Creamy oil in airbox

[Error]

Another oil in airbox thread?!? Unfortunately yes. Slight twist.

I have read through as many posts as I can find on the topic, and haven’t found one yet with the same issue.

2016 V7ii North American Bike

26k kms on the clock.

Last year I changed several gaskets (including a head gasket) and all fluids. Bike ran fine, and sometimes ended up with some oil in the airbox. After I settled on 1.6 liters of oil in the sump, I didn’t get much in the air box at all.

Stored the bike in the garage over winter. I changed the oil and filter so time over the winter, and then got the bike on the road in March.

The creamy oil in the box has been happening every ride this year.

Ambient temp has been below 20c (under 68 freedom units), and my initial though it’s it was just moisture build up in the bike and would go away.

Next step is draining the oil to check volume and see if I can see any issues.

But has anyone had the same? Anything I should
Be looking for? Seems like this has to be water in the oil or bike mixing air and oil and frothing, I just don’t understand from where.

[Dirk_S]

Could simply be environmental air pressure. My bike sits out, and even covered, it’ll accumulate some moisture into the engine. And if you don’t ride the bike enough for long enough miles, the engine wont get hot enough, long enough, to boil the water out of the oil. How does your air filter look?

[Error]

Air filter is fine. Not enough oil in the box to be getting to it. It’s a K&N, but very lightly oiled and none of the “froth” is red. So it’s not really a suspect.

I can see the same “froth” coloured oil in the tube port in the airbox, so I know it’s coming from the breather system somehow.

No leaks that I can see that would indicated a hole pulling into moisture and air.

Most of my rides are short, normally 30-40 min, but they do involve 10+ min of 100km per hour or so. I would
Have thought that would have gotten the oil close to temp. Maybe not with the ambient temp under 20. Just weird I didn’t run into this last fall.

[Kev m]

It's classic not coming up to temp enough at some part of the system, even if that's just what sticks under the valve cover near the breather.

Once the oil becomes emulsified it's not going to cook out under most operating conditions. I've had two big blocks that formed mayo under their valve covers in winter riding even with extended time/distance.

Can't say I've ever found any in the smallblocks but I ride much less in the winter these days.

[Error]

Interesting, thanks for the reply’s. I’ll keep an eye on it, and hopefully get it out for a longer ride soon.

[Kev m]

Interesting, thanks for the reply’s. I’ll keep an eye on it, and hopefully get it out for a longer ride soon.

You need to pull the valve covers and physically clean out the mayo and blow out the breather hoses.

[Tom]

Any highway speeds over an hour will help with "burning off" the moisture.  Change the oil again.  Flush your oil lines.  Do the same for the final drive.    Doing an "Italian tune-up" really helps.   

[Error]

You need to pull the valve covers and physically clean out the mayo and blow out the breather hoses.

I actually had the covers off to adjust the valves on both sides after the first couple of rides as I thought I was getting an odd noise.

Valves in spec, no mayo in the head.

But blowing out the lines seems like a good idea.

I know very little about the breather system in these bikes other than some people hate it. I’ll have to do some reading.

[John A]

I used to run an oil temp gauge, same setup over multiple Guzzi’s for many miles. I drilled and tapped the oil drain plug for the sender.    The point is that it consistently took thirty miles for the oil temp to stabilize at its operating temp and it would fluctuate from there depending on load and ambient temp. Most of the time the oil didn’t get hot enough for long enough to boil off the condensation. I try to run it thirty miles every time I start it and that helps a little. It’s not a problem when it’s hot out . You don’t have to run the breather drain into the air box.

[Dukedesmo]

I have a combined oil filler/dipstick/temp gauge, after a decent run it will normally be showing an oil temp of around 100c. I've not had any issues with mayo...

[Beowulf]

I have found as the above comments that some oils seem more prone to producing mayo under my valve covers. That’s purely subjective and I ran several brands of oil and during that time I did find a couple that didn’t seem produce that effect. I experimented with my v7ii over 40000 miles and really around 20000 found one for that bike that I didn’t have that problem. Now keep in mind  I ride daily, all weather and usually an hour one way minimum and still had the mayo effect till experimenting.

I of course stuck with 10w60. It’s a theory but I really wonder if the mayo hasn’t something to do with ester components in oil. Maybe not. My advice try a different brand of 10w60 and see if it dies better. It did for me. I run the same one in all my bikes now and haven’t had the same issue since. Your mileage may vary.

[Error]

I have an oil temp/pressure gauge on the car I do track days with. I was suprised at how long it took the oil to get to temp when I first started using it. I would have figured on the small oil value Guzzi it would
Have gotten to temp much faster.

I’ll keep checking it out. Had a lovely ride today, haven’t checked the box yet.

[Kev m]

I have an oil temp/pressure gauge on the car I do track days with. I was suprised at how long it took the oil to get to temp when I first started using it. I would have figured on the small oil value Guzzi it would
Have gotten to temp much faster.

I’ll keep checking it out. Had a lovely ride today, haven’t checked the box yet.

Is your track car air cooled?

The challenge of air cooled motors, especially bikes, is to make sure they cool sufficiently in all conditions which can lead to overcooling in conditions under which they are less often used (i.e. winter/cold ambients).

[Dukedesmo]

Quote from: Kev m on Today at 01:32:31 AM

Is your track car air cooled?

The challenge of air cooled motors, especially bikes, is to make sure they cool sufficiently in all conditions which can lead to overcooling in conditions they are used less often in.

___________________ ___________________ ________

Indeed, compare my 2 Ducatis for instance:

Effectively they are very similar engines, sharing the same bottom end and similar displacement but one being air cooled, the other water cooled. Not only does the water cooled engine run at a more consistent temperature it also warms up much quicker, especially noticeable as I have the same aftermarket digital dash on both which displays oil temperature and the air cooled takes an age even show a temperature (only displays when above 40c) whereas the water cooled hits 40c within a couple of minutes.

Also, in all but extremely hot conditions the air cooled runs a cooler oil temperature (generally by 10 - 20 degrees) but, in extreme heat will ultimately get hotter - though being in England that is rare...

[paulbricey]

Most of the mayo forms in the separator box at the headstock & along lines to airbox & sump. If there's a lot in the airbox, there will be even more at the bottom of the sump & in my experience hard riding & oil changes doesn't shift it....at least stuck at the sump bottom, it won't get back into the oil galleries.

[Kev m]

Most of the mayo forms in the separator box at the headstock & along lines to airbox & sump. If there's a lot in the airbox, there will be even more at the bottom of the sump & in my experience hard riding & oil changes doesn't shift it....at least stuck at the sump bottom, it won't get back into the oil galleries.

FYI, the late-model smallblock crankcase vent routing vary a bit from year to year.

And personally I've never found mayo in the sump of any of my Guzzis, including big blocks that I commuted on through freezing winters but that's just two late-model smallblocks, on Tonti Cali, and one CARC other modes or ambient conditions may cause variances.

[Moparnut72]

Harleys are known to run hotter than Hades. However the Sportster I had was notorious for making vanilla milkshakes in the winter. In my opinion the best engine, short of the modern Revolutions, Harley ever built. It didn't run hot in hot weather either.
kk

[Kev m]

Harleys are known to run hotter than Hades. However the Sportster I had was notorious for making vanilla milkshakes in the winter. In my opinion the best engine, short of the modern Revolutions, Harley ever built. It didn't run hot in hot weather either.
kk

Many years back I posted comparative pyrometer data here with temps from various EVO Harleys and Tonti/CARC Guzzis operated side-by-side under the same conditions. It showed a lot of assumptions regarding engine temps based solely on cylinder layout were wrong and temps are largely the result of tuning more than just design, especially with the leaner combustion allowed by feedback injection.

I've seen mayo come out of a Harley too, specifically the over-cooled early carbureted rubbermounts (04-06) used in too frequent winter stop and go. You see in 2004 Harley introduced the rubbermounted Sportster which incorporated a number of changes to engine design including greatly increased cooling surface areas. These areas (and piston oil squirters) were going to be needed in 07+ when they added closed-loop EFI, but those first three years had carburetors and ran much cooler combustion temps, which in turn led to much cooler overall engine temps. You could see this just by monitoring oil bag temps and comparing between solidmounts, carb rubbermounts, and later EFI rubbermounts.

Anyway, to my first point, feedback EFI Guzzi cylinder temps (CARC) were higher than Harley carbureted rubbermount EVO Sportster temps.

[Moparnut72]

My Sportster was a carbed 2006. I haven't had my V100 in the heat yet, so I can't comment on it at this point.
kk

[faffi]

My V9 smell hot even after gentle riding in fairly cool conditions. Hottest point I measured was the exhaust outlets at 125C, with 105C around the header/cylinder head, both taken a few minutes after shutting off the engine.

Enough about that. Only air cooled engine I have owned that made mayo was my CB100, after it had passed 7k miles or so. Could be because I did not know that it had an oil filter inside the clutch cover, not just the washable screen. I changed the oil every 1000 miles and rode it 10k miles.

[jpv7]

My 2016 did the exact same thing from new, even with properly adjusted oil level.  I ended up using a small go cart catch can and plugging the air box connection where the line went in.  I strapped the small catch can to the frame using a Velcro strap.  Screwed a small 90 degree fitting into top of can and ran the line to it.  I did use a small foam cover on the vent of the can to catch any mist.  Used it for 2 years before I sold the bike.  Cleaned the can out once per year.  Worked well.

Another oil in airbox thread?!? Unfortunately yes. Slight twist.

I have read through as many posts as I can find on the topic, and haven’t found one yet with the same issue.

2016 V7ii North American Bike

26k kms on the clock.

Last year I changed several gaskets (including a head gasket) and all fluids. Bike ran fine, and sometimes ended up with some oil in the airbox. After I settled on 1.6 liters of oil in the sump, I didn’t get much in the air box at all.

Stored the bike in the garage over winter. I changed the oil and filter so time over the winter, and then got the bike on the road in March.

The creamy oil in the box has been happening every ride this year.

Ambient temp has been below 20c (under 68 freedom units), and my initial though it’s it was just moisture build up in the bike and would go away.

Next step is draining the oil to check volume and see if I can see any issues.

But has anyone had the same? Anything I should
Be looking for? Seems like this has to be water in the oil or bike mixing air and oil and frothing, I just don’t understand from where.

[brother dave]

Creamy oil?  This could be as a result of water mixing with oil and then being "mixed" somewhere in the engine.   If this substance is appearing anywhere inside the engine it can "cook" due to engine heat and harden over time.  Then you got problems....

[Error]

Wow, tons of good information here.

Once I find a good low measuring bowl I’ll be draining the oil to check for mayo and volume. But a catch can seems like a good idea as well. I’ll have to read up on it a bit more, but I like the idea of eliminating the breather all together and just have a catch can setup.

I’ll pop the covers again as well, but if there is no frothing u ver the covers, I’ll leave it until summer to see if it’s still kicking into the box.

Thanks for all the info here.

[Error]

Well this is a bit annoying.

No mayo under the valve covers. But tonight I decided to drain the oil. I wanted to see first how much was actually still in the pan, and second if there was a bunch of frothy mess in there.

First I drained the front plug, about 1 liter came out, so already off to a not great start. Pulled the rear plug and the mayo poured out. Some in globs.

All in all only about 1.3 liters of fluid was drained. Which means about 300ml disappeared in 1000kms. I’m less than thrilled. Bike really doesn't seem to be burning oil out the pipes, but it’s going somewhere. I’d admit the bike was cold when I drained the oil, but I don’t think that will make up the missing fluid.

So now I’ll be getting a new oil pan gasket, dropping the pan, cleaning it all out and starting again to see if it comes back. While my rides aren’t super long, (usually 30-45 min) I’m still surprised I’m running into this.