feel.
Look for a Selmer Mark 6, Conn 10M, Buescher 400, King Super 20.
 That will show you the higher end of the classic Pro Models and start working you way down.
A used pro level Yamaha should be worth less than those.

Any of them may need $300 worth of work to get them into good shape since many of them are worn out and then sat for 30 years in the closet, but maybe not if you get lucky.

There are lots of articles online, but read them all since every one of them subject to personal preference or company support.

Me, I would focus on one model or two and persue them while becoming more knowledgable.

If you must have a simple answer without doing any of your own research, get the cheapest P. Mauriat you can find around 1500 and spend a couple three hundred more on a check up and pro mouthpiece.

[ozarquebus]

The way a pro goes looking for a horn is he has his own favorite mouthpiece already.
Music shops won't lend you mouthpieces or let you use theirs.
He goes to music shops in major cities and tries out horns used or sometimes new.
They negotiate a deal maybe with a trade in.

The rest of us pays our money takes our chances or does it the right way and starts with an old music teacher for lessons and advice in your hometown.

[Lannis]

Any of them may need $300 worth of work to get them into good shape since many of them are worn out and then sat for 30 years in the closet, but maybe not if you get lucky.

I'm just asking, but what makes saxophones (or similar instruments) different from sets of golf clubs, powerboats, sporting clay shotguns, top level audio systems, or nice hunting rifles?

In each of these categories, there are very many barely used, premium, mint condition items for sale, for reasons that we all know and understand ... (1) Some folks have lots of money, think that they're going to take on a time-intensive hobby, can't make the transition or commit the time, and sell the stuff.   Bargain for someone else!   (2) People buy upgrade sporting items, guns, boats, etc because they think it will make them more competitive, so they trade up every year to make sure they have "The Latest".   It's all in their head, but the shiny stuff makes them feel better. 

Anyhow, I would think that finding a lightly used instrument at any level would be more likely than finding one that's "worn out".   

Lannis

[ozarquebus]

 Lannis,

 The bottom line is playability and sound quality. 

That almost abstract thing is hard to achieve in a musical instrument and not purely reliant on good design and superior materials and correct assembly.

Good horns and great horns may appear identical and come from the same assembly line with consecutive serial number, but one will play easier and sound better than the other, sometimes surprisingly so.

 Good horns take an artisan's skill to produce with a long apprenticeship. Lots of tweaking and eyeball judgement in assembly and final preparation. It can't truly be taught, it must be learned by someone with talent for it. Some people think you can make a machine do this, but the pros don't think so.

 You can make a pro example of a golf club, a stereo, a rifle, a powerboat, with good designs and good materials and some journeyman machine or trained electronic skills. Machines make most everything.
 Building a pro saxophone would be more like having an master builder creating a target rifle by starting with a batch of six barrels, selecting the best shooting one, index it and hand bed it in the stock, add a harmonic balancer and test fire it and tweak it out for max accuracy while using custom loaded competition target ammo. You know that would cost extra.
A student model is like a Ruger off the rack.

Worn out examples of saxes would be if you are looking at old classic pro models that got a lot of playing.

They sometimes have the patina of an old lawn mower muffler, cosmetically, but can play great.

If you are looking at student and intermediate model horns, then what you are saying, is absolutely valid, even thought some cookie-cutter machine made saxes are getting surprisingly better.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

https://youtu.be/IMyqasy2Lco

[not-fishing]

My vote is to get them a better horn and resell it for what you've got in it when they give it up after hi school.

With my kids I was "all in" when it comes to playing music.  I bought my kids better instruments (clarinet, cello, Baritone Sax and another clarinet) which all of the kids kept.

Maybe it's because I played violin / viola into college.

The Yamaha Baritone Sax was the most expensive but that boy used to roll / carry it a flat mile to Junior High School.  After school he spent time as a Marine SDM Sniper in Afghanistan and is now working on his PHD in school.

I've never regretted the purchase of all the good instruments even though I really didn't have much at the time.

I purchased the clarinet's and Bari Sax from "Woodwinds and Brasswinds".  They were pretty good.

[ozarquebus]

Carrying a bari sax back and forth to school made him better no matter what.

[pebra]

Oh, who'd want to play the sax anyway? Would anybody listen?

From 8:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiVpxDuAhc

Or here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86BmSaXZMHw

Thank Adolphe, the guy on the left, here on the bench in his home town Dinant! (The other guy can't play any instrument, but loves listening.)

[ozarquebus]

That is the ultimate coolest saxophone oriented post. Adolphe Sax!

[Lannis]

Oh, who'd want to play the sax anyway? Would anybody listen?

From 8:15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiVpxDuAhc

That's some good saxophone work right there, especially the quick-change bit!

Lannis