ZERO electric motorcycles starting to get practical

[Adan]

Electric motorcycles have less and less distance per charge as the battery wears out.  The achievable trip per full charge degrades over time until it reaches a point where the battery must be replaced to achieve a pragmatic distance again. 

There has been no detectable loss of range in my Empulse in 2.5 years of use.  Of course it must have lost something, battery capacity only goes in one direction.  But it's below my ability to detect.  So in theory you're correct but in practice it seems like the battery is going to be more robust than just about everything else on the bike.

[swordds]

I didn't mind the price, I really, really wanted one and I really, really wanted the quietness for my rides but my typical ride is 120 - 200+ miles and I  don't commute so for me the only issue is range. I would need to be confident that I could go 300 miles either with extra batteries that I could carry with me or with the ability to recharge during a "lunch" break (say within 45-60 min).  They are close, perhaps another two or three years.

[canuguzzi]

When I spoke to their rep, the issue that came up was the chargers. The battery technology is there but the chargers haven't kept up so adding more battery capacity doesn't work if the charging times are much longer.

I see the point, if you had a 300-400 mile range but it takes longer than the available non running time to charge it, it doesn't make sense. You could buy extra battery modules but that is a very expensive way to go.

They donhave the very fast charger system coming out this spring so you could charge during lunch and extend the practical day to day range to exceed about 250 miles easily.

I'm with you on the quiet part. The less exhaust noise the better and none is OK.

[canuck750]

These look to be very interesting bikes. It is amazing how quickly the technology has advanced in a few short years. This is the first 'new' bike that I find interesting in a very long time. For city riding I think this would be a great option.

I am not about to dive in to purchasing an electric car, yet, but what Tesla has done to bring the eclectic car to the forefront is admirable. Yes Tesla is subsidized but all new radical technologies / infrastructure requires government stimulus to get the ball moving. Governments handed out huge amounts of cash, land and royalties to the railways at the dawn of rail travel. Governments poured billions into highway systems, airports, canals and ports, aerospace, communications. One of the biggest benefactors of government money is the petroleum industry. I would like to know how much western governments spend keeping order and propping up despots to keep the oil flowing. I see Tesla as a springboard for a radical change in the automotive and energy business. If North Americans get behind the technology it could be a game changer or we ignore the opportunity and the Chinese will grab the initiative and in ten years we will be buying our electric cars from them.

[canuguzzi]

^ Yes. One way or another, electric vehicles are going to keep getting built and evolving and the opportunities are here now. Someone will make the huge push.

There was cash for clunkers of all things so the subsidies for electric motorcycles seem ok.  I don't see E-Motorcycles as being a thing only for the very well do to as is true of the Tesla, some of Zero's models are close to the price range of some basic or entry motorcycles.

Also note that electric motorcycles have come down in price for some models, gas fueled bikes haven't come down in price for a long time. Gasoline too, will eventually go back up in price and when it does, there will be some tidy profits to make up and no one is going to leave that on the table.

E-Motorcycles are just another type of bike for us. Choices are good.

[rob-mg]

I think that some of you are too focused on range. Either the range works or it doesn't.

If it does, the questions are price, depreciation and support.

The other key question is fun. That's totally subjective. People for whom the sound and feel of a traditional engine is important won't like these bikes. People who like the idea of immediate and highly responsive torque, and can live without noise, heat, vibration and engine maintenance, will love a Zero. Forget commuting - if you're 16 to 24 and into dirt bikes, a Zero seems to be pretty much a no-brainer - which is of course Zero's target market.

As for price, I believe that it is actually pretty competitive. I priced a Zero against a V7 II and a Triumph Street Triple, and concluded that it was pretty much a wash.

Re support, I'd be OK if I was in California or had a dealer who was seriously supportive of the technology. In New York City, where I am, Zero has had problems identifying a dealer that will support the bikes in a serious way. It's important to understand that mechanics trained to support traditional bikes are not trained to support electric bikes.

Concern, or not, about loss of value depends on one's financial situation. For me, I have the distinct feeling, having followed electric bike developments for some time, that selling a five year old electric bike is like selling a five year old computer, only worse due to rapid developments in electronic vehicles. Given my economic situation, this is a real issue for me. May not be for you.

[Testarossa]

In the USA, Internal Combustion cars, trucks, and tractors only completely displaced horses & mules in the 1940s, when the internal combustion vehicles finally became cheaper to buy and maintain than horses & mules, buggies & wagons. 

In the USA, Steam locomotives were replaced in the 1950s by Diesel-Electric locomotives, once the diesels became powerful enough and economical enough to replace the steam-powered locomotives.

Those changes happened because the technology and economics made it happen. On their own.  No subsidies.

No subsidies?  Not quite true. Beginning around 1912, in the effort to provide lots of oil to drive warships (ours and Britain's), Congress created generous subsidies for oil drilling. Those subsidies are still in place and have made gasoline and diesel significantly cheaper than they would have been otherwise. That accelerated the replacement of horses and coal-fired steam by years. It's also true that government support for road improvement accelerated both transitions. Don't get me started on stealing land from the Indians and giving it to railroad companies as the driver for building railroads in the first place.

Fact is that most technology-infrastructure changes depend at the beginning on significant government subsidies. Until the advent of the 707, airlines depended on airmail contracts and anti-competitive regulation to maintain thin profitability, not to mention that all their product R&D was covered by the military and NACA. Internet started as a computer communication between government labs. The privately owned electric grid still depends on government-mandated, profit-guaranteed monopolies. Development of nuclear power was ENTIRELY paid for by taxpayers.

Don't single out electric transportation for scorn.

[Aaron D.]

I may well go electric for my retirement car, as I'd be able to use it for short hops without regard to warmup, no oil change, no transmission, on and on. Maybe a bike too but not as a tourer-not yet.

I expect electric and self driving plus ride service to be a big deal by the time I'm 80, maybe sooner. A lot of older folks will become independent-and maybe the delivery of groceries and meds will be revolutionized too. There sure are a lot of us geezer wannabees in the wings..

[rocker59]

Don't single out electric transportation for scorn.

Not scorning it.  Just saying that electric vehicles are a long way from being competitive with the internal combustion kind.

[charlie b]

I'd love a good electric bike, and car for that matter.  But, right now they are very limited, as some have pointed out.  Would still be good for short commutes.

FYI, a lot of information people have about the batteries and their performance is wrong.  The newer ones charge fairly fast if the available power and proper charger are used.  Typically this means a special charging station, not just a 110V outlet.  220V at least and 30-50A.  1-2hr charge times are easily done with current technology and will get better.

Current batteries do not lose much capacity over time these days, and the curve is more flat than linear downward.  Typical is to have over 90% capacity available right up until failure.  Many of these batteries will last for many years, even in daily use.

Overall cost is a fuel vs battery thing.  How much does the fuel cost over the ownership period vs how much does a battery pack replacement cost.  Not there yet, IMHO.

Technology is gaining rapidly.  As others pointed out a bike bought now will be eclipsed in technology in just a few years, making it's resale value near zero.

What should be happening is a standardization of the battery pack voltage and physical dimensions/connections.  Then you could buy a vehicle now and in 5 years get a "modern" pack to replace it.  The 'bonus' to this might be a battery swap stations instead of charging stations.  Stop at the station, swap discharged battery for charged one, pay small fee, and go.  But, right now too many companies want to make themselves the "one to follow" instead of being compatible.

[rocker59]

Overall cost is a fuel vs battery thing.  How much does the fuel cost over the ownership period vs how much does a battery pack replacement cost.  Not there yet, IMHO.

don't forget the cost of the electricity used to recharge the battery over its life.

What should be happening is a standardization of the battery pack voltage and physical dimensions/connections.  Then you could buy a vehicle now and in 5 years get a "modern" pack to replace it.  The 'bonus' to this might be a battery swap stations instead of charging stations.  Stop at the station, swap discharged battery for charged one, pay small fee, and go.  But, right now too many companies want to make themselves the "one to follow" instead of being compatible.

If there was a rack of exchange batteries at the gas station, next to the rack of exchange LP gas tanks, that would be pretty cool.

[Testarossa]

The 'bonus' to this might be a battery swap stations instead of charging stations.  Stop at the station, swap discharged battery for charged one, pay small fee, and go.

Problem with this is the low specific energy of the batteries. That is, energy content per pound. If the bike does 6 miles per kWh, it can go about 100 miles on a 200-lb battery -- more like on four 50-lb batteries. Practically speaking, you might be able to replace them one unit at a time, getting half a mile of range for every pound of battery you lift into the bike.

At some point we'll have "flow" batteries, in which you drain the discharged battery fluid and top off with fully-charged fluid. Then recharging will be very much filling up with gasoline (except for the extra step of draining). That would dramatically affect the design of the bike, of course.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

[Bisbonian]

I did a test ride on the Empulse a couple of months ago, since Victory bought Brammo.

The overall size of the motorcycle was tiny, I was quite surprised at how small it was.

Unlike the Zero, the Empulse uses a multi-speed transmission. I think it was a 6 speed but we were advised not to start out in first and to leave it in second or third (can't remember which).

The ride itself was unremarkable other for the silence, I was surrounded by big Victory cruisers on this ride so I had plenty of aural stimulation. It was difficult to get used to not pulling in the clutch lever when coming to a stop, since the motor doesn't run at idle the clutch is not needed.

At first I thought an electric motorcycle with a clutch and transmission would be a bonus. In reality I found it not to be useful for the short ride I was on. Not only was a 6-speed transmission not necessary, the bike I rode did not have a slick shifting transmission and it felt more like a chore to shift than anything else. My take on the transmission was that the bike could do with 4 fewer gears, a high and a low for highway and city would be great.

I came suitably impressed, enough so that I went to the Victory website to see how these are priced. I assumed that now Victory was in charge the cost would have gone down. I was mistaken. Base price on the Empulse was $20k.

At the moment I drive a plug-in hybrid. I have solar on my house which gives me a net positive charge, I make more power than I use in a year. If I worked in town I would be seriously interested in an electric motorcycle, or electric car, but alas at the moment I don't and the only electric vehicle that could cover my commute is a Tesla. I don't make that sort of money.

I hope for costs to come down, at some point these will be viable for me and I have no problems with driving one. I don't expect an electric vehicle to charge at the speed a gas tank can be filled. Quick charging is harsh for the battery so on my car I use the slowest, and cheapest, level of charging with the regular 110 volt plug. 90% of my riding is probably within the capability of the electric bikes being offered right now. I have 3 motorcycles in my fleet, it would be easy enough to replace one of those with an electric version and then just use them for different purposes, sort of like I do now anyway.

[rocker59]

At some point we'll have "flow" batteries, in which you drain the discharged battery fluid and top off with fully-charged fluid. Then recharging will be very much filling up with gasoline (except for the extra step of draining). That would dramatically affect the design of the bike, of course.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

Interesting.  That would be what electric needs to get seriously into the game.

Electric already has internal combustion beat on maintenance, something internal combustion had over livestock and steam.

If a person could pull into a station and drain/add pre-charged electrolyte affordably, that would be revolutionary.  Electric being able to be "refueled" at existing infrastructure that supports internal combustion would be a win-win for everyone involved. 

[pikipiki]

Interesting facts I notice about electric vehicles.
Size to power Electric motors are more powerful than anything except a rocket. (the size weight problem comes around lugging batteries)
Electric tech centres about making batteries more efficient - the more efficient a battery is made the lower its internal resistance, the lower its internal resistance the more power it can produce.
considering internal combustion, more fuel efficiency means lethargic and slow.
in the electric world high efficiency means more range, more economy, more speed and more acceleration. not all at same time but its win, win, win, win.

[pikipiki]

I imagine a future Electric bike looking something like a Guzzi Callifonia with air cooled batteries.
pull into the E-station grab the pull handle one one of the battery heads, twist turn, lift and plug it into the used battery slot in the E-station. Dispenser turns its battery wheel a few degrees and a freshly charged battery appears in place of your depleted one. Lift that one out. Plug in, push, turn and click ready to go again.

[charlie b]

"flow" batteries.  Kinda like fuel cells.  Always liked them.  Easy to make hydrogen.  Refill like propane (only more explosive :)  ).  Hard to store it.

A guy here in this area worked for Sandia.  Just for fun he put a fuel cell and electric motors in a Corvette (C3).  Worked like a charm, but, he could only drive 100mi from home since no one has a filling station.

[Doppelgaenger]

I rode one and was very impressed with the power and just the purity of riding a bike where all you have to worry about is the throttle. I would buy one tomorrow but for a few issues

1. too expensive still, yes the cost of ownership and operation is significantly lower than any gas bike, but...

2. Range is still a bit short. That wouldn't be an issue in of itself except that the bike really won't charge quickly. I would't be able to commute to work and then come home, eat breakfast and go anywhere. It takes 8 hours to charge from a regular socket, less if you daisy-chain their high power chargers, but still a dealbreaker. If it had something like a 300 mile range I would take the plunge.

In the end, I know I'll get an electric bike someday, but there is a technology leap that needs to happen first, or rapid chargers need to become available.

Also, 300,000 miles is when the battery drops to 80% capacity. Zero is VERY responsive and active in getting you test rides, I suggest you try it just for fun.

[canuguzzi]

Zero has a new charge tank due out this spring which allows you to use the fast car chargers in garages and charge locations, going to a long lunch for a significant charge recovery.

I agree, a 300 mile endurance puts an electric motorcycle into the realm of daily and even weekend riding use. A 250 mile day with some reserve is easily a good days worth if casual non-hard core riding for a non touring type motorcycle.

The lack of an ST or ADV fairing option is what stops me from running down to just buy one. It could be an abbreviated style like on the Versus or the BMW 800s, once you get used to fairing protection its hard to go back to a naked bike.

Maybe the fairing would even clean up the aerodynamics to offset the additional weight, especially at higher speeds.

[Muzz]

I have been amazed at how the technology has improved at the Isle of Man zero bike race that they have. I saw an interview with Bruce Anstey and he was expressing how torquey and fast they were. Considering that the riders get very little practice time on them their times are now very fast, and appear to be getting faster each year.

As far as the batteries go, I am interested to see if the aluminium/graphite batteries can get up to being competitive as far as capacity goes. Weight and charging rates are certainly very good.

[Doppelgaenger]

Zero might be the bike to buy for your average guy...

But the Lightning LS-218... Dear God I want one of those. 200HP, 168 ft lbs of torque...

Everyone who rides one nearly craps their pants when they go anywhere near the throttle, that would be worth every penny to blow away all the gas bikes and electric naysayers. It's interesting how much most people hate on electric bikes when most of them have never ridden one before. I'd like to see MotoGP let electric bikes compete directly against the gas bikes and see who comes out on top.

[canuguzzi]

Zero might be the bike to buy for your average guy...

But the Lightning LS-218... Dear God I want one of those. 200HP, 168 ft lbs of torque...

Everyone who rides one nearly craps their pants when they go anywhere near the throttle, that would be worth every penny to blow away all the gas bikes and electric naysayers. It's interesting how much most people hate on electric bikes when most of them have never ridden one before. I'd like to see MotoGP let electric bikes compete directly against the gas bikes and see who comes out on top.

Their shop is in San Carlos. Sounds like a side trip as I figure out what to do while waiting for the Norge service to finish  direct bus service and train service there.

That bike seems amazing not just from straight line performance but range as well. I winder what a lesser performance motor would draw from the same batteries and what that might do to extending the range? Surely 150hp or even 125 HP would be more than enough.

I see really fast chargers around the corner and when that happens with bikes like the Zero where you can swap out batteries, the market for them will explode, much faster than the e-car industry.

You won't get vibration but if anyone needs that they could strap some lead weights to the wheels and get that too. 

The power and performance of superbikes has reach some plateau is sorts and even other motorcycle genres are reaching for more than pure engine performance, with current technologies how much room is left for that to go much higher? We see the emphasis on electronics, traction and suspension controls and so on. Now we have the e-bike that opens up a whole new type for manufacturers to explore.

There are a lot of benefits. Instead of off-road bikes making a racket as they run through forests and rec areas, thing could get a lot quieter and that is a good thing. One of the things people complain about with motorcycles is how loud many of them are. E-bikes offer a great solution.

While being able to pack two up and head out for cross country tours isn't yet practical on an e-bike, it probably isn't as far off as we might think. It might take more planning but within a few years it should be possible.

[Mark West]

Doesn't seem all that practical to me except as a commuter or short range bike. The 200 miles is only city driving with the most expensive model at $16,669.00. That model only gets a 98 mile range at 70 and 131 combined. Totally inadequate for any kind of touring or even a decent day ride.

Haven't ridden an electric bike but have driven a Tesla and know the joy of all that torque at any speed. could see owning one if I had a shorter commute.

[canuguzzi]

A lot of people only ride a 100 miles or so on a weekend, often less given the average milage on a lot of bikes.

Take a trip into the city, say 45 miles. Get there, plug into a fast charger and go have lunch with friends, afterwards pick up somethings you need and head back the long way along the coast, say 80 mikes. A nice easy day.

On the weekend if weekend riding is the thing, with the extra battery option, a run out to the coast, some river roads, atop for lunch, plug in there (just gotta ask) and head out again. Get back after maybe 120 miles.

Not everyone rides endless hours or tours. For long range touring, well, that is why you have more than one bike. I wouldn't take an economy car on a long trip either, use the right vehicle for the trip.

For more people than not, motorcycles in general are not practical. For bow, electric motorcycles can't meet the needs of a lot of those who want long distance tourers or who ride hundreds of miles per day every day. As a second bike, they can be practical if ever having more than one motorcycle could be considered being practical.

Given that some cars can get much better fuel economy than my Norge, carry far more, have heaters and other creature comforts, it is anblast to ride but practical? Not really.

In a few short years, electric motorcycles are going to become very good sellers.

[Testarossa]

Right now, I have the Guzzi for touring, the BMW for day trips into the mountains and pottering around town, and the scooter for grocery runs and popping over to the hardware store. A competent electric bike could easily replace the Beemer and the scoot. If I were still working, an electric bike would be my commuter. In fact when I worked five miles from home, when I didn't feel up to using the bicycle, I commuted on this:


That's a 48-volt golf cart motor with lead acid batteries, in a Yamaha frame. It weighs a manageable 210 lb. It's still sitting in the garage and some day I might put lithium batteries in it, when they are cheaper.

[rocker59]

Seth   

[drums4money]

In fact when I worked five miles from home, when I didn't feel up to using the bicycle, I commuted on this:


That's a 48-volt golf cart motor with lead acid batteries, in a Yamaha frame. It weighs a manageable 210 lb. It's still sitting in the garage and some day I might put lithium batteries in it, when they are cheaper.

That is so neat!

[canuguzzi]

Right now, I have the Guzzi for touring, the BMW for day trips into the mountains and pottering around town, and the scooter for grocery runs and popping over to the hardware store. A competent electric bike could easily replace the Beemer and the scoot. If I were still working, an electric bike would be my commuter. In fact when I worked five miles from home, when I didn't feel up to using the bicycle, I commuted on this:


That's a 48-volt golf cart motor with lead acid batteries, in a Yamaha frame. It weighs a manageable 210 lb. It's still sitting in the garage and some day I might put lithium batteries in it, when they are cheaper.

With lithium batteries how much weight do you think it would save, maybe 50 pounds? I bet it would be really quick.

[Groover]

That's a great project bike. Nice job. How far would that get you on a full charge?

[Testarossa]

Don't need to save overall weight. What I want is to increase range -- to maybe 30 miles on 60 lb of batteries, instead of 12 miles on 50 lb.

The really quick electric bikes run at much higher voltages -- 72 to 150 and higher. At 48 volts, 300 amps is only 19 hp, so the bike accelerates briskly but won't exactly spin a wheel. I never turned the throttle that far anyway -- I accelerated with traffic which probably means 100-amp starts. Ridden hard, the range on this thing might be only six or eight miles.