Author Topic: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox  (Read 404 times)

Offline guido1100

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Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« on: May 01, 2021, 03:39:19 AM »
Hi, from Italy!!

I' have made a special elettronics pcb for tuning NTC Sensor in My Griso and My Stelvio... (ATS05). The idea is use a microcontroller for read orginal NTC air sensor and control a digital potentiometer to send the ecu a programmable offset . With bluethoot (HC05) module wil be possible change this offset with the smartphone. :evil:




Let me know what do you think..
https://arduntc.blogspot.com/2021/04/a.html


Offline John Warner

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Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2021, 04:58:14 AM »
Is this to 'trick' the ECU into seeing a different Air Temp, so it richens the mixture?

If so, why?
We can remap our CARC Engines so easily and cheaply, why risk long-term Engine damage by making such crude mixture adjustments?

If not, what exactly will it do, that a remap can't?
Doc out . . .
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Offline guido1100

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2021, 06:42:19 AM »
This is a simple enrichment of the mixture (5-6%) without risk for the engine. Reamp is the best solution , but in Italy is not easy and economy.

For remap on dyno we cant spend 400-500 Euro --> 500-600$

This solution is an economic step , for who has  an sport air filter or exhaust whitout kat and/or dbkiller.


Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2021, 07:18:41 AM »
Okay.

Have you not heard of Guzzi Diag? Or Mark, (Beetle) and the maps he has developed to load directly into the ECU? The Guzzi Diag software is free although a donation is customary. The cables you need are available for little money, and the cost of a Beetle map transforms most modern Guzzi's without an added box meant to trick the ECU. Mark has been known to work with individuals to fine tune the fuel delivery across the RPM range. His various maps are designed for stock as well as mods. No dyno needed.

To simply add fuel across the RPM range creates inaccuracies in other places on the curve. The fuel delivery from the factory is lean in places but not in others. To add 5 or 6% across the range will make it too rich in places.

I commend you for developing a solution, but an inexpensive and well tested solution does exist. No spoofing box needed.

John Henry

     
A wide, unfettered road ahead,
and the flying motor singing.
Samuel C. Lancaster 1921

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2021, 07:18:41 AM »

Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2021, 07:43:55 AM »
This is a simple enrichment of the mixture (5-6%) without risk for the engine. Reamp is the best solution , but in Italy is not easy and economy.

For remap on dyno we cant spend 400-500 Euro --> 500-600$

This solution is an economic step , for who has  an sport air filter or exhaust whitout kat and/or dbkiller.

Remap with Guzzi Diag reader and writer is free.

Any time spent on the dyno, is money spend with a free remap, or money spent with your gadget.

Then in the end, you tweak the temp sensor, it tweaks the mixture, then the Lambda sensor corrects it and puts it right back where it should be. It is a waste isn't it? So you are just going to run rich for a few minutes at startup, then go back to normal once the lambda sensor is hot. And running rich during engine startup just destroys the motor.

What?

Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline guido1100

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2021, 09:32:44 AM »
The Lambda signal is used by the ECU only in the so-called "closed loop" speeds, ie when the engine runs at a constant partialized speed, or at idle speed and surroundings. In the other driving conditions it is ignored to allow the enrichments necessary for the generation of torque and acceleration. This is the big limitation compared to what you get just with the modification of the IAT sensor, which is always active and effective even in transients (open loop), i.e. where you really need petrol when driving in the real world. The Lambda modification will give only an enrichment on the base injection and not on the others.

https://secure.lambdapower.co.uk/TechNotes/Tech-3.asp
« Last Edit: May 01, 2021, 09:34:23 AM by guido1100 »

oldbike54

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2021, 10:01:21 AM »
The Lambda signal is used by the ECU only in the so-called "closed loop" speeds, ie when the engine runs at a constant partialized speed, or at idle speed and surroundings. In the other driving conditions it is ignored to allow the enrichments necessary for the generation of torque and acceleration. This is the big limitation compared to what you get just with the modification of the IAT sensor, which is always active and effective even in transients (open loop), i.e. where you really need petrol when driving in the real world. The Lambda modification will give only an enrichment on the base injection and not on the others.

https://secure.lambdapower.co.uk/TechNotes/Tech-3.asp

 Guido , here is what you are up against here , a beetle map is $100.00 US , and corrects the fueling across the entire RPM range of the engine , and beetle works with his customers to perfect his maps . His maps are the same price in Italy as they would be in America , Australia , Italy , or anywhere else . You don't need a Dyno , all you need is Guzzidiag and the cables from Lonelec , Guzzidiag is still free , the cables are like $24.00 US .

 See the problem , the fueling issue has already been solved , the beetlemap is proven , he has thousands of satisfied customers .

 Dusty

Offline GuzziOrDeath

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2021, 07:19:33 PM »
The Lambda signal is used by the ECU only in the so-called "closed loop" speeds, ie when the engine runs at a constant partialized speed, or at idle speed and surroundings. In the other driving conditions it is ignored to allow the enrichments necessary for the generation of torque and acceleration. This is the big limitation compared to what you get just with the modification of the IAT sensor, which is always active and effective even in transients (open loop), i.e. where you really need petrol when driving in the real world. The Lambda modification will give only an enrichment on the base injection and not on the others.

https://secure.lambdapower.co.uk/TechNotes/Tech-3.asp



That article is incorrect as far as how Marelli/Guzzi motorcycle closed/open loop modes operate. If you're going to invoke lambda theory, at least get it right.

Finebau, et al, have been making these gizmos for some time.



Offline guido1100

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2021, 11:41:29 AM »
Ok thanks all , i have made this only for hobby..

My Griso is fully remaped from Agostini in Mandello....

In different Forum in italy asked me to try this and i'have made. This is a "warkoround" for also no guzzi motorcycle .. my father have a Benelli Imperiale and for the moment there is not solution  alternative or similar GuzziDiag Software.

@GuzziOrDeath  ..I am sure speaking with technicians and mechanics, however that Magneti Marelli injection in the warm-up phase, in deceleration, in full acceleration, above a certain speed, works in open loop.

Offline GuzziOrDeath

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2021, 06:04:47 PM »
@GuzziOrDeath  ..I am sure speaking with technicians and mechanics, however that Magneti Marelli injection in the warm-up phase, in deceleration, in full acceleration, above a certain speed, works in open loop.


Closed loop only operates below ~5000 RPM, and above 55 degrees engine temperature and ~17 degrees intake temperature At all other times, it is open loop. Adding 6% more fuel in open loop? No thanks. What if you set the device so that closed loop never activated? It would over-fuel when the engine is hot and potentially damage the engine.


BTW, Warm Up phase only lasts for the initial 2000 RPM.

Alientech have a solution for the Delphi MT05 in the Benelli Imperiale.



Online pauldaytona

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2021, 12:54:35 PM »
The Marelli learns from the past, it has a counter about how much is added or taken away from fuel. So when you add fuell, with making it to cold for the engine, the lambda will see that and note it. Next it starts taking fuel away because it knows it is to rich. A number of the carc stock maps are in open loop way to rich, I took away a lot of fuel in the higher revs, and only after doing wideband lambda testdrives.
 If you are sure to only want to add fuel, it's pretty easy, load the fuel map in Tunerpro, select it, and multiply with 1.06 for 6% extra fuel. Reading map, editing and writing back is done within half an hour. 0$

But I like that you put so much thought in it. Do you know the Periscope from Giulio Buccini? Another Arduino project.
 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 02:38:18 PM by pauldaytona »
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Offline John Warner

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Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2021, 01:38:24 PM »
Finebau, et al, have been making these gizmos for some time.
Maybe so, but we Fuel Injected Guzzi owners are lucky in that we don't need them.

I can see how owners of other makes might be tempted, when getting their Bikes remapped costs several hundred /$$$/, every time they want it done.
We on the other hand, can do it for next to nothing, as often as we like.
Plus with GuzziDiag, we can do all the regular Servicing functions, fault code checks and clearances, etc, instead of throwing money at dealers all the time.

I guess until you've tried a Bike running a well-developed Map, you'll just never understand.
Those of us that have, will just keep on enjoying the improved performance and Fuel economy, with huge stupid grins on our faces . . .  :grin:


Doc out . . .
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Offline guido1100

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2021, 09:57:37 AM »
The Marelli learns from the past, it has a counter about how much is added or taken away from fuel. So when you add fuell, with making it to cold for the engine, the lambda will see that and note it. Next it starts taking fuel away because it knows it is to rich. A number of the carc stock maps are in open loop way to rich, I took away a lot of fuel in the higher revs, and only after doing wideband lambda testdrives.
 If you are sure to only want to add fuel, it's pretty easy, load the fuel map in Tunerpro, select it, and multiply with 1.06 for 6% extra fuel. Reading map, editing and writing back is done within half an hour. 0$

But I like that you put so much thought in it. Do you know the Periscope from Giulio Buccini? Another Arduino project.

Thank you Paul for your answer... Yes i know Giulio he call me for this project because he was interested. I'm testing on my motorcycle with good results (not big improvment) but a best fruibility. From Tuner pro whithout modify the fuel table i can disable the lambda. In this mode ecu don't taking away fuel...Correct?

p.s Thank you for the big support and work with GuzziDiag and tools  :thumb:

In several WebSite sell similar product but with less function:
https://jetprimeshop.it/it/memjet/316-centralina-aggiuntiva-memjet-evo-per-moto-guzzi-griso-8v-mj-001.html
https://www.dimsport.it/it/lista-applicazioni/rapidbike/bike/moto-guzzi/breva-1100/05-08/details/
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 09:59:31 AM by guido1100 »

Offline guido1100

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Re: Tuning NTC Sensor AirBox
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2021, 10:12:38 AM »
Maybe so, but we Fuel Injected Guzzi owners are lucky in that we don't need them.

I can see how owners of other makes might be tempted, when getting their Bikes remapped costs several hundred /$$$/, every time they want it done.
We on the other hand, can do it for next to nothing, as often as we like.
Plus with GuzziDiag, we can do all the regular Servicing functions, fault code checks and clearances, etc, instead of throwing money at dealers all the time.

I guess until you've tried a Bike running a well-developed Map, you'll just never understand.
Those of us that have, will just keep on enjoying the improved performance and Fuel economy, with huge stupid grins on our faces . . .  :grin:

Exactly we are lucky , but for the other brand is not easy. This type of eletronics is completly open to other end not only Guzzi. This is sure not the best solution but an improvment for who can't/ won't remap..


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