Author Topic: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi  (Read 2523 times)

Offline ohiorider

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Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« on: May 06, 2020, 09:30:18 AM »
I'm bike poor at the moment, but one never knows when something will come along.  Like to be prepared. :grin:
My only experience was riding a Baby Breva for approx 100 miles, and I thought Guzzi had geared it quite low.  Ran good, though.

For those of you who own or have owned both a Heron head V7 vs newer V7 with hemi head, main difference you observe in how the two engines compare.  Low end torque, ability to rev, etc.  Overall rideability? 

When did the V7 switch from Heron head design?  And when did Guzzi begin installing double wall pipes on the small block?

Thanks,

Bob

(Am I correct in calling the new small block a 'hemi-head' engine?)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 09:32:40 AM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
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Offline chrisfer

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2020, 10:13:03 AM »
Hemi-head (and double wall pipes I think) start on the V7 III, only (easy) way for Guzzi to better adjust mixture and pass Euro IV standards.

Hemi runs little better, more torque at high rpm and not less before : https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/moto-guzzi/2017-moto-guzzi-v7-iii-stone-review.html/attachment/081717-2017-moto-guzzi-v7-iii-stone-hp-torque-dyno
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 10:18:08 AM by chrisfer »
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2020, 10:34:22 AM »
I feel like I've written this up so many times I should be able to find it with a search and repost, but of course I can't at this moment lol.

We have both.

I love both.

If I could have ONLY ONE or if my Heron head was killed tomorrow - I'd replace it with a Hemi head.

That's the reader's digest version.

The longer version is that I love my Mk I (2013, first generation of the single throttle body V7 Stone).

It is less refined, less powerful (not that either is a power house) and generally a little rougher around the edges than the MK II or MK III versions.

The MK II (V7II) was a one year only model (2016) and added both the 6-speed and ABS/TC to the Heron head for its last year of production. There may be some tuning changes as hp/trque claims are slightly different front the MKI but nothing major. The Stornello was a one-year only version that is unique in both look and exhaust and mapping.

The MK III (V7III) started debuted in 2017 along with the V9 and marks the start of the Hemi head motors. Many MANY little things have been changed on these models from the heads to the instrument clusters to the foot controls to the seat-to-peg ratio (slightly longer) to the rear shock angle. Many of these models have aluminum or carbon fiber fenders and side covers instead of the mostly plastic ones on the earlier years (though there are still plastic fender models like the Stone and Special). I personally find everything is just a little nicer/better etc. on these models and they punch above the previous models in terms of RWHP.

The MK I's dyno'd around 40 rwhp, while these things are more like 48 rwhp. There's a definite difference and though it's not make or brake, it's there for sure.

The tank capacity, looks, feel, etc of all of these models make them a pleasure and I love having two of them in the fleet with no desire to change.


I will throw one more thought out though. I demo'd the V9 and the V85 a couple of times last year and was COMPLETELY GOBSMACKED surprised by the V9. It felt like a physically smaller/lighter version of my old Jackal. It was a smallblock in chassis with a punch that felt much MUCH closer to a big block (not CARC big block, but at least that of an 1100 Cali).

If my beloved Stone was lost to me tomorrow for some unforseen reason I would IMMEDIATELY find a V9 Bobber or Bobber Sport and switch out the tank/seat for something off a V7 and Bob's your Uncle, it would be PERFECT for me.

YMMV - hope that helps.



« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 12:22:58 PM by Kev m »
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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 11:54:07 AM »
Thanks for the info, guys.  Copied and pasted to my Guzzi folder.

Bob
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
New:  2021 Kawasaki W800

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 11:54:07 AM »

Offline MMRanch

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2020, 01:48:41 PM »
Kev. that white looks really good on a V-7 !  :thumb:
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 02:17:18 PM »
Thanks for the info, guys.  Copied and pasted to my Guzzi folder.

Bob

 :thumb:

That might be the only model Stone (other than the black ones) that ever came with matching tank and fenders.

It's funny I remember back in 2012 when I heard about the upcoming new model and ordered it in white. I had my formerly black Jackal at the time that I'd painted with tins and sidecovers white.

When I finally saw this I remember how I was struck by the similarities in overall coloring with what I had done to my Jackal over the years.

But yes that's one of the many reasons I really enjoy the Stone.
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Offline sign216

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 04:40:43 PM »
I'm a Heron owner, and I love it that the Guzzi Heron was the last on the planet.  A real throw-back.  For a while Heron heads were the thing.  Used in expensive cars (Jaguar, etc) and military aircraft.  But combustion theory decided that there were better options.

Honestly, I'm not sure they were right.  Heron heads produce good real-world torque at low to moderate speeds.  Where people really ride.

I will admit that the later versions of the V7 have upgrades to the transmission, oxy sensors, etc, so that is an attraction.

But I say embrace the difference and go Heron!

Joe
09 Guzzi V7C
58 BMW R50
65 Gilera 106
69 Benelli 350

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Offline jas67

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 05:10:34 PM »
I have one of each, and would definitely choose a hemi over heron.
That said, a heron headed bike, being older, could be had for less money.

I would certainly go for a V7II (heron) or V7III (hemi), just to get ABS, which I think is good peace of mind.
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Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2020, 09:24:15 PM »
I went from a 2010 V7 Cafe Classic to the 2018 V7III Carbon and while the Cafe Classic was a beautiful machine the Carbon is night and day different to ride.  The V7III for me is just as modern as any other standard out there. 
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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2020, 06:37:45 PM »
How is the suspension, compliance-wise, on our less than stellar roads here in the NE USA?  Winter puts a bunch of frost heave in them.  It's almost like a few hundred feet of road gets pushed to a point where it rises up and creates a hump.  It's Ohio, not all the roads but more than a few.

Seriously, I recall early reports on the initial V7 small blocks saying the suspension was extremely stiff.  Is that still so, or is the suspension more compliant on, say, the V7 III?

Bob

EDIT (for a 165 pound rider?)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 06:38:25 PM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2020, 07:20:19 PM »
How is the suspension, compliance-wise, on our less than stellar roads here in the NE USA?  Winter puts a bunch of frost heave in them.  It's almost like a few hundred feet of road gets pushed to a point where it rises up and creates a hump.  It's Ohio, not all the roads but more than a few.

Seriously, I recall early reports on the initial V7 small blocks saying the suspension was extremely stiff.  Is that still so, or is the suspension more compliant on, say, the V7 III?

Bob

EDIT (for a 165 pound rider?)

Again, the III is better. How much? Depends on who you ask.

I changed the shocks in the I, but could have lived with them.

I have no plans to change them on the III.
Current Fleet

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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2020, 07:27:07 PM »
Reason I was asking about the V7 small blocks is that ....... I still own a lovely 2008 1200 Sport that has simply become too heavy for me to handle in and out of the garage.  Thinking, since no one responded to an ad for this bike a year ago, that maybe it would make sense to trade it to a Guzzi dealer that would know how to market the 1200S. 

For me, the logical bike to trade for would be a small block V7III.

Am I going to do this?  I don't know.

Having turned 77 in January of this year, does it make sense to even bother trading to a more rideable bike?  I still ride my BMW R100GS, and just picked up a really nice 2016 Triumph T120 that is really easy for me to ride.

My issue is ,,,,, what to do with the too-heavy-for-me Guzzi 1200 Sport?
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2020, 07:53:09 PM »
Trust me when I say that I loved the way my B11 actually functioned.

The smallblocks, even the V9, don't have the quite the same punch or long legs on the highway.

But they are magnificent in another, slightly more sublime way.

If you can live without the punch they can do almost everything and feel MUCH lighter.

If the punch is important the V9 is about halfway between the two (V7 and the 2V CARC).

Honestly I have no regrets and the only time I "have to" choose the RK over the V7 is if I anticipate say one or more 500+ mile days.
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Offline Dave Swanson

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2020, 07:59:38 PM »


My issue is ,,,,, what to do with the too-heavy-for-me Guzzi 1200 Sport?

Float an ad out there in the WG Swapmeet and the MGNOC classifieds that you would entertain a trade - 1200S for a V7 and see if anything happens.  It wont cost you anything.
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
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1974 Eldo
1977 Convert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
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Offline jas67

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2020, 09:08:39 PM »
How is the suspension, compliance-wise, on our less than stellar roads here in the NE USA?  Winter puts a bunch of frost heave in them.  It's almost like a few hundred feet of road gets pushed to a point where it rises up and creates a hump.  It's Ohio, not all the roads but more than a few.

Seriously, I recall early reports on the initial V7 small blocks saying the suspension was extremely stiff.  Is that still so, or is the suspension more compliant on, say, the V7 III?

Bob

EDIT (for a 165 pound rider?)

The stock suspension on the V7-III is WAY better than the stock suspension on either the 2009 V7 Classic, or 2013 V7 Special I owned.
I'm only 10# heavier than you.   I think the stock shocks on the III will be good for you.
2017 V7III Special
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2007 Vespa GTS250
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2020, 09:09:46 PM »
My Man, you live in Ohio, home to one of the best Guzzi dealers around, who happens to have smoked good deals on small blocks.  I bought a v9 Roamer for $5500!   It is an amazingly satisfying ride.  I really enjoy my B1100,  but the v9 is much more fun, comfortable and easy to ride.   Get on one, I think you would be impressed.
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2020, 10:57:36 PM »
I'm a Heron owner, and I love it that the Guzzi Heron was the last on the planet.  A real throw-back.  For a while Heron heads were the thing.  Used in expensive cars (Jaguar, etc) and military aircraft.  But combustion theory decided that there were better options.

Honestly, I'm not sure they were right.  Heron heads produce good real-world torque at low to moderate speeds.  Where people really ride.

I will admit that the later versions of the V7 have upgrades to the transmission, oxy sensors, etc, so that is an attraction.

But I say embrace the difference and go Heron!

Joe

Iím with you on this.  The Heron is just quirky, odd and cool.   Go heron.
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Offline chrisfer

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2020, 01:16:01 AM »
I bought a v9 Roamer for $5500!   It is an amazingly satisfying ride.
I would not hesitate with such an interesting offer. Even if it means changing the saddle and the tank to regain the appearance of a V7...
2022 V7 850 Stone - 2019 V7 III Carbon - 2004 V11 RossoCorsa - 2002 V11 Le Mans - 1995 750 Nevada

Offline sign216

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2020, 06:18:32 AM »
Iím with you on this.  The Heron is just quirky, odd and cool.   Go heron.

SmithSwede,

Thanks for the support.  In the internet world, a little slap on the back is enough.  And for all you nay-sayers, who must have this year's hot new bike, with it's hot new features, I point you to Clive Trickey's book Racing Engine Preparation which states "On most push-rod OHV engines, concave or dish-crown pistons give better combustion characteristics than flat or raised crown pistons."   



Of course that book was published in 1970.

But some of us remember the '70's.

Joe


P.S.  Wikipedia provides:  " The Heron head has proved even more thermodynamically efficient than the hemispherical head."

« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 06:41:43 AM by sign216 »
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2020, 06:43:52 AM »
Meh, old for old's sake is just old.


Man $5500 for a Roamer..... Crap.... Must, not, spend small piece of wife's Land Rover deposit savings.... Must not.... Must....
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2020, 08:08:42 AM »
One of the reasons I bought my first Guzzi was because of the Heron head.  Never had one and wanted the experience.  It's been fine.  Why not, life's short.  I'll do old for old's sake-it won't kill me (will it?)
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Offline Dave Swanson

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2020, 09:31:08 AM »
My Man, you live in Ohio, home to one of the best Guzzi dealers around, who happens to have smoked good deals on small blocks.  I bought a v9 Roamer for $5500!   It is an amazingly satisfying ride.  I really enjoy my B1100,  but the v9 is much more fun, comfortable and easy to ride.   Get on one, I think you would be impressed.

When did you snag this?   
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
1977 Convert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
2004 V11S - Eraldo-ized
2016 Griso SE - Beetle-ized
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Offline sign216

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2020, 04:06:16 PM »
One of the reasons I bought my first Guzzi was because of the Heron head.  Never had one and wanted the experience.  It's been fine.  Why not, life's short.  I'll do old for old's sake-it won't kill me (will it?)

The Heron head is named for Samuel Heron, a Brit who came up with it developing aircraft engines during WWII.  I've been trying to get a copy of his book Development of Aircraft Engines and Aviation Fuels, written w Schlaifer and published by Harvard Univ in 1950, but the prices are crazy.

Who would have thought that anyone would care about such an esoteric text? 

And to boot, I think Guzzi was the last company to use Heron heads.  It's a living legend. 
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Offline Dave Swanson

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2020, 04:16:27 PM »
Here's to the last of the line for the Heron!  Long may you live!   :bow:



« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 04:38:43 PM by Dave Swanson »
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
1977 Convert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
2004 V11S - Eraldo-ized
2016 Griso SE - Beetle-ized
2021 V7-850 Stone Centenario
2022 V85TT Guardia d'Onore

MGNOC L-780

Offline circlip

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2020, 04:45:19 PM »
Wasn't the last of the line my 2016 V7 II?
Since I foolishly sold off the last of my Morini's 20 years ago, I'm reliving my past thru that heron head.
Looking for a heron head small block
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Offline Dave Swanson

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2020, 04:51:45 PM »
Wasn't the last of the line my 2016 V7 II?


Quite right.

Mine is the last of the 5 speed Herons.   :grin:
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 04:52:55 PM by Dave Swanson »
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
1977 Convert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
2004 V11S - Eraldo-ized
2016 Griso SE - Beetle-ized
2021 V7-850 Stone Centenario
2022 V85TT Guardia d'Onore

MGNOC L-780

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2020, 07:06:47 PM »
Yours is a 15?
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Offline Dave Swanson

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2020, 07:10:36 PM »
Yours is a 15?

If you are referring to mine, yes. 
Dave Swanson - Northern IL
1935 GTS
1968 V700
1973 V7 Sport
1974 Eldo
1977 Convert
1977 Lemans 1.2
1980 T3 California
1993 1000S - Sparklehorse
2004 V11S - Eraldo-ized
2016 Griso SE - Beetle-ized
2021 V7-850 Stone Centenario
2022 V85TT Guardia d'Onore

MGNOC L-780

Offline circlip

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Re: Out of curiosity - V7 heron or V7 hemi
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2020, 10:56:48 AM »
Good point, yours is the last of the 5 speed herons.
And it looks great!
Looking for a heron head small block
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