Aero engine rescue

[barenekd]

Those heads don't have dual plugs,dual ignition is a must for a manned aircraft.

Not for homebuilts. You can use any engine you want, Model A Fords, Henderson 4s, Volkswagons, et al.
Bare

[oldbike54]

Not for homebuilts. You can use any engine you want, Model A Fords, Henderson 4s, Volkswagons, et al.
Bare

Remember those Triumph MC engine powered Gyrocopters ? Cut my teeth on Triumphs , do NOT want to fly in a rig with a Limey motor  :D
Dusty

[dibble]

Remember those Triumph MC engine powered Gyrocopters ? Cut my teeth on Triumphs , do NOT want to fly in a rig with a Limey motor  Cheesy
Dusty

Rolls-Royce Merlin?

[cpallen]

We could take up a collection to sweeten the deal a little. Paypal gifts anyone?

[oldbike54]

Rolls-Royce Merlin?

OK OK , I will give you that one , and maybe those English "Ford and Chevy" open wheel racing engines .  :D
Dusty

[Dogwalker]

[auzziguzzi]

The Ultralight has the heads mounted the opposite way round to the engine shown earlier in the thread. 

I assume the heads are symmetrical (not identical though) thereby allowing this kind of flexibility.

I'd like to see this engine in a lighter mini-Stelvio, too.   In Australia, a 650 variant would allow our learner riders into the fold (660cc limit for new riders).  Right now, there is no new Guzzi offering for them in Oz. 

Bring back the NTX650, I say.

John

[Chuck in Indiana]

The guy is supposed to send me pictures tonight. There's no computer. I would say it is a fair hill to climb to put it in the Lario.. but doable. Probably ;D

[Murray]

The Ultralight has the heads mounted the opposite way round to the engine shown earlier in the thread. 

I assume the heads are symmetrical (not identical though) thereby allowing this kind of flexibility.

From distant memory I think the hunters or a variation of them had a push pull setup with the Guzzi motors ie one at the front one at the rear so by rights there should also be a proper cam for them readily available.

[Chuck in Indiana]

From distant memory I think the hunters or a variation of them had a push pull setup with the Guzzi motors ie one at the front one at the rear so by rights there should also be a proper cam for them readily available.

Yeah, but they could all be the same rotation. <shrug> There's not a whole lot of info on them that I can find. This one is a pusher..

[lucky phil]

Not for homebuilts. You can use any engine you want, Model A Fords, Henderson 4s, Volkswagons, et al.
Bare

Its not about whats legal but whats senseable. There is a good reason why commercial aircraft have dual ignition and fuel systems.Only a fool would chance a single system.
Ciao 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Its not about whats legal but whats senseable. There is a good reason why commercial aircraft have dual ignition and fuel systems.Only a fool would chance a single system.
Ciao 

I was foolish with a VW conversion in Mouser (the yellow and green low wing in this thread) for several years. Flew all over the Midwest single ignition, but it was a magneto that could be inspected and maintained rigorously. <shrug> Since then, I've added a secondary ignition using a Dyna S and 10mm plugs.
I'd say flying single ignition is considerably less foolish than riding a motorcycle if you get right down to it.. ;D

[Unkept]

I was foolish with a VW conversion in Mouser (the yellow and green low wing in this thread) for several years. Flew all over the Midwest single ignition, but it was a magneto that could be inspected and maintained rigorously. <shrug> Since then, I've added a secondary ignition using a Dyna S and 10mm plugs.
I'd say flying single ignition is considerably less foolish than riding a motorcycle if you get right down to it.. ;D

 ;D

Did the gentlemen send you any pictures Chuck?

[Chuck in Indiana]

;D

Did the gentlemen send you any pictures Chuck?

Nope. I'm guessing that he's picture challenged.  ;D You'd think with a fish on the line, he'd be reeling... ;)

[jas67]

:+1 C'mon Chuck , be a hero .
Dusty

 :+1 :+1

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

It would be really cool if someone could get 3D laser scans of the heads and then go to a 3D print shop to get casting molds made.
They'd make some nice hot-rod heads for smallblocks!

[lucky phil]

I was foolish with a VW conversion in Mouser (the yellow and green low wing in this thread) for several years. Flew all over the Midwest single ignition, but it was a magneto that could be inspected and maintained rigorously. <shrug> Since then, I've added a secondary ignition using a Dyna S and 10mm plugs.
I'd say flying single ignition is considerably less foolish than riding a motorcycle if you get right down to it.. ;D

Well all I can say chuck after 38 years as a certifying engineer in the aviation industry is "better you than me".
Just out of interest chuck, why go to the dual ignition if safety is not a concern?
Ciao

[Murray]

Just out of interest chuck, why go to the dual ignition if safety is not a concern?
Ciao

Ignition systems have come a long way since the 1930's, unfortunately a lot of light aircraft motors haven't, the dual plugs also give a much cleaner burn aircraft engines normally been low revving and large capacity to create HP.

Anyway back to the motor the one mounted in the in the ultralight is a pusher but the one pictured from the Guzzi museum seems to be a puller (for the want of a term that doesn't amuse 15year old boys). Assuming they stick with the age old Guzzi tradition of keeping the exhaust valves in the maximum airflow So seems to be pretty fair bet there are two versions of the camshaft.

[Cheese]

;D

Did the gentlemen send you any pictures Chuck?

I suppose there may be more places in Indiana to put down in an emergency than here in upstate NY?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well all I can say chuck after 38 years as a certifying engineer in the aviation industry is "better you than me".
Just out of interest chuck, why go to the dual ignition if safety is not a concern?
Ciao

Phil, I don't think anything I said even intimated that safety *wasn't* a concern. When I built this airplane 33 years ago (!) a crankshaft driven single ignition was the only thing available for a VW conversion. I eventually used a Dyna S driven from the same location as the distributor on a VW engine. That gives true dual ignition. A crank triggered Dyna S firing 10mm plugs could be retrofited to the Guzzi aero engine for dual ignition, but you'd have to carry two batterys for a true dual system. I would do that. A magneto is extremely reliable, and can be inspected, etc. Electronic ignition is reliable, too... but... it can suddenly fail without symptoms. I have never seen a magneto fail without talking to you...
It's a moot point, anyway. The only reason to put the Guzzi in Mouser would be the novelty of doing it. There's no performance gain over my reliable  ;D VW.

I suppose there may be more places in Indiana to put down in an emergency than here in upstate NY?

Yep. ;D The midwest is an experimental aviation hotbed for a reason. That said, Mouser glides at 90mph, and an off airport landing would require picking a really good field to keep from pranging her.. ;)

[Chuck in Indiana]

:+1 :+1

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

It would be really cool if someone could get 3D laser scans of the heads and then go to a 3D print shop to get casting molds made.
They'd make some nice hot-rod heads for smallblocks!

I don't think that you know how much that I don't know.. ;D The combustion chambers and external shape would be a no brainer, but is it even feasible to digitize all the internal stuff?

[Unkept]

I don't think that you know how much that I don't know.. ;D The combustion chambers and external shape would be a no brainer, but is it even feasible to digitize all the internal stuff?

I believe there are a few services out there to X-Ray scan parts to CAD drawings... http://www.jgarantmc.com/ct-services

I bet they are expensive though! You may want to take donations to get that kind of work done. The other method is to cut the casting in half in order to laser scan it, but that is sacrilege eh?  :o

[Chuck in Indiana]

I believe there are a few services out there to X-Ray scan parts to CAD drawings... http://www.jgarantmc.com/ct-services

I bet they are expensive though! You may want to take donations to get that kind of work done. The other method is to cut the casting in half in order to laser scan it, but that is sacrilege eh?  :o

Uh...yeah. That is some seriously expensive technology.  :o Remember the problems Iceblue had just getting something as simple as valves made? ;D What we need is someone with an inside to the Guzzi factory to talk them into making up some heads. They Shirley  ;) haven't thrown away the tooling..

[jas67]

Uh...yeah. That is some seriously expensive technology.  :o Remember the problems Iceblue had just getting something as simple as valves made? ;D What we need is someone with an inside to the Guzzi factory to talk them into making up some heads. They Shirley  ;) haven't thrown away the tooling..

With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:

[Chuck in Indiana]

With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:

Yeah, they are "retired", this one is mil surplus. He no doubt bought it by the pound. Still, I'll bet Guzzi still has the tooling. They Shirley know that the Heron head has outlived it's usefulness, and if they plan on continuing the small block, an upgrade is long overdue.

[Cheese]

With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:

On the other hand, if there are more than several of these things being "retired" then they may be obtainable at auction or other millitary outlet?

Peter

[Dogwalker]

With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired. 

On the Hunter drone, they have been replaced with diesels derived from the engine of the Smart.

[Unkept]

There has to be some kind of "cheap" and creative way we could measure and recreate the heads without the expensive x-ray scan... I'll do a little bit of research as I can.

[rocker59]

With the military changing over to diesel power (so that everything can run off a single fuel, Jet-A civilian fuel, or JP-5 (I think) military fuel), the Guzzi powered ones will be, if they haven't already been, converted to diesel or retired.   Once that happens, there is no need for spares, and Guzzi will likely "retire" the tooling.   Maybe we should get them to do one last run of heads for us before they do that.    ::) :BEER:

That happened several years ago.  The UAVs that had been Guzzi powered were converted to Mercedes diesel power.

[Chuck in Indiana]

There has to be some kind of "cheap" and creative way we could measure and recreate the heads without the expensive x-ray scan... I'll do a little bit of research as I can.

Ok, once you get the digital data, who you gonna get to make the heads? Cheap, of course.. ;D
I used to do engineering modelmaking for GM back in another lifetime, and making 100 relatively complex parts from scratch is/was hellaciously expensive. I realize that things have changed since the 90s, but I'll bet it is still out of reach for us Guzzi Guys.
Believe me, Joe.. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and I hope I'm wrong.

[Unkept]

Ok, once you get the digital data, who you gonna get to make the heads? Cheap, of course.. ;D
I used to do engineering modelmaking for GM back in another lifetime, and making 100 relatively complex parts from scratch is/was hellaciously expensive. I realize that things have changed since the 90s, but I'll bet it is still out of reach for us Guzzi Guys.
Believe me, Joe.. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, and I hope I'm wrong.

Ah, but it's already beginning to drizzle Chuck...  ;)

We'll just need to find more of these milsurp engines is all...  ;D

I think the key though would be to at least document anything we can about the design, so that in whatever distant future there is... the possibility of making replica heads would be there and we would have the data to produce those replicas. :)