Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 850brian on November 30, 2023, 09:19:37 AM
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Hello there, I am starting a new thread about restoring a 75 850t. I have changed out the cylinders thanks to this forum however I am trying to diagnose a problem I noticed before I swapped the cylinders. The engine is only firing on the right cylinder and nothing on thr left. I am getting spark on the left. Any ideas on what could be going on?
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Have you looked at the plugs, are they wet with fuel? Have you popped the float bowls off the carbs to check for gunk in the jets? If you have spark, which you do, and fuel, and compression, it should fire up.
Rick D.
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The first thing I would do, especially not knowing the history of any work on the engine is verify the timing. What confused me years ago was the left cylinder is called #2. It’s because they are numbered front to back, not left to right. The engine is timed off #2. With the covers off and plugs out, roll the engine over and watch the valves opening. When the intake opens on the left and starts to close put a finger over the plug hole and as you keep turning the engine over you will feel pressure. That is compression and you are on compression stroke. The spark should fire a few degrees before the piston gets to the top, top dead center. There should be a line visible on the flywheel marking the fixed advance as well as one for tdc . Check the distributor to see if it is in a position to have the points open for the left side. If not, that is the problem.
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My T3 is timed off both cylinders.
D for Right
S for Left
Set the cylinder connected to fixed points to its correct timing first.
Then touch up the movable point set to get second cylinder in sync.
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My T3 is timed off both cylinders.
D for Right
S for Left
Set the cylinder connected to fixed points to its correct timing first.
Then touch up the movable point set to get second cylinder in sync.
Sure it is, I meant in the deeper sense like timing valve events. As you look at the engine from the front and observe the timing marks on the crank and cam wheels, they line up when the engine is on #2 compression stroke tdc.
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The first thing I would do, especially not knowing the history of any work on the engine is verify the timing. What confused me years ago was the left cylinder is called #2. It’s because they are numbered front to back, not left to right. The engine is timed off #2. With the covers off and plugs out, roll the engine over and watch the valves opening. When the intake opens on the left and starts to close put a finger over the plug hole and as you keep turning the engine over you will feel pressure. That is compression and you are on compression stroke. The spark should fire a few degrees before the piston gets to the top, top dead center. There should be a line visible on the flywheel marking the fixed advance as well as one for tdc . Check the distributor to see if it is in a position to have the points open for the left side. If not, that is the problem.
Looks like this newbie has some researching to do. Thank you for the info. I head too that having a bent valve could be the cause? Would I bent valve still move?
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Looks like this newbie has some researching to do. Thank you for the info. I head too that having a bent valve could be the cause? Would I bent valve still move?
Yep, depending on where it’s bent. The easiest one to bend is the exhaust for it chases the piston when it opens. It only takes a touch to bend one as you are experimenting with cam timing. Don’t ask how I learned that. Didn’t expect the crank has enough weight that it will roll after the weight passes a point. I suspect the distributor is installed 180 out and as you roll it over and look at stuff you should be able to determine that as well as feel the compression which will not be there or reduced from the other side if a valve is bent and not seating
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I wouldn’t think a valve was bent but the valves should have been checked when you did the other engine work.
At a minimum when the heads were off you could turn them upside down with a plug installed and pour some liquid over the valves (if you’re in your house preferably nothing highly flammable, this rules out acetone) and blow some air in the intake and exhaust ports. If the valves aren’t sealing you will see air bubbles showing around the valve and seat.
The old saying is you need three things, air, fuel, spark. You have spark (if it’s there at the right time is another thing) you’ll have air but it needs to compress, check compression. Fuel, add some in the carb inlet, and see if it fires. I do not recommend starting fluid, it can cause severe damage.
Chip away and find out what you have and let the members know, they will tailor their advice based on what you can tell them.
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I don't recall who it was...maybe Pat Hayes? who was having an issue of not firing on one cylinder. Whoever it was figured out that it was a weak coil; compressed (cylinder) gasses require more energy to spark. The coil was good enough for ambient pressure, but not able to spark at compression.
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I agree with verifying the timing is as good as you can get it. To do this you really need to modify the brush plate in the distributer so it turns far enough. I think This Old Tractor site has a couple write ups. Once you are confident the timing and valves are correct and it still only runs on one side then spray some starter fluid in the carb on that side. If it runs some then it’s a carb/fuel problem if it won’t fire then it’s a spark issue and then you can take the correct trouble shooting path from there. It’s one or the other, fuel or spark, figure that out first.
Link to distributor mod needed.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_tonti_distributor_dual_points_plate_modification_so_you_can_time_both_cylinders_properly.html
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If it were mine I'd clean points, lube dizzy & have a go at it, next would be change old plug wires.
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Lots of good places to start. I am swamped with work this week but will post an update in a few.
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Lots of good places to start. I am swamped with work this week but will post an update in a few.
:grin:
Take a few days off, we want to know!
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Ordered some new condensers just in case and will be inspecting the points tomorrow. Hope to have a positive update tomorrow!
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what part of Ok?
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what part of Ok?
Okc!
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Update: put new condensers on and am definitely getting a better spark but the left cylinder is still not firing. Going to try cleaning out that carb again. Any other suggestions?
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Update: pulled the left carb off to clean it and noticed it was dry. Followed the problem and found the fuel filter had broken and clogged the fuel line. And noticed the way the fuel line was routed, the fuel would not flow. Going to fix these issues now and will post back when it's running hopefully.
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Update: pulled the left carb off to clean it and noticed it was dry. Followed the problem and found the fuel filter had broken and clogged the fuel line. And noticed the way the fuel line was routed, the fuel would not flow. Going to fix these issues now and will post back when it's running hopefully.
Progress! I once bought a non running T and found it had two problems. One was a partially plugged idle jet and the other was the power jumper between the coils had a bare spot that would rub on the frame intermittently. Both on the same cylinder and the story was that it had stumped every one that tried to fix it. It was a good deal at a hundred bucks, around’82. I didn’t find the coil wire rub until I was parting it out. Thanks for the update!
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When are you going to post a picture of your T ? :popcorn:
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(https://i.ibb.co/yYR732J/20231111-054130.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYR732J)
When are you going to post a picture of your T ? :popcorn:
Going to put some stock bars on it and get the seat redone!
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looks better than my T did !
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UPDATE!: I cleaned that broken filter out of the tank and replaced the fuel lines and she started up super easy! Took her for a spin around the block and this thing rips! I need to restore my front brake caliper and for some reason the clutch wasnt working.
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Think about upgrading the caliper? you can substitute a 4 piston caliper with an adapter.
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want to upgrade the caliper?
(https://i.ibb.co/BzFD3Nw/850T-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BzFD3Nw)
Beauty! And I would like to restore the stock one if I can. It might be too far gone.
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Beauty! And I would like to restore the stock one if I can. It might be too far gone.
Stock caliper parts are available. Clean the castings. Replace the pucks and the seals and you have a caliper that is is good as new.
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F08's are available and you can also get a F09 reproduction caliper.
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F08's are available and you can also get a F09 reproduction caliper.
Puck and seals are the only wearing parts.
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Brake-Related-Parts/Brembo-F08-Caliper-Rebuild-Kit-Special-black-pins/
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The only thing salvageable on my T was the master cylinder. The 850T comes with a 15mm master which is huge for a single 2 piston caliper. I tried a few different brake set ups. Here is the previous set up.
(https://i.ibb.co/80QPqj6/20161202-172940.jpg) (https://ibb.co/80QPqj6)
Brembo B34 caliper, stainless line, guzzipower caliper adapter. The EBC stainless rotor is pretty, but the stock cast iron unit is better if in good shape. Works well.
the 15mm master is big enough to support any pair of 4 piston or 6 piston calipers you would want to throw at it.
here is my current set up.
(https://i.ibb.co/VLDgy6Z/850-T-13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VLDgy6Z)
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(https://i.ibb.co/HBnVzPC/20231230-135836.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HBnVzPC)
Do you all think this oil leak is coming from the oil pan seal?
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(https://i.ibb.co/HBnVzPC/20231230-135836.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HBnVzPC)
Do you all think this oil leak is coming from the oil pan seal?
Looks like it's from the bell housing. Give it a sniff to see if it's transmission or engine. Seals, gaskets, vent tube hose, etcetera could be the source. If it is in the bell housing it's transmission removal to fix. But first check that a breather hose isn't cracked and leaking down thru the housing.
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Check by smell if it’s engine oil or transmission oil. Engine oil will leak from cam plug, rear main seal etc. gear oil can be identified by its odor and will come from oil seals either on the shafts or the clutch pushrod. How much is coming out?
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Check by smell if it’s engine oil or transmission oil. Engine oil will leak from cam plug, rear main seal etc. gear oil can be identified by its odor and will come from oil seals either on the shafts or the clutch pushrod. How much is coming out?
A decent amount. I wiped it clean and then took the picture above after a minute or two.
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Check by smell if it’s engine oil or transmission oil. Engine oil will leak from cam plug, rear main seal etc. gear oil can be identified by its odor and will come from oil seals either on the shafts or the clutch pushrod. How much is coming out?
Also it's hard to tell but I believe it's engine oil.
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Also it's hard to tell but I believe it's engine oil.
First check that the breather hose coming out the top of the engine isn't leaking into the bell housing and dripping out the bottom.
If not then you get to pull the transmission and address all the internals. Might as well do both main seals as well as the other problem areas while in there. I lift the bike off the engine / transmission assembly. Then split the two. It's easier for me to address clutch reinstallation with the engine on its face. Others crab the frame, which didn't work well for me. I built a copy of the factory engine support and installed a pair of come-along hoists from the ceiling to lift / lower the frame off the engine.
(https://i.ibb.co/JRTrrX5/20190815-103435.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRTrrX5)
It's a V11, but the T3 is done the same way.
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First check that the breather hose coming out the top of the engine isn't leaking into the bell housing and dripping out the bottom.
If not then you get to pull the transmission and address all the internals. Might as well do both main seals as well as the other problem areas while in there. I lift the bike off the engine / transmission assembly. Then split the two. It's easier for me to address clutch reinstallation with the engine on its face. Others crab the frame, which didn't work well for me. I built a copy of the factory engine support and installed a pair of come-along hoists from the ceiling to lift / lower the frame off the engine.
(https://i.ibb.co/JRTrrX5/20190815-103435.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRTrrX5)
It's a V11, but the T3 is done the same way.
Definitely was not looking forward to this answer... :(
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Maybe you'll get lucky and find the 48 year old breather hose is cracked and dribbling back thru the bell housing. That's just a "remove the tank and inspect" job.
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Maybe you'll get lucky and find the 23 year old breather hose is cracked and dribbling back thru the bell housing. That's just a "remove the tank and inspect" job.
Fingers crossed. I will post an update later today or tomorrow, happy new years as well!
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If you’re lucky it’s the clamp on the large breather hose coming out of the top of the engine needing tightening the oil runs down the sides of the spigot and follows the back of the engine case to come out the rectangle hole. If you’re lucky…
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Is this the hose in question? If so it is cracked but I am still confused on how oil would end up coming out near the oil pan.
(https://i.ibb.co/RhcnN9Z/20240102-175423.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RhcnN9Z)
anonymous image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
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(https://i.ibb.co/rHbrdJM/Screenshot-20240102-191318-Adobe-Acrobat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rHbrdJM)
Hose #37 can crack and drool oil over the attached breather manifold. It then passes through the bell housing and out the bottom.
(Or possibly #39)
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(https://i.ibb.co/rHbrdJM/Screenshot-20240102-191318-Adobe-Acrobat.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rHbrdJM)
Hose #37 can crack and drool oil over the attached breather manifold. It then passes through the bell housing and out the bottom.
(Or possibly #39)
Wot he said ^^^^ the gasket #2 as well , but that’s under the flywheel so it’s renewed at a clutch change. The hose #37 is about the only thing that can be leak fixed without engine/transmission separation.
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The engine seals on that old nail are as hard as Chinese arithmetic by now. If they aren't leaking like crazy now, they will be in a few miles. do yourself a favor and change them out. Front main, rear main, front and rear gearbox, and inside and outside rear drive seals. Basically all the rotating shaft seals. Then do the forks... :evil:
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Ahh. I see. I will give these a look. Have a crazy January but I will start tinkering!
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If you are going to do the rear main seal, it might be a good time to replace the clutch.
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Actually, getting the engine and transmission out of the frame isn't too bad. Look up "crabbing the frame" for some tips. You basically block up the motor and lift the frame off it, rather than wrestle the motor out of the frame.
And- in the picture above- hose #37 is oriented vertically- it comes UP out of the bell housing.
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Actually, getting the engine and transmission out of the frame isn't too bad. Look up "crabbing the frame" for some tips. You basically block up the motor and lift the frame off it, rather than wrestle the motor out of the frame.
And- in the picture above- hose #37 is oriented vertically- it comes UP out of the bell housing.
Would it be okay to make my own hose?
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Would it be okay to make my own hose?
you can but it i dont remember if its an odd size
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When I worked in a NAPA store we made hydraulic hoses but weren't permitted to make brake hoses. I don't know if it was due to state regs or corporate policy, we didn't even stock those parts.
kk
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On a separate note, I also noticed on my first ride that the speedo was not working. Is there a common fix for this issue? Rpm Gauge works.
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Is this the hose in question? If so it is cracked but I am still confused on how oil would end up coming out near the oil pan.
(https://i.ibb.co/RhcnN9Z/20240102-175423.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RhcnN9Z)
anonymous image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
Nope that’s #47…the exit to air …thicker hose then the other two…exits down to the ground…on a Vert you can run it out to below the rear axle
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Would it be okay to make my own hose?
NAPA, or most any car parts have fuel injection line etc to choose from..
There is a check ball valve sitting in a hose in the top of the engine case that you want to make sure is loose and working…my breather box had a secondary flapper doing the same job..per Guzziology you disarm the flapper in the breather box to depend on just the check ball valve.. forget which version is the newest
Don’t fix anything yet if it’s not broken..you’re pulling it together! Don’t let the naked guzzi fotos scare you.. :thumb:
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On a separate note, I also noticed on my first ride that the speedo was not working. Is there a common fix for this issue? Rpm Gauge works.
Make sure both ends are snug…a half turn tighter fixed mine. Do not remove the transmission end for now…there’s some bits in there I forget about but check the diagrams maintenance manuals
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Make sure both ends are snug…a half turn tighter fixed mine. Do not remove the transmission end for now…there’s some bits in there I forget about but check the diagrams maintenance manuals
I'm sorry both ends of what?
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I'm sorry both ends of what?
Speedometer cable
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Speedometer cable
Oh.. duh haha Tha k you
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ok moving along full steam ahead, but a new problem has presented itself. the headlight works with both regular and high beams but none of the turn signals nor brake light is working. bulbs seem to be fine.
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Update:
Flasher relay was garbaged so I installed a new one and still nothing.
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Update:
Flasher relay was garbaged so I installed a new one and still nothing.
If you installed a new thermal flasher (little metal can), there's a good chance it's bad right out of the box. Every one I bought a few years ago was bad, switched to electronic flashers from Amazon.
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If you installed a new thermal flasher (little metal can), there's a good chance it's bad right out of the box. Every one I bought a few years ago was bad, switched to electronic flashers from Amazon.
I got one of the black box ones.
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Having trouble finding what fuses I will need. Ordered a new fuse box yesterday because mine was all corroded
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I got one of the black box ones.
The "black box ones" have about a 50% good/bad rate in my experience. This is the one I use, haven't received a bad one yet. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MJGC28B
Having trouble finding what fuses I will need. Ordered a new fuse box yesterday because mine was all corroded
If you are looking for the original style fuses, they are "GBC" type. Used on numerous European autos (Mercedes used them into the '90s). https://www.amazon.com/50Pcs-European-Automotive-Assortment-Bakelite/dp/B07F2739HM
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Those fuses usually can be found at auto parts places being called VW fuses. They have a habit of buildup on the ends so I periodically rotate them without taking them out of their clips.
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I get my bullet/torpedo fuses on amazon.
you can buy a lifetime supply!
https://www.bing.com/shop?q=weider+200+pcs+car+fuses+european+automotive+fuse+assortment+kit+5a+8a+10a+16a+25a+for+european+classic+cars+old+style&FORM=SHOPPA&originIGUID=7E0B19E2A7B54C0BAE5B24E811BA52B7 (https://www.bing.com/shop?q=weider+200+pcs+car+fuses+european+automotive+fuse+assortment+kit+5a+8a+10a+16a+25a+for+european+classic+cars+old+style&FORM=SHOPPA&originIGUID=7E0B19E2A7B54C0BAE5B24E811BA52B7)
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Thank you for the replies I will report back!
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Those fuses usually can be found at auto parts places being called VW fuses. They have a habit of buildup on the ends so I periodically rotate them without taking them out of their clips.
The green ones?
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Another source for the fuses (and much more):
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_tonti_850_t.html
An 850-T should have six 16 amp fuses, which are usually red.
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O'Reillys has those in stock, at least in my local store. I was surprised to see them when I was getting some "regular" fuses for my RV. I hadn't seen one of those since I had my R75/6. :grin:
kk
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Awesome! Thank you.
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Still no luck w new flasher, fuse box and fuses
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Still no luck w new flasher, fuse box and fuses
Time to go through every connection on the bike, making sure they're clean and tight, all of the ground points as well.
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So I installed a new main harness which fixed the tail light problem but now my head light is not working. Does anyone know where this wire should be?
(https://i.ibb.co/sy2d43B/Screenshot-20240324-155637-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sy2d43B)
(https://i.ibb.co/mCG47Rp/Screenshot-20240324-155632-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCG47Rp)
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So I installed a new main harness which fixed the tail light problem but now my head light is not working. Does anyone know where this wire should be?
(https://i.ibb.co/sy2d43B/Screenshot-20240324-155637-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sy2d43B)
(https://i.ibb.co/mCG47Rp/Screenshot-20240324-155632-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCG47Rp)
Just guessing, but blue is used for the charge warning light circuit. If that's what it is, then it connects at the diode board/rectifier.
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Update. I got the new harness installed and it fixed my problem! Only my headlight worked before I installed it. Now I have tail light dash lights and turn signals, however...... now I don't have a headlight? Any suggestions on what to look for?
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Take a multi-meter and check for power to the headlight. Work your way back from there. Could be corrosion in the ignition switch if you still have the hem one. Check power in/out of the switch. The oem ignition switch can have corrosion and/or bakelite build up on the contacts. Be very careful when prying up on the metal tangs that squeeze/hold the switch together.