Author Topic: HD doens't want electric motorcycles  (Read 3037 times)

Offline bad Chad

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HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« on: May 11, 2021, 11:28:14 AM »
HD is dropping the Livewire, (no wonder they didn't have one for demo last friday in their demo truck, they said this ride was only for IC bikes  :rolleyes:, it was the entire reason I went), they are going to sell them under the Livewire brand, apparently in their own stand alone stores.   Sounds like they are on the way to Buell 2.0
https://www.motorcycledaily.com/2021/05/harley-davidson-creates-separate-brand-for-electric-motorcycles-livewire/
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Offline Seventy One

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2021, 12:20:52 PM »
I don't see the connection to Buell. They simply killed off Buell in 2010. They never set up different dealerships for them.

oldbike54

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2021, 12:25:03 PM »
 A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .

 Dusty

Offline JJ

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 12:41:12 PM »
Separate brand or not...I don't see them selling a lot of LiveWire electric motorcycles, in general... :rolleyes: :shocked:
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2021, 12:41:12 PM »

oldbike54

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 12:44:47 PM »
Separate brand or not...I don't see them selling a lot of LiveWire electric motorcycles, in general... :rolleyes: :shocked:

 The resistance is very great .

 Dusty

Offline elvisboy77

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2021, 12:58:17 PM »
Who wouldn't want a $30,000 electric scooter?
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2021, 01:29:52 PM »
Couldn't spark any interest? How are they gonna generate revenue?  :grin:



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Offline Alfetta

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2021, 02:20:39 PM »
Aermacchi, Buell, Alta, and probably more ??

HD is "crushing it"
NO, It's not pronounced "moder goosy"

Offline bad Chad

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2021, 02:23:08 PM »
Donít forget MV.
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Offline willowstreetguzziguy

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2021, 02:41:55 PM »
Bla, bla, bla................ .
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2021, 03:06:16 PM »
I don't see the connection to Buell. They simply killed off Buell in 2010. They never set up different dealerships for them.

They treated Buell like a red headed step child, until they were finally able to kill it off, I see something similar in the future for Livewire.
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Offline Seventy One

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2021, 03:24:18 PM »
They treated Buell like a red headed step child, until they were finally able to kill it off, I see something similar in the future for Livewire.

Looks like they are taking steps to prevent that.

Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2021, 03:34:18 PM »
Whoíd a thought a $30,000 electric novelty would not be the great savior. I hope almost every battery powered vehicles get push aside.

As for Buell vs Livewire I too fail to see the comparison. Seems like two totally different things.
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oldbike54

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2021, 03:52:29 PM »
 I really don't understand the desire to short circuit the future , IC engines have only been around in common use for a bit over 100 years , it isn't like anyone is trying to replace something the folks in 1880 considered useful , or the folks in 2080 will think necessary .

 Dusty

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2021, 04:04:36 PM »
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .

 Dusty
Everyone is getting amped up over this, the IC engine is sick and itís terminal. In the future, the bright sparks will go electric or take the bus.
No need to be negative about the concept when the future is so positive, resistance is futile, there is massive potential in the concept.
If you conduct a survey, you might get a shock at how ready the public is for these. Initial reluctance is just one single phase in the love hate relationship that these things are at the centre of.
Once you throw the switch and take one ohm, you and the bike will become fused and youíll wonder why you didnít charge in and get one sooner...
I saw an electric trials bike that effortlessly volted over a huge bridge in Wheatstone near where I live.
A petrol bike would have fallen flat, charge on in an make enquiries.. hurry last days, stocks are limited...!
The potential difference is astonishing...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 04:08:51 PM by Huzo »

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2021, 04:14:52 PM »
I think it's a smart move and Livewire will do well once they knock about $10K off the current prices.

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« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 04:20:42 PM by AJ Huff »
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Online Huzo

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2021, 04:19:33 PM »
Separate brand or not...I don't see them selling a lot of LiveWire electric motorcycles, in general... :rolleyes: :shocked:
Hmmm...?
They said that about the V85.... :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed:

Offline Perazzimx14

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2021, 04:28:16 PM »
I really don't understand the desire to short circuit the future , IC engines have only been around in common use for a bit over 100 years , it isn't like anyone is trying to replace something the folks in 1880 considered useful , or the folks in 2080 will think necessary .

 Dusty

Ah yes the electric motor and battery are amazing new tech.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

Offline cliffrod

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2021, 04:39:19 PM »
Keep plugging away, Dusty...  I just don't like the insinuation that my 1881 Putnam metal lathe is not a high tech piece of machinery.

One very serious question that I've yet to see addressed in any IC/EV threads..

Everybody is emptying gas pumps today around here in SC with the current cyberterrorist hack of the Colonial pipeline.  But there is apparently less trouble getting diesel fuel at many stations, which is specifically why we have both a gas truck and a plain, old fashioned, zero electronics diesel truck that typically spends more time parked than driven.  If EV becomes the standard and gas/diesel IC is actively phased out, what might the alternate,, fuel vehicle be if electric grid is compromised by regular blackout, storms, terrorists, ??   Hydrogen cell, ?  Or will it be EV or sneakers pounding sand?

And I'm still waiting to see how people are going to recharge/exchange EV vehicles in a manner & schedule comparable to gas.  People are not happy having to wait 20-30 min or more in line to get gas today when they can get it.  They're grumbling on tv now, plenty of anxiety & some short tempers.   Zero patience.  Making a slow turnaround the norm doesn't make sense. 

I'm having a hard time envisioning a standardized battery swapping scenario - warehousing needs of both fresh and dead batteries, exchange equipment whether fully automated with crazy maintenance & upkeep or consumer operated by many who cannot even check their own oil.   An automated car wash-type system might work but will still be a huge bottleneck compared to large gas stations capable of 20 vehicle or more being refueled simultaneously.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 04:42:15 PM by cliffrod »
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oldbike54

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2021, 04:41:41 PM »
Ah yes the electric motor and battery are amazing new tech.

 Actually the latest stuff is , the battery powered lawn equipment I have transitioned to is so superior to the IC tools they have replaced there is literally no comparison . IC engines are going the way of the dinosaur , not overnight , but more rapidly than you might think . Things change , you can't stop that from happening .

 Dusty

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2021, 04:51:52 PM »
I'm perplexed at how many comments negative I read ( :boozing:) about H-D trying the electric market I read all over the place.  Seems like a ton of folks have a real wish to see them fall flat on their face-short out, if you will.
Sure, the first one was $$$$$.  I've also read several knowledgeable  reports saying it was the much better execution over the Zero-granted, not concerning price.  But the UK reviewers, who actually ride the things for months and miles stated that even with the premium they'd buy the LiveWire.
Now, like a lot of riders, I don't need someone telling me what to like
or buy, but these are accomplished testers and their reports do carry some real credibility.

Why NOT create a separate division?  Look at the crap spewed about the Pan American and the expert opinions that no one will go to a H-D dealer to buy one for whatever reason?  The Buell references?  What should they do?  What they have always done?  Is that crap?  Something different?  Is that crap?

I have no idea, and don't want to sound like I'm calling out-I'm not-but I'm curious to see how it all turns out.  And cudos to the new guy for having the moxie to try.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 04:53:49 PM by kingoffleece »
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oldbike54

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2021, 04:52:26 PM »
Keep plugging away, Dusty...  I just don't like the insinuation that my 1881 Putnam metal lathe is not a high tech piece of machinery.

One very serious question that I've yet to see addressed in any IC/EV threads..

Everybody is emptying gas pumps today around here in SC with the current cyberterrorist hack of the Colonial pipeline.  But there is apparently less trouble getting diesel fuel at many stations, which is specifically why we have both a gas truck and a plain, old fashioned, zero electronics diesel truck that typically spends more time parked than driven.  If EV becomes the standard and gas/diesel IC is actively phased out, what might the alternate,, fuel vehicle be if electric grid is compromised by regular blackout, storms, terrorists, ??   Hydrogen cell, ?  Or will it be EV or sneakers pounding sand?

And I'm still waiting to see how people are going to recharge/exchange EV vehicles in a manner & schedule comparable to gas.  People are not happy having to wait 20-30 min or more in line to get gas today when they can get it.  They're grumbling on tv now, plenty of anxiety & some short tempers.   Zero patience.  Making a slow turnaround the norm doesn't make sense. 

I'm having a hard time envisioning a standardized battery swapping scenario - warehousing needs of both fresh and dead batteries, exchange equipment whether fully automated with crazy maintenance & upkeep or consumer operated by many who cannot even check their own oil.   An automated car wash-type system might work but will still be a huge bottleneck compared to large gas stations capable of 20 vehicle or more being refueled simultaneously.

 In 1880 there was no infrastructure to support IC powered vehicles , we built that system in stages . No idea why this is so hard to understand , it's like some people think the IC engine has always been around , how can we possibly live sans IC engines ? Reality is , they represent a blip in time , most of our great  great grandparents never drove a car powered by an IC engine , hell , most probably thought cars would never become common . Technology moves us to new things , sometimes good , sometimes not , but as a whole we almost never go backwards . Even those of us who are still riding 1972 loop frame models would look just like someone riding a 2021 V9 to someone from 1880 .



 Dusty
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 04:54:42 PM by oldbike54 »

Offline cliffrod

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2021, 05:30:16 PM »
In 1880 there was no infrastructure to support IC powered vehicles , we built that system in stages . No idea why this is so hard to understand , it's like some people think the IC engine has always been around , how can we possibly live sans IC engines ? Reality is , they represent a blip in time , most of our great  great grandparents never drove a car powered by an IC engine , hell , most probably thought cars would never become common . Technology moves us to new things , sometimes good , sometimes not , but as a whole we almost never go backwards . Even those of us who are still riding 1972 loop frame models would look just like someone riding a 2021 V9 to someone from 1880 .



 Dusty

im not saying it can't, won't or shouldn't happen.  I just want to see how it's done.  Comparing technological advances- both scope and pace- of circa 1880 (no rules, largely ignorant/naive public & sloooow rollout) to circa 2020 (highly regulated, total market availability/saturation expected immediately) is more apples & oranges than like vs like.

Some basic platforms, classes and specifications/dimensions of machines have been demonstrated to be difficult to improve.  Just because these can be embellished doesn't improve the platform.  The EV Achilles heel imho is the ever changing & tweaking that will likely accompany the movement, making too many machines quickly obsolete as a business model.   People miss the point that (for example)  85% durability/efficiency/dependability means a machine that can last for a long time while effectively managing the 15% deficit vs discarding the entire machine for a 1% improvement and an entirely new 14% deficit.  Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.

An EV motorcycle  with a simple battery swap capacity- like swapping the gas tank or a saddlebag or two- makes lots of sense to me.  It seems like a far more viable application than a car if you remove inclement weather from the equation (which you can't in most situations) If it is as infinitely usable and repairable  as an old Vtwin HD, it makes even more sense.  But it probably won't be because people will expect new extra doodads to prove their new machine is "better" than last year's model.  Current microchip shortages aside, it will be no surprise to see EVs endlessly tweaked & quickly made as obsolete as the bazillion of 12v and 14v cordless tools out there.

I still have doubts that solar and wind are going to be enough to satisfy the ignorant masses. And they won't consume less to make it work.  That means coal and nuclear to fill the gap for the foreseeable future.  After the power grid is enhanced..

One of the old Master Sculptors in VT would see some ambitious "artist" drawing all over a piece of granite, talking about what they were going to do and how they were going to do it.  He would just say "That pencil doesn't cut very well, does it?"   Talk about "what if" doesn't do much for me. I want to see it happen.  Not saying it can't or won't be done.  Just do it.  Until then, it's just talk.
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Offline danomar

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2021, 05:33:11 PM »
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .

Thanks for that chuckle, sir!

Offline Tusayan

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2021, 05:34:56 PM »
I still have doubts that solar and wind are going to be enough to satisfy the ignorant masses. And they won't consume less to make it work.  That means coal and nuclear to fill the gap for the foreseeable future.  After the power grid is enhanced..

Natural gas is likely to fill the gap because it will be the best compromise between dogma and reality.  Solar and wind would have to increase many times over.   


Offline bad Chad

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2021, 05:48:06 PM »
Renewable energys sources, ie wind, solar, Geo thermal, bio-mass, make up 1/5th of total energy production, exceding coal, and equalling nuclear.  The rate of renewable growth is increasing every year. 
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2021, 05:56:13 PM »
A battery of experts has determined this is shocking news and that any attorney with some juice should be able to short circuit this .

 Dusty

Boom,Boom. You're hear all week, right? :)

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Offline Trialsman

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2021, 06:01:04 PM »
As an owner of three Alta electric motorcycles, I cannot wish HD any good fortune for their dealings with Alta.  I love the performance of the Alta by the way, and have not even started my KTM FreeRide IC bike since I bought the first electric.
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Offline Murray

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2021, 06:04:28 PM »
I don't see the connection to Buell. They simply killed off Buell in 2010. They never set up different dealerships for them.

I think the op is referring to the management style, HD has shown over and over again (MV Augusta) their management culture is incapable to cope with change.

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2021, 06:06:51 PM »
You guys resisting EV has become comical, shaking your little T-Rex fists at the oncoming EV glacier.

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