Author Topic: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!  (Read 3934 times)

Offline twowheeladdict

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[NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« on: February 21, 2020, 07:38:11 PM »
That bike is insane!

I stopped in my local dealer on the way home from the Gulf and they told me to take the demo bike for a ride. The owner walked by and said "go have fun!" He knew I wasn't a buyer because of my back, but he knew I wanted to experience it.

Man oh man! What a ride!

The closest I can equate this bike to would be a 1000cc supersport in second gear once the RPMs are above 5000. Twist the throttle and GO! Close the throttle and slow down. Repeat.

It felt like I hit 90 in the blink of an eye. The more you twist the more it wants to pull your arms out!

It is definitely sprung for the twisties. Just lean it over and go.

I also played with it on the MSF course behind the dealership. Very controllable and nimble.

The dealer had the garage door to the showroom open and I crept into the showroom with feet on the pegs at maybe 1/2 mph. Very balanced. Two ladies saw me and smiled while the guy facing them had no clue I was behind him. :) I considered hitting the horn, but thought better of it.

If I were 30 years younger with my current income I would have one of these bikes.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 08:17:08 PM »
The power, especially the instant torque of an electric is addicting. For 10 large less than the Harley you can get a Zero, though..that's where my money would go.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 08:57:04 PM »
The power, especially the instant torque of an electric is addicting. For 10 large less than the Harley you can get a Zero, though..that's where my money would go.

I'd like to try a zero, but closest dealer is a couple hours away and doesnt have a demo bike. The fit and finish of the Harley is really top notch. 
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Offline LowRyter

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 10:10:10 PM »
Zero



I still don't know why they don't have a transmission.  Even a two speed.   You'd think that would extend the range on these things like overdrive for gas mileage.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 10:13:50 PM by LowRyter »
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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 10:10:10 PM »

Offline LowRyter

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 10:20:09 PM »
John L 
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2020, 06:01:45 AM »
I'd like to try a zero, but closest dealer is a couple hours away and doesnt have a demo bike. The fit and finish of the Harley is really top notch.

When I was out in SoCal helmet shopping over the holidays, the girl at Cycle Gear said she thought the Harley dealer carried Nolan helmets, so I stopped by. They were having a dog and pony show with a band, food, etc. A Livewire was sitting in the middle of all that.. and was being totally shunned.  I took the paper bag off my head  :evil: :grin: and looked it over, but I was the *only* one that even gave it a glance while I was there. Yes, fit and finish is top notch, as you would expect. For 30+ large, though..  (Not Guzzi content) it should be.
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2020, 07:09:42 AM »
When I was out in SoCal helmet shopping over the holidays, the girl at Cycle Gear said she thought the Harley dealer carried Nolan helmets, so I stopped by. They were having a dog and pony show with a band, food, etc. A Livewire was sitting in the middle of all that.. and was being totally shunned.  I took the paper bag off my head  :evil: :grin: and looked it over, but I was the *only* one that even gave it a glance while I was there. Yes, fit and finish is top notch, as you would expect. For 30+ large, though..  (Not Guzzi content) it should be.

Regarding the price, I always wondered how manufacturers came out with those numbers.  Of course what they do know is the Non-recurring costs for development and manufacturing set up, the material costs, the labor, costs.  So they know how much for how many units they need to recoup their costs. 

Then there is market value.  How many early adopters are there who will pay the premium to be the first kid on the block.  I know many guys that easily have $100,000 in motorcycles sitting in their garages.  The problem is that many of them like me aren't as nimble as we once were so actually riding a bike with sport ergonomics is out of the question. 

I wonder if Harley should have done a V-Rod electric bike.  Mmm.
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Offline Swedemoto

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2020, 07:47:40 AM »
I'd be interested to try electric, don't think I could ever afford one though. Not electric but I did just see an ad for the HD Bronx. I had not heard of this model before but I think they did a good job style wise. Anybody ridden one?

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2020, 08:25:43 AM »
NOPE

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2020, 08:42:52 AM »
Well Iíve learned over the past 67 years to never say never, so Iíll just say ďI donít think soĒ

Offline s1120

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2020, 09:27:17 AM »
Regarding the price, I always wondered how manufacturers came out with those numbers.  Of course what they do know is the Non-recurring costs for development and manufacturing set up, the material costs, the labor, costs.  So they know how much for how many units they need to recoup their costs. 

Then there is market value.  How many early adopters are there who will pay the premium to be the first kid on the block.  I know many guys that easily have $100,000 in motorcycles sitting in their garages.  The problem is that many of them like me aren't as nimble as we once were so actually riding a bike with sport ergonomics is out of the question. 

I wonder if Harley should have done a V-Rod electric bike.  Mmm.

Ya, I wondered that..  It will always be a loss leader. Anytime new tech comes out, they always loose a ton on everyone they sell. My guess is they priced it so they would not sell a ton of them..  High enough so the big wigs will spend it because its exclusive.. and a few normal riders might pony up the bucks, and do some real riding. If it was cheaper, they would sell more, and pretty much loose a ton if there are any real issues on real world use. Im sure its just a start of more trickle down models as time comes.. 
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2020, 09:49:01 AM »
I'd be interested to try electric, don't think I could ever afford one though. Not electric but I did just see an ad for the HD Bronx. I had not heard of this model before but I think they did a good job style wise. Anybody ridden one?

It's not out yet.  Later this year they are saying.  I will ride it, as well as the Pan America when they come out.  For me motorcycles are about experiences and I want to experience them all. 
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2020, 09:52:22 AM »
Ya, I wondered that..  It will always be a loss leader. Anytime new tech comes out, they always loose a ton on everyone they sell. My guess is they priced it so they would not sell a ton of them..  High enough so the big wigs will spend it because its exclusive.. and a few normal riders might pony up the bucks, and do some real riding. If it was cheaper, they would sell more, and pretty much loose a ton if there are any real issues on real world use. Im sure its just a start of more trickle down models as time comes..

Definitely.  Personally I would be happy with 1/2 the power and double the range in a lightweight dual sport version.  Something that could be refreshed by a bang of batteries in my toy hauler that are kept recharged by solar panels.  Charge the bank of batteries during the day while I am riding and charge the bike overnight off the batteries while I am sleeping. 
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Offline s1120

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2020, 10:32:24 AM »
Definitely.  Personally I would be happy with 1/2 the power and double the range in a lightweight dual sport version.  Something that could be refreshed by a bang of batteries in my toy hauler that are kept recharged by solar panels.  Charge the bank of batteries during the day while I am riding and charge the bike overnight off the batteries while I am sleeping.

I think something along the lines as the old honda CL350 size/capability.  Something on the smaller size, but not too small for real people. Good on streets, and back roads, but like a good dirt or two track road once in a while.  As you said... take some power, and give some range, and it would be a fun beat around town bike. I wouldnt want it as a only bike...  But so many times Im just going across town to go to the store. Maybe a bang out the back roads when I have a hour to blow, and dont need, or really want to drag out the big bike.  Toss a rack on the back, and some panners of some sort to carry your stuff home.. 
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2020, 10:42:32 AM »
I think something along the lines as the old honda CL350 size/capability.  Something on the smaller size, but not too small for real people. Good on streets, and back roads, but like a good dirt or two track road once in a while.  As you said... take some power, and give some range, and it would be a fun beat around town bike. I wouldnt want it as a only bike...  But so many times Im just going across town to go to the store. Maybe a bang out the back roads when I have a hour to blow, and dont need, or really want to drag out the big bike.  Toss a rack on the back, and some panners of some sort to carry your stuff home..

I always put my bikes away with a full tank of gas.  Here in the humid southeast it is a necessity.  With an electric bike that would be one less thing to do.  I wear hearing protection from the wind so no motor noise is not a big deal for me. 
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Offline cliffrod

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2020, 10:58:47 AM »
Like so many best new ideas, as soon as it hits the market it's obsolete battery technology.   

If they can update it by adding some corn to the mix, maybe this time the corn won't destroy all it touches in the system...-  https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/corny-lithium-ion-batteries-could-222300734.html
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Offline Huzo

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2020, 12:09:34 PM »
Zero



I still don't know why they don't have a transmission.  Even a two speed.   You'd think that would extend the range on these things like overdrive for gas mileage.
Because if you halve the rpm, you have to double the torque.
Work is by definition torque x rpm. So the two have to multiply out to be the same.
Your gas (petrol) engine has a point  where the power versus fuel flow, is at itís optimum and that is whereís youíre aiming by using the gearbox, also thereís a practical limit to the rpm.
Within reason, this doesnít apply to an an electric motor.
The motor is fundamentally a rotating magnet, so the torque is not dependent on rpm.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 12:14:03 PM by Huzo »

Offline bassa99

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2020, 12:10:55 PM »
A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2020, 12:21:05 PM »
The Harley offering is simply stunning in a way the Zero is not.  But that's subjective.  What's not is the price.  They are thinking a few years ahead.  A 15,000 and 20,000 offering does not look expensive next to a 30,000 offering.  Say and think what you may, but this is a basic business school lesson.  Wharton teaches this stuff all day to the grad students.
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Offline Huzo

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2020, 12:23:38 PM »
A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?
Gravity as such is not what slows the bike, gravity acts vertically, so on on level ground there is no vector assisting or retarding forward movement, it does however contribute to frictional losses due to weight.
There are other contributing factors, wind resistance etc...Without these factors, the mass would continue at the same speed and direction.
Also I donít know in this case, but the motor can be configured to act as a generator when on overrun and put charge back into the battery, in which case youíd be doing work charging the battery, so thereíd be a retardation to forward motion...(braking).

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2020, 12:26:42 PM »
Well said.  Several of the electric offerings allow the user to dial in the amount of "re-gen" they desire, which can mimic to some degree compression braking.
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Offline Motormike

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2020, 01:03:59 PM »
That bike is insane!
I stopped in my local dealer on the way home from the Gulf and they told me to take the demo bike for a ride. The owner walked by and said "go have fun!" He knew I wasn't a buyer because of my back, but he knew I wanted to experience it.
Man oh man! What a ride!
The closest I can equate this bike to would be a 1000cc supersport in second gear once the RPMs are above 5000. Twist the throttle and GO! Close the throttle and slow down. Repeat.
It felt like I hit 90 in the blink of an eye. The more you twist the more it wants to pull your arms out!
It is definitely sprung for the twisties. Just lean it over and go.
I also played with it on the MSF course behind the dealership. Very controllable and nimble.
The dealer had the garage door to the showroom open and I crept into the showroom with feet on the pegs at maybe 1/2 mph. Very balanced. Two ladies saw me and smiled while the guy facing them had no clue I was behind him. :) I considered hitting the horn, but thought better of it.
If I were 30 years younger with my current income I would have one of these bikes.
The bad news is, after your 20 minute demo, they had to plug the bike into a charger for 6 hours!

Offline Huzo

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2020, 01:17:23 PM »
The bad news is, after your 20 minute demo, they had to plug the bike into a charger for 6 hours!
Thatís shocking economy..
It has sparked my interest though... :popcorn:
When I get ohm, I might charge down to my dealer and check out the current range..
Iím starting to feel really amped by the whole concept, I canít imagine Iíll switch to electron power, but who knows ?
A change could be in the future..
Iím alternating between a gentle transition or going direct to spark power..
I can see it now..
A bloke is stopped by the side of the road with a dead Live Wire..
ďWhatís up mate..Ē?
ďBikes cut out...Ē
ďAny ideas whatís wrong with it..?Ē
ďYeah, itís got no spark, Ďdoes it every time after 40 minutes...Ē :rolleyes: :bike-037:
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 01:25:16 PM by Huzo »

Offline Motormike

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2020, 01:20:58 PM »
Thatís shocking economy..
It has sparked my interest though... :popcorn:
When I get ohm, I might charge down to my dealer and check out the current range..
Iím starting to feel really amped by the whole concept, I canít imagine Iíll switch to electron power, but who knows ?
A change could be in the future..
Iím alternating between a gentle transition or going direct to spark power..

Resistance is futile!

Offline Huzo

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2020, 01:22:53 PM »
Resistance is futile!
Read a little more closely..
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 01:23:30 PM by Huzo »

Offline Huzo

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2020, 01:27:38 PM »
Hey..!
Itís a bit of a turn around, I once had a bike that stopped if you got water in the ignition, this one will start all by itself if it gets wet..!
Leave it parked in the rain and when you come out itís gone..!

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2020, 01:37:06 PM »
Resistance is futile!
Sorry, I just got it..!
Good one.. :thumb: :popcorn:

Offline LowRyter

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2020, 01:45:09 PM »
Because if you halve the rpm, you have to double the torque.
Work is by definition torque x rpm. So the two have to multiply out to be the same.
Your gas (petrol) engine has a point  where the power versus fuel flow, is at itís optimum and that is whereís youíre aiming by using the gearbox, also thereís a practical limit to the rpm.
Within reason, this doesnít apply to an an electric motor.
The motor is fundamentally a rotating magnet, so the torque is not dependent on rpm.

After I wrote that it occurred to me torque is instantaneous so the pull on the motor would likely cause the power drain than RPMs.   I also considered that there might be friction losses.  But there must be some limitations because there is gearing involved even for one speed.  I did see the Porsche is going to a 2 speed on it's 700HP electric car for more top end speed.  I was amazed and confused that this Porsdhe transmission is considered a technical innovation. 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/04/cars/porsche-taycan-electric-car/index.html
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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2020, 02:03:00 PM »
Used electrics are now coming on the market with prices down to around $7000 for the older ones (electric trials bikes cheaper). Low miles on all of them -- I guess people  don't ride them much due to range anxiety.

I built my own lead-acid 48v electric bike in 2008 using a TA-125 roller. Only a 12-mile range (got me to work and back) and great fun with the massive low-speed torque. I could switch on regen which did help with braking (about the engine braking effect you'd get with a small 4-stroke) and that extended the range a bit on the flat, a lot on hills. I probably put 2000 miles on it over two summer-commute seasons. Then the cheap batteries were toast and I parked it until I could afford Li-ion, which hasn't yet happened.

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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: [NGC] Test Rode the Livewire, OMG!
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2020, 02:58:14 PM »
A question that I have pondered is with an IC engine one can use engine braking and lower gear to slow the bike. How does electric bike feel when letting off power? Will it slow down speed or just continue on until gravity slows it?

Regenerative braking is like engine braking. If you set it to max regenerative braking it will slow you down without brakes and recharge the battery
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