Horrors in My Bellhousing!!

[smdl]

Well, still haven't got it out.  Seems like when I am able to get some fore/aft movement, that "cover" seems to restrict the "fore" enough to prevent clearing the frame down by the output shaft.  If I drop the front more, I eventually hit a point when the top of the alternator cover impacts the frame and prevents any further forward movement.  I'd pull the little cover off to gain a few millimeters, but the top bolt is obscured by the frame. 

I'm going to sleep on it tonight and give it another go first thing tomorrow.  I think I'll start by looking to see if I can get the alternator cover off and gain a bit of working room.  Not sure that is the right path as the manual doesn't mention it, but worth a try.

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

Get a mate in! I remember that me press ganging Ian into helping me made it so much easier and we coached each other on our memorised profanity while we were at it.

I seem to remember Phang also waxed lyrical about the number of new Cantonese swear words he learnt while pulling his mate's Stelvio donk! So it's an international, nay, global requirement! If you want to pull a Stelvio power plant you swear, A LOT! 

Pete

[smdl]

Get a mate in! I remember that me press ganging Ian into helping me made it so much easier and we coached each other on our memorised profanity while we were at it.

I seem to remember Phang also waxed lyrical about the number of new Cantonese swear words he learnt while pulling his mate's Stelvio donk! So it's an international, nay, global requirement! If you want to pull a Stelvio power plant you swear, A LOT! 

Pete

Oh, don't worry, Pete; I'm definitely keeping up the tradition!  I'm starting to worry about what the neighbors are going to think of me!    Trouble is, it's peak vacation season here, and most of my mechanically-minded mates are otherwise engaged (away or working).  I've got one option (a good one, too) that I might be able to lure out with a promise of a beverage, or two.  We'll see.

Otherwise, out come the chain saw and can opener!  If the can opener doesn't get the engine out, I might just use it to open a can of whoop-ass! 

More to follow...

Shaun

[Phang]

Hi Shaun,

I dropped the engine of a Stelvio together with my mate 3 months ago, an extra pairs of helping hand definitely helps.

Besides placing scissors jacks (exactly same like yours but in blue colour if that matters) under the engine, we also use chain block hanging the chassis/bike from the roof trusses. The chain blocks allowed us to tilt the bike fore/aft to facilitate the engine removal.

The engine only came out after we removed the "blanking plate" or cover [5]

Before we shoe horn the engine back to the frame, we made our own "blanking plate" or cover [5] with 3mm aluminium plate and countersunk head bolts, sealed with threebond 1211. A few mm less in width made the engine went back with zero drama and effort and no leak or weep from the port till now.

In case your usual swearings didn't work, I have one for you in Cantonese, it worked on the Stelvio before and your neighbours has no idea what you are yelling too.

Teeewww... (sounds like dew but pronounce in T instead of D) - meaning fxxx

[Wayne Orwig]

Ice down the motor, that will shrink it down enough for it to drop out. 

 

The engine only came out after we removed the "blanking plate" or cover [5]

I thought the screws for that plate were hidden behind the frame.

[smdl]

Hi Shaun,

I dropped the engine of a Stelvio together with my mate 3 months ago, an extra pairs of helping hand definitely helps.

Besides placing scissors jacks (exactly same like yours but in blue colour if that matters) under the engine, we also use chain block hanging the chassis/bike from the roof trusses. The chain blocks allowed us to tilt the bike fore/aft to facilitate the engine removal.

The engine only came out after we removed the "blanking plate" or cover [5]

Before we shoe horn the engine back to the frame, we made our own "blanking plate" or cover [5] with 3mm aluminium plate and countersunk head bolts, sealed with threebond 1211. A few mm less in width made the engine went back with zero drama and effort and no leak or weep from the port till now.

In case your usual swearings didn't work, I have one for you in Cantonese, it worked on the Stelvio before and your neighbours has no idea what you are yelling too.

Teeewww... (sounds like dew but pronounce in T instead of D) - meaning fxxx

Blue!!  I knew I should have gotten the blue jack!!  Teeewww!!  I like that -- it rhymes with "blue", and my neighbors will have no clue.  Should have been poet...

With regard to the chain hoist, I'm using an engine hoist like in Pete's pictures.  I've used this far more for motorcycles that car engines!

Thanks for the idea on replacing the cover/blanking plate.  I'm not sure how you got it off with the engine in the bike, but I'm going to go have a look.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Ice down the motor, that will shrink it down enough for it to drop out. 

 

I thought the screws for that plate were hidden behind the frame.

Great idea, Wayne!  Maybe I'll just wait until Winter when it is -30C, then take a blow torch to the frame.  Should work a treat!   

Now, back to the evil #5.

Shaun

[smdl]

Phang, if you're still tuned in, do you remember how you managed to get that cover off?  I can almost get a hex key on the upper bolt (lower was no problem), but I can't see a way to get clearance to remove it.

Thanks.
Shaun

[Phang]

Thanks for the idea on replacing the cover/blanking plate.  I'm not sure how you got it off with the engine in the bike, but I'm going to go have a look.

Cheers,
Shaun

It's not easy, I remember we used a ball ended hex key and long nose pliers to unscrew the two bolts hidden right behind the frame tube.

The cover was deformed, the threads was knackered a little but was restored by running a tap while the engine was out on the floor. That's part of the reason why we decided not to use the same plastic cover when reinstall the engine.

Don't worry, you will get it out eventually.

Remember, if Phang can cook, so can you.

[smdl]

Thanks, Phang.  Funny while waiting for your response, I did almost exactly what you describe, although i didn't need to use pliers, and the threads are fine.  I just raised the engine and gearbox to the highest possible position, and that placed the upper bolt on plate 5 just visible within the "Y" of the two frame tubes.  A long ball-end hex socket was then able to get in there, and there was just enough space to back the bolt out.  That little bit made an enormous difference, and we had the engine out in a few minutes.



Hah!

Lessons learned:

1.   Do not try this alone!  You need at least two, and maybe three people to do it safely.  Huge thanks to my friends Dom and Steve.  It took two of us on the engine, and one on the hoist to make it work.  The engine/gearbox combination is also heavy, and moving it from the jacks to a flat surface is not easy.
2.   While it must be possible to remove and install the engine without removing cover (5), I really don't see how.  Save yourself some trouble, and just plan on taking it off.  I am also going to follow Phang's lead and replace it with something thinner. 
3.   Plan to swear and drink a lot.  Stock  up on appropriate supplies in advance.   
4.   Don't try this at home.  This work was completed by professionals in a controlled environment.  Magic words were used, such as "hold my beer" and "watch this"   

Finally, I think I am going to delete this thread once complete, as no one should be denied the enjoyment of figuring this out on their own.     Seriously, folks, thanks for your help on this.   

Wait until I try to get this thing back in!

Cheers,
Shaun

[Chuck in Indiana]

Perseverance wins again.  Attaboy..

[Wayne Orwig]

Still want to see what is going on inside there. 

[smdl]

Perseverance wins again.  Attaboy..

True, but lets not forget brute force and ignorance...

Thanks, Chuck!

Shaun

[smdl]

Still want to see what is going on inside there. 

Me, too!  Just taking a quick lunch break, and will then pull the gearbox.

Shaun

[pauldaytona]

The guy at the factory get the complete unit in the frame, there must be a way to get it out.

[smdl]

The guy at the factory get the complete unit in the frame, there must be a way to get it out.

Agreed, that's why I said "It must be possible...".  However, I don't do it a dozen or more times a day, like he likely does, so I think I'll make it a bit easier on myself.

Shaun

[smdl]

Okay, got the gearbox off, and everything looks just fine!  I don't know what all the fuss was about...







 

I had already planned to replace the entire clutch assembly, including flywheel, but I am now more concerned about the gearbox side. There are no leaks, but a good part of the inner face of the bellhousing has been machined away by the clutch coming apart. 

I'll dig into this a bit further, but does anyone know if the bellhousing can easily be replaced without having to disassemble the whole gearbox? 

Also, I'm going to need to figure out how the clutch comes apart.  If those unrecognizable blobs are actually pan-head hex bolts, I might need to grind them off. 

Oh, well, at least I now know what I am dealing with .  I also know that there was no doubt that taking this apart was the right thing to do.  Good thing I didn't leave it awhile or it would have come apart completely.

Any input would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Shaun

[nick949]

Impressive tenacity Shaun.   

Nick

[Vasco DG]

Shit! What a mess!

Firstly the dome head hex bolts only hold on the ring gear. Grind the buggers off, you'll be junking what they screw into. From memory the new clutch comes with a new ring gear too. Once the ring gear is off you'll be able to get to the other bolts which will hopefully of avoided damage.

As for the case itself? No way to replace that without a complete strip and rebuild into a new case. I suppose the question is how deep has the self propelling lathe tool cut into the casting? I have a spare six speed in the shed, I'll try and compare it with the pics of your damaged one later today.

Pete

[smdl]

Impressive tenacity Shaun.   

Nick

Thanks, Nick.  Not much choice but to keep going!   

Shaun

[smdl]

Shit! What a mess!

Firstly the dome head hex bolts only hold on the ring gear. Grind the buggers off, you'll be junking what they screw into. From memory the new clutch comes with a new ring gear too. Once the ring gear is off you'll be able to get to the other bolts which will hopefully of avoided damage.

As for the case itself? No way to replace that without a complete strip and rebuild into a new case. I suppose the question is how deep has the self propelling lathe tool cut into the casting? I have a spare six speed in the shed, I'll try and compare it with the pics of your damaged one later today.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.  Yep, ground 'em off, and I have the whole mess out now.  Will post some additional pics shortly.

S

[smdl]

Okay, here's a shot of the engine side:



Some good news, in that the area around the main bearing is hardly touched, and the area of idler shaft (or whatever they call what used to be a cam) is only superficially marked.  The only area with any significant impact would be the mounting bosses that the center/side stand mechanism bolts into.  It's hard to tell exactly how much material has been removed there as I don't have a good picture of an original engine case.  However, it looks like there is lots of material remaining, and I don't think it will be an issue.

Pete, it looks like the self-propelling lathe tool machined about 4-5mm into the circular mounting boss, which I assume supports one of the main shafts on the other side.  Not sure how much material is there, and what is remaining...

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but here's a pic of an undamaged case....



Pete

PS. If it isn't leaking then the physical integrity of the case is fine but whether it's structural integrity is alright is the $64,000 question. The temptation would be to just clean it all up thoroughly and build the bearing boss up again with JB Weld or some such but one still wouldn't know if the case has had its strength compromised and you really don't want the case coming apart under load.

Good news is that casing, listed as the 'Clutch Box' retails for only $206 in the U.S. Yes you'll probably need a couple of bearings and seals and I'll have to send you the gearbox splitting tools but it could be a whole lot worse!

[charlie b]

This is all really interesting.  I've only see one clutch lose springs like that, and it was a car back in the 60's. 

I would guess the problem is, what lies behind that big boss that has the MOTO GUZZI letters on it and how thick is it?  Doesn't seem to be leaking....yet.  Looks like 1/4" was cut away?  Does that make for something really bad or is there enough beef there to survive?

If not could it be built back up by welding?  Yeah, cast aluminum and all.  And would require a complete teardown to do it.  Worth it or just get a new case?

Sorry, didn't see the rest of Pete's post.  $200, I'd get a new case.

[smdl]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but here's a pic of an undamaged case....



Pete

PS. If it isn't leaking then the physical integrity of the case is fine but whether it's structural integrity is alright is the $64,000 question. The temptation would be to just clean it all up thoroughly and build the bearing boss up again with JB Weld or some such but one still wouldn't know if the case has had its strength compromised and you really don't want the case coming apart under load.

Good news is that casing, listed as the 'Clutch Box' retails for only $206 in the U.S. Yes you'll probably need a couple of bearings and seals and I'll have to send you the gearbox splitting tools but it could be a whole lot worse!

Thanks, Pete. 

Hey, I used to have one that looked just like that!   

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about just building it back up with JB Weld or even regular weld, but with the cost for the new piece being somewhat reasonable, it doesn't make any sense to take that risk.  I've never been through a motorcycle gearbox, but now is as good a time as any to learn, I suppose. 

Again, thanks for all your help.  It really means a lot!  I can order the clutch box on Tuesday, along with any other bearings and seals.  Is there a standard list of what is needed?

What are your thoughts on the engine side.  I think it's okay, but I don't have a good picture of a modern engine to get a feel of how much material was originally present at that mounting area.  Still lot's there, so I'm not overly worried, but it would be good to compare. 

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

The engine side is fine. Leave it alone. I'll dig the gearbox splitting tools out and get them off to you. You'll need a washer for under the neutral switch too as that is sensitive and has to be torqued 'Just So' to work correctly. I'll have a squizz at the parts list and see what you're likely to need.

Pete

[smdl]

The engine side is fine. Leave it alone. I'll dig the gearbox splitting tools out and get them off to you. You'll need a washer for under the neutral switch too as that is sensitive and has to be torqued 'Just So' to work correctly. I'll have a squizz at the parts list and see what you're likely to need.

Pete

Great, thanks, Pete.

Shaun

[Wayne Orwig]

I think the big gouge through the bearing cover casting would bee too risky to leave alone. If it was ultra expensive I would disassemble and weld. But for that money, I would just replace to.

Save the JB Weld for the springs.

Bummer.

[Chuck in Indiana]

This is all really interesting.  I've only see one clutch lose springs like that, and it was a car back in the 60's. 

It's not all that unusual with small block clutches. If you pull the rubber stopper and see what looks like a brazillion prick punch marks, that's what has happened at some time in it's life, or it's happening now. 

[Vasco DG]

Right Shaun, I've dug up the 'Gearbox opening tool' as it is somewhat mysteriously called! It's not cheap, even in the U.S. It's a $180 tool, along with the other tools there's the best part of a grand in 'special stuff' so please take care of it. I won't bother sending it by courier as the last bag was gauranteed to get to you in two days and hasn't, as you say it's probably languishing in customs, bastards.that cost me over a hundred beer tokens!

Also you'll have to order in the 'Clutch Box' and the other crap needed which I'll do my best to make a list of what I think you'll need. The tool is in a variety of bits but it's fairly self explanatory. I do suggest you download the manual before you dive in though.

I haven't done an 8V box as they are pretty much unbreakable, I have taken apart a B11 box though and apart from the face cam shock absorber they are essentially the same. If you can be bothered I'm sure there are a lot of folks who would appreciate some pics of it coming apart and going back together.

Pete