Author Topic: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem  (Read 2280 times)

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2022, 11:11:47 AM »
Update: both injectors cleaned and checked.
both working well

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C2ckhYEeOft31rkKn43g3VxqUZJy_wH8/view?usp=sharing (Video of injectors)

Still bike stalling


Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2022, 12:53:53 PM »
I’ll bet my aching arse that it’s not a valve, but you ask how COULD it be possible ?
#1
Minuscule bend in the stem and the spring does not close it at low revs, at high(er) revs the kinetic energy of the moving valve effectively slams it against the seat.
#2
Manufacturing tolerances have allowed too tight a fit of the stem in the guide.
#3
At some point in the past, the valve has tangled.

It’s all BS though, because it idles ok for too long before the anomaly manifests, just a thought experiment.

That stutter on the point of stall really sounds like one pot laying down, but even that reasoning fails because you say it will (rather surprisingly) idle on one good pot.

A defective fuel pump would fail under high demand, not low.
A dying cylinder would not kill the whole thing after the revelation about being able to idle on one.
Is your bike retarding enough in the ignition timing at low revs ? (Do the timing light test.)

When your bike is staggering at close to stall, will a VERY small throttle application save it ?
It’s got me rooted… :sad:

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2022, 01:03:43 PM »
I just noticed that as the bike is idling, the stuttering does not slow the rpm at all, the beat is steady and the tach is also.
The bike is idling at the same speed when it dies as it is just before.
Is your cam position sensor gapped correctly and secure and the supply harness/plug all ok ?…(No contaminant present.)
I REALLY want the timing light test done, preferably with two lights simultaneously. Buy one and borrow one.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 01:33:34 PM by Huzo »

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2022, 01:21:15 PM »
Fuel..?
I’m reminded of what a two stroke lawn mower does after you’ve turned the fuel off and are waiting for it to run out and stop.
They get to the point of a very low idle and give that bang…bang…bang bang….bang sort of stuttering beat to the firing, just before stopping.
I cannot explain though, why a struggling fuel pump or supply issue, would only manifest at low demand settings.

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2022, 01:21:15 PM »

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2022, 01:38:02 PM »
Fuel..?
I’m reminded of what a two stroke lawn mower does after you’ve turned the fuel off and are waiting for it to run out and stop.
They get to the point of a very low idle and give that bang…bang…bang bang….bang sort of stuttering beat to the firing, just before stopping.
I cannot explain though, why a struggling fuel pump or supply issue, would only manifest at low demand settings.

Thanks for all the messages:

Two points

a) I am really interested in doing the timing light test, however i've never done it before. could you please explain me how or share any video so i can understand what to check?

b) I remembered also when cutting the fuel of the outboard engines , however i think it was a different noise and kinda the whole engine failing at the same time maybe?

I am waiting for the new fuel filter, i'll replace the other one in case there's something wrong there.

Thanks

Fede

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2022, 01:43:01 PM »
Also, what tells the injectors WHEN to fire…?

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2022, 01:49:10 PM »
Thanks for all the messages:

Two points

a) I am really interested in doing the timing light test, however i've never done it before. could you please explain me how or share any video so i can understand what to check?

b) I remembered also when cutting the fuel of the outboard engines , however i think it was a different noise and kinda the whole engine failing at the same time maybe?

I am waiting for the new fuel filter, i'll replace the other one in case there's something wrong there.

Thanks

Fede
I am thinking if there is a stray or mis timed spark, you will see the erratic nature of the flash on the light, coinciding with the stagger in the beat.

Are you getting excessive noise from your camchain ?
Wondering if there’s a fluctuation in the cam timing at low rpm allowing the cam timing to jump around.
Do the injectors take their commands from the cam position sensor ?
Again, timing light…. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2022, 02:02:29 PM »
I am really interested in doing the timing light test, however i've never done it before. could you please explain me how or share any video so i can understand what to check?
Here’s a video I found on the topic. https://youtu.be/563BXGixEUA
You’ll see how it’s possible to tell if your timing is leaping around and becoming inaccurate, also if the ignition pulse is failing intermittently, the light will fluctuate with the miss in the idle beat.
At least that’s the plan….

I did get a bit hazy as to why he sets the timing @ 20 deg BTDC @ idle revs, but that’s not our concern here.
Notice how the distributor is up against the stop almost, but anyway that’s not our business.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 02:07:56 PM by Huzo »

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2022, 03:47:22 PM »
I am thinking if there is a stray or mis timed spark, you will see the erratic nature of the flash on the light, coinciding with the stagger in the beat.

Are you getting excessive noise from your camchain ?
Wondering if there’s a fluctuation in the cam timing at low rpm allowing the cam timing to jump around.
Do the injectors take their commands from the cam position sensor ?
Again, timing light…. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Could you please tell me where is the cam position sensor located so I can check it? I am looking at the Workshop Manual but i am not able to find it. I'll check that is matching the specs.

I understood perfectly with the attached video, just wondering:

if bike idling rpms are around 1200. This means 20 revs per second and so 10 lights per second? Is it normal to appreciate the difference in the blinking just by eye? Maybe this is a silly question but gives an idea of my mechanical knowledge

Thanks!

Fede


Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2022, 03:59:20 PM »
Could you please tell me where is the cam position sensor located so I can check it? I am looking at the Workshop Manual but i am not able to find it. I'll check that is matching the specs.

I understood perfectly with the attached video, just wondering:

if bike idling rpms are around 1200. This means 20 revs per second and so 10 lights per second? Is it normal to appreciate the difference in the blinking just by eye? Maybe this is a silly question but gives an idea of my mechanical knowledge

Thanks!

Fede
That reasoning is sound regarding the frequency of the flash.
10 per second is correct, I think you will perceive it.
Someone else better than me will help you with the location of the sensor on your bike.
Also, I expect any half decent timing light will do.

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2022, 04:08:12 PM »
Can i go for a ride with the inline light on?  :tongue: :grin:

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2022, 04:29:04 PM »
Can i go for a ride with the inline light on?  :tongue: :grin:
I can see no reason not to. All it’s doing is sensing the pulse in the wire and switching on the lamp.

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2022, 12:40:02 AM »
I’m assured by Pete Roper that the bike has been at best poorly tuned and at worst, had it’s TB’s molested. He suggests that the stuttering that we witness, is actually spitting back through a badly ”adjusted” TB.
Also the suggestion is that the plug cap or caps are maggoted.

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2022, 02:42:20 AM »
I’m assured by Pete Roper that the bike has been at best poorly tuned and at worst, had it’s TB’s molested. He suggests that the stuttering that we witness, is actually spitting back through a badly ”adjusted” TB.
Also the suggestion is that the plug cap or caps are maggoted.

The bike indeed has the sacred screw modified and set back to position by matching the yellow paint. I cannot tell if it was previous owner or bad mechanic who did the mess.

I bought recently a  Morgan Carbtune so i'll check the TB balance on my own despite dealer service.

Is the sacred screw so critical that being 1/8 of turn out of position is making the bike idling poorly? I could understand that maybe combustion is not perfect, but is it possible to stall the bike for that reason?

Unfortunately I can't afford a new TB pair, they cost more than 1500 euros. So i'll have to run out of possible solutions.

Thanks

Fede



Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2022, 05:27:48 AM »
Here’s as much as I can confidently claim to be true.
The molesting of the screw does more than just throw the TB’s out of sync. That TB has to have the butterfly at the correct angle, to flow the correct amount of air at a certain TPS setting. Simply having them both equal is not the be all and end all. However, if a sacred screw has not been played with, you can tell because the paint bond is not broken.
Even if we take a leap of faith and say that the screw is back where it should be, it’s probably well worth building or obtaining a manometer and ensure the TB’s are synced.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 05:31:43 AM by Huzo »

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2022, 05:41:46 AM »
motomoda.roper@gmail.com
Is Pete Roper’s address, if you e mail him he’ll have some good info for you.

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2022, 01:13:13 PM »
Some updates:

I spoke with peter and he gently replied to me basically that i am toasted. No way to set the bike with no sacred or linked arm.

As I never give up until I am 100% cooked I decided to give it a try on my own.

This is what I did:

This is what I did:
I matched as best as I could all the remaining yellow paint marks on the link arm and throttle stop.
Balanced the TB's at 2500-3500 RPM.
After that I reseted the TPS.
I reached a point that the bike was idling very low even with bypass screws totally open at throttle stop, so I adjusted 1/8 of the throttle stop and reset the TPS again.
After realizing that the bike was idling better, I fine tuned the Idling RPMs and Balance at 1150rpm +- 50.
I checked this 3 or 4 times after cooling the engine a couple of times until I was happy.

After that I did two 40 minute rides, and so far these are my results:
a) No stalling at idling during the ride.
b) Rpms are not bouncing back and forth
c) Bike is Vibrating much less, so I can use my mirrors now.
d) Throttle response is crisp the whole range.

I'll keep riding this week to see if it's not stalling anymore.

Some videos below:

TB balance @2000/3000 rpm

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oZ5NW6rMcvpH5tRVTwB8GQYjas0kq-KZ/view?usp=share_link

Riding the bike around the city.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oYtlvcBZha1G8GZtK7zOB5FyQg40tlqB/view?usp=share_link


Does it make any sense to check with a laser thermometer the outtake temperature as a double check?

thanks

Fede

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2022, 03:12:16 PM »
I’d be more inclined to just ride it (heart in mouth) and see if and problem is gone under all conditions. It will take some time to not keep casually blipping the throttle in anticipation of it stalling, but time will tell.
Maybe pull the plugs and check the colour, but riding is the way to go.

Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2023, 02:52:10 PM »
UPDATE: Ok so after a couple of rides I experienced only one stall overall, i would say not so bad overall..

Unfortunately after speaking with Pete Roper, telling me that the bike will never run well again made me think again about this thing regarding sacred and linkrod..

After a couple of days I decided to purchase a second hand TB set. Its looking in good condition with proper yellow paint in the threads, I'll upload some pictures so you can give me any opinion about this.

Any advice about how to proceed on the swap would be nice as well. I can see that this set has two sacred and mine only one in left side.. is it right model?

Thanks a lot

Fede






Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2023, 03:57:44 PM »
I'd use a round feeler gauge and make your own the same. Can't get any better... Check TPS on the new set in case they are for a model that has manual reset. Usually V7's here had 1 screw and no screw on opposit side. Just the arm for setting other side.
It looks like the pair are manual adjust TPS to me. From what model?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 04:04:26 PM by guzzisteve »
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2023, 04:30:30 PM »
Míght be from a breva maybe? This is all the information that I have:


Is there a manual reset for tps? Every step forward I take I am going twice backwards. Lol

Thanks

Fede

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2023, 04:44:36 PM »
If it looks the same as yours(TPS) I'd use it. It looked to be a curved adjustable slot for mounting. I thought they just had a hole.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2023, 01:12:58 AM »
If it looks the same as yours(TPS) I'd use it. It looked to be a curved adjustable slot for mounting. I thought they just had a hole.

maybe this photo explains better, looks like same

thanks

fede


Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2023, 08:33:18 AM »
Rock & Roll, I'd still get the measurements & set the ones on your bike identical to the ones you bought. Same gap for butterflys.
While you have a chance to do it, then you have an extra set. OR ride it first to see if glitch is gone. Then you know what was wrong.
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2023, 08:59:49 AM »
Would you give me any good advice to where to start dissembling the bike?

I just hope I don’t need to dissemble the whole bike.

Thanks

Fede

Offline Huzo

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2023, 02:14:19 PM »
maybe this photo explains better, looks like same

thanks

fede


They are un molested.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2023, 05:18:48 PM »
To swap out the TB's easily, Take off tank, battery and whatever inthe way to move airbox back a few inches. Then undo all the bands on the rubbers for & aft of TB's. Take out 3 manifold bolts. Use heat gun to warm rubbers cause they have to come off. Move airbox back if you need more room. I would unplug injectors or take them out to be sure no damage happens. 2 screws under rail or on top hold bodies, each TB has 2. Have to unscrew the throttle cables too, good luck.
Pages 25 & 50 in parts book.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2023, 07:29:53 PM by guzzisteve »
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Offline fedeskiff

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Re: V7 Classic - troubleshooting Idling strange problem
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2023, 02:22:09 PM »
Check this.. very very interesting. Just bought another set of TB.
One seems to be much more closed than the other one. Both of them are showing yellow marks still in place.

Which one to trust?






One seems to be 0.13mm and the other it’s not even fitting 0.10mm.

 

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