Author Topic: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?  (Read 8319 times)

Offline papatom

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 09:53:12 PM »
If the fork seal has puked enough to puddle on the garage floor even if wiping the seal cures the leak, shouldn't the fork oil level be topped off?  Dealer should do it.  If it were me, I'ld look at it as a chance to get to know my bike and do it myself.  Get the dealer to fork over seal and oil and spend an afternoon in the garage.

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 09:56:58 PM »
FWIW, that fork started to show dark tracks or rings from the first ride. I thought it might settle in over time, but it's only gotten worse. So whatever is causing it has nothing to do with rocks or road damage.

In defense of the dealer, their response was to my first call about the issue. The photos (I hope) make it clear that I'm not just whining about a faint trace of oil on the fork.

The bike is scheduled for its 600 mile service on May 24th, so they can see it then....or sooner if they want me to bring it in for inspection.

What will I do if MG doesn't want to cover it?

Options range from paying the dealer & trying to get a discount, doing it myself....to just selling my bikes and dropping a company that won't stand behind its products. I could have a lot of fun with a Morgan or Caterham.

I shudder to think of your reaction to an actual problem.

Offline MGPilot

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2016, 10:00:03 PM »
I shudder to think of your reaction to an actual problem.

You're welcome to shudder all you want.
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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 10:16:25 PM »
If the fork seal has puked enough to puddle on the garage floor even if wiping the seal cures the leak, shouldn't the fork oil level be topped off?  Dealer should do it.  If it were me, I'ld look at it as a chance to get to know my bike and do it myself.  Get the dealer to fork over seal and oil and spend an afternoon in the garage.
That's the one

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 10:16:25 PM »

pete roper

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2016, 11:01:01 PM »
One reason why There has been some wariness on the part of the factory to cover stuff last ke fork seals is because a lot of claims were coming in for blown seals, particularly on Stelvios if I recall correctly, that were in fact just the result of the assembly grease used on the seals creating 'Rings' on the fork leg. In fact there was a service bulletin about it a few years ago.

If it's leaving a pool under the bike? That's a different matter!

Yes fork seals are consumables and not officially covered by warranty but if it was on a bike I'd sold I'd just fix it. It's not the hardest job in t'world.

Pete

Offline will-t

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2016, 10:01:50 AM »
This is how Honda handles the problem.

 
So I'm at Dirty Harry's in Daytona on Saturday, March 5th. As I'm leaving, I bend down to tie my shoe. That's when I notice my right fork seal is leaking, badly. I cleaned it up, and figured I'd deal with it when I got back. I knew I had had the bike about a year, but wasn't really concerned. Turns out March 5 was my in service date, and that's when the warranty expired.

I took the bike back to my selling dealer on Tuesday, March 8, and explained my situation to them. They were quite helpful, and I heard from Honda corporate two days later. They said they were going to take care of it under warranty, and that they were going to do both forks-fresh fluid and seals in both.

After the repair, the bike rides substantially better. Much cushier, but still handles great. Kudos to Honda, and my dealer, South County Honda.
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Offline JeffOlson

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2016, 11:10:59 AM »
MGPilot, if your's is the new Norge I saw on the floor at Moto International when I took my new 2014 Norge there for its first service, it looked like one of the fork seals was leaking, and it had not even been sold or ridden yet!

If that one is your's, then I think it is a warranty issue.

PS: If you got your new Norge for $9,990, then you got a heck of a deal! I paid $1,000 more for mine, and it was one year older out of the gate. If I were in your shoes,  I would request warranty coverage, citing the leaking fork seal when on the showroom floor, but I would not force the issue...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 11:27:34 AM by JeffOlson »
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Online blackcat

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2016, 12:22:33 PM »
"Options range from paying the dealer & trying to get a discount, doing it myself....to just selling my bikes and dropping a company that won't stand behind its products."

Sell it, the bike is junk.
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canuguzzi

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2016, 12:55:33 PM »
It is a warranty item. This is not even close to the same type of issue as a flat tire.

A tire goes flat for a variety of reason but mostly a road hazard like a nail, hitting something etc.

If the bead on a tire started leaking within a short time, you bet it's covered under warranty. If a tire leaks air because of sideway cracks within the warranty period, that too is covered. A tire that leaks air without being subjected to a road hazard impact would likewise be covered under warranty. That is unless you don't ask.

A fork seal isn't subjected to nails, getting hit by rocks or other road hazards, any of that must get past the dust cover.

The length of time MG expects a fork seal should last is evidenced by the replacement schedule. Just because something is a consumable doesn't mean from day one it is on you to replace it if it fails.

Telling you to fix it is easy but not everyone has a garage. If the owner doesn't have space where they can work on it, they rely on the dealer. In any case...

Failure is not the same as consumption. Understanding that is key to this issue.

Make the warranty claim, MG will fix it.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 01:01:36 PM by Norge Pilot »

Offline MGPilot

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2016, 01:02:16 PM »
Update:  The dealer (Moto International) has seen the photos. Based on them, they anticipate that MG will cover the issue under warranty. Even though they are scheduling service near the end of June, they've offered to fit the repair in a month early.

Will have to see what MG says, but things are looking better.


Note: I understand that my comment about dumping the bikes seemed extreme. If I didn't like Moto Guzzi's, I certainly wouldn't have bought two of them. But I take factory support seriously. After a couple of clear instances of lack of factory support of design issues in my last Porsche, I sold it and after owning five 911's over the years, am unlikely to own another. In my opinion, if the factory won't stand behind what they make (within reasonable limits), I simply won't support them. But, that's my choice and it may eliminate reasonable alternatives. I don't care.
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oldbike54

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2016, 01:23:49 PM »
 Seems this has worked out , it is amazing how being reasonable usually ends in good results  :bow:

 Dusty

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2016, 07:01:54 PM »
Seems this has worked out , it is amazing how being reasonable usually ends in good results  :bow:

 Dusty
[/quote Now now Dusty, as Paul Mc Cartney said "Let it Be"

oldbike54

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2016, 07:09:51 PM »
Seems this has worked out , it is amazing how being reasonable usually ends in good results  :bow:

 Dusty
[/quote Now now Dusty, as Paul Mc Cartney said "Let it Be"

 So you are advocating hopping up and down while yelling nonsensical angry jibber jabber at the dealer ?  :shocked:

 Dusty

Offline MGPilot

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2016, 01:01:08 PM »
MGPilot, if your's is the new Norge I saw on the floor at Moto International when I took my new 2014 Norge there for its first service, it looked like one of the fork seals was leaking, and it had not even been sold or ridden yet!

If that one is your's, then I think it is a warranty issue.

PS: If you got your new Norge for $9,990, then you got a heck of a deal! I paid $1,000 more for mine, and it was one year older out of the gate. If I were in your shoes,  I would request warranty coverage, citing the leaking fork seal when on the showroom floor, but I would not force the issue...

Thanks Jeff. It was a white one (they had several in both colors) that had been on the floor for a bit. I really wanted to ride the V7 longer before buying a larger bike. But the $9,990 was just too good. I've enjoyed the bike. And Moto International has been an honest and informed dealer to work with.

As I noted, their caution about the fork seals possibly not being covered was based on our conversations before they saw the pictures. I also understand from Pete's and other posts that seals are traditionally consider consumable/wear items. I don't disagree. But this seemed unusual and unrelated to wear & tear.

Will see how it all plays out.
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Offline JeffOlson

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2016, 03:06:11 PM »
^ Yep. That is the one. However, what a beautiful bike! Congrats on such an outstanding bike at such a great price!
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Offline atavar

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2016, 03:29:46 PM »
Don't even worry about the seals.  Go for replacement of the scored fork tubes.  New seals will come with them.  I bet a dollar the seals are in upside down.
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canuguzzi

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2016, 05:21:40 PM »
^^^
Strange that after being fixed once before the sale they'd leak again so soon. Prob a good idea to have the tubes checked. Sure MI will do that though when they do the seals.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 05:38:31 PM by Norge Pilot »

oldbike54

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2016, 08:34:54 AM »
 What's the latest MGP ? Just curious .

 Dusty

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2016, 05:21:49 PM »
if this thing was leaking in the showroom, I'd have questions about the dealer.  They should've checked it and fixed it under warranty before it was ever sold. 

Why would they just wipe off the oil and sell it knowing the customer would not be happy?

That's self defeating and only compounds the problem.
John L 
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Offline MGPilot

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2016, 10:19:09 AM »
Update:

Took the Norge in for its 600 mile service. Even though the fork repair was scheduled for a week later, M.I. took the time to do it while it was there, saving me another trip.

Fork tube itself looked ok. Seems as if the spring rolled off the lower seal for some reason. The seal itself didn't seem to have a tear, etc.

The replacement didn't take too long.  Certainly helped that:
1. Jason (mechanic) knew what he was doing
2. Had a lift, tools and parts, that
3. He knew what he was doing.

All seems ok.

Interesting that he made the point that the valves should be adjusted as pairs (simultaneously) or the difference in pressure can throw off the adjustment if you try to do one at a time.

Learn something every day.
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oldbike54

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2016, 10:22:01 AM »
 Congratulations  :thumb: So all is is well ?

 Dusty

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2016, 05:58:47 PM »


Interesting that he made the point that the valves should be adjusted as pairs (simultaneously) or the difference in pressure can throw off the adjustment if you try to do one at a time.

Learn something every day.
Yeah that' sounds like good sense. When I do the clearances on my '07  ( 2 V ), I notice that the difference between a tight fit and sliding fit on the feeler can be just a gentle finger pressure on the rocker, they obviously flex to a degree.

Offline jbell

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2016, 06:53:25 PM »
Glad it worked out well and your approach, I'm sure, had a lot to do with it.  I'm with you, if the dealer/factory won't take care of a small problem on a brand new (fill in the blank), then I've lost confidence in them for anything else and time to move on to another brand.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2016, 07:56:59 PM »
Quote
Interesting that he made the point that the valves should be adjusted as pairs (simultaneously) or the difference in pressure can throw off the adjustment if you try to do one at a time.

Yeah, I brought that up in the Lario rehab thread. I hadn't seen it mentioned on here at that time. It's harder than it sounds, if you are anal about it and want both to be *perfect*.  :smiley:
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Offline MGPilot

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2016, 08:04:47 PM »
Yeah, I brought that up in the Lario rehab thread. I hadn't seen it mentioned on here at that time. It's harder than it sounds, if you are anal about it and want both to be *perfect*.  :smiley:

I'm sure that adjusting both valves in a pair simultaneously is old news to many.  It was just news to me.

Makes excellent sense. I think all my manually adjusted engines were 2-valve and the 4-valve engines have been hydraulic.
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pete roper

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2016, 01:11:22 AM »
Sorry, I've never seen the sense in it? One end of the rocker has a single point of contact on the cam or tappet or pushrod or whatever and then you have two adjusters at the other end.

Adjust one, remove feeler gauge, it now has clearance, adjust the other, the first one can have absolutely no influence on the clearance of the first.

As for difference due to 'Feel'? We all have our preferences but as long as the gauge can be pulled out with little resistance and then reinserted without fuss it's close enough. If you're going to get all super-anal about silly stuff like this you'd be obliged to always ensure the engine was exactly the same temperature to deal with the expansion differentials if the valves were set at 5*C ambient or 30*C ambient!

If it's really so worrisome just use one size bigger and one size smaller as a 'Go'-'No Go' gauge!

Pete

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2016, 06:05:40 AM »
Have you tried it, Pete?  :smiley: Whatever clearance the first is set to affects the second when you adjust it unless you use two feelers. <shrug> Well, that's been my Centauro and Lario experience anyway.. obviously you might have a *little* more experience than me.. :wink:
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Re: Fork Seals; New Bike; Am I being unreasonable?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2016, 06:32:46 AM »
Yes I have and my conclusion remains the same, it is a huge, overthinking, wank! :laugh:

Pete


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