Author Topic: T3 Clutch recommendations?  (Read 6597 times)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2016, 12:31:05 PM »
As Charlie sez: it's a "while you're there" job. If you don't do it, something will start leaking in about 500 miles after you put it back together.  :smiley: If you do it, nothing would have *ever* leaked.. and it was a complete waste of time and a (very) few bucks.
Pay attention to Charlie..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2016, 12:37:13 PM »
Quote
I guess my next question is what to watch out for doing this job. I've got to either pull the rear frame bolts and tilt the engine down, or remove both and drop everything out the bottom. Remove the mufflers. Undo the UJoint. Lift the back end of the bike. Unbolt the transmission.

It's probably a half hour's work, but being the first time with Guzzis and this one, it'll probably be more like two or three. Sound reasonable? Hope the front bolt isn't frozen.

Search for "Crabbing the frame" by Pete Roper, either here or on thisoldtractor.com. Two or Three sounds more like it the first time you do it.
Edit:
Here ya go..
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/access-gearbox-clutch-big-twin-en-2004-07-04.pdf
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 12:40:17 PM by Chuck in Indiana »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

02 Scura RC
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline wirespokes

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2016, 07:16:56 PM »
Thanks for the link, Chuck! That helps a lot.

I've got one of those motorcycle jacks with the two long padded rails. That ought to make the job easier. But I might use a jackstand or two as well.

Wish it wasn't such foul weather, I'd do the job in the driveway. No room in the garage.

                                                                                                                                                     

Offline Matteo

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2016, 08:30:29 PM »
You can use my garage.
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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2016, 08:30:29 PM »

Offline danedg

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2016, 09:21:23 PM »
I'd advise you open it up and check the various components before ordering new parts that you may not need. The friction disc in my clutch assembly had turned into a potato chip due to overheating.
The new disc was one of the worst manufactured pieces I'd ever seen and required a LOT of  TLC before it would operate correctly in the flywheel housing. I added the "cooling" vents to try and mitigate overheating, as per This Old Tractor.


The first 10,000 miles were dicey, and the bike still does NOT like hot, around town, riding. But it has gotten better and I finally am able to feather the clutch, most of the time...
'74 Eldo
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2016, 03:04:47 PM »
What exactly happened there, Dan? Was the center disc the problem? Was that all that required replacing?

In the photo I see an old disc and a new one.

Are you saying the new disc needed work to operate properly? How did you know that? Was it warped? If so, why not return it for a better one?

What's the back story? Had the clutch been recently rebuilt before this? Or did it go bad and that's what you found opening it up?

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2016, 04:58:56 PM »
What exactly happened there, Dan? Was the center disc the problem? Was that all that required replacing?

In the photo I see an old disc and a new one.

Are you saying the new disc needed work to operate properly? How did you know that? Was it warped? If so, why not return it for a better one?

What's the back story? Had the clutch been recently rebuilt before this? Or did it go bad and that's what you found opening it up?

The new intermediate disc Dan bought was one of a batch made incorrectly by/for Stein Dinse. The teeth on the outer perimeter weren't right and they didn't fit. I tried to send the one I bought back, but was told to just keep it and and a replacement was sent. The same one supplied now does fit correctly, but I prefer to buy the slightly more expensive "new and improved" one for a few dollars more.

I've never seen the need for the slots unless the bike is going to be dragging a sidecar or some similar heavy duty use.

With the careful choice of parts, correctly installed and adjusted properly, there's no reason a Guzzi clutch won't work the same cool or hot.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 04:59:48 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Offline danedg

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2016, 05:39:52 PM »


Long story short... I bought the above Eldorado sight unseen from an estate where it had been parked for 13 years by the deceased owner. Literally a barn find. I knew zero about Moto Guzzi's, but my previous experience with vintage bikes taught me the following mantra.
All it needs is everything.
With no history on the bike I didn't hesitate to just pull it all apart to check bearings, seals, gaskets, tolerance, tensioners, chrome cylinders, and everything else. 
Many thanks to This Old Tractor for guidance!
One of the recommended upgrades was to replace the 2mm tranny output hub with the 4mm. That required new clutch discs and don't forget to check that friction plate for warpage. It was really out of whack from over heating.
Whereas the old one looked like it had been machined carefully for it's intended purpose, the new one appeared to have been crudely stamped in a cut rate fashion.It did not fit into the flywheel and had to be hand dressed to fit tooth to tooth. All of them. Without the extra attention that plate would have bound up and been grabby when it finally engaged. The warped plate would have created a grabby situation. Not properly centering the clutch discs to accept the drive hub can damage the friction disc upon reassembly.
Not having done the work yourself on your T3, leaves you just scratching your head wondering why. I'd hesitate to start buying new (expensive) parts, before I'd determined that the ones you've got are OK and installed properly.   
'74 Eldo
'65 R60/2
'68 R60US
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Offline danedg

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2016, 05:50:52 PM »
The new intermediate disc Dan bought was one of a batch made incorrectly by/for Stein Dinse. The teeth on the outer perimeter weren't right and they didn't fit. I tried to send the one I bought back, but was told to just keep it and and a replacement was sent. The same one supplied now does fit correctly, but I prefer to buy the slightly more expensive "new and improved" one for a few dollars more.

I've never seen the need for the slots unless the bike is going to be dragging a sidecar or some similar heavy duty use.

With the careful choice of parts, correctly installed and adjusted properly, there's no reason a Guzzi clutch won't work the same cool or hot.

As usual Charlie nailed it. I didn't raise the poor quality question with the supplier until after it had been installed, and was told I should have said something sooner and it would have been replaced. I was an utter Guzzi noob and didn't know any better. The bike had 43K showing. The Loops are heavy and the original plate was badly warped so adding the optional "relief" holes made sense.

The point remains until YOU get in there and check things out there's no way to tell why it's not operating correctly.
Speculation is moot.
I rather doubt that it's anything serious.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2016, 06:06:20 PM by danedg »
'74 Eldo
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2016, 06:02:24 PM »
Nice bike danedg! Those are some HUGE cases! I've never seen such large luggage.

Thanks for filling in the data for me. Appreciate it. Was the intermediate disc one of those Charlie just mentioned from Stein Dinse?

I feel sufficiently bolstered, Charlie. I just need to find the good parts.  :wink:

Is this the one for 34.75 euro?

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Clutch/New-Version/Clutch-disc-MG-big-model-new-version-SD-TEC::1947.html

Or should I get these?

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Clutch/New-Version/Clutch-disc-MG-big-Model-new-version-AP::5218.html#prettyPhoto

Or would this be the way to go:

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Clutch/New-Version/Clutch-Kit-new-version-big-Model::790.html#prettyPhoto

I can't seem to find the intermediate disc separately on that site, to verify which is the best - but I guess the one that's slightly more expensive would be the one.

Since Matt has offered to let me do the job over there, I should probably have everything needed, just in case, to ensure it's all back together the same day.

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2016, 06:30:42 PM »
Nice bike danedg! Those are some HUGE cases! I've never seen such large luggage.

Thanks for filling in the data for me. Appreciate it. Was the intermediate disc one of those Charlie just mentioned from Stein Dinse?

I feel sufficiently bolstered, Charlie. I just need to find the good parts.  :wink:

Is this the one for 34.75 euro?

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Clutch/New-Version/Clutch-disc-MG-big-model-new-version-SD-TEC::1947.html

Or should I get these?

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Clutch/New-Version/Clutch-disc-MG-big-Model-new-version-AP::5218.html#prettyPhoto

Or would this be the way to go:

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Moto-Guzzi/Clutch/New-Version/Clutch-Kit-new-version-big-Model::790.html#prettyPhoto

I can't seem to find the intermediate disc separately on that site, to verify which is the best - but I guess the one that's slightly more expensive would be the one.

Since Matt has offered to let me do the job over there, I should probably have everything needed, just in case, to ensure it's all back together the same day.

Those are DB saddlebags.

The same parts you linked to are available here in the US from MG Cycle. I would recommend:
Intermediate plate:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4789
Friction plates:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1165
Hub:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=1163
Springs:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4857
Or you can buy the complete kit, but it seems to have the cheaper intermediate plate:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4766
Charlie

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2016, 09:13:37 PM »
Wirespokes, this is from the loopframe section of This Old Tractor, but it should give you a good idea of what to check  when you have access to the back of the engine.  See "Inside the bellhousing".

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine_out__check_these_things.html

Cheers,
Shaun
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'74 Eldorado Civilian
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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2016, 09:37:21 PM »
 
I'll try to get some pix up of the bike. It's my loudest one yet... I think it's got Bubs.

 :popcorn:
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2016, 11:55:19 AM »
Hey, this is pretty easy posting pix. So - ok - this was my first ride on the 87 LeMans after owning it 24 hours. My aunt's place is in the hills out of Santa Rosa CA and I rode it 'around the block' - probably six or seven miles. The farthest point from the house was probably 1.5 miles and my aunt said she could hear me the whole way. And I was taking it easy!




imgbb


I guess this means I now have to post some pix of the T3.

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2016, 01:29:12 PM »
Nice, what's that thing on the wind screen?
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Offline Matteo

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2016, 07:19:53 PM »





Terry's new ride. Sweet!
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2016, 10:28:38 PM »
Thanks for posting the photos, Matt!

That thing on the windscreen? It's part of my riding gear - originally created to block wind blast from the BMW RS windscreen that caused a terrible roaring. It saved my neck hitting an elk ten years ago, keeps me warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. So now I wear it all the time as a normal part of my riding gear.

Offline swooshdave

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2016, 02:47:32 PM »
Awesome bike!
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2016, 12:31:48 AM »
Yeah, it is a cool bike. Not my first choice aesthetically, but it's growing on me.

I'm starting to lean towards getting the clutch discs and maybe even the intermediate, from MG Cycle. Just git er done.


Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2016, 02:29:53 AM »

I've gotten an offer to buy two new SD discs, almost new unmarked flywheel, intermediate plate and good 4mm hub for $250. Not sure if I'll need a flywheel, but with the way this thing has been acting up,

My maths says that's a $50 bet on flywheel, if yours is good I'll give you the $50 for it, no risk on your part.
I've changed many flywheels, but never had slight wear on my own, clutches worn out by people not design.


Offline Matt Story

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2016, 06:07:23 AM »
I am wondering if anyone else has tried this intermediate plate out that is offered by Moe at Cycle Garden.

http://images.cyclegarden.com/ebay/interplate.jpg

They are offered on Ebay and I would assume by mail or at the shop.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Eldorado-ambassador-V700-T-T3-G5-LMI-Clutch-Intermediate-plate-/171642492309?hash=item27f6b09595:g:Gy8AAOSwxYxUtwG3&vxp=mtr

I bought one.  I can't yet give any report on its life or effect on other components.  I can say, it is a very nice fit in my near pristine flywheel.  The fact that its hardened makes great sense as far as wear on the friction surfaces.  My only doubt is that since it is hardened, will it have a damaging effect on the flywheel teeth.  Though due to its nice fit, it has very little play in the flywheel teeth.

Seems to be a very good product.

Any word on Moe's recovery?  Wishing him the best of course
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2016, 09:14:22 AM »
I am wondering if anyone else has tried this intermediate plate out that is offered by Moe at Cycle Garden.

http://images.cyclegarden.com/ebay/interplate.jpg

They are offered on Ebay and I would assume by mail or at the shop.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Eldorado-ambassador-V700-T-T3-G5-LMI-Clutch-Intermediate-plate-/171642492309?hash=item27f6b09595:g:Gy8AAOSwxYxUtwG3&vxp=mtr

I bought one.  I can't yet give any report on its life or effect on other components.  I can say, it is a very nice fit in my near pristine flywheel.  The fact that its hardened makes great sense as far as wear on the friction surfaces.  My only doubt is that since it is hardened, will it have a damaging effect on the flywheel teeth.  Though due to its nice fit, it has very little play in the flywheel teeth.

Seems to be a very good product.

Any word on Moe's recovery?  Wishing him the best of course

I used one in a customer's bike, like you said, it's a quality piece. Appears to be nearly identical to the "new and improved" intermediate plate that MG Cycle now sells.
Charlie

Offline swooshdave

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Re: T3 Clutch recommendations?
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2016, 10:25:26 PM »
Yeah, it is a cool bike. Not my first choice aesthetically, but it's growing on me.

I'm starting to lean towards getting the clutch discs and maybe even the intermediate, from MG Cycle. Just git er done.

I have a T I'll trade you.  :azn:
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Offline swooshdave

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