Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bad Chad on May 11, 2021, 11:28:14 AM
-
HD is dropping the Livewire, (no wonder they didn't have one for demo last friday in their demo truck, they said this ride was only for IC bikes :rolleyes:, it was the entire reason I went), they are going to sell them under the Livewire brand, apparently in their own stand alone stores. Sounds like they are on the way to Buell 2.0
https://www.motorcycledaily.com/2021/05/harley-davidson-creates-separate-brand-for-electric-motorcycles-livewire/
-
I don't see the connection to Buell. They simply killed off Buell in 2010. They never set up different dealerships for them.
-
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .
Dusty
-
Separate brand or not...I don't see them selling a lot of LiveWire electric motorcycles, in general... :rolleyes: :shocked:
-
Separate brand or not...I don't see them selling a lot of LiveWire electric motorcycles, in general... :rolleyes: :shocked:
The resistance is very great .
Dusty
-
Who wouldn't want a $30,000 electric scooter?
-
Couldn't spark any interest? How are they gonna generate revenue? :grin:
-
Aermacchi, Buell, Alta, and probably more ??
HD is "crushing it"
-
Don’t forget MV.
-
Bla, bla, bla................ .
-
I don't see the connection to Buell. They simply killed off Buell in 2010. They never set up different dealerships for them.
They treated Buell like a red headed step child, until they were finally able to kill it off, I see something similar in the future for Livewire.
-
They treated Buell like a red headed step child, until they were finally able to kill it off, I see something similar in the future for Livewire.
Looks like they are taking steps to prevent that.
-
Who’d a thought a $30,000 electric novelty would not be the great savior. I hope almost every battery powered vehicles get push aside.
As for Buell vs Livewire I too fail to see the comparison. Seems like two totally different things.
-
I really don't understand the desire to short circuit the future , IC engines have only been around in common use for a bit over 100 years , it isn't like anyone is trying to replace something the folks in 1880 considered useful , or the folks in 2080 will think necessary .
Dusty
-
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .
Dusty
Everyone is getting amped up over this, the IC engine is sick and it’s terminal. In the future, the bright sparks will go electric or take the bus.
No need to be negative about the concept when the future is so positive, resistance is futile, there is massive potential in the concept.
If you conduct a survey, you might get a shock at how ready the public is for these. Initial reluctance is just one single phase in the love hate relationship that these things are at the centre of.
Once you throw the switch and take one ohm, you and the bike will become fused and you’ll wonder why you didn’t charge in and get one sooner...
I saw an electric trials bike that effortlessly volted over a huge bridge in Wheatstone near where I live.
A petrol bike would have fallen flat, charge on in an make enquiries.. hurry last days, stocks are limited...!
The potential difference is astonishing...
-
I think it's a smart move and Livewire will do well once they knock about $10K off the current prices.
-AJ
-
Separate brand or not...I don't see them selling a lot of LiveWire electric motorcycles, in general... :rolleyes: :shocked:
Hmmm...?
They said that about the V85.... :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
-
I really don't understand the desire to short circuit the future , IC engines have only been around in common use for a bit over 100 years , it isn't like anyone is trying to replace something the folks in 1880 considered useful , or the folks in 2080 will think necessary .
Dusty
Ah yes the electric motor and battery are amazing new tech.
-
Keep plugging away, Dusty... I just don't like the insinuation that my 1881 Putnam metal lathe is not a high tech piece of machinery.
One very serious question that I've yet to see addressed in any IC/EV threads..
Everybody is emptying gas pumps today around here in SC with the current cyberterrorist hack of the Colonial pipeline. But there is apparently less trouble getting diesel fuel at many stations, which is specifically why we have both a gas truck and a plain, old fashioned, zero electronics diesel truck that typically spends more time parked than driven. If EV becomes the standard and gas/diesel IC is actively phased out, what might the alternate,, fuel vehicle be if electric grid is compromised by regular blackout, storms, terrorists, ?? Hydrogen cell, ? Or will it be EV or sneakers pounding sand?
And I'm still waiting to see how people are going to recharge/exchange EV vehicles in a manner & schedule comparable to gas. People are not happy having to wait 20-30 min or more in line to get gas today when they can get it. They're grumbling on tv now, plenty of anxiety & some short tempers. Zero patience. Making a slow turnaround the norm doesn't make sense.
I'm having a hard time envisioning a standardized battery swapping scenario - warehousing needs of both fresh and dead batteries, exchange equipment whether fully automated with crazy maintenance & upkeep or consumer operated by many who cannot even check their own oil. An automated car wash-type system might work but will still be a huge bottleneck compared to large gas stations capable of 20 vehicle or more being refueled simultaneously.
-
Ah yes the electric motor and battery are amazing new tech.
Actually the latest stuff is , the battery powered lawn equipment I have transitioned to is so superior to the IC tools they have replaced there is literally no comparison . IC engines are going the way of the dinosaur , not overnight , but more rapidly than you might think . Things change , you can't stop that from happening .
Dusty
-
I'm perplexed at how many comments negative I read ( :boozing:) about H-D trying the electric market I read all over the place. Seems like a ton of folks have a real wish to see them fall flat on their face-short out, if you will.
Sure, the first one was $$$$$. I've also read several knowledgeable reports saying it was the much better execution over the Zero-granted, not concerning price. But the UK reviewers, who actually ride the things for months and miles stated that even with the premium they'd buy the LiveWire.
Now, like a lot of riders, I don't need someone telling me what to like
or buy, but these are accomplished testers and their reports do carry some real credibility.
Why NOT create a separate division? Look at the crap spewed about the Pan American and the expert opinions that no one will go to a H-D dealer to buy one for whatever reason? The Buell references? What should they do? What they have always done? Is that crap? Something different? Is that crap?
I have no idea, and don't want to sound like I'm calling out-I'm not-but I'm curious to see how it all turns out. And cudos to the new guy for having the moxie to try.
-
Keep plugging away, Dusty... I just don't like the insinuation that my 1881 Putnam metal lathe is not a high tech piece of machinery.
One very serious question that I've yet to see addressed in any IC/EV threads..
Everybody is emptying gas pumps today around here in SC with the current cyberterrorist hack of the Colonial pipeline. But there is apparently less trouble getting diesel fuel at many stations, which is specifically why we have both a gas truck and a plain, old fashioned, zero electronics diesel truck that typically spends more time parked than driven. If EV becomes the standard and gas/diesel IC is actively phased out, what might the alternate,, fuel vehicle be if electric grid is compromised by regular blackout, storms, terrorists, ?? Hydrogen cell, ? Or will it be EV or sneakers pounding sand?
And I'm still waiting to see how people are going to recharge/exchange EV vehicles in a manner & schedule comparable to gas. People are not happy having to wait 20-30 min or more in line to get gas today when they can get it. They're grumbling on tv now, plenty of anxiety & some short tempers. Zero patience. Making a slow turnaround the norm doesn't make sense.
I'm having a hard time envisioning a standardized battery swapping scenario - warehousing needs of both fresh and dead batteries, exchange equipment whether fully automated with crazy maintenance & upkeep or consumer operated by many who cannot even check their own oil. An automated car wash-type system might work but will still be a huge bottleneck compared to large gas stations capable of 20 vehicle or more being refueled simultaneously.
In 1880 there was no infrastructure to support IC powered vehicles , we built that system in stages . No idea why this is so hard to understand , it's like some people think the IC engine has always been around , how can we possibly live sans IC engines ? Reality is , they represent a blip in time , most of our great great grandparents never drove a car powered by an IC engine , hell , most probably thought cars would never become common . Technology moves us to new things , sometimes good , sometimes not , but as a whole we almost never go backwards . Even those of us who are still riding 1972 loop frame models would look just like someone riding a 2021 V9 to someone from 1880 .
Dusty
-
In 1880 there was no infrastructure to support IC powered vehicles , we built that system in stages . No idea why this is so hard to understand , it's like some people think the IC engine has always been around , how can we possibly live sans IC engines ? Reality is , they represent a blip in time , most of our great great grandparents never drove a car powered by an IC engine , hell , most probably thought cars would never become common . Technology moves us to new things , sometimes good , sometimes not , but as a whole we almost never go backwards . Even those of us who are still riding 1972 loop frame models would look just like someone riding a 2021 V9 to someone from 1880 .
Dusty
im not saying it can't, won't or shouldn't happen. I just want to see how it's done. Comparing technological advances- both scope and pace- of circa 1880 (no rules, largely ignorant/naive public & sloooow rollout) to circa 2020 (highly regulated, total market availability/saturation expected immediately) is more apples & oranges than like vs like.
Some basic platforms, classes and specifications/dimensions of machines have been demonstrated to be difficult to improve. Just because these can be embellished doesn't improve the platform. The EV Achilles heel imho is the ever changing & tweaking that will likely accompany the movement, making too many machines quickly obsolete as a business model. People miss the point that (for example) 85% durability/efficiency/dependability means a machine that can last for a long time while effectively managing the 15% deficit vs discarding the entire machine for a 1% improvement and an entirely new 14% deficit. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.
An EV motorcycle with a simple battery swap capacity- like swapping the gas tank or a saddlebag or two- makes lots of sense to me. It seems like a far more viable application than a car if you remove inclement weather from the equation (which you can't in most situations) If it is as infinitely usable and repairable as an old Vtwin HD, it makes even more sense. But it probably won't be because people will expect new extra doodads to prove their new machine is "better" than last year's model. Current microchip shortages aside, it will be no surprise to see EVs endlessly tweaked & quickly made as obsolete as the bazillion of 12v and 14v cordless tools out there.
I still have doubts that solar and wind are going to be enough to satisfy the ignorant masses. And they won't consume less to make it work. That means coal and nuclear to fill the gap for the foreseeable future. After the power grid is enhanced..
One of the old Master Sculptors in VT would see some ambitious "artist" drawing all over a piece of granite, talking about what they were going to do and how they were going to do it. He would just say "That pencil doesn't cut very well, does it?" Talk about "what if" doesn't do much for me. I want to see it happen. Not saying it can't or won't be done. Just do it. Until then, it's just talk.
-
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .
Thanks for that chuckle, sir!
-
I still have doubts that solar and wind are going to be enough to satisfy the ignorant masses. And they won't consume less to make it work. That means coal and nuclear to fill the gap for the foreseeable future. After the power grid is enhanced..
Natural gas is likely to fill the gap because it will be the best compromise between dogma and reality. Solar and wind would have to increase many times over.
-
Renewable energys sources, ie wind, solar, Geo thermal, bio-mass, make up 1/5th of total energy production, exceding coal, and equalling nuclear. The rate of renewable growth is increasing every year.
-
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .
Dusty
Boom,Boom. You're hear all week, right? :)
Ciao
-
As an owner of three Alta electric motorcycles, I cannot wish HD any good fortune for their dealings with Alta. I love the performance of the Alta by the way, and have not even started my KTM FreeRide IC bike since I bought the first electric.
-
I don't see the connection to Buell. They simply killed off Buell in 2010. They never set up different dealerships for them.
I think the op is referring to the management style, HD has shown over and over again (MV Augusta) their management culture is incapable to cope with change.
-
You guys resisting EV has become comical, shaking your little T-Rex fists at the oncoming EV glacier.
-AJ
-
In 1880 there was no infrastructure to support IC powered vehicles , we built that system in stages . No idea why this is so hard to understand , it's like some people think the IC engine has always been around , how can we possibly live sans IC engines ? Reality is , they represent a blip in time , most of our great great grandparents never drove a car powered by an IC engine , hell , most probably thought cars would never become common . Technology moves us to new things , sometimes good , sometimes not , but as a whole we almost never go backwards . Even those of us who are still riding 1972 loop frame models would look just like someone riding a 2021 V9 to someone from 1880 .
Dusty
Understand the thrust of your argument here but a few extra dimensions. The biggest limiting factor with electric vehicles is the battery technology, a battery simply cannot compete with the energy density of gasoline, it's around 1/100th that of gasoline. The battery has been around now for 221 years (invented practically in 1800) so it's had well over 200 years of development to date and is still a million miles short of the energy density of gasoline. Of course the development isn't linier for all sorts of reasons so we won't go down that path but the example of the ICE in 1880 has a few problems as well due to the fact that the ICE was competing against a horse basically as a mode of transport for the individual and therefor the future potential was blindingly obvious which drove the development at a high rate. Not quite the same dynamic for the development trajectory of the battery.
Truth is I'm all for electric modes of transport I just don't see them as something that will replace the ICE anytime in the foreseeable future. I believe we will end up with a mix of battery powered vehicles that provide utility in their space and the ICE the same. A mixed outcome.
Ciao
-
Too many people never look at the bigger picture..
The biggest problem with consumers in general is consumption. It is unavoidable if people are left to their own means. When an individual (or society) thinks they're doing good, they have been socially conditioned to reward themselves. So they take/have/enjoy a little more. If there were no politics or such involved (which isn't the case) EV would be somewhat irrelevant if people lived within a tighter set of parameters including driving less. Once EVs become the new great solution, people will consume to the hilt like a gas expands to fill a closed vessel. Then there will have to be another new solution.
People are the both the problem and the solution- not the machines or technology they employ to externalize the blame & responsibility... EVs are just another way to pretend to do the right thing instead of actually making real sacrifices to live smaller and consume less.
As an easy example- How many people would step up and turn off their A/C at home and work for the rest of their lives in order to use the saved electricity to charge their EV?
-
If I had to do an urban work commute I would be on an electric car and/or bike like flies on honey. Everything makes sense about it. Until range and recharge get quicker (which may come fairly soon) I still want IC for traveling. But when all becomes practical I would have electric vehicles and the T-3 to take out on nice days for glorious joy rides listening to that beautiful engine music. Make believing I am Joe Leno.
GliderJohn
-
Too many people never look at the bigger picture..
The biggest problem with consumers in general is consumption.
Nobody is going to consume less. The solution is less people.
Plus the best technology to allow their individual consumption to be as high as possible within whatever constraints apply.
We are not monks, and will not be in the future.
-
You guys resisting EV has become comical, shaking your little T-Rex fists at the oncoming EV glacier.
-AJ
I've worked in the field since 1995, directly in R&D of electric vehicle propulsion since 2012, including having engineering responsibility for development budgets in the range of tens of millions of dollars. Wanting a certain dogma to come true doesn't mean its going to :wink:
-
Understand the thrust of your argument here but a few extra dimensions. The biggest limiting factor with electric vehicles is the battery technology, a battery simply cannot compete with the energy density of gasoline, it's around 1/100th that of gasoline. The battery has been around now for 221 years (invented practically in 1800) so it's had well over 200 years of development to date and is still a million miles short of the energy density of gasoline. Of course the development isn't linier for all sorts of reasons so we won't go down that path but the example of the ICE in 1880 has a few problems as well due to the fact that the ICE was competing against a horse basically as a mode of transport for the individual and therefor the future potential was blindingly obvious which drove the development at a high rate. Not quite the same dynamic for the development trajectory of the battery.
Truth is I'm all for electric modes of transport I just don't see them as something that will replace the ICE anytime in the foreseeable future. I believe we will end up with a mix of battery powered vehicles that provide utility in their space and the ICE the same. A mixed outcome.
Ciao
Batteries are far predate 1800 AD. Bagdad battery predates Christ.
-
Batteries are far predate 1800 AD. Bagdad battery predates Christ.
No evidence exists that the Baghdad battery was really a battery . What would they have been powering with electricity ?
Dusty
-
Ah yes the electric motor and battery are amazing new tech.
LOL! You forgot to drink the Kool Aid!
-
I've worked in the field since 1995, directly in R&D of electric vehicle propulsion since 2012, including having engineering responsibility for development budgets in the range of tens of millions of dollars. Wanting a certain dogma to come true doesn't mean its going to :wink:
Well said, I wish more people understood. If I had a nickel for every EV "Google PhD" out there.....
-
I am wishing I had closed the deal on the EV car I almost bought at the beginning of this year with the lines at the gas pumps and stations running out in the southeast.
I would definitely own an electric motorcycle and enjoyed the Livewire test ride so much that if I were a rich man I would definitely own one and ride it every chance I could.
When I ride around and see all the million dollar homes I know there are plenty of people out there that don't blink at $100,000 cars and $30,000 motorcycles.
Harley is probably spinning off the electric division because those who would buy electric are afraid of the big bad bikers at the Harley Dealerships. They want mocha lattes while they look at the electric offerings, no beer in the blue can.
-
All progress is hard , there is never some big leap forward , simply a series of incremental gains that add up eventually . With some of you guys in charge we would never have managed the moon shot.
Here is what I can observe , battery powered hand tools are so much better now than what we were using in the trades 30 , 20 , 10 , even 2 years ago. The batteries are 1/3rd the size , more powerful , and last longer . Even the cheap cordless tools from HF are better than the best blue Makita from 1995, yes a different scale , but a good bit of the tech transfers . Nor making any predictions as to when , but sorry , expecting some giant leap in less than 10 years is silly , that doesn't mean it isn't happening .
Dusty
-
Batteries are far predate 1800 AD. Bagdad battery predates Christ.
You notice I said "practically" as in a practically workable battery.
Ciao
-
Look fellas , keep your political beliefs out of this , capeesh ?
Dusty
-
I am wishing I had closed the deal on the EV car I almost bought at the beginning of this year with the lines at the gas pumps and stations running out in the southeast.
I would definitely own an electric motorcycle and enjoyed the Livewire test ride so much that if I were a rich man I would definitely own one and ride it every chance I could.
When I ride around and see all the million dollar homes I know there are plenty of people out there that don't blink at $100,000 cars and $30,000 motorcycles.
I wished I would bought plywood and 2 x 4's last year.
Harley is probably spinning off the electric division because those who would buy electric are afraid of the big bad bikers at the Harley Dealerships. They want mocha lattes while they look at the electric offerings, no beer in the blue can.
-
Think about it. If technology didn't progress, we'd all be having this internet conversation in the dark :thumb:
-
I don't understand the skepticism about converting to a new "fueling" infrastructure. Ford sold its first Model A in 1903. Until 1905 motorists bought gasoline in tins, at pharmacies. That year the Bowser pump came on the market. Hardware stores could buy barrels of gasoline, put them out on the curb and pump directly into the vehicle. The first real drive-in gas station didn't arrive until the end of 1913 -- ten years after Ford sold his first mass-produced car. At that point US carmakers were selling less than 500,000 cars a year. Tesla sold more cars in 2020 than the entire auto industry did in 1913. And the US had 100,000 public EV charging outlets in February, per the Dept of Energy. The changeover is happening orders of magnitude faster than the adoption of IC cars.
-
Look fellas , keep your political beliefs out of this , capeesh ?
Dusty
Not being combative her but "political beliefs"? Please give give me a heads up on this because I reviewed the posts on this page and can't find anything. Am I missing something?
Ciao
-
I was talking to some motorcycle fans at our local shopping mall vintage motorcycle display a couple weeks back, one of them told me her brother in law just bought a brand new Livewire from one of the local HD dealerships for about 3/5ths the MSRP. With this news that HD is dropping the Livewire the blow out sale price makes sense.
-
Not being combative her but "political beliefs"? Please give give me a heads up on this because I reviewed the posts on this page and can't find anything. Am I missing something?
Ciao
Wonder why that is Phil ?
Dusty
-
Wonder why that is Phil ?
Dusty
Please PM me
Ciao
-
I can't help but think that Guzzi made their 1100 EV for some years and now it too is gone. Back to smaller more efficient IC motors again! ;-)
-
The Live Wire may be the best bike Harley had ever made. Have you looked at one? I mean really, in the flesh? The suspension, the frame, the whole package is neat, compact, well engineered from front to back. It makes their V-twin bikes look like steam engines ( and I'm no electric fan-boy). Everybody I know that has ridden one (including me) says the same thing...if it was $15,000 instead of $29,000, they'd buy one. It is (was?) that good.
-
Harley Accountin is probably trying to isolate the carnage to one arm...that way it’ll cut off cleanly
As per the gas shortage, what can i say but,..
“MOPEDS FOR SALE! GET YOUR MOPEDS!”
(https://i.ibb.co/dktkQdH/F68-D04-F3-9-A9-C-4-FD4-968-B-773-D58-AE8-FA1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dktkQdH)
-
Tesla must be doing something right, they sold 200,561 cars last year
Just this morning I was looking over their new charging station, 12 just like this
(https://i.ibb.co/VLBH5hf/EPSON-MFP-image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VLBH5hf)
I imagine it will have quite an effect on adjacent restaurants and businesses.
I don't think I will ever buy an EV unless its an electric wheel chair, lol
-
I'd like to demo one, and I like the idea. I worry the lifespan of the battery, and about it's capability to fully charge over time. Unlike an EV car, an electric motorcycle is not going to be basic transportation for most, it's a toy. What's it going to cost to replace the batteries? Do you just throw the bike away at that point? My 52 year old guzzi runs like a top.
-
I'd like to demo one, and I like the idea. I worry the lifespan of the battery, and about it's capability to fully charge over time. Unlike an EV car, an electric motorcycle is not going to be basic transportation for most, it's a toy. What's it going to cost to replace the batteries? Do you just throw the bike away at that point? My 52 year old guzzi runs like a top.
One of the major issues with electric car batteries is the cooling system for the battery pack. Nissan Leafs for example dont use a cooling system and the life of the battery is majorly affected by things like the climate the car is driven and parked in. Is the car parked in a relatively cool garage or in the sun in the street. It's apparently a big issue when purchasing a second hand one as the battery degradation due to simple environmental operating conditions can make such a difference to battery life that even a low mileage/age one can ultimately be uneconomical to purchase due to battery degradation and the required battery replacement cost. Your Leaf that doesn't have an enormous range anyway all of a sudden has 20% less in 2 years because of the climate its operated in and parked. Expensive cars like the Tesla have quite sophisticated battery cooling systems and don't seem to be significantly affected. I'm not sure what most motorcycles use in this regards but as I said the cooling of the batteries is a significant issue with regards to capacity degradation and ultimately life span.
Ciao
-
introduction of EV will be purely dictated by price , right now the price per mile is pretty similar with a IC, because of the higher initial purchase.
in a couple of years with the price of batteries dropping rapidly the price of a new EV will be lower than a IC model , ( expected 2027)
by then you will need to have a really good reason to spend the extra money just to get the additional range or ease of filling up. .
its just a matter of time A IC car will be like a stickshift car, you really need to have a special reason to buy one of those.
Personally i cant wait for the cheap chinese EV to flood the EVmarket,
for me a car is a cheap way to go from point A to point B, i dont need a tesla with autopilot to get my groceries.
same with electric motorcycles ,
but right now value for money is just not there for current electric motorcycles ,
i would happily do my 60 mile/day commute on a electric motorcycle, just not at the prices the zero/livewire/energica go for.
-
I fired up the bike for the first time in a month.. it just stopped raining, and warmed up a little after a cold wet month.. Well its warming, and Im getting my helmet on, and ..... gas is pouring out of the fuel filter aera... Kinda wish I had a electric bike right now... :) Ive been watching some videos on electric trail bikes, and it really looks kinda cool. I would really like to try one. Not sure Im ready to give up in IC.. I love my gas engines, and really enjoy my old tech V8's! But really.. I welcome the change, and the option of a different way. Will it do it all?? Not for me, now. Am I looking hard into one of the new rechargeable lawn tractors for the yard? You bet!! Would I like a nice smaller dual sport for buzzing around the back roads around home, or hitting a trail? Yup. I hope whatever HD has planned for the LW works out for them. Its not for everyone, but I think its a big step forward for the tech. And you know... think how much more press the Zero got since the LW came out. Even if they kick it to the side, the ball is thrown. The thoughts, ideas, and advancements are out there. Someone else will come out with a bike, and I really hope its another big brand that will move the idea to the forefront . Frankly its not up to us... Most of us have what...20 years left on this earth? The world is for the next generation, and we will see what they want. I just hope they keep some of the fun, and freedom in it, so they can enjoy the feeling of riding like we do.
-
So, here is the stupid question of the day. Untill the batteries get better I can't believe a simple 4 stroke 30-50CC trimmer motor like Stihl sells couldn't spin an alternator to re-charge the batteries on an EV bike. Sure it won't be a full blown EV but good enough. Tops with a gallon of gas would be 15-18 LBS.
-
I have no PHD on this subject or as far as that goes in any subjects. However in most cases common sense does me well.
You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken $#|+ therefore don’t except much of anything other than simply thinks like flashlights, weed eaters,etc, to run efficiently on battery power. Especially anything which weighs as much as a ton.
-
Everyone is getting amped up over this, the IC engine is sick and it’s terminal. In the future, the bright sparks will go electric or take the bus.
No need to be negative about the concept when the future is so positive, resistance is futile, there is massive potential in the concept.
If you conduct a survey, you might get a shock at how ready the public is for these. Initial reluctance is just one single phase in the love hate relationship that these things are at the centre of.
Once you throw the switch and take one ohm, you and the bike will become fused and you’ll wonder why you didn’t charge in and get one sooner...
I saw an electric trials bike that effortlessly volted over a huge bridge in Wheatstone near where I live.
A petrol bike would have fallen flat, charge on in an make enquiries.. hurry last days, stocks are limited...!
The potential difference is astonishing...
Holy cow, Huzo. That was electrifying. I think you scored every single pun bar that one. Greedy, TBH! :azn:
-
i have only one issue with electric vehicles, they MUST run on electricity...while Internal combustion engines can run on a variety of fuels. but due to my age, this wont be much of a worry for me, however my grandkids will have to suffer our choices today. and using some basic logic, i see the answer as a mix....
population keep growing as an exponent, cities will get denser, perfect environment for short range EV, probably community owned cars pooled about town.. (yuck)
rural areas with long distance needs and farm tools working massive acreages will still use IC.
rural peeps "popping" into town will most likely be required to park the "dirty" truck at the edge of town, and jump into a "clean" social EV...(eeeewww)
then a few decades later, it will come out that the lithium mines are poisoning our environment, and battery recycling is a "dirty" process, and the KVA taxes have gotten out of hand, so some genius has developed a self propelled device and it's ready to market...!
-
Research of Lithium and Cobalt mining was shocking!
-
Research of Lithium and Cobalt mining was shocking!
Yes, the good and bad of both sources of fuel.
"Lithium is used in batteries for electric cars, cellphones, computers and other electric devices, as well as power-grid storage systems, because it’s light and highly conductive. Most lithium isn’t mined. More than 95 per cent comes from pumping underground brine into pans, allowing the liquid to evaporate and separating out the lithium using electrolysis.
Any real comparison between oilsands and lithium batteries shows that oilsands products, from extracting and processing to transporting and burning, are by far the most destructive. Extraction and production destroy habitat, pollute air, land and water and produce greenhouse gas emissions. Burning the fuels causes toxic pollution and wreaks havoc with Earth’s climate.
Does that mean batteries are environmentally benign? No. All energy sources and technologies have some environmental impact — one reason energy conservation is crucial. A 2010 study comparing the environmental impacts of electric cars to internal combustion vehicles found the latter are far more damaging, taking into account global warming potential, cumulative energy demand and resource depletion. Battery components, including lithium, can also be recycled, and used electric car batteries can be repurposed to store energy for homes, buildings and power grids."
https://davidsuzuki.org/story/renewable-energy-isnt-perfect-far-better-fossil-fuels/
And then there is this:
"The Deepwater Horizon oil spill was an industrial disaster that began on 20 April 2010, in the Gulf of Mexico on the BP-operated Macondo Prospect, considered to be the largest marine oil spill in the history of the petroleum industry and estimated to be 8 to 31 percent larger in volume than the previous largest, the Ixtoc I oil spill, also in the Gulf of Mexico. The U.S. federal government estimated the total discharge at 4.9 million barrels (210 million US gal; 780,000 m3).After several failed efforts to contain the flow, the well was declared sealed on 19 September 2010. Reports in early 2012 indicated that the well site was still leaking. The Deepwater Horizon oil spill is regarded as one of the largest environmental disasters in American history."
(https://cdn.britannica.com/58/139558-050-9EEE9E93/Fireboat-response-crews-blaze-oil-rig-Deepwater-April-21-2010.jpg)
-
Well, after this pipeline hacking by the russian criminal group, and being out of gasoline down here in Tennessee/Georgia areas, electric bikes dont sound so bad to me.....
-
Well, after this pipeline hacking by the russian criminal group, and being out of gasoline down here in Tennessee/Georgia areas, electric bikes dont sound so bad to me.....
and how does that happen ??? who didn't do their job ??? is there an agenda ???
oops, did i say that out loud ?
-
and how does that happen ??? who didn't do their job ??? is there an agenda ???
oops, did i say that out loud ?
Criminals have been doing this for awhile and Colonial Pipeline wasn't sufficiently protecting their computer network.
Money was the agenda.
-
I have no PHD on this subject or as far as that goes in any subjects. However in most cases common sense does me well.
You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken $#|+ therefore don’t except much of anything other than simply thinks like flashlights, weed eaters,etc, to run efficiently on battery power. Especially anything which weighs as much as a ton.
It's all proportional Dan , why would a 100 HP brushless electric motor be any less efficient per gram of weight than a .5 HP motor ?
Dusty
-
So, here is the stupid question of the day. Untill the batteries get better I can't believe a simple 4 stroke 30-50CC trimmer motor like Stihl sells couldn't spin an alternator to re-charge the batteries on an EV bike. Sure it won't be a full blown EV but good enough. Tops with a gallon of gas would be 15-18 LBS.
Kind of the concept of a plugin hybrid.. I think the concept is a great one, and one that I expect to see much more in the future.. might be a bit of extra complexity on a motorcycle though.
-
It's all proportional Dan , why would a 100 HP brushless electric motor be any less efficient per gram of weight than a .5 HP motor ?
Dusty
It's nothing to do with scaling the motor or efficiency. The power and energy requirement does not scale linearly with the size of the vehicle, it tends to scale with the weight of the vehicle, which scales as the cube: A vehicle twice the size takes eight times the power because its eight times heavier. The battery weight then increases with the power x time.
-
Shocking.
-
I've been riding an EV for years:
V11 EV
-
I've been riding an EV for years:
V11 EV
I was waiting for someone to point that out. :grin:
-
It's nothing to do with scaling the motor or efficiency. The power and energy requirement does not scale linearly with the size of the vehicle, it tends to scale with the weight of the vehicle, which scales as the cube: A vehicle twice the size takes eight times the power because its eight times heavier. The battery weight then increases with the power x time.
Yes ... and ?
Dusty
-
Scaling up propulsion with vehicle size places a highly nonproportional burden on propulsion power density. What is easy for a very small vehicle becomes very difficult for a larger vehicle. This is the basics, if you can't understand it I'd suggest further study might be a good idea :wink:
-
Scaling up propulsion with vehicle size places a highly nonproportional burden on propulsion power density. What is easy for a very small vehicle becomes very difficult for a larger vehicle. This is the basics, if you can't understand it I'd suggest further study might be a good idea :wink:
Actually I've been studying this since about 1980 , no one said this was gonna be easy , neither was developing the modern IC engine . Tesla seems to have solved at least some of the problems , maybe you could learn from their engineers , dunno .
Dusty
-
I have Tesla engineers working for me, actually :grin: Or they were before we cherry picked them.
Scaling issues are why electric model airplanes climb at 45 degrees with huge excess power, but we're having this discussion about larger applications. Nothing in scaling propulsion is directly proportional to size, it gets more difficult with increased size.
-
How 'bout those Zero EV’s?
Sorry couldn’t resist, I’ll let myself out.
inditx
-
I've been riding an EV for years:
V11 EV
Guzzi V11 EV. EV designation was for "Environmental Vandal" :tongue:
Ciao
-
Guzzi V11 EV. EV designation was for "Environmental Vandal" :tongue:
Ciao
So you know how rich mine runs. :sad:
-
For what it is worth the latest issue of Consumer Reports says concerning the current state of the art (referring to cars but should apply to bikes)...
The batteries will lose about 5% of their capacity per year so in five years you are down 25%. Concerning reliability, they are saying the batteries will not have any sudden failures anymore often than current IC engines do nor cost anymore to replace than a IC engine.
Remember we do not have to wait for only the batteries to get better and more efficient but the motors will too. It will also make life much less complicated for things that are not always used regularly like boats, airplanes, lawn equipment and motorcycles. I think exciting times are a coming.
GliderJohn
-
It's nothing to do with scaling the motor or efficiency. The power and energy requirement does not scale linearly with the size of the vehicle, it tends to scale with the weight of the vehicle, which scales as the cube: A vehicle twice the size takes eight times the power because its eight times heavier. The battery weight then increases with the power x time.
Yep, just like common sense dictates👍
Thank you
-
Odd isn't it , there are thousands of Teslas going about their intended function every day .
Dusty
-
Odd isn't it , there are thousands of Teslas going about their intended function every day .
Dusty
I can see your point however is Tesla’s the exception to the rule and are there still issues for the owners?
-
I can see your point however is Tesla’s the exception to the rule and are there still issues for the owners?
Tesla is proof of concept . Dan , the tankless water heater on your cabin , do you know how many plumbers have swore and be damned they don't
work ? "Why would anyone want one of those contraptions when a perfectly good old style tank is available?" . Yeah , I have been hearing that for years, meanwhile there are at least 20 I have installed on remodels that have been working wonderfully , some for 20 years now . An engineer even told me they don't work , and by gawd he should know , being an engineer and all .
See the issue , we have actual working examples of the technology , right in front of our eyes , and yet some would have you believe it is an impossibility . Do we have a ways to go , well sure , will we get there , betting yes .
Dusty
-
I loffset my carbon footprint by cutting out red meat.
If you purchase an EV for environmental reasons, you have to consider the source of electricity.
If your electricity comes from a coal fire power plant, then what's the point ?
If you electricity comes from wind turbines, solar, etc, then maybe your doing some good.
I'm interested in the speed and possible performance applications with electric bikes.
https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/ (https://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/)
-
I was talking to some motorcycle fans at our local shopping mall vintage motorcycle display a couple weeks back, one of them told me her brother in law just bought a brand new Livewire from one of the local HD dealerships for about 3/5ths the MSRP. With this news that HD is dropping the Livewire the blow out sale price makes sense.
I need to start looking. $18k is more in the competitive price range for these bikes.
-
"Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/harley-davidson-launches-all-electric-motorcycle-brand-livewire-2021-05-10/
-
There have been thousands of electirc subs, for over a century, in fact there are still hundreds in use around the world. They are hybrids, charged by IC, but they seem to work very dam well.
-
when an electric truck can pull a 15000lb trailer 400 miles and then refill in 15 minutes and go another 400 miles, I'll be first in line
-
When considering the environment there are 4 rules to keep in mind.
Rules of Nature (in no particular order)
1. Everything has to go somewhere;
2. Everything is connected to everything else;
3. There is no free lunch;
4. Nature bats last.
-
Well, after this pipeline hacking by the russian criminal group, and being out of gasoline down here in Tennessee/Georgia areas, electric bikes dont sound so bad to me.....
And you think that can't happen to the electric power distribution grid?
-
"Rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated."
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/harley-davidson-launches-all-electric-motorcycle-brand-livewire-2021-05-10/
I read this as they will set up a diffrent form of retail other than or along with the normal HD dealers.
-
When considering the environment there are 4 rules to keep in mind.
Rule of Nature (in no particular order)
1. Everything has to go somewhere;
2. Everything is connected to everything else;
3. There is no free lunch;
4. Nature bats last.
You left out #5 Mo, $#|+ runs down hill😂😂😉🤔🥵
-
You left out #5 Mo, $#|+ runs down hill😂😂😉🤔🥵
Its actually a corollary to #1 :thumb: :grin:
-
Its actually a corollary to #1 :thumb: :grin:
Lol, got me on that one🤔
-
to me the battery already has an advantage in terms of re-fueling, my daily trips could be re-fueled at home so I never have to visit a gas station and wait for a re-fill, so an EV would spend less of my time re-fueling. It's only the long trips that would be an issue, and that is far less miles than the short trips, so overall an electric vehicle would waste less time in re-fueling stations. YMMV
-
when an electric truck can pull a 15000lb trailer 400 miles and then refill in 15 minutes and go another 400 miles, I'll be first in line
What ICE Truck can do that? Trucks have 50 gallon tanks these days? I know your not getting fuel economy pulling 15,000 lbs.
-
to me the battery already has an advantage in terms of re-fueling, my daily trips could be re-fueled at home so I never have to visit a gas station and wait for a re-fill, so an EV would spend less of my time re-fueling. It's only the long trips that would be an issue, and that is far less miles than the short trips, so overall an electric vehicle would waste less time in re-fueling stations. YMMV
Heck , I've already saved at least 2 trips for gasoline to power a lawn mower , and sure as heck don't miss mixing oil in gas for the trimmer . I see the peasants carrying gas cans to the C stores and shopping for 2 smoker oil , meanwhile I am already done with lawn mowing . It's good to be the king .
Dusty
-
Plenty of diesel trucks can pull 15000lbs 400 miles.
-
Hi all.
About a month ago I bought a MG ZS EV. That's a small SUV, electric powered, with at 44.5kWh battery. 263 km range. It was AUD43,990. Why buy it? Well my wife and I decided that for long distance stuff we'll take the plane, train or Guzzi. And we wanted to find out about electric vehicles, and save the planet. We do about 200km per week. We installed a fast charge outlet (AUD2400) which gives 32A at 240V (7kW).
After a month of usage we love it. It's got great performance, is quiet and smooth, and is really convenient to charge. 7hr to full charge from empty. It's increased our power bill by about 40%, but it was low to start with.
What they don't tell you: The on-board 7kW charger is only single phase, so you can't take advantage of public 3-phase chargers. Well, you can use them, but they don't charge any faster than using the 7kW unit. You can use public 50kW rapid DC chargers, but after a few times using them you need to do a slow charge to equalize the batteries.
So that's the experience so far. Very happy. It's great if you don't want to do a lot of long distance stuff, or as a second car. We have only the MG and the Guzzi.
Extrapolating this to motorcycles, you'd probably need 1/3 of all the car capacities, so 15kWh battery (100kg), 30kW motor, probably 200kg overall, and you'd end up with about the same range. There would have to be a built-in charger. But this ain't a touring motorcycle. The battery tech is not there yet.
Gonzo
-
Plenty of diesel trucks can pull 15000lbs 400 miles.
A quick search came up with 8 MPG at interstate speeds for dually diesel trucks. Slightly better at 60 mph. 400 miles would require 50 gallons which is the largest tank size I found as an option. Most people who tow don't risk getting below a quarter of a tank. So yep, you might be able to, but then you might be in your camper on the side of the road if you don't roll into a station at 400 miles.
-
Or, I have an aux tank in the bed. Just sayin.............. ....
Not trying to be pissy, mind. I'm quite sure no electric work truck currently offered would make one long day here in the northeast plowing at zero degrees for 12 hours.
-
A quick search came up with 8 MPG at interstate speeds for dually diesel trucks. Slightly better at 60 mph. 400 miles would require 50 gallons which is the largest tank size I found as an option. Most people who tow don't risk getting below a quarter of a tank. So yep, you might be able to, but then you might be in your camper on the side of the road if you don't roll into a station at 400 miles.
OK, I can solve this. External auxiliary tanks can easily be installed in the pickup bed. My Duramax carries an extra 40 gallons for a total of 64 gallons of fuel. My truck can pull a 15k 5th wheel. My Toy Hauler trailer is about 11k max loaded and I get about 8-11 mpg towing and up to 17 mpg empty. My overall mileage is 13+ mpg.
This debate really has little to do with the price of tea in China.
-
Hi all.
About a month ago I bought a MG ZS EV. That's a small SUV, electric powered, with at 44.5kWh battery. 263 km range. It was AUD43,990. Why buy it? Well my wife and I decided that for long distance stuff we'll take the plane, train or Guzzi. And we wanted to find out about electric vehicles, and save the planet. We do about 200km per week. We installed a fast charge outlet (AUD2400) which gives 32A at 240V (7kW).
After a month of usage we love it. It's got great performance, is quiet and smooth, and is really convenient to charge. 7hr to full charge from empty. It's increased our power bill by about 40%, but it was low to start with.
What they don't tell you: The on-board 7kW charger is only single phase, so you can't take advantage of public 3-phase chargers. Well, you can use them, but they don't charge any faster than using the 7kW unit. You can use public 50kW rapid DC chargers, but after a few times using them you need to do a slow charge to equalize the batteries.
So that's the experience so far. Very happy. It's great if you don't want to do a lot of long distance stuff, or as a second car. We have only the MG and the Guzzi.
Extrapolating this to motorcycles, you'd probably need 1/3 of all the car capacities, so 15kWh battery (100kg), 30kW motor, probably 200kg overall, and you'd end up with about the same range. There would have to be a built-in charger. But this ain't a touring motorcycle. The battery tech is not there yet.
Gonzo
Onya Gonzo
My wife has wanted an ecar for several years, unfortunately where we live and she drives, only a Tesla would give range, even the airport return would be questionable with your range. Vic government has just put the kybosh on any future development too, with extra tax for electric vehicles, wtf!
But I have done a few miles in a Renault Zoe in UK and quickly learnt range is all to do with driver, not car. It had a gauge on dash called “anticipation”, all vehicles should have one. I got top score and when I gave it back to my sister in law, the computer said she had nearly twice her normal range, no, she didn’t.
We’ve gone a completely sideways route, in lockdown we discoverd bicycles, I fixed up a couple of dumpies and we did lots of (local ) miles. I also recommissioned my old Loopy and finally got a road trip to Tassy in Feb.
My good friend there had spent lockdown building ebikes and he lit my fuse.
Within a week of coming home I’d built my first one and last week finished my wife’s.
Wednesday this week we did the first of hopefully many “small” adventures, we’ve travelled the world by Guzzi, in our dotage going slow and nowhere near as far is sounding good. You see a lot more at 20mph than 100 !
So we went to French Island, felt like Tassy ferry or English Channel, bikes on board but tied down with bungy cords !
60 odd Km (40 miles) later we got the ferry home, knackered, corrugated roads, deep sand, huge rocks, no people. Natalie said terrain and tracks reminded her of Africa (on Guzzi ) we had our picnic lunch at what is a major intersection on the map.
Nobody in sight or earshot, amazing.
(https://i.ibb.co/YQGL1wM/A1856-F4-D-B266-41-E5-A35-F-2-E6-A05-F20936.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YQGL1wM)
I thoroughly recommend ebikes and French Island to anyone who wants adventure in the slow lane.
$30K livewire for someone else, ours go 100km on a charge, more if you pedal harder.
Next week a few hundred km of rail trails, Guzzis are getting a rest
(https://i.ibb.co/NT071Cg/B3-A52595-1165-4912-9-BF9-AD00-EF61738-C.png) (https://ibb.co/NT071Cg)
-
OK, I can solve this. External auxiliary tanks can easily be installed in the pickup bed. My Duramax carries an extra 40 gallons for a total of 64 gallons of fuel. My truck can pull a 15k 5th wheel. My Toy Hauler trailer is about 11k max loaded and I get about 8-11 mpg towing and up to 17 mpg empty. My overall mileage is 13+ mpg.
This debate really has little to do with the price of tea in China.
Well, if that is the case, then when I buy my electric truck it will come installed with auxiliary batteries in the truck and in the entire length of the trailer extending my range to 2000 miles on a charge. In addition, the entire roof of the RV will be covered in photovoltaic cells to extend my range even further. :grin:
-
Putting solar cells all over seems like a no brainer. I like it!
-
Something like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/dmmLQ0F/Screen-Shot-2021-05-14-at-10-08-48-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/dmmLQ0F)
GliderJohn
-
We bought a 64kw Kia E-Niro last August. Range is around 270 miles in warm weather and 240 miles in winter. At the same time we installed 4kW solar panels. 8 hours to fully charge from 20% on our home 7kW/h charger and it's good to go. Cost 4p (5 cents a mile) in fuel and service costs are 50% less than our Audi. The electricity generated by the solar panels is twice what we use in the car. What's not to like? Cheap comfortable motoring. 👍
-
Well, if that is the case, then when I buy my electric truck it will come installed with auxiliary batteries in the truck and in the entire length of the trailer extending my range to 2000 miles on a charge. In addition, the entire roof of the RV will be covered in photovoltaic cells to extend my range even further. :grin:
My only dog in this fight was proving the challenge that you denied. Easy peasy. Regarding your proposed alternative, it's total bullshit. :grin:
I'm on record here as proppant of EVs, partulcalrly when the next generation promises to have greater range and lower costs and more charging stations. Elon says he'll have a pickup and a semi, so the referenced challenge may be proved sooner rather than later. As a diesel owner that pulls a travel trailer, I'm of great interest. What I don't understand is that Ford has come out with a hybrid pickup truck with a built in generator but has only offered it in the F-150, not the three quarter and one ton class.
-
My only dog in this fight was proving the challenge that you denied. Easy peasy. Regarding your proposed alternative, it's total bullshit. :grin:
I'm on record here as proppant of EVs, partulcalrly when the next generation promises to have greater range and lower costs and more charging stations. Elon says he'll have a pickup and a semi, so the referenced challenge may be proved sooner rather than later. As a diesel owner that pulls a travel trailer, I'm of great interest. What I don't understand is that Ford has come out with a hybrid pickup truck with a built in generator but has only offered it in the F-150, not the three quarter and one ton class.
Yea and they offer two size generators. I’m not sure what the output is on either but it’s my understanding that power tool can be ran off the larger one.
-
A quick search came up with 8 MPG at interstate speeds for dually diesel trucks. Slightly better at 60 mph. 400 miles would require 50 gallons which is the largest tank size I found as an option. Most people who tow don't risk getting below a quarter of a tank. So yep, you might be able to, but then you might be in your camper on the side of the road if you don't roll into a station at 400 miles.
I agree at 11mpg (what I average) towing and a 36 gallon tank I'm looking at 396. Normally I'm hitting a truck stop well before the 400 just like I'd probably recharge a battery or exchange it before it would be totally drained.
-
I have a Ram and do a little bit better but not by much. I should have kept my old 12 valve, 14 towing and 23 empty. I had a Gear Vendors in it so it would get the 23 mpg at 70 mph. Didn't have near the power that my '13 has.
kk
-
One of my neighbors has a Livewire. I still don't see the appeal at that price range. It sounds like a toy and doesn't really have any specific visual appeal to it. I think they were trying to make it look as much like a normal internal combustion engine bike as possible. Think that was a mistake.
-
One of my neighbors has a Livewire. I still don't see the appeal at that price range. It sounds like a toy and doesn't really have any specific visual appeal to it. I think they were trying to make it look as much like a normal internal combustion engine bike as possible. Think that was a mistake.
Interesting observation , do you think the E bikes should develop a style of their own ? The Zero doesn't make any real pretense of being anything but what it is , any thoughts ?
Dusty
-
I guess it's OK that some of the stuff in those batteries are mined by child labor somewhere in Africa then right?
-
It sounds like a toy and doesn't really have any specific visual appeal to it. I think they were trying to make it look as much like a normal internal combustion engine bike as possible. Think that was a mistake.
You and I see and hear two different things. The Livewire looks about as far from a traditional Harley as you could get. It's been accused of looking like an Electro-Lux vacuum cleaner, but beyond having two wheels and a seat, nothing like a traditional motorcycle.
-
Maybe Electric cars are the wave of the future
and...
maybe Electric motorcycles are too.
I am not interested in either of them for the following reasons in no particular order.
#1 I like the sound and feel of my 1200 V twin Guzzi. The roar and vibration is what makes motorcycling fun.
#2 I like to shift gears to get the best power and cruising speed dialed in.
#3 I can leave right now and travel cross country and take as many back roads as I like and I will find gasoline when I am low. Car and Bike
#4 I think that Electric cars should have a bumper sticker saying this car is powered by coal and natural gas.
#5 If I wanted to travel by golf cart, I would have bought one by now.
#6 There is not a choice of big trucks powered by batteries, and if there was I would not buy one. ( I use a big Van for my business)
-
I guess it's OK that some of the stuff in those batteries are mined by child labor somewhere in Africa then right?
Unfortunately that is true of a lot of things .
Dusty
-
Test rode a Livewire this morning, wow what a cool bike. The quality and finish of the bike are top notch and the power is unbelievable; you really have to hang on under acceleration. Yes, the range is not great but there is a built in system to let you know where the closest charging station is and whether you have enough battery to get to that location. Met a guy at the dealer who was getting some upgrading done to the onboard computer on his bike and he told me about how he took a trip from here(pensacola,Florida) to the Keys, he said it took him longer due to to the charging stops but he had no problems. And tomorrow he was heading up to North Carolina with a stop in Atlanta and he assumed a couple of charging stops between here an Atlanta. He also said that Tesla is coming out with a new battery system and the cells from that battery can be swapped into the Livewire and they estimate a 1,000 mile range before charging that bike.
And the local dealer sold six of those bikes in the last month.
-
The LiveWire is not ugly by a long shot.
-
1000 mile range or even half of that, would be amazing and total game changer.
The energy density of Elon's new wonder battery would have to be extremely high surpassing gasoline and would be a paradigm shift in terms of the technological speed battery progress in making.
I remain somewhat sceptical in the meantime.
My motorcycling days are numbered for sure, so I count myself lucky that I won't have to venture into this Brave new world.
Besides if it doesn't overheat, leak oil, refuse to start, run at half power (one cylinder) and need the pan dropping every year I'm just not interested.
I don't understand the EV argument, in relation to Global warming, until the majority of the grid is generating from renewables the "very old sunshine" is just getting burnt elsewhere.
-
You and I see and hear two different things. The Livewire looks about as far from a traditional Harley as you could get. It's been accused of looking like an Electro-Lux vacuum cleaner, but beyond having two wheels and a seat, nothing like a traditional motorcycle.
There's no reason for the faux fuel tank and in several interviews some of the engineers or tech guys stated that the bike takes some of its visual cues from the XR1200.
-
I don't understand the EV argument, in relation to Global warming, until the majority of the grid is generating from renewables the "very old sunshine" is just getting burnt elsewhere.
This depends on where you live. In Seattle and Vancouver, 98 to 99% of electricity comes from carbon-free sources -- almost 90% is hydro. The Northeast and Quebec have a ton of hydro too. Nationwide, Canada is 67% carbon-free sources now. France is mostly nuclear, Iceland is 100% hydro and geothermal. In 2020 the US grid was 40% carbon-free, including 20% nuclear, 7% hydro, 8% wind etc. Coal was down to 19%. The Northwest gets 2/3 of its power from hydro, Iowa is 54% wind, even Kansas is now 47% wind. We'll be at majority of the grid carbon-free pretty damn soon.
-
I'll test one if and when it will go 225 miles of hard mountain riding. And, TWO in Suches puts in a $1.00 vending machine type charger.
-
......................
I don't understand the EV argument, in relation to Global warming, until the majority of the grid is generating from renewables the "very old sunshine" is just getting burnt elsewhere.
Additionally to TR's point is that the electric is much more efficient than an IC engine and consumes significantly less energy for the driven miles.
-
Yes , the goofy meme that shows an E vehicle hooked to a coal fired power plant is pretty much nonsense .
I'll test one if and when it will go 225 miles of hard mountain riding. And, TWO in Suches puts in a $1.00 vending machine type charger.
Don't blink . As for the $1.00 charging machine , even a small bike is gonna burn 3 gallons of fuel in 225 miles , you do the math .
Most of us will be gone before the IC engine disappears , in discussion with young folks , most don't have a love affair with the design , almost all of them are so accustomed to carrying battery powered devices that the idea of E vehicles fits into their zeitgeist .
Dusty
-
This depends on where you live. In Seattle and Vancouver, 98 to 99% of electricity comes from carbon-free sources -- almost 90% is hydro. The Northeast and Quebec have a ton of hydro too. Nationwide, Canada is 67% carbon-free sources now. France is mostly nuclear, Iceland is 100% hydro and geothermal. In 2020 the US grid was 40% carbon-free, including 20% nuclear, 7% hydro, 8% wind etc. Coal was down to 19%. The Northwest gets 2/3 of its power from hydro, Iowa is 54% wind, even Kansas is now 47% wind. We'll be at majority of the grid carbon-free pretty damn soon.
I must read more, renewables are at a higher percentage than I imagined, here in the UK we are doing pretty well especailly Scotland, which has a head start with some smaller scale Hydro.
-
Carbon free is not the same as renewable. Nuclear doesn't show up as a renewable source. Some folks don't count hydro as renewable. But those are the biggest carbon-free sources. In future, count on tidal power as a major generator. It's not yet big enough to show up in stats. So it's easy to fall for the idea that renewables aren't going to take over soon, ignoring the fact that carbon-free is huge in a lot of places.
-
Certainly in the US, nuclear isn’t going to expand, hydro isn’t going to expand and tidal power etc are pipe dreams. The only renewables that can expand on the grid are solar and wind, assuming permitting were to allow it. Increasingly bigger and better equipment won’t hurt but in order to meet demand for all cars to become electric and renewable powered, solar and wind combined energy on the grid needs to expand by a factor of five (IIRC last time I calculated it), that is assuming that nothing else on the grid also wants to convert to renewable energy.
Electric cars are going to be limited utility commuter vehicles making fairly efficient use of natural gas plus coal generated energy for the foreseeable future, with natural gas increasingly taking over coal. The exception is places like France where they can increase nuclear output if desired, and also where individuals are willing and able to generate their own solar power at home. Break out your credit card if that’s what you want and preferably like ‘everybody else’ move to a place where the sun shines on your property.
-
"Break out your credit card if that’s what you want and preferably like ‘everybody else’ move to a place where the sun shines on your property"
I see more solar panels in upstate NY than I do in Florida.
-
Solar panels generate about 10-25% of sunny day power in poor weather. So everything is fine if your credit card has a proportionately high limit, and your property is large.
-
I guess it's OK that some of the stuff in those batteries are mined by child labor somewhere in Africa then right?
As long as they are making a living wage. :thumb:
There was a time when child labor was the norm, not the exception. Now they are legally children until the age of 27 since they can still be under their parents insurance.
How many of us were delivering papers when we were children?
-
This depends on where you live. In Seattle and Vancouver, 98 to 99% of electricity comes from carbon-free sources -- almost 90% is hydro. The Northeast and Quebec have a ton of hydro too. Nationwide, Canada is 67% carbon-free sources now. France is mostly nuclear, Iceland is 100% hydro and geothermal. In 2020 the US grid was 40% carbon-free, including 20% nuclear, 7% hydro, 8% wind etc. Coal was down to 19%. The Northwest gets 2/3 of its power from hydro, Iowa is 54% wind, even Kansas is now 47% wind. We'll be at majority of the grid carbon-free pretty damn soon.
Don't forget the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). According to energy.gov there are 2400 active hydroelectric plants in the USA.
-
Certainly in the US, nuclear isn’t going to expand, hydro isn’t going to expand and tidal power etc are pipe dreams. The only renewables that can expand on the grid are solar and wind, assuming permitting were to allow it. Increasingly bigger and better equipment won’t hurt but in order to meet demand for all cars to become electric and renewable powered, solar and wind combined energy on the grid needs to expand by a factor of five (IIRC last time I calculated it), that is assuming that nothing else on the grid also wants to convert to renewable energy.
Electric cars are going to be limited utility commuter vehicles making fairly efficient use of natural gas plus coal generated energy for the foreseeable future, with natural gas increasingly taking over coal. The exception is places like France where they can increase nuclear output if desired, and also where individuals are willing and able to generate their own solar power at home. Break out your credit card if that’s what you want and preferably like ‘everybody else’ move to a place where the sun shines on your property.
Why do you say Hydro isn't going to expand? According to energy.gov there are 80.000 dams in the US with 2400 producing electricity. Hydro could easily expand without being a blemish on the landscape like wind turbines.
-
Why do you say Hydro isn't going to expand? According to energy.gov there are 80.000 dams in the US with 2400 producing electricity. Hydro could easily expand without being a blemish on the landscape like wind turbines.
For better or worse, there are a lot of people in the US who don’t like dams, generally as a result of the their environmental impact. I’m sure more will be built in places like a China, but not in the US. This article lays out some of the ‘issues’ that people discuss.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/after-a-long-boom-an-uncertain-future-for-big-dam-projects
In my area we have a number of dams providing water reservoirs. When the local government found cracks in one of them, they lowered the water level for safety then started planning a replacement in essentially the same location. After about a decade of planning and design, the state government ruled that they couldn’t raise the water level if they built a new dam, because the environment on the shoreline of the reservoir had reverted to a natural state. So now they are starting over with a plan to repair the existing 100 year old dam, at great expense added to already sunk money. This is legally different because the water level can be varied behind an existing dam.
That’s the kind of obstacles faced to build a new dam, even when its replacing an existing one.
-
While on the subject of the EV. I just read where Ford is releasing the F150 Lighting and it’s a darn impressive vehicle that I believe will sell like hot cakes. There are two versions of battery power, 230 mile range and a 300 range. I’ve always predicted that once they hit 300 miles they would began to sell in numbers.
However don’t run out snd buy one thinking you’ll best the system because you will be paying a federal government road use tax along with your purchase:( they’ve got you coming snd going)
Yep, and Tennessee gets an extra $100 a year to register an EV.
-
For better or worse, there are a lot of people in the US who don’t like dams, generally as a result of the their environmental impact. I’m sure more will be built in places like a China, but not in the US. This article lays out some of the ‘issues’ that people discuss.
https://e360.yale.edu/features/after-a-long-boom-an-uncertain-future-for-big-dam-projects
In my area we have a number of dams providing water reservoirs. When the local government found cracks in one of them, they lowered the water level for safety then started planning a replacement in essentially the same location. After about a decade of planning and design, the state government ruled that they couldn’t raise the water level if they built a new dam, because the environment on the shoreline of the reservoir had reverted to a natural state. So now they are starting over with a plan to repair the existing 100 year old dam, at great expense added to already sunk money. This is legally different because the water level can be varied behind an existing dam.
That’s the kind of obstacles faced to build a new dam, even when its replacing an existing one.
And what state do you live in sir?
Current dams can be fitted with hydro plants, and there is a lot of untapped potential. Size and output based on flow. My son will generate his winter power through personal hydro because not enough solar collection during the rainy season.
-
Yes , the goofy meme that shows an E vehicle hooked to a coal fired power plant is pretty much nonsense .
Don't blink . As for the $1.00 charging machine , even a small bike is gonna burn 3 gallons of fuel in 225 miles , you do the math .
Most of us will be gone before the IC engine disappears , in discussion with young folks , most don't have a love affair with the design , almost all of them are so accustomed to carrying battery powered devices that the idea of E vehicles fits into their zeitgeist .
Dusty
My "small" bike is a RE 650 GT. I typically go 250 miles or more and then do a 2.2 gallon fill up. The Euro 4 spec ICE's are quite efficient.
-
My "small" bike is a RE 650 GT. I typically go 250 miles or more and then do a 2.2 gallon fill up. The Euro 4 spec ICE's are quite efficient.
Are you claiming over 100 MPG ? I am highly skeptical , sorry bud .
Dusty
-
There is no way you’re getting 113 mpg out of a 650 RE.
-
There is no way you’re getting 113 mpg out of a 650 RE.
Mine gets 58 mpg 2 up carrying a total of 330 lbs rider and pillion on undulating country back roads.
Ciao
-
My "small" bike is a RE 650 GT. I typically go 250 miles or more and then do a 2.2 gallon fill up. The Euro 4 spec ICE's are quite efficient.
I must question this claim. My '21 Royal Enfield 650 Interceptor gets topped off around 150 miles. Takes about 2.2to 2.3 gallons to fill up. This puts the fuel consumption at 65 mpg on average. Did you mean 250 miles between fill-ups or 150 miles? I'm under 140# and ride usually at 50-55 mph on rural TX back roads. I thus am a pretty light consumer of fuel.
Ralph
-
HD is taking the path of least resistance; however, sooner or later they'll have to face the reality. The Livewire project was probably too ambitious and expensive and came too early. But the opportunity is still open to build an electric bike that is approachable to the masses.
May be they should purchase the Zero company and go from there.
-
They can buy Zero then shut them down like they did with Buell and Alta.
-
I reckon it’s funny how some of you guys talk like you have some sort of choice in the matter...
My plan can’t fail.
When I can’t afford to buy fuel for my bike, I’ll die or buy a sailboat.
-
In general the push away from fossil fuels is good…Hopefully the charge won’t be lead by General Custer types who totally underestimate the challange…And I believe we have to try and use less energy overall…And total reliance on the electric grid could be putting all your eggs in one basket..always have a back up plan…
-
I must question this claim. My '21 Royal Enfield 650 Interceptor gets topped off around 150 miles. Takes about 2.2to 2.3 gallons to fill up. This puts the fuel consumption at 65 mpg on average. Did you mean 250 miles between fill-ups or 150 miles? I'm under 140# and ride usually at 50-55 mph on rural TX back roads. I thus am a pretty light consumer of fuel.
Ralph
Sorry. I did screw up the math. More like 150 miles on a 2.3 gallon fill up.
-
BS, MS, piled higher and deeper............. ...
-
Can-Am (2 wheeled) motorcycles return... electric. https://youtu.be/a_9b8WBZIHE
-
Sorry. I did screw up the math. More like 150 miles on a 2.3 gallon fill up.
It was an honest mistake that most folks knew anyhow.
We all have hit the numbers next to one another at some time and failed to proof read their text. I do it much too often.
No foul, Sir👍
Dan
-
The RE 650 has hit a high, for me, of 71 +mpg on a slow backroad trip staying at or below 55 mph. More typically it's gets about 52 city and low to mid 60's hiway.
Still the best combination of power, smoothness and mpg I have ever had in a bike. My old Cali III got me 52 mpg hiway and with that huge tank, I thought that was awesomeness. This bike is a bit smaller and lighter, but almost as much power. And even smoother. I'm serious, with that 270-degree crank, it is so smooth you can read license plates in your rear-view mirrors! Only bike I have had smoother than my old Guzzi's!
-
The RE 650 has hit a high, for me, of 71 +mpg on a slow backroad trip staying at or below 55 mph. More typically it's gets about 52 city and low to mid 60's hiway.
Still the best combination of power, smoothness and mpg I have ever had in a bike. My old Cali III got me 52 mpg hiway and with that huge tank, I thought that was awesomeness. This bike is a bit smaller and lighter, but almost as much power. And even smoother. I'm serious, with that 270-degree crank, it is so smooth you can read license plates in your rear-view mirrors! Only bike I have had smoother than my old Guzzi's!
More the balance shaft than the crank.
Ciao
-
My new Bonneville is also very smooth. It is a parallel twin with a 270* crank and counter balancer. My Audace was pretty smooth but the Bonneville may be a little better. The Audace I used to have liked to run at 3,800+, the Triumph likes it around 2,800 or so. Both are smoother than my V7lll, but it likes to really wound up.
kk
-
Everyone is getting amped up over this, the IC engine is sick and it’s terminal. In the future, the bright sparks will go electric or take the bus.
No need to be negative about the concept when the future is so positive, resistance is futile, there is massive potential in the concept.
If you conduct a survey, you might get a shock at how ready the public is for these. Initial reluctance is just one single phase in the love hate relationship that these things are at the centre of.
Once you throw the switch and take one ohm, you and the bike will become fused and you’ll wonder why you didn’t charge in and get one sooner...
I saw an electric trials bike that effortlessly volted over a huge bridge in Wheatstone near where I live.
A petrol bike would have fallen flat, charge on in an make enquiries.. hurry last days, stocks are limited...!
The potential difference is astonishing...
Brilliant!
-
Electric motors replacing gas engines or plug in motors makes sense when the use is intermittent. Homeowner's lawn equipment, power hand tools, Trials Bikes, Average distance commuters, etc.
They still don't make sense for continuous use applications.
In the 1970s the factory I worked in as a teenager used electric battery powered fork trucks and pallet jacks.
Do a little research on where the lithium for the batteries will be mined.
Think about the rising cost of electricity when it replaces gasoline. Think about the life cycle of the batteries and solar panels as well as where the materials for solar panels come from.
Sure, electric is convenient for the consumer, but is it going to be practical.
-
electric is convenient for the consumer, but is it going to be practical.
My 2c...
Global population continues to rise at an exponent, More and more energy is going to be required, Expanding battery powered devices will be necessary, however it will not reduce carbon based fuel usage. Where exactly the line of practicality will be remains to be seen, but I know this, a battery powered mower for my pasture isn't going to work out very well, 18 wheelers are probably not going to be electric along with your pleasure boat.
So city driving, yard care equipment, motorcycles, are good applications for the electric prime movers. Long distance driving, heavy haulers, dirt-working, Air travel, over-sea, etc.. will likely never use electric as the prime mover...
For those that are truly concerned with energy consumption, I ask you this... why don't we put the same effort/interest in a few trans continental high speed rail lines and eliminate the massive fuel consumption of over the road trucking (along with the hazard of having them on the same road as a Nissan leaf). This will also reduce the amount of air travel that is also not fuel efficient and not emission regulated.
From what i see and hear, we would prefer to argue about the cause and effect of our personal wheels, and not something that would create a real change on not only our energy usage, but our capability as a nation moving into the future...
-
Kids, please don't F*&$@ up my thread by sending it down an internet blackhole of unsupported he said, she said. The conversation you guys want to have about the merits of power generation is one that can be had, just not here.
-
Kids, please don't F*&$@ up my thread by sending it down an internet blackhole of unsupported he said, she said. The conversation you guys want to have about the merits of power generation is one that can be had, just not here.
👍
-
My 2c...
Global population continues to rise at an exponent,
Are you sure about that? The indicators I am seeing don't back up an exponential growth. More like a decline in growth.
-
Kids, please don't F*&$@ up my thread by sending it down an internet blackhole of unsupported he said, she said. The conversation you guys want to have about the merits of power generation is one that can be had, just not here.
You have the power to nuke the entire thread and start another one with more current information. It makes more sense for Harley to spin off the EVs and focus them in cities where EVs shine. Doesn't make sense for every dealership to carry them because they don't yet make sense out in the country.
-
I do not have the power to lock a thread, nor do you.
-
Lets kept it on the topic gentleman. Thanks
Dan