Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stratodisaster on August 30, 2021, 05:11:16 PM
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I assumed the breva was identical to the Norge as far as ergonomics but looking at some pics of the breva it looks like the breva has a more upright body position. I thought a Norge was just a breva with extra Tupperware. Anybody ever ridden both to compare
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I assumed the breva was identical to the Norge as far as ergonomics but looking at some pics of the breva it looks like the breva has a more upright body position. I thought a Norge was just a breva with extra Tupperware. Anybody ever ridden both to compare
Norge is a 1200 cc...Breva had a 750 (Baby Breva) and 1100 version, and I think the Breva 1200 was the 1200 Sport...same engine as the Norge but "tuned" differently.
There is an ergo website someone had where you can compare the two bikes side by side, so you can put in which "version" of the Breva you are looking at.
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What he said. #1
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I see you're relatively new to WG. Welcome! In case you haven't encountered the 1200 Sport, here's one. I rode this bike for 10 years until a younger rider purchased this lovely Guzzi from me. What you see in the video is a 2008 1200 Sport (only year in the USA) with Aprilia Mana handlebars, Hepco Becker pannier mounts and hard bags. The exhaust note is stock. Wonderful bike, IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6_9hy8DCac
Bob
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Besides subtle engine differences I believe they all had different final drive ratios (Breva 1100, Breva 1200, and Norge)
Though I never rode a Norge I've heard enough reports that many me think, ironically, that the Norge routed engine heat away from the rider better then the Breva 1100 (which was a sauna over 80°F ambient).
I do think the Norge and B11 had very similar ergos though. The Sport was likely different from the bar perspective.
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I see you're relatively new to WG. Welcome! In case you haven't encountered the 1200 Sport, here's one. I rode this bike for 10 years until a younger rider purchased this lovely Guzzi from me. What you see in the video is a 2008 1200 Sport (only year in the USA) with Aprilia Mana handlebars, Hepco Becker pannier mounts and hard bags. The exhaust note is stock. Wonderful bike, IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6_9hy8DCac
Bob
LOL, one of the things I like about WG is that at 57, I am described as 'younger' :cool:
OP - I owned a 2014 8V Norge, and own the above mentioned 1200 Sport Breva. I've never ridden an 1100 or baby Breva.
The Basic chassis, frame, tank, fenders, and seating/pegs are very similar if not exactly the same for the 1200 Sport and Norge, but the Norge has a different handlebar setup. The Norge has individual risers with bar stub, and the 1200Sport has a traditional handlebar on risers.
Norge Bars
(https://i.ibb.co/8554zYJ/6000000027.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8554zYJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/PwQ3SWV/unnamed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PwQ3SWV)
Breva 1100/1200 Bars
(https://i.ibb.co/Zfs5wXD/MOTOGUZZIBreva1200-Sport4-V-4702-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zfs5wXD)
For me, the 1220 S has far more forward lean compared to the Norge which was completely sit up neutral for me. Suspensions vary by quality of the components with the 1 Gen Norge and Breva being the weakest and in most need of improvement. The Gen 2 Norge 8V had some improvements, but I think the 1200 Sport is generally considered the 'best out of the box'.
Generally, a very good overall ride. Balanced, sweet, agile. Comfortable but not a slush sled, responsive but not razor sharp. They are great mile munchers, and eat the miles in comfort at high speeds.
I liked everything about my 8V Norge but the motor, and why I ended up with a 1200 Sport for my Long Distance rides. I much prefer the 4V motor over the 8V. YMMV
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The picture of the Breva bars are not the stock bars. Those are Heli-bars.
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Just to be clear, the Breva 1100 doesn't have a handlebar, it has the same individual risers as the Norge.
Only the Breva Sport 1200 had the bars. That was the ergo difference to which I was referring earlier.
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Only the Breva Sport 1200 had the bars. That was the ergo difference to which I was referring earlier.
The 1200 Sport original bars were also horrible. I replaced mine with Renthal Fatbar or
Aprilia Mana bars.
If anyone wants an original, I have three sets, each are available for a beer.
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I had a Breva 1100 and I now have a 1200 Sport. The B11 is noticeably slower with a softer suspension. With a big windshield it was a pretty good touring bike. I did some Iron Butt riding on one. The Sport is way faster and handles better. I'm with the group that says the 1200 Sport is one of Guzzi's finest.
Mike
(https://i.ibb.co/RP7hm27/driveway-30-900.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RP7hm27)
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Just to be clear, the Breva 1100 doesn't have a handlebar, it has the same individual risers as the Norge.
Only the Breva Sport 1200 had the bars. That was the ergo difference to which I was referring earlier.
Interesting. I've actually never seen a Breva 1100 only the 1200 sport and the baby Breva. Somehow I knew you'd be along to bring some point of clarification :-)
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Interesting. I've actually never seen a Breva 1100 only the 1200 sport and the baby Breva. Somehow I knew you'd be along to bring some point of clarification :-)
Well to be perfectly honest I was going to take issue with Travlr's "noticeably slower" and "way faster" comments but figured it was late and not worth it. Besides it's likely too subjective.
I kinda doubt those classifications from the numbers though.
I mean the motors are REALLY similar. I doubt the 100cc (is it even that if we look at actual displacement) difference means anything.
I know the gearing was very slightly different, but I THOUGHT I remembered the 1200 Sport was even taller than the B11 (not positive about that, it was too long ago and I'm not real motivated to check).
Dyno's are hard to come by but it looks like Todd at GT claims stock a 1200 Sport was around 71 hp.
https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/gt-modded-1200-sport-2v-dyno-run.5830/
and FBF put my Breva (with GT reflashed ECM) at 75 hp with about the exact same Torque as the stock B12 Sport dyno he posted.
So it makes me think the difference in feel might be suspension and ergos mostly, and not real "butt" dyno. Of course, who knows, one could be running poorly etc. It's not like butt dynos are particularly accurate.
I wonder if there is any significant difference in the cams/valve train?!? I kinda doubt it from the numbers, but without checking....
....so instead I went to sleep.
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Norge and Breva 1100 had the same bars and identical riding position.
the 1200 Sport (also called the Breva Sport 1200) had regular bar clamps with a terrible Hyde M-bar type handle bar that drooped at the ends. Most folks replaced that with an Aprilia Mana bar (if you want to keep stock bar ends) or any regular 7/8"/22mm riser bar (I use a ProTaper KX High bar on mine).
The 750 Breva is different entirely, more like a V7 Classic with breva-type styling. The 850 Breva was never imported to USA, its a short-stroke version of the 1100 Breva, and shares engine with the Bellagio, another bike that never came to the US.
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The 1200 Sport original bars were also horrible. I replaced mine with Renthal Fatbar or
Aprilia Mana bars.
If anyone wants an original, I have three sets, each are available for a beer.
sounds like a good deal... one set of OEM bars, for a can of Epic hop zombie !!
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The bars not being the same explains why in some pics the riders arms we’re straighter than others. That was what I was most curious about although now I’d like to know-more about the difference in gearing and why there’s so many old guys on here. I wasn’t going to say anything but since someone else brought it up???
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I’m calling BS as to the 1200 being “way faster “.
The factory claimed the 1200 had 9 more HP, and a smitten more torque.
I’ll give that it is faster, but not by much. And I suspect it handles better than a B1100, but the B11 still out handles any Tonti or small block I have ridden.
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Faster .... slower .... ?? Regardless, I hated to see Guzzi discontinue the entire line of CARC bikes. Granted, they may have been a bit heavy, but what a lovely family of machines .................. I'm referencing the pre-4 valve per cylinder bikes.
- B11
- S12
- Norge
- Griso
All powered by the last of the indestructible pushrod 2v per cylinder 90 degree v twins. With a 6 speed tranny smooth as glass.
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All powered by the last of the indestructible pushrod 2v per cylinder 90 degree v twins. With a 6 speed tranny smooth as glass.
Hmmm, someone better let the smallblock owners know they're riding time bombs then...
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I assumed the breva was identical to the Norge as far as ergonomics but looking at some pics of the breva it looks like the breva has a more upright body position. I thought a Norge was just a breva with extra Tupperware. Anybody ever ridden both to compare
This Norge v. B11 horse has been pretty well slaughtered and packaged for sale, but, naturally, I'll chime in anyway. :grin:
In answer to the OP's original question, I have ridden many miles on both. I have 82K on my (beloved) '07 Norge. My brother had a B11 that I rode lots, and, later, three (! :shocked:) 8v Norges, and I rode all three. I have also ridden an S12, but only for a few miles. My Norge has S12 forks.
Actually, the OP's observation that "a Norge was just a breva with extra Tupperware" is -- at least WRT firstgen Norges -- as right as one needs to be.
In fact, I prefer the B11 which, when outfitted with w/s and panniers, is, obviously IMO, superior to the firstgen Norges if for no other reason than the maddening early Norge tupperware. Aside from its propensity to fail at attachment points and elsewhere, that plastic cladding is a PITA to remove for maintenance and repair. :angry:
[NOTE: I did learn recently (to my amazement) from N.J. Nick that one can remove much of the "upper lowers" in one fell swoop instead of undoing the bazillion unreachable fasteners buried inside; thanks, Nick. Oh, when are you going to post pix of your new V7OS in the Abruzzi? :azn:]
The 8v Norge plastic is more robust and, as kev says about Norge tupperware over the model range, it was designed, in part, to protect the rider from engine heat, a not insignificant issue on CARC's. I wear ATGATT and often leather pants -- and ride too fast anyway :rolleyes: -- so I have never found engine heat an especially bothersome problem. I even removed the "lower lowers" that help dispel the heat from the headers without appreciably increasing heat on me. I did that because those broke fast at mounts and I thought it made it look better, too. YMMV.
The 8v is a different story WRT power, but I am happy (enough) with my Norge, even when two-up as we will be next week. Thankfully, my Perfect Pillion & Polish Princess Kathi is a slip of a thing, tho she does tend to bring her closet, take the to side bags and tail trunk, and smilingly leaves me with everything I can carry in the tankbag! :kiss:
If one were writing on a blank slate, the S12 would, IMO, be the best of all worlds as a sport-tourer ... well unless an 8v Norge in Espresso & Grappa livery. :bow:
Bill
P.S. Oops. Forgot to comment, thus this edit, about the OP's "now I’d like to know ... why there’s so many old guys on here?" But, while going through the amending process, I forgot what I was going to say, so I suppose I just answered his question, at least WRT me. :wink:
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Hmmm, someone better let the smallblock owners know they're riding time bombs then...
Kev, let me amend my previous post.
All powered by the last of the indestructible Big Block pushrod 2v per cylinder 90 degree v twins. With a 6 speed tranny smooth as glass.
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Kev, let me amend my previous post.
All powered by the last of the indestructible Big Block pushrod 2v per cylinder 90 degree v twins. With a 6 speed tranny smooth as glass.
Ha ha, fair enough. I'm just giving you guff and don't doubt you're right (with that qualification). :boozing:
Back to the OP
It's funny, I never EVER even considered a Norge because I've always shied away from bodywork that hides the MOTOR of a MOTORcycle.
And yeah the Breva was a GREAT bike in a lot of ways. Like I think all the CARCs were, it was an absolute freight train on the highway, but danced in the curves.
I understand the feeling that it was bulletproof.... I even think that motor and chassis would both live on while the world crumbled around them.
But like my Jackal before it, the ancillary things let me down. Not nearly to the level of my poor Jackal (that's a whole other story, might be partially Aprilia's fault, and partially the hard life it lived before me). But the Breva still had it's share of "Oh for F's Sake" moments (failing dash, failing clutch, I mean not little things.... those are costly and/or involved fixes).
And I don't know why it was so friggin hot. ATTGAT wouldn't help me. The heat made for crotch swamp... maybe I just sweat more than other people, but no other bike in my LIFE has ever given me a crotch swamp and just in temps literally like 80F....
In contrast my V7 gives me perfect airflow on the lower body and is comfortable well into the 90s.
Take away those issues and there is SOOOOOOOOOO much to like about the CARCs.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AM-JKLVPwabvfXE67YUrvy3EGRi2sCfrGi7kvc8nk3qcZ4LWis5ZObPnXlKmvTusJbTVRFE5IzYzh9ohJvBl-oPtczNTyy6ftNwJr_hNucj7EPvQI2E4T65WJNK338-PBAeYVtmxfW5WZ8UumYx2P-dJ5hzfkA=w1209-h903-no?authuser=0)
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Kev - I think a lot of the heat issue with the B11 was the location of the cat converter. On the S12, the cat was (I believe) located in the slip on muffler, so the heat was behind the rider.
Bob
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[NOTE: I did learn recently (to my amazement) from N.J. Nick that one can remove much of the "upper lowers" in one fell swoop instead of undoing the bazillion unreachable fasteners buried inside; thanks, Nick. :thumb: Tell me more!
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Kev - I think a lot of the heat issue with the B11 was the location of the cat converter. On the S12, the cat was (I believe) located in the slip on muffler, so the heat was behind the rider.
Bob
Respectfully, NOPE.
I replaced the crossover (and yes it was the ONE CARC model at the time that placed the damn cat-con in the crossover) using a very nicely made Guzzitech Y-pipe that didn't have one. Almost no difference (maybe slight difference near my feet in hot weather, but crotch swamp continued).
I also had the ECM reflashed by Guzzitech (one of the only options that was available at the time). Very nice performance, and fuel mileage increased in some conditions, dyno'd beautifully at FBF, but no change in heat.
I can't explain why the B12 wouldn't do it if the B11 did. I wonder if there were any other ergo or bodywork differences. But on my B11 the fuel tank/sponsoons effectively blocked air from reaching my lower body (like a fairing, and it was great for winter riding). It seemed that if anything, it was also capturing engine heat, or perhaps even channeling it, but I can't explain why that wouldn't also happen on the B12.
But I tried everything I could think of before I gave up and moved on to a smallblock.
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Kev, everything is relative, I guess. Maybe the 1200 Sport was warm, but coming from the world of the original BMW K100RS bikes, no other bikes before or since put out the heat like they did! "Please, please ....... change green before the thermostatically-controlled fan kicks on!!"
Bob
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Kev, everything is relative, I guess. Maybe the 1200 Sport was warm, but coming from the world of the original BMW K100RS bikes, no other bikes before or since put out the heat like they did! "Please, please ....... change green before the thermostatically-controlled fan kicks on!!"
Bob
Ha ha, I hear ya.
Look, it's entirely possible it's ME.... or something was weird about this bike that no-one could figure out. I dunno.
I owned an R1100RSa for many years (in many ways a similar half-fairing concept bike) that didn't have that effect on me in the summer.
I had access to the entire press fleet from BMW for years - so I spent extended time on things like RTs, K's including the KRS, KGT, etc. Nope, no problems like this.
I had a Buell ST3.... nope not an issue
Hell, it's not like my Harleys, or Jenn's Duc run cold in the summer... I mean there are times I can feel the heat.
But the crotch swamp doesn't/didn't commeth....except on the B11.
The B11 was the perfect storm of preventing airflow for me.
By comparison the Jackal or the V7s were/are night and day differences.
Hell even my RK is night and day better FOR ME.
And maybe someone who doesn't sweat so easily might not experience this.... that's probably what it comes down to.
As a kid, we're talking teenager, I would play hand-ball at the local courts with my buds all summer long. If I fell on the court and then got up again there would be a clear outline of my entire body in sweat on the ground. Would look like the aftermath of a murder scene with the tracing of the body.
It's probably just me, but there was a threshold of heat on this bike vs wind protection that just didn't work for me.
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That's it Kev, it was either you, that particular bike, or a combo. I still have my B1100 without a cat, and I didn't notice much difference in heat output after I took off the colostomy bag, I expected too, but didn't.
That said, the bike does put out substantial heat. When riding slowly I can feel the heat pouring across my chins, to the point of being quite uncomfortable! But under speed, it's either not noticeable, or greatly diminished. But the point is, the heat, for me, can only really be noticed on my chins, it doesn't find its way up to my upper leg or nether regions! My guess, is there was something slightly off with your bike, as I remember you speaking a good deal about how dam hot yours would get. <shrug>
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[NOTE: I did learn recently (to my amazement) from N.J. Nick that one can remove much of the "upper lowers" in one fell swoop instead of undoing the bazillion unreachable fasteners buried inside; thanks, Nick. :thumb: Tell me more!
Happy to do that as soon as kev subs a smaller pic of his (nice-looking) gray B11 so it doesn't flood the screen and run text into the margins. :laugh:
Seriously, will do in a separate thread when MY Chores here are done, hopefully, today. :thewife: :kiss: :laugh:
Bill
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That's it Kev, it was either you, that particular bike, or a combo. I still have my B1100 without a cat, and I didn't notice much difference in heat output after I took off the colostomy bag, I expected too, but didn't.
That said, the bike does put out substantial heat. When riding slowly I can feel the heat pouring across my chins, to the point of being quite uncomfortable! But under speed, it's either not noticeable, or greatly diminished. But the point is, the heat, for me, can only really be noticed on my chins, it doesn't find its way up to my upper leg or nether regions! My guess, is there was something slightly off with your bike, as I remember you speaking a good deal about how dam hot yours would get. <shrug>
:thumb:
Happy to do that as soon as kev subs a smaller pic of his (nice-looking) gray B11 so it doesn't flood the screen and run text into the margins. :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8YTXQgYaX8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8YTXQgYaX8)
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mafpnwKcrx1qzj4mzo2_250.gifv)
"Suffer Pope"
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Talking about heat in the Breva/Norge chassis, the 1200Sport has a Y pipe stock, and cat in the stock can, It is not hot at all, though as Kev mentions, the tank shape and 'wings' limits airflow to the 'nethers'. Not a big deal if you have longer legs and can angle them out.
My 8V Norge like the Breva had the cat in the collector, and held a lot of heat near your feet and under the rider. I swapped the cat out for an Agostini Y pipe and it was an immediate improvement. The Norge also had scoops on the mid/lower fairing that directed air from the cyls down. They made a big difference.
Hottest bike I ever owned was a 2005 FJR. Blistered my shins a couple times until I made some major modifications and blocking on the fairing lowers. For whatever reason, the MGX 21 also put out a ton of heat, very unpleasant. The air would shoot out of the slots on the injector/intake runner covers like a jet. I put heat shield tape over the the slots (yes the back side) to stop the blowtorch effect.
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The Norge is heavier than the Sport by about 12kg, Breva by 9kg, seat height are all the same, supposedly 92hp for the sport, 87hp for the Breva and 88hp for the Norge. Sport and Norge have 23 litre tanks and Breva 24ltr. Been looking to buy a new bike so I had all this written down. I have ridden the Breva 750 and 850 but not the Sport or 1100 Breva. The Breva 850 feels more like an 1100 bike, smooth and hops along quite nicely compared to the 750.
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My Audace is basically the same bike minus the plastic. I haven't noticed that problem. I do get some heat at times, mostly slow speeds. I will have to look into that.
kk
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Having ridden a 1200 Sport since 2013, I think the absence of the weight of the large front fairing and having the shorter handlebars, which places your weight slightly forward on the naked 1200 Sport, makes it much more maneuverable at slower speeds and in the twisties than the Norge.
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:thumb: +1. I like the 1200 Sport for my type of riding. I didn't like the locked in feeling of the Norge seat.
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I can’t say enough good things about my 1200 Sport. I bought it new from Moto International 96,000 miles ago. A very well-balanced bike.
Saturday, I bought an’08 Norge from a local guy in Vancouver WA. 22,000 miles, well cared for, well maintained, nicely accessorized.
I think the Sport is going to be better for day to day living and the Norge is going to be better for the ‘Crossing Time Zones’trips. Plus cooler Spring and Fall trips. The Norge is definitely better above 80mph.
I do think the Norge packaging makes niggling and fiddling less entertaining, more frustrating. The buttons for the information suite are more complicated for the Norge, but I am getting better at it.
Bill Lovelady IS
Eskimo Spy
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All right Bill! Time to inaugurate it!! You will love it I guarantee it!
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My friend had the Breva 1100 and let me ride it a couple of times. I loved it. I bought the Norge because I wanted a fairing and hard luggage. This was 11 years ago. I have not looked back at all.
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Avoid the Red 2V Norge 1200 at all costs! I need the ones that are left for future parts bikes :grin: