Author Topic: Bevel Drive Bolts  (Read 4233 times)

Offline remfanuk

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Bevel Drive Bolts
« on: June 30, 2022, 12:25:51 PM »
Hi

I am stripping the bevel drive so as to be able to get it cerakoted but am stuck on how to remove the bolts in the photos.  It feels like they are a 13mm but is still a bit sloppy.  A 12mm is too small.  How do I get these out without ruining them?  The gear is in the way so i cannot get a socket flat on them and the 13mm slipped off the bolt.

Thanks.




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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2022, 12:59:44 PM »
They should be 13mm. What brand of socket?  Maybe it’s a poor socket. In the Ambassadors tool kit there was a small Ford wrench with the handle shaped for a tire spoon. I found that to be a good tool for holding the spindle across the flats . I have some other Ford wrenches but that little one works the best. It’s not what you asked though. I have run across bolts that had the heads mis sized so maybe that’s it. I’d replace them. Maybe you can use an inch size, maybe half inch can be fit on with some tapping.
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2022, 01:59:30 PM »
my sockets are bahco and are usually spot on...but with the gear teeth in the way the socket will not go completely over the head of the bolt.  i tried the open end of a 13mm spanner/wrench and it just seemed to want to round itself off the bolt head.  again, not being able to get it flat/horizontal to the head the wrench is only partially seated.  i have got the drive in my vice so that prevents it from spinning, so at least got that bit sorted.  i am loathed to use some vice grips...irwin's i think...even though they are superb and never slide off what they are being used upon.  i dont have any imperial sockets.  am i missing some way of lifting the washer/spacer on the shaft which is what is preventing me getting the socket on the head fully?

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2022, 02:05:51 PM »
Ah, smallblock rear drive.  Yes,  you should pull the bearing race off of the shaft.  That will give you a LOT more clearance for your socket.  Caution, hard to see, but the bearing race is retained on the shaft by a very thin wire split ring.  Hard to see, but look at  your image at about the 7:00 or 8:00 area above the bearing race and  you can see the tip end of the retaining ring.  That has to be prised out with a pick before  you can pull the bearing race.

Patrick Hayes
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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2022, 02:05:51 PM »

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2022, 02:25:16 PM »
I pulled the roller bearing off the shaft okay...it's not in the photo.  do you mean the flange/spacer type thing you can see on the shaft in the photo?  if so, i had not looked how that was secured on there.  i think that might crack it as the roller bearing i took off the shaft was not secured by anything.  is the part you are referencing numbered in the photo below?

thanks




« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 02:32:52 PM by remfanuk »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2022, 06:49:57 PM »
I pulled the roller bearing off the shaft okay...it's not in the photo.  do you mean the flange/spacer type thing you can see on the shaft in the photo? if so, i had not looked how that was secured on there.  i think that might crack it as the roller bearing i took off the shaft was not secured by anything.  is the part you are referencing numbered in the photo below?

thanks




Yes. A little heat and a puller and it will come right off. Then you can get to the bolt heads properly. Throw away the plates under them and put shnoor washers under. I like the 3 piece ones.
This *is* a small block, right? What year? If before 87, there are other mods that need to be done.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2022, 06:51:52 PM by Chuck in Indiana »
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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2022, 11:02:56 PM »




I put an arrow to what I believe Patrick is referring to.
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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2022, 12:14:31 AM »
  is the part you are referencing numbered in the photo below?

thanks

Yes, but it is VERY obscure.  The split ring is #17 in your diagram.  Not shown anywhere near the bearing race.

Someone modified  you photograph with an arrow to show the split ring.  That's it.

You MUST remove the ring before pulling the race.  The outer or exposed portion of the shaft is actually the sealing surface for the smaller, inner seal.  Damage that sealing surface and you're in for leakage.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2022, 01:46:13 AM »
yes, this is a small block v50 mk2 (1979).  thanks for the advice about the plates and washers.

Guys, you are fantastic.  thank you.  i will have a go at this later today.  if all goes well i am confident i can separate these parts.  the arrowed photo shows the ring that you speak of...i would not have noticed that without your help.  cheers!

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2022, 05:59:39 AM »
So, i have had a look at this and although i have managed to loosen a couple of bolts you will see from the photos that 'A' (washer?) prevents the bolts coming out fully.  Although 'A' can move slightly it is not enough to get it out of the way.









There is no split in washer 'B' that i can seem which also moves and as can be seen in the photo there is sufficient gap between 'A' and 'B' for a razor blade to part them.  'C' does not seem to play any part in removing the washer/s from the shaft...so still confused how to get this out.  i hope this makes sense and you are able to advise me further.  i just dont want to damage anything by trying to prise either 'A' or 'B' out.  thanks.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 06:00:41 AM by remfanuk »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2022, 06:43:46 AM »
C has to come out first.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2022, 06:47:06 AM »
so C is also a split ring?  only needs prying out?

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2022, 08:22:11 AM »
so C is also a split ring?  only needs prying out?

Yes and yes.
Charlie

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2022, 11:42:30 AM »
Looking at your annotated photo.  The tip of the yellow arrow "C" is pointing directly at the open gap in the split ring that  retains the bearing race.  It is a simple, thin ring.  Look for the tip about 1/4" to the left of the yellow arrow point.  Prise out that ring and then use a puller to remove the bearing race and support washers.  B, C, and the bearing race will all pull off together.  You can then easily remove the bolts.

Patrick Hayes
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2022, 04:11:07 PM »
I once did a tutorial on completely doing all that needs to be done on the old small block rear drive but photoblockit ransomed me to store my pix. It was a *lot*, too.. $5 a month IIRC. Sent them a nasty gram telling them what and where they could kiss after all those years of reading their ads to post a picture.
There is some other old small block stuff in this thread..
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89034.90
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2022, 06:36:12 PM »
I don't understand. The OP was told he needed to remove the clip and bearing race to get the socket to fit the bolt heads correctly and remove the bolts but ignored this and went ahead anyway! Am I missing something here?

Phil
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 06:41:25 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2022, 04:26:21 AM »
I don't understand. The OP was told he needed to remove the clip and bearing race to get the socket to fit the bolt heads correctly and remove the bolts but ignored this and went ahead anyway! Am I missing something here?

Phil

Calm down Phil...all is well...  :grin: I didn't ignore the advice but thought I would see if the bolts would pass by the spacer and then out.  i have no pick or screwdriver that will get into the recess where this split ring sits.  i can move it along by gently tapping a thin screwdriver but that won't go behind it to pry it out...neither will the razor blade.  i gently heated the bearing race to see if that would help.  it didn't.  i cannot see how to get something behind the ring to prise it out.  when looking in the workshop manual there is a photo of the bearing race being taken out by a bearing puller and the bolts had already been removed, which confused me.




Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2022, 06:05:12 AM »
although it has not ultimately done what i expected, i have been able to get the bolts out, leaving the metal 'o ring', as MG call it, in place by taking the smallest of nibbles out of it with a dremel die grinder.  so the gear ring is now separated from the backing plate...thought more would have come off but no. 

i dont want to damage the shaft but i am honestly out of a solution to get the split ring out to enable me to take the bearing race out followed by the o ring and shim, as MG refer to it.  obviously there is the massive ball bearing to remove once i get to that point.  i am not sure i can get heat right where it's needed on the backing plate to remove it from the gear ring side.  when looking down the hole the shaft sits in there is a small relief that could possibly have a drift applied to it to drive out the gear ring shaft - last photo.  or would that just damage it?  i really want to be able to do this myself if i can.  thanks.









 

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2022, 07:06:25 AM »
Quote
by taking the smallest of nibbles out of it with a dremel die grinder. 
:shocked:
Sorry, but that wasn't a good idea. There is a reason that grinding machines are segregated in the machine shop. The hard "chips" that are removed when grinding are sharp circular things..not to mention the carborundum that comes off the wheel. They get *everywhere* and you had better get every microscopic particle out before reassembling.
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2022, 07:28:08 AM »
absolutely i will get every last bit out...although i am still stuck as to how to disassemble the bloody thing first!  am i right in thinking that i want to minimise any kind of damage to the shaft where the split ring is?  i ask because i cannot see how to 'pry' it out without leveraging what i use to pry it out against.  i tried holding a pick against one side of the split ring whilst doing the same the other side and pulling on it to stretch out the split ring in the hope that was how to do it.  nope.  what would you guys use to pry it out and how please?  thanks

Offline guzziart

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2022, 07:45:59 AM »
....I realize you want to "do it yourself" but maybe it is time for outside finese.  Possibly run the assembly up to your local bike shop, etc. and see if they can put a tech on it for a minute to pop the snap ring off??!!  They'd probably let you watch so you could do it yourself next time after you buy a scratch awl or dental picks at Harbor Freight or flea market. 

Art
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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2022, 07:49:37 AM »
I’d say reach out to Hamlin, Enzo, Pete Roper, or any of the other pro shop peeps who’ve worked specifically on the small blocks and see if they have the answer for you. I’d hate for you to spend too much of your free time anticipating THE answer as you continue to receive helpful suggestions that don’t actually solve the direct issue. You know the part number, maybe take that info and shoot emails out to all these folks. (And then report back here so we all become a bit wiser ;) )
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2022, 07:56:52 AM »
thank you Dirk...i shall do that.  cheers  :thumb:

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2022, 08:39:27 AM »
....I realize you want to "do it yourself" but maybe it is time for outside finese.  Possibly run the assembly up to your local bike shop, etc. and see if they can put a tech on it for a minute to pop the snap ring off??!!  They'd probably let you watch so you could do it yourself next time after you buy a scratch awl or dental picks at Harbor Freight or flea market. 

Art

You might be right Art...however, all the parts diagrams i have looked at do not describe this offending piece as a snap ring or split ring, simply as a clearance washer so not sure what the actual process is to remove it.  i could just put it all back together and paint rather than cerakote!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2022, 08:47:04 AM »
*I don't remember* how I removed it. That means it wasn't hard to do..  :smiley: <shrug>  Probably just worked the tip of a scriber under it enough to lever one leg up, slide the scriber under it and run it around the shaft.
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2022, 10:22:54 AM »
*I don't remember* how I removed it. That means it wasn't hard to do..  :smiley: <shrug>  Probably just worked the tip of a scriber under it enough to lever one leg up, slide the scriber under it and run it around the shaft.

^^ This. Two pointed picks or scribes to remove it. It's just spring wire, so there's not much tension.

There are technical training videos on Greg Bender's website, scroll down almost to the bottom for the small-block rear drive one.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html
Charlie

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2022, 10:32:41 AM »
^^ This. Two pointed picks or scribes to remove it. It's just spring wire, so there's not much tension.

There are technical training videos on Greg Bender's website, scroll down almost to the bottom for the small-block rear drive one.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html

with everyone saying that this part can be removed easily i doubted myself...as it is rock hard and no bending in it at all.  but...that video shows how it was got out.  maybe i need to use 2 very slim flat head screwdrivers rather than using the picks which dont really seem to be doing anything.  at least i know 100% now what i should be doing.  thanks i will persevere as i was thinking of cutting through the bearing race that this ring is holding in place!

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2022, 11:00:23 AM »
…There are technical training videos on Greg Bender's website, scroll down almost to the bottom for the small-block rear drive one.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html

Thanks for pointing these out— Wish I’d known they existed when I was doing my clutch replacement 5 weeks ago.
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2022, 06:08:36 PM »
You might be right Art...however, all the parts diagrams i have looked at do not describe this offending piece as a snap ring or split ring, simply as a clearance washer so not sure what the actual process is to remove it.  i could just put it all back together and paint rather than cerakote!

Firstly you need to bear in mind you're reading an English translation of an italian parts and shop manual. You need to join the dots wording wise. Not having a pick to extract the clip means you need to buy some. The other suggestion I have for you is to try tapping the sleeve down toward the gear (or preferably press it down) and see if that releases the pressure on the clip or at least gives you some extra space to get to it and lever it out.

Phil
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2022, 06:45:35 AM »
i have tried all my picks and bought a jeweller's screwdriver set for their smallness...still no joy.  there is no lifting the ring/clip out at all.  i will try your option Phil of using my press to see what that might but not sure that might simply tighten the two parts together but also might buckle the clip allowing me to get it out.  if that doesn't work my only other option is to gently cut through the bearing race whilst keeping in mind the debris that will lead to but i don't think i have any other choice.

 

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