The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .

[TimmyTheHog]

Kinda makes one wonder how many different Sportsters will be on sale . The Sportster Low , the Sportster Tall , the Sportster Denim , The Sportster Dark , the Sportster Bulldog  It's funny, some of the guys on a Harley forum are already saying there are too many models .

 Dusty

PERSONALLY, I too feel there are too many models, but not enough diversity in terms of usage of the bike.

Doesn't matter how many models HD has, they are MAJORITY cruisers...touring or street

Now I am not saying to just dive right into the ADV, Sports, and even classic bike division, but come on, at least give us some thing that the rest of the non-cruiser dudes can chew on instead of ALMOST the same model with minor fairing/handle bar changes and call itself a whole other model...

This is where BMW excels and probably why the sales went up although they too cost like a freaking gold brick.

Anyway, that is my own personal opinion.

There counting new paint job's on existing models with a fender swap   

exactly what I feel when every time HD comes out with another "model"...

Edit: Stupid auto correct and stupid grammar...blah

[rocker59]

There counting new paint job's on existing models with a fender swap   

Unfortunately, Indian seems to have stolen a copy of the H-D playbook.

The third Scout model has been announced this week.  "Scout Bobber".



Yep, you guessed it.  Fender swap and new paint colors.

Geez, Louise...   

http://www.bikeexif.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-review

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-first-ride

I want to like the Indian Scout, but until they have a factory "Sport Scout", I'll be watching from afar...

Because I just don't "get it". 

[roadscum]

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And no they don't have multi-mapping, TC (yet), tire pressure sensors, electronic suspension or windshield adjustments. But then again, neither do the vast majority of other bikes on the market today.

H-D does have one feature I believe to be unique to the marque, the ability to shut down the rear cylinder to prevent catastrophic failure due to overheating, KEWL!!!   

H-D provides the technology their customers want, but those are the die hard/ride hard/live hard fan boy customers over 50 years old, they do nothing for the young rider and the experienced rider that embrace technology, hence dwindling sales. There is just not much of a market for sun dials today, time marches on, and H-D is being left behind.

I owned a 1st year EFI H-D and fueling was bad, real bad, shop couldn't fix it and H-D factory rep couldn't fix it. The lady in my life owned a H-D dealership. her customers with EFI units were not nappy and she was not happy, either was I.  A coupe of years later they switched to the Delphi system and all was well..... except for the cam bearings but that's another story. 

Paul
Paul

[redrider90]

s

Spoke with a corporate rep at Wilkins HD in Vermont and he stated that HD will release 100 new models in the next 5 years to accommodate changing demographics. I asked if the new motor will be in the Dyna line next year he stated it may be a few years but had no official answer.

See this website
https://www.statista.com/statistics/606311/motorcycle-sales-projection-globally-by-region/
with a very interesting graph "Projected motorcycle sales worldwide in 2018, by major region (in 1,000 units)"
Global motorcycle sales - forecast by region 2018
Asia Pacific.                        108,800
Africa and Middle.                 10,100
Central and South America    8,125
Western Europe                    3,030
North American                     1930
Eastern Europe                        414

[Kev m]

There is no way on Earth they could release a 100 new models over 5 years!  20 a year, come on!!

Harley's definition of "models" has always been paint and badges. So I'm sure they'll hit 100, the question is will they be different enough to expand demographics.

My guess is most won't.

[Kev m]

H-D does have one feature I believe to be unique to the marque, the ability to shut down the rear cylinder to prevent catastrophic failure due to overheating, KEWL!!!   

H-D provides the technology their customers want, but those are the die hard/ride hard/live hard fan boy customers over 50 years old, they do nothing for the young rider and the experienced rider that embrace technology, hence dwindling sales. There is just not much of a market for sun dials today, time marches on, and H-D is being left behind.

I owned a 1st year EFI H-D and fueling was bad, real bad, shop couldn't fix it and H-D factory rep couldn't fix it. The lady in my life owned a H-D dealership. her customers with EFI units were not nappy and she was not happy, either was I.  A coupe of years later they switched to the Delphi system and all was well..... except for the cam bearings but that's another story. 

Paul
Paul

The rear cylinder can shut down for comfort. That's actually clever and has nothing to do with failure that any air-cooled motor wouldn't benefit from because it only happens at idle.

I had a first year EFI RK (Weber-Marelli) and put 65k miles on it in a little over 2 years, fueling was flawless but then I ran stock pipes.

Yeah they had a few bad cam bearings the FIRST year of the TC, but they fixed it and fast. Can't really say that about Guzzi's valve train f-ups in the last decade or so.

Edit - oh and technology and demographics, you'd be surprised how many younger riders want simple not more complicated. Sportsters are pretty popular with the younger demographics.

[Frulk]

When they DO make it we don't buy it...

[Kev m]

When they DO make it we don't buy it...

Yup and I expect the Roadster will soon follow suit.

[cruzziguzzi]

I didn't see it above - are the new little HD water-pumpers doing any good in sales?




Todd.

[Kev m]

Unfortunately they don't report sales of them separately from the Sportsters so no one outside of HD knows for sure.

My instinct is they are a small minority for now.

[cruzziguzzi]

Indian seems to have stolen a copy of the H-D playbook.




I want to like the Indian Scout, but until they have a factory "Sport Scout", I'll be watching from afar...

And a touch of Confederate as well, it would seem.

"Sport Scout"? Yes Please!

Todd.

[roadscum]

When they DO make it we don't buy it...

Yes indeed. I shopped that before buying the Guzzi 1200 Sport, it just didn't ring my bell. Seemed like a clunky lead sled in when compared to the Guzzi. I bought the Guzzi as a 1 year olds left over from a dealer that had acquired many eft overs as part of a deal with Guzzi USA. Paid only $8K for it.

Paul

[Arizona Wayne]

I remember when Victory came out with a somewhat sporty looking mode that was either orange or red color.  Only thing is it had 0 ground clearance and was a loser.  I rode a 92C once an ex Guzzi rider bought instead and was impressed with it's handling, braking. 

[canuck750]

This is the German Electra Glide I picked up this week, 3500 KM, the original owner was 5'-5" tall, he couldn't get his feet on the ground and dropped it in his parking lot, one scuff on a bag. It scared him so he reluctantly let it go he has two Harley cruisers, short seat and he can ride them with confidence.



I took it out for my 1st ride today, about 200 miles, all backroad 2 lane county riding, mostly empty roads, cruised effortlessly a 140 km/hr, 3650 rpm, 52 mpg. It runs out of steam around 220 km/hr, may have had more but my courage stopped around there. It feels lighter and much more stable than the R1150RT I just sold. Dropping down from 6th to 5th and cracking the throttle and at 140 km/hr it just snaps forward and hits 200 in a few seconds.

[Kev m]

This is the German Electra Glide I picked up this week, 3500 KM, the original owner was 5'-5" tall, he couldn't get his feet on the ground and dropped it in his parking lot, one scuff on a bag. It scared him so he reluctantly let it go he has two Harley cruisers, short seat and he can ride them with confidence.



I took it out for my 1st ride today, about 200 miles, all backroad 2 lane county riding, mostly empty roads, cruised effortlessly a 140 km/hr, 3650 rpm, 52 mpg. It runs out of steam around 220 km/hr, may have had more but my courage stopped around there. It feels lighter and much more stable than the R1150RT I just sold. Dropping down from 6th to 5th and cracking the throttle and at 140 km/hr it just snaps forward and hits 200 in a few seconds.

Nice bike, best of luck with it. Last thing I rode even remotely close to that was probably a press RT, and that was already too much plastic for me. But it was fast, comfortable, capable etc.

In maybe complete contrast here's the exact other end of the segment of bikes marketed as "Tourers"



1.7L (103 Cu In), 800# wet, air-cooled, 2V/cylinder pushrod/hyd lifter motor, 6 gallon tank, detachable windshield, Brembo ABS, RBW, cruise but otherwise a simple/basic machine.

It will cruise all day at 75-95 mph and return only about 40 mpg (though slow things down to secondary roads and you'll see at least mid 40's).

Range to empty display in the ODO will start in the 221-250 mile range depending on previous fill-up and efficiency, but you'll easily get 200+ miles from the tank (usually before the low fuel light comes on) in comfort to ride it through if you like.

Maintenance is basically an oil and filter change, maybe check belt tension. Transmission fluid and primary chain fluids are much longer intervals (and primary chain has an auto tensioner so no checks/adjustments there).

The biggest thing for me is that this bike is just as comfortable on secondary roads from 40-60 mph as it on the highway. And though it's more tempting than any Harley I've ridden before to keep passing on the highway it's just as easy to move to the right and let others be in a rush.



Now sure, not everyone wants to travel that way, but I learned riding Harleys in the 90's that it can be a very nice way to approach a bike trip. Back then my BMW Oilhead always made me feel like I had to pass the next guy in search of open roads that never came (cause there was always someone else to pass). For me riding like that leads to faster and faster speeds with less and less relaxation. So moving over and letting other people be in a rush can be really nice sometimes.

Handling on the RK is surprisingly nimble and with a Sportster or V7 in the garage to compliment it I want for nothing.

I completely understand why some prefer the style or performance of Sport or Sport Touring bikes, but having owned a number and ridden even more I realize that I prefer a standard/classic/tourer.

I don't use the word cruiser because to me that means (and I realize it's a very large percentage of Harley products) a bike that compromises function for form even more than this (greatly limiting lean angle, seat height/size, control placement etc.). That's a bridge too far for me and it doesn't offer me what I want, but I don't begrudge those who do.

This bike has all the brakes, all the suspension, all the power, and yes even all the lean angle (little more than 32° each direction) I need, with excellent ergonomics, lights, features. It's very functional yet still relatively "basic."

Similarly my Jeep Wrangler JKU has heated leather, premium sound/NAV, automatic headlights, but it's also got a 6-spd, LSD, etc. It'll never be a BMW or Range Rover, or hell it'll never even be my wife's Grand Cherokee with memory seats tied to keyless ignition, auto-leveling/self-dimming HID's, self leveling suspension, automatic rain-sensing wipers etc.

But that's exactly why I bought the Wrangler. 

And that's exactly why I bought the RK.

It's a balance of form, function, and feel.

[jas67]

I've ridden the current BMW R1200RT.    I found it to be a very competent performer, though, fairly top heavy at stops.    I could've ridden the K1600GTL at that demo day too, but, just sitting on it and stand it off the side stand, it felt like it weighed more like 900# than 700#.     I wasn't interested.   I'm sure it's performance would be too tempting.   Having ridden the S1000R and S1000XR, I can definitely say that those two bikes would result in loss of license or worse, life.    I'd think that, at least for me,  the K1600GTL is just a bigger, heavier version of that.   I'm also a twin guy, so, if I were to buy a BMW tourer, I prefer the character of the boxer twin.   I very much enjoyed the R1200RS that I demoed.

By contrast, I recently had the opportunity to put some miles on Kev's police Road King.   Now, I've always been in the "I'll never want a Harley camp."     But, I have to admit, I was quite pleased with the RK.    It was WAY easier to stand up off the side stand than the K1600GTL, and also easier than the R1200RT.    The Police RK has running boards at a position I found comfortable, and the police solo seat is somewhat higher than a standard RK, making the ergos quite "standard", and not like the typical feat forward egos you usually see going down the road.

The stock exhaust sounds great.   It has a nice growl under acceleration, and a muted, pleasant rumble going under way.    All the sounds this bike makes are very pleasant, not intrusive like the plethora of "Screaming Eagle" or Vance & Hinds equipped Harleys on the road.

Power, handling, and braking are all better than I expected of a 800 + lbs beast.    While this wouldn't be my first choice for "The Dragon", or any other very twisty road, it was a fantastic mount for a day of riding through the Pine Barrens of NJ.

Because it was a hot and humid day, we had the quick-detach windshield off for the day.    Airflow was quite clean.    At 70+ MPH, you can feel the wind blast, so, I'd want at least a small windshield for highway riding, but, without the windshield speeds up to 60-65 were fine.

The thing that struck me the most about this bike, was, that, as Kev also mentions above, in huge contrast to bikes like the Breva 1100 I used to own, Ducati Monster 796 and BMW F800GT that I currently have, I'm perfectly content to lope along at 50-55 MPH with traffic.    It has plenty of power to pass, but, you don't need to.

I came away from the experience with a very different attitude toward The Motor Company's products.    While I'd never own one of big twins with the huge fairing, fixed or handle-bar mounted, I could definitely see having a Road King in the fleet.

[oldbike54]

 Hmm , my perception of the RT and modern FL series bikes is different . I found the RT to be like a ballerina , even at low speeds compared to the HD which felt heavy and sluggish , giving a feeling of being disconnected from the bike . Maybe we have different gravity in Oklahoma , dunno .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Hmm , my perception of the RT and modern FL series bikes is different . I found the RT to be like a ballerina , even at low speeds compared to the HD which felt heavy and sluggish , giving a feeling of being disconnected from the bike . Maybe we have different gravity in Oklahoma , dunno .

 Dusty

Sarcasm aside the problem with subjective comparisons are that the are subjective.

Differences in physical size and strength, riding technique, expectations, and perspectives means we likely all "feel" differently about these things.

That said considering the reverse triple-trees on the FL I'm always surprised when someone doesn't "feel" the surprising nimbleness of the chassis underway, even at low speeds.

And comparing the overall center of gravity on Harleys in general vs the usually lighter but taller bikes I've owned and ridden from Oilheads and Guzzis to Triumphs and JAPanInc's products I've often found the lighter weight of the latter products was hidden by the taller center of gravity. Sometimes so much so they felt heavier than the actually heavier Harley in many circumstances.

YMMV, then that's the whole point of this post and this thread.

[cruzziguzzi]

Looking at Kev'um's white bike and the thread title got me to thinking....

I wonder if the failing numbers will lead to me scoring a brand-new, white, Cop Dyna at a "deal"?

I've always thought that one of those could be my last-new-street bike.



Todd.

[JJ]

Unfortunately, Indian seems to have stolen a copy of the H-D playbook.

The third Scout model has been announced this week.  "Scout Bobber".



Yep, you guessed it.  Fender swap and new paint colors.

Geez, Louise...   

http://www.bikeexif.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-review

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-first-ride

I want to like the Indian Scout, but until they have a factory "Sport Scout", I'll be watching from afar...

Because I just don't "get it".

If I ever win the LOTTERY, this is one of the vintage bikes I would seriously consider: 

1937 Indian Sport Scout  :1:












bbcode link image

[JJ]

A "restored" 1937 Indian Sport Scout today will set you back approx. $28,000-$35,000...or you can opt for this:




upload album online

[redrider90]

I thought the whole point of this thread is in the OP's 1st post when he linked From Reuters "Harley-Davidson cuts shipments forecast; shares skid."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results-idUSKBN1A3126
Even the name of the thread of is "The MoCo is falling" is about the business model and not the egos and "subjective views" of the RK or other behemoths they make.

Does "shares skid" mean HOG is in a low side slide? March 13 HOG= $62.25/share: July 21st $48.26. Down $14.share in 4 months  And that drops includes an 8% growth in overseas market. OUCH.
Me thinks "The Street" thinks HOG is not performing so well.   Meanwhile HOG  Meanwhile Honda sold 17 million units worldwide 2016 to HOG's 260,269 units. I'd never own a Honda (my Grandmother said that about Ford but then in 1953 she won a Ford Crown Vic and kept it  ).
But Honda  does something the MoCo has no grasp of and that is cover ALL demographics that appear to all segments of the planet.
HOG truly is going to need to roll off 100 new models and fast to compete with Honda.

[jas67]

A "restored" 1937 Indian Sport Scout today will set you back approx. $28,000-$35,000...or you can opt for this:




upload album online

I love the paint job on that!

But, to get the ergos I'd want, I'd want the pegs further back, and a springer seat similar to this, but, mounted several inches higher:


Solo seats on a /2 BMW illustrate what I'd be going after:

[oldbike54]

 Actually I changed the thread title after merging 3 separate threads together that were about the same subject . The new title was really meant to be a bit humorous , and not any prediction of what was gonna happen to the MoCo . They build nothing that blows my dress up , but they will probably survive , at least for another couple of years 

 Dusty

[jas67]

Hmm , my perception of the RT and modern FL series bikes is different . I found the RT to be like a ballerina , even at low speeds compared to the HD which felt heavy and sluggish , giving a feeling of being disconnected from the bike . Maybe we have different gravity in Oklahoma , dunno .

 Dusty

No doubt, the RT is like a ballerina at speed, and indeed a friend of mine, who recently trade is 2013 RT on a 2017 GS, illustrated this quite well, as he is amazingly fast in the twisties.   BUT, in the parking lot, the much heavier Road King feels as light TO ME.

That said, I'd definitely choose the R1200RS over the R1200RT.   

Different bikes for different riding.  That's why so many of us have multiple bikes.
My '74 Eldorado will serve the same purpose for me as the Road King, but, if I lived somewhere like Kev does, where the roads are mostly straight and flat, I could definitely see having a Road King in the garage.

And, while many people say, they don't want a Harley, because they want to be different, well, you can be different -- keep the stock pipes on it.   

[Kev m]

I thought the whole point of this thread is in the OP's 1st post when he linked From Reuters "Harley-Davidson cuts shipments forecast; shares skid."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results-idUSKBN1A3126
Even the name of the thread of is "The MoCo is falling" is about the business model and not the egos and "subjective views" of the RK or other behemoths they make.

Well then let me connect the dots.

The thread is about Harley's performance in the market and largely the discussion has been about demographics and the desires of riders.

This of where the subjective feel and relative performance of a KLT/KGT vs an FLH come into the discussion.

It's simply that different people WANT different things.

Honda's units are huge worldwide, but they're about as relevent to Harley as most of Polaris' numbers (which are ATV's/side-by-sides/snowmobiles).

Should Harley expand their demographics. The answer is it depends on the goal.

As a publicly traded company they need to grow so that's probably the best answer.

But that doesn't mean they need to abandon everything they are and are doing now.

Differences exist between an FLH and BMW for a reason. Not everyone wants a BMW. Hell, most people don't.

So the differences, real or subjective are part of the discussion.

At least that's how I see the evolution of the discussion and the answer to the original question.

[SmokinJoe]

  Sometimes we do buy what they make when it hits our niche. I bought the ev 1100




temporary hosting photo
cal tour because it was what I wanted for two up trips and the KLR 650 and sportster roadster because they suited my needs. Now it's hard to afford three bikes with the med bills. But I rarely travel by 4 wheels and many years since by air so motorcycle is my choice as long as possible.
   I think the real problem for motorcycle companies in general is most people just don't want to be the least bit uncomfortable even if it results in them being less and less connected to the real world they live in. They don't even want to drive the car they're sitting in, it should just take them where they want to go and not interrupt their electronic communications. So as market shares shrink the fight for what is selling vs what direction product mfg should take is critical. The Indian Scout just won't work for me for any travel, most of the sportster competition won't either. I cover 600-700 miles per day on the sportster or KLR  and that's about all my body can handle on anything, even in a car.
The Guzzi is something I can live with too but on long trips around the country with uncertain service it's harder to keep going if something happens. So it's all a trade off. That still leaves HD in a good spot if they make the right choices for their market over the next 5 years.
Joe

[redrider90]

 That still leaves HD in a good spot if they make the right choices for their market over the next 5 years.
Joe
[/quote]

I have always viewed these discussions about Harley as a business model. HOG should have had made "the right choices" years ago. They have lived off their demographics too long and meanwhile much of the MC industry has tooled up and are already making bikes where the market is going to grow the most and that is in Asia Pacific region and the African continent. Harley's  growth overseas is in the cruiser line but much of the future  is going to be smaller bikes and scooters in high density population areas of Asia and the vast poor expanses of the African continent. Where does Harley have bikes for 3rd world countries with large populations that cannot afford much less desire a cruiser or even a sportster? In the last 18 months much of the financial pages about HOG have been writing what I believe is the epitaph of the demise of the company. "Too little to late". HD is not in a good spot with the US market share shrinking fast, their clothing line also shrinking and no new bikes for the masses. How much growth can they squeeze from overseas will be interesting. 
Kev M says "Should Harley expand their demographics. The answer is it depends on the goal."
Their goal as a publicly traded company is to grow and increase returns for the stockholders. From my perspective they are underperforming and their stock price reflects it.
Connect the dots? I say the bottom line is all that matters for survival.

[redrider90]

Quote from: Kev m on Today at 11:36:14 AM

Honda's units are huge worldwide, but they're about as relevent to Harley as most of Polaris' numbers (which are ATV's/side-by-sides/snowmobiles).

Honda total 17 million motorcycle units per year are very relevant to Harley's 250,000 worldwide units per year. Honda sucks the air out of the Motorcycle industry. And if HOG plans on making 50 new models they are going to have to go up against Honda and for that matter a whole lot of 300-500cc motorcycle brands. That is where the meat of growth is going to happen. 
 Polaris isn't even in the picture. M/Cs only represent 13% of Polaris total income. Polaris is not even a motorcycle company by any standard.
 
From this article of 300-500 cc motorcycles Harley does not even have one MC to compete in this line. And Honda isn't even mentioned in the top 7 for 2016.
Top 7 Upcoming 300-500cc Bikes of 2016
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598
Where is HD?
https://www.bikewale.com/news/26413-top-6-motorcycle-updates-for-2017.htmlTop
Top 6 motorcycle updates for 2017

[ScepticalScotty]

I think the last post illustrates a critical point - I think HD do "thier thing" very well and if you like that kind of thing, thats what you like. But if they were to truly expand outside their base, they would be playing with the big boys of sports/adventure/commuter motorcycles and it would be tough for them. The last time a HD was a cutting edge high performance motorcycle was prior to the Featherbed Manx Nortons (which were banned by the AMA....).