Author Topic: HD doens't want electric motorcycles  (Read 2864 times)

Offline lucky phil

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2021, 06:13:21 PM »
In 1880 there was no infrastructure to support IC powered vehicles , we built that system in stages . No idea why this is so hard to understand , it's like some people think the IC engine has always been around , how can we possibly live sans IC engines ? Reality is , they represent a blip in time , most of our great  great grandparents never drove a car powered by an IC engine , hell , most probably thought cars would never become common . Technology moves us to new things , sometimes good , sometimes not , but as a whole we almost never go backwards . Even those of us who are still riding 1972 loop frame models would look just like someone riding a 2021 V9 to someone from 1880 .

 Dusty

Understand the thrust of your argument here but a few extra dimensions. The biggest limiting factor with electric vehicles is the battery technology, a battery simply cannot compete with the energy density of gasoline, it's around 1/100th that of gasoline. The battery has been around now for 221 years (invented practically in 1800) so it's had well over 200 years of development to date and is still a million miles short of the energy density of gasoline. Of course the development isn't linier for all sorts of reasons so we won't go down that path but the example of the ICE in 1880 has a few problems as well due to the fact that the ICE was competing against a horse basically as a mode of transport for the individual and therefor the future potential was blindingly obvious which drove the development at a high rate. Not quite the same dynamic for the development trajectory of the battery.
Truth is I'm all for electric modes of transport I just don't see them as something that will replace the ICE anytime in the foreseeable future. I believe we will end up with a mix of battery powered vehicles that provide utility in their space and the ICE the same. A mixed outcome.     

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Offline cliffrod

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2021, 06:18:59 PM »
Too many people never look at the bigger picture..

The biggest problem with consumers in general is consumption.  It is unavoidable if people are left to their own means.  When an individual (or society)  thinks they're doing good, they have been socially conditioned to reward themselves.  So they take/have/enjoy a little more.  If there were no politics or such involved (which isn't the case)   EV would be somewhat irrelevant if people lived within a tighter set of parameters including driving less.  Once EVs become the new great solution, people will consume to the hilt like a gas expands to fill a closed vessel. Then there will have to be another new solution. 

People are the both the problem and the solution- not the machines or technology they employ to externalize the blame & responsibility...    EVs are just another way to pretend to do the right thing instead of actually making real sacrifices to live smaller and consume less.   

As an easy example-  How many people would step up and turn off their A/C at home and work for the rest of their lives in order to use the saved electricity to charge their EV? 
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2021, 06:24:38 PM »
If I had to do an urban work commute I would be on an electric car and/or bike like flies on honey. Everything makes sense about it. Until range and recharge get quicker (which may come fairly soon) I still want IC for traveling. But when all becomes practical I would have electric vehicles and the T-3 to take out on nice days for glorious joy rides listening to that beautiful engine music. Make believing I am Joe Leno.
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« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 08:05:16 PM by Gliderjohn »
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2021, 06:27:25 PM »
Too many people never look at the bigger picture..

The biggest problem with consumers in general is consumption. 

Nobody is going to consume less.  The solution is less people.

Plus the best technology to allow their individual consumption to be as high as possible within whatever constraints apply.

We are not monks, and will not be in the future.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 06:32:34 PM by Tusayan »

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2021, 06:27:25 PM »

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2021, 06:51:16 PM »
You guys resisting EV has become comical, shaking your little T-Rex fists at the oncoming EV glacier.

-AJ

I've worked in the field since 1995, directly in R&D of electric vehicle propulsion since 2012, including having engineering responsibility for development budgets in the range of tens of millions of dollars.  Wanting a certain dogma to come true doesn't mean its going to  :wink:

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2021, 06:55:01 PM »
Understand the thrust of your argument here but a few extra dimensions. The biggest limiting factor with electric vehicles is the battery technology, a battery simply cannot compete with the energy density of gasoline, it's around 1/100th that of gasoline. The battery has been around now for 221 years (invented practically in 1800) so it's had well over 200 years of development to date and is still a million miles short of the energy density of gasoline. Of course the development isn't linier for all sorts of reasons so we won't go down that path but the example of the ICE in 1880 has a few problems as well due to the fact that the ICE was competing against a horse basically as a mode of transport for the individual and therefor the future potential was blindingly obvious which drove the development at a high rate. Not quite the same dynamic for the development trajectory of the battery.
Truth is I'm all for electric modes of transport I just don't see them as something that will replace the ICE anytime in the foreseeable future. I believe we will end up with a mix of battery powered vehicles that provide utility in their space and the ICE the same. A mixed outcome.     

Ciao

Batteries are far predate 1800 AD. Bagdad battery predates Christ.


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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2021, 07:01:04 PM »
Batteries are far predate 1800 AD. Bagdad battery predates Christ.

 No evidence exists that the Baghdad battery was really a battery . What would they have been powering with electricity ?

 Dusty

Offline elvisboy77

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2021, 07:07:10 PM »
Ah yes the electric motor and battery are amazing new tech.

LOL!  You forgot to drink the Kool Aid!
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Offline elvisboy77

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2021, 07:10:08 PM »
I've worked in the field since 1995, directly in R&D of electric vehicle propulsion since 2012, including having engineering responsibility for development budgets in the range of tens of millions of dollars.  Wanting a certain dogma to come true doesn't mean its going to  :wink:

Well said, I wish more people understood.  If I had a nickel for every EV "Google PhD" out there.....
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2021, 07:24:29 PM »


I am wishing I had closed the deal on the EV car I almost bought at the beginning of this year with the lines at the gas pumps and stations running out in the southeast. 

I would definitely own an electric motorcycle and enjoyed the Livewire test ride so much that if I were a rich man I would definitely own one and ride it every chance I could. 

When I ride around and see all the million dollar homes I know there are plenty of people out there that don't blink at $100,000 cars and $30,000 motorcycles. 

Harley is probably spinning off the electric division because those who would buy electric are afraid of the big bad bikers at the Harley Dealerships.  They want mocha lattes while they look at the electric offerings, no beer in the blue can. 
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 07:30:23 PM by oldbike54 »
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2021, 07:29:21 PM »
 All progress is hard , there is never some big leap forward , simply a series of incremental gains that add up eventually . With some of you guys in charge we would never have managed the moon shot.

 Here is what I can observe , battery powered hand tools are so much better now than what we were using in the trades 30 , 20 , 10 , even 2 years ago. The batteries are 1/3rd the size , more powerful , and last longer . Even the cheap cordless tools from HF are better than the best blue Makita from 1995, yes a different scale , but a good bit of the tech transfers . Nor making any predictions as to when , but sorry , expecting some giant leap in less than 10 years is silly , that doesn't mean it isn't happening .

 Dusty

Offline lucky phil

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 07:30:39 PM »
Batteries are far predate 1800 AD. Bagdad battery predates Christ.

You notice I said "practically" as in a practically workable battery.

Ciao
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2021, 07:31:22 PM »
 Look fellas , keep your political beliefs out of this , capeesh ?

 Dusty

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2021, 07:45:34 PM »

I am wishing I had closed the deal on the EV car I almost bought at the beginning of this year with the lines at the gas pumps and stations running out in the southeast. 

I would definitely own an electric motorcycle and enjoyed the Livewire test ride so much that if I were a rich man I would definitely own one and ride it every chance I could. 

When I ride around and see all the million dollar homes I know there are plenty of people out there that don't blink at $100,000 cars and $30,000 motorcycles. 

I wished I would bought plywood and 2 x 4's last year.

Harley is probably spinning off the electric division because those who would buy electric are afraid of the big bad bikers at the Harley Dealerships.  They want mocha lattes while they look at the electric offerings, no beer in the blue can.
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2021, 07:59:44 PM »
Think about it. If technology didn't progress, we'd all be having this internet conversation in the dark  :thumb:
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2021, 08:05:41 PM »
I don't understand the skepticism about converting to a new "fueling" infrastructure. Ford sold its first Model A in 1903. Until 1905 motorists bought gasoline in tins, at pharmacies. That year the Bowser pump came on the market. Hardware stores could buy barrels of gasoline, put them out on the curb and pump directly into the vehicle. The first real drive-in gas station didn't arrive until the end of 1913 -- ten years after Ford sold his first mass-produced car. At that point US carmakers were selling less than 500,000 cars a year. Tesla sold more cars in 2020 than the entire auto industry did in 1913. And the US had 100,000 public EV charging outlets in February, per the Dept of Energy. The changeover is happening orders of magnitude faster than the adoption of IC cars.

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Offline lucky phil

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2021, 08:08:27 PM »
Look fellas , keep your political beliefs out of this , capeesh ?

 Dusty

Not being combative her but "political beliefs"? Please give give me a heads up on this because I reviewed the posts on this page and can't find anything. Am I missing something?

Ciao
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2021, 08:08:48 PM »
I was talking to some motorcycle fans at our local shopping mall vintage motorcycle display a couple weeks back, one of them told me her brother in law just bought a brand new Livewire from one of the local HD dealerships for about 3/5ths the MSRP. With this news that HD is dropping the Livewire the blow out sale price makes sense.
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2021, 08:10:09 PM »
Not being combative her but "political beliefs"? Please give give me a heads up on this because I reviewed the posts on this page and can't find anything. Am I missing something?

Ciao

 Wonder why that is Phil ?

 Dusty

Offline lucky phil

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2021, 08:13:02 PM »
Wonder why that is Phil ?

 Dusty

Please PM me

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Offline sidecarnutz

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2021, 08:14:19 PM »
I can't help but think that Guzzi made their 1100 EV for some years and now it too is gone. Back to smaller more efficient IC motors again! ;-)
yeah, I might be addicted to brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.

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Offline Motormike

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2021, 08:54:20 PM »
The Live Wire may be the best bike Harley had ever made.  Have you looked at one? I mean really, in the flesh?  The suspension, the frame, the whole package is neat, compact, well engineered from front to back. It makes their V-twin bikes look like steam engines ( and I'm no electric fan-boy).  Everybody I know that has ridden one (including me) says the same thing...if it was $15,000 instead of $29,000, they'd buy one.  It is (was?) that good.   

Offline chuck peterson

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2021, 09:06:51 PM »
Harley Accountin is probably trying to isolate the carnage to one arm...that way itíll cut off cleanly

As per the gas shortage, what can i say but,..

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2021, 10:19:12 PM »
Tesla must be doing something right, they sold 200,561 cars last year
Just this morning I was looking over their new charging station, 12 just like this
EPSON-MFP-image" border="0
I imagine it will have quite an effect on adjacent restaurants and businesses.
I don't think I will ever buy an EV unless its an electric wheel chair, lol
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 10:25:55 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2021, 11:43:49 PM »
I'd like to demo one, and I like the idea. I worry the lifespan of the battery, and about it's capability to fully charge over time. Unlike an EV car, an electric motorcycle is not going to be basic transportation for most, it's a toy.  What's it going to cost to replace the batteries? Do you just throw the bike away at that point? My 52 year old guzzi runs like a top.
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2021, 12:39:18 AM »
I'd like to demo one, and I like the idea. I worry the lifespan of the battery, and about it's capability to fully charge over time. Unlike an EV car, an electric motorcycle is not going to be basic transportation for most, it's a toy.  What's it going to cost to replace the batteries? Do you just throw the bike away at that point? My 52 year old guzzi runs like a top.
One of the major issues with electric car batteries is the cooling system for the battery pack. Nissan Leafs for example dont use a cooling system and the life of the battery is majorly affected by things like the climate the car is driven and parked in. Is the car parked in a relatively cool garage or in the sun in the street. It's apparently a big issue when purchasing a second hand one as the battery degradation due to simple environmental operating conditions can make such a difference to battery life that even a low mileage/age one can ultimately be uneconomical to purchase due to battery degradation and the required battery replacement cost. Your Leaf that doesn't have an enormous range anyway all of a sudden has 20% less in 2 years because of the climate its operated in and parked. Expensive cars like the Tesla have quite sophisticated battery cooling systems and don't seem to be significantly affected. I'm not sure what most motorcycles use in this regards but as I said the cooling of the batteries is a significant issue with regards to capacity degradation and ultimately life span.

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« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 12:40:29 AM by lucky phil »
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Offline huub

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2021, 03:39:23 AM »
introduction of EV will be purely dictated by price , right now the price per mile is pretty similar with a IC, because of the higher initial purchase.
in a couple of years with the price of batteries dropping rapidly the price of a new EV will be lower than a IC model , ( expected 2027)
by then you will need to have a really good reason to spend the extra money just to get the additional range or ease of filling up. .
its just a matter of time A IC car will be like a stickshift car, you really need to have a special reason to buy one of those.

Personally i cant wait for the cheap chinese EV to flood the EVmarket,
for me a car is a cheap way to go from point A to point B, i dont need a tesla with autopilot to get my groceries.
same with electric motorcycles ,
but right now value for money is just not there for current electric motorcycles ,
 i would happily do my 60 mile/day commute on a electric motorcycle, just not at the prices the zero/livewire/energica go for.


Offline s1120

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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2021, 07:11:28 AM »
I fired up the bike for the first time in a month.. it just stopped raining, and warmed up a little after a cold wet month..  Well its warming, and Im getting my helmet on, and ..... gas is pouring out of the fuel filter aera...  Kinda wish I had a electric bike right now...  :)    Ive been watching some videos on electric trail bikes, and it really looks kinda cool. I would really like to try one. Not sure Im ready to give up in IC.. I love my gas engines, and really enjoy my old tech V8's!  But really.. I welcome the change, and the option of a different way. Will it do it all??  Not for me, now. Am I looking hard into one of the new rechargeable lawn tractors for the yard? You bet!!  Would I like a nice smaller dual sport for buzzing around the back roads around home, or hitting a trail?  Yup.  I hope whatever HD has planned for the LW works out for them. Its not for everyone, but I think its a big step forward for the tech. And you know...  think how much more press the Zero got since the LW came out. Even if they kick it to the side, the ball is thrown. The thoughts, ideas, and advancements are out there. Someone else will come out with a bike, and I really hope its another big brand that will move the idea to the forefront . Frankly its not up to us...  Most of us have what...20 years left on this earth? The world is for the next generation, and we will see what they want. I just hope they keep some of the fun, and freedom in it, so they can enjoy the feeling of riding like we do.
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2021, 08:24:03 AM »
So, here is the stupid question of the day. Untill the batteries get better I can't believe a simple 4 stroke 30-50CC trimmer motor like Stihl sells couldn't spin an alternator to re-charge the batteries on an EV bike. Sure it won't be a full blown EV but good enough. Tops with a gallon of gas would be 15-18 LBS.
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Re: HD doens't want electric motorcycles
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2021, 08:34:57 AM »
I have no PHD on this subject or as far as that goes in any subjects. However in most cases common sense does me well.
You canít make chicken salad out of chicken $#|+ therefore donít except much of anything other than simply thinks like flashlights, weed eaters,etc, to run efficiently on battery power. Especially anything which weighs as much as a ton.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2021, 08:44:43 AM by Ncdan »

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