Author Topic: new guy with question  (Read 11432 times)

guzziv7fan

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new guy with question
« on: January 11, 2015, 12:29:23 PM »
I'm an older retired guy new to Moto Guzzi. Picked up a V7 because of the light weight and easy for me to move around.

Have a question about the transmission.

Reminds me of the old Shovelhead 4 speed transmission in that it can be sticky downshifting which is easily compensated for with the old slip the clutch get the shifting barrel moving trick. No problem for me at all since I cut my teeth on this old stuff. One thing about this old design they shift like butter once they break in.

Last year I switch my 72 Glide to that 20-50 full syn 3 stuff. Have noticed the transmission shifts much better then with 90 weight. No longer missing downshifts or up shifts when cold or otherwise. Makes a little more noise is all with less of a butter feeling when shifiting. While running/turning it's just as before, sound wise to my failing ears, hmmmmm.

Any thoughts on using 20-50 fully syn 3 in the V7 transmission? Wonder if it would allow that shifting drum to continue spinning up easier on the down shifts. I'm concern about pressure on the gears with motor oils but that appears to not be an issue with any of the HD's at this point. Did some research and the hardening process on the HD transmission didn't change when they went to the syn3 oils.

This V7 sure is a fun bike to ride The Glide sits these days.

Just also picked up a 73 Eldorado and plan on restoring. Got a deal on it, needs a clutch and a few other things. Cosmetics on the bike are damn near pristine. Original owners boy sold it to me in an estate sale. It was down the street from me. Just rolled it down to my house along with a few boxes of extra stuff. I've known of this bike since it was new. So no mystery on the history.

Thanks in advance on this oil question with the trans. Just don't want to do something stupid with a new bike.







Offline Howard R

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2015, 12:45:42 PM »
Personally, I wouldn't use engine oil in any separate trans or rear drive.  I have found Redline Shockproof Heavy to be the best stuff going for both applications, even seems to reduce running temperature a little.  You will find the transmission (and pretty much everything else) works better as it gets broken in.  (Guzzis take about 15k miles. ;D) 

As to the Eldo, I wouldn't even try turning that engine over by hand (with a wrench on the crank nut) before pulling the heads to inspect the bores.  Then keep right on going when you find the chrome flaking off the cylinder walls.  Gilardoni or nikasil replating if the originals measure OK are the most popular replacement options.  Lots of $$$ but you'll be once-and-done for the next few hundred thousand miles.  Others who know far more than I on this subject will be along shortly.

Welcome to the Guzzi addiction!

Howard
Littlestown, PA  USA

1996 Sport 1100
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dilligaf

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2015, 12:53:44 PM »
Welcome to the group.  If you haven't already you may want to consider joining the MG National Owners Club.  http://www.mgnoc.com/index.html

 ;-T What Howard said regarding engine oil in the transmission.  Yes, I am a wear that many motorcycles share same oil for the engine and transmission, however these do not.  :BEER:
Matt

Offline pehayes

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2015, 02:39:36 PM »
And I recommend you enroll in the LoopFrame discussion group over on Yahoo for precise information about your Eldorado.

Also, spend the next several months reading everything on Greg Bender's site:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe.html

Patrick Hayes
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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2015, 02:39:36 PM »

Online Perazzimx14

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2015, 02:42:20 PM »
Search "Chrome plated cylinders" before you even try and turn the Eldo over.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

Online Kev m

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Re:
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2015, 02:48:48 PM »
I use SYN3 or AMSOIL V-twin, or M1 V-twin 20/50 in both the motors and the separate primary chain/transmissions of my Sporty and Buell.

I'm no oil engineer, but was told by one that motor and gear oils are rated differently and the 20-50 may not be all the different from some of the lighter gear oils.

That said MG specification for gear oil are a bit different from Harleys. My notes say:

85W90 in the transmission 1L
85W140 in the rear 170 mL

AND specifically, they already are recommending a high quality synthetic in those viscosities (ENI/AGIP).

So it sounds a bit more like apples and oranges and I wouldn't use the SYN3.

Now a note about shifting the smallblock transmission.

FIRST thing to check if it sticks a bit is CLUTCH ADJUSTMENT.

There isn't a lot of throw in the clutch lever and too much freeplay means that it will drag/not fully disengage and that can make shifting (especially 1-N or N-1 a bit difficult).

Make sure the clutch is fully releasing when you pull the lever to the bar.

Then again these dry clutch transmissions do sometimes need a little drag when shifting at a dead stop (N-1). But then a quick partial release of the clutch should be enough to snick it into gear.

Look at that before blaming fluids.

Lastly, yes, they do break in after a couple thousand miles and get smoother, but the clutch adjustment could still make em stick again.
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Online Kev m

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Re: Re: new guy with question
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2015, 03:25:53 PM »
Engine oil and transmission oil are in fact different , Engine oil is designed to withstand heat and pressure , transmission oil is designed to deal with the shearing forces created by the gears meshing . So , while a 50 W engine oil may be similar to a 90 W gear oil in viscosity , they are engineered for different purposes . Would you run transmission oil in your engine ?

  Dusty

 
Well it's not like there aren't millions of motorcycles designed to run one fluid in the motor and gearbox. I have to think the engineers for those bikes took that into account when they came up with fluid specs.

That said, Guzzi isn't one of them....
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2015, 03:29:16 PM »
Welcome to the board.
Others have mentioned the problems with chrome bores. I have an 82 I have been restoring, the cost i starting to mount up
$700 for a pair of new Nikasil cylinders is quite cheap if you look at the cost of restoring other old bikes.
$120 for a new set of stainless spokes
$120 for a refurbished universal
Im sure there will be a few more hundred but in the end I will have a bike I can enjoy for years.
72 Eldorado
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76 Convert

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Offline Guido Valvole

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2015, 03:59:06 PM »
I'm presuming your V7 is the new one, smallblock, and not the original 700cc loopframe. If so, I have a couple of its ancestors. Clutch adjustment is critical, both at the hand lever and especially at the lever at the back of the transmission. That's a fiddly and hard to reach screw and locknut adjustment and a little movement of the nut can make a big difference in shifting. It's possible to set it up so shifting is smooth and positive and the real neutral is readily available when needed. Or the trans can be klunky and notchy and have neutrals everywhere except where and when you want one.

Regarding Redline - I put that in both the V50II (original gaskets) and the Monza (trans rebuilt after the mainshaft broke and took the 3rd gear gearset with it.) V50 regularly pukes it out the old-style stock breather on the top of the gearbox but has only sporadically had seeps from the front, clutch pushrod seal or front bearing. Monza was fine for a few years and then started marking driveway territory with increasingly large amounts of pink milkshake. Figuring it was the clutch pushrod seal, I took the bike apart (yet again…) and found it was really the seal behind the bearing. Pushrod seal is easy if tedious, other seal is ugly. Replaced, put it back together, Redline in, still leaked. Flushed that and used 85w140 dino oil as per Guzziology and no problems since.

But if the new ones are made for synthetic oil, I'd assume the gaskets and seals were, too.
cr
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Re: Re: Re: new guy with question
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 04:01:28 PM »
That was my point , AND  would you run trans oil in the motor ? Something tells me the warranty won't cover either.



  Dusty
I'm saying it depends on the oil and the spec, but I wouldn't on the Guzzi cause it's not the spec...

But you could argue that's what I'm doing on literally all our other bikes...
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Online centauro

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 04:39:29 PM »
My old 1982 Peugeot 505 station wagon specified 1 liter of 10W-40 engine oil in its 5-speed manual transmission. I never had a problem shifting with that car; in fact, it was one of the better manual gearboxes among the cars that I have had. But, then again, the car was French and had French made gears inside.....
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Vasco DG

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2015, 05:57:49 PM »
If this is a *New* as in brand new V7 then the boxes do take a while to break in and can be reluctant changers at first. Also make sure your clutch is adjusted correctly. I wouldn't run 20/50. Just use a 75/90 in the gearbox and you may well find that simply changing the oil will greatly improve things. Bevelbox definitely needs 85/140.

Pete

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Re:
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2015, 06:48:28 PM »
Seriously, 7000 miles later mine was feeling that way and I needed just an RCH of a clutch adjustment.
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Offline neverquit

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2015, 08:31:06 PM »
A lighter than spec oil may make the transmission shift a little easier, at least for a short while.  But doing so will increase the wear on the gears dramatically.  The thinner oil doesn't have the film strength to maintain a coat of lubricant between the gear teeth as they mesh, the forces are too great and there will be some metal to metal contact.

If light oil were adequate, they would recommend it.  They have their reasons for specifying a heavier oil.

Offline Muzz

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 03:02:43 AM »
Like others, I am assuming that you have the new smallblock V7.

There is a set of helical cut gears which transmit the drive from the motor to the box, hence I believe the requirement to use an EP gear oil. The gears in the box itself are all straight cut.

I used Redline but am now using Penrite 75/90 synthetic in the Breva. Gears go through nicely. As others have said already, clutch adjustment is critical.
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
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Online Perazzimx14

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 12:11:01 PM »
Thanks guys, it needs miles for sure. Sort of like stone washing a pair of levis.

Hmmmmm,?????? no forget that.





MG cycles, Harpers Moto Guzzi and others have direct replacement kits. It's the best most cost effective way to go.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 12:25:07 PM »
So who treated the jugs for you? I may need to go that route.

First thing to do, would be to check what cylinders are on it already. More than one person has pulled a head only to find that they really didn't need to. Just remove a sparkplug, insert a "pencil magnet" and touch the cylinder wall. Zero attraction = chrome, some attraction = Nikasil, strong attraction = iron liners. Gilardonis will have the name cast in near the cylinder base.

Then, if you need to, buy either the kits sold by Mark @ Moto Guzzi Classics:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOTO-GUZZI-NEW-PISTON-AND-CYLINDER-SET-83-5MM-850CC-/221618528854?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33997e6256

or Gilardonis from MG Cycle or Harper's.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_129&products_id=2129
Charlie

Online bmc5733946

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 12:43:04 PM »
Just a few words of caution about small block clutches: they are single plate, adjustment is critical, never let one slip once engaged, parts are expensive and difficult if not impossible to find. Here's my sad story; for my wife to have an easier time with the clutch lever on our 2004 Breva I installed an adjustable lever that let the lever sit closer to the handle bar thus reducing grip distance, this was a poor choice, apparently the clutch started slipped, I was not aware/told. Spring of 2014 I rode it across town to warm up for an oil change etc. and wasn't sure I was going to make it the 8 miles home. The small block clutch surfaces are basically not machinable. The pressure plate/flywheel is readily available, the clutch friction plate is also, the ring gear/clutch cover/friction surface is quite a bit harder to find. I have since found two used ones and will select the best one to use after their arrival.

Do not let that small block clutch slip!!!!

Brian
1989 MILLE GT 
2004 BREVA 750     
1975  Convert

Online Perazzimx14

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 02:14:56 PM »
Thanks much for that great information. Need to find my little telescopic magnet. Found out critters chewed up the wire harness under the tank. RATS, bastards.

Todd Greg Bender from thisoldtractor.com sells all the wiring components you need from single fuses to complete 100% correct length and color coded harnesses. He also has color wiring diagrams on his site for you to use.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 04:56:48 AM by Perazzimx14 »
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 04:15:11 PM »
Todd Greg Bender from thisoldtractor.com sells all the wiring components you need from single fuses to complete 100% correct length and color coded harnesses. He also has color wiring diagrams on his site for you to use.

Fixed it for you.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_loop.html
Charlie

Offline leafman60

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2015, 04:49:11 PM »
I'll just stick to the engineering profile in the handbook on oil recommendations. These companies do a great deal of research and testing on this type stuff for good reason.

By the way I did an oil change on the glide and put in the 10-60. Pulled the plugs and those suckers are bone dry. Have always had trouble with the Syn 3 pushing through the rings, not the case with this 10-60. It appears to hold up better in that high heat environment that a shovel loves. Have turn a couple other shovel owners on to it here. Talked to the local NAPA owner and he is going to stock it for us. He rides a BMW and switched to it.

I remember years ago we all ran straight HD heavy 60 weight oil in the shovels. Then it went to this syn3 20-50. I like the idea of a fully syn 10-60.

My experience is that the older machines that have lived on dino oil do not like synthetic. These machines have been prone to weeps and increased ring blow-by with the synthetic oils so I don't use it in my vintage bikes or transmissions.  If it works for you long term then fine.

My '78 Shovelhead has 110,000 miles on it and it has pretty much always bathed in 20-50 Castrol. I did switch to the three-piece oil rings when they were introduced in the 80's for the Evolution engines and my oil consumption, even today with all these miles, is minimal.

I have never used the Syn 3 in any of my several H-D transmissions. Regarding the Guzzi, I'd stick with the type of oil recommended by the factory.


.

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2015, 04:55:52 AM »
Fixed it for you.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_loop.html

I don't know what the heck I was thinking. I guess I shouldn't try and multi-task.

To the OP Greg is top shelf you will not be disappointed in his products and or knowledge.
It's the ones who've cracked that the light shines through!

Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2015, 01:46:25 PM »
Straight outa the gate with an "oil thread".

Kudos for the successful stealth infiltration. ~;

Todd.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 01:46:41 PM by cruzziguzzi »
Todd
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Offline Howard R

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 10:56:57 AM »
It is sort of a cliche' on a lot of motorcycle fora (including this one) that someone will ask "what oil should I use" and hilarity ensues, usually for many pages.  You know, everyone has their own opinion, and that other thing.  It's all for the most part good natured entertainment especially when roads are all covered with snow &/or salt for a large part of the "audience."

Howard
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 11:36:24 AM »
You need to simmer down a bit
Starting an Oil thread is kind of an inside joke.

Welcome to the forum
I am in the process of restoring a 72 Eldorado, there's lots of great advice here.

Cheers
Roy
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 11:38:01 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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76 Convert

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2015, 11:52:10 AM »

I'm just here to get some information mostly for my restoration job, few places on the net with Guzzi information on these Eldorado bikes.


The best two sources of information for your Eldo project are Greg Bender's thisoldtractor.com website and the Loopframe Guzzi group which I own and moderate: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Loopframe_Guzzi/info
Charlie

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: new guy with question
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2015, 02:48:24 PM »
Roy,

Was reading some of this stuff about lightening the flywheel? What are some thoughts on all that? I guess a few cranks have split in half? Would think taking weight off would change the character of the bike. Put some balancing into the Glide crank and have noticed the roll on throttle lacking going up hills. Little less vibs only on higher RPM's which I seldom visit. All for not really.
I don't intend to do anything that radical, the original owner rode 130,000 miles and told me it was a lovely bike to ride, I won't mess with it for a while at least.
Twin leading shoe front brakes, I have no intention of upgrading to a disk.
The jugs are new Giladonis, brand new with pistons.
Going to replace the big-end shells, just because I can and they are cheap.
I'm told they handle surprisingly well for a 72 bike, I'm sure the can't be as bad as the old Brit bikes I used to ride back in the 60s, someone else will have to comment on that. they sure look cool, that's a fact.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 02:54:36 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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76 Convert

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