Author Topic: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start  (Read 4871 times)

Offline Vagrant

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2023, 09:27:35 AM »
That's what I got for my Versys 650. Great deal.
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Offline Speedfrog

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2023, 03:23:48 PM »
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Chrome Batteries are made in the US.
https://www.chromebattery.com/
'04 V11 Café Sport - '14 Griso 8V SE

Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2023, 07:44:38 PM »
I don't give up easily.  Startus Interruptus is SOLVED.

My 2006 Breva 11 cranks and starts with a 100% battery.  Diminish by the slightest in any way (like overnight parking) and all you get is the dreaded CLUNK.  I surmise that the ECU is playing a role in the start function.  One would normally think that closing the circuit at the start button would send a continuous signal to the starter solenoid spade terminal.  Not so with Guzzi.  Yes, the signal is sent, but somehow the ECU detects the slight drop in voltage or amperage and it releases or opens the starter circuit.  Even though you are still holding the button!  There is a HUGE discrepancy between the volt/amp specs required to crank the starter vs. what the ECU thinks is ideal.  Is it a sloppy software code line?  Is it poor connections along the stream?  Even if you have a proper relay for a Startus Interruptus bypass, the ECU can still cause a drop in the solenoid spade signal wire.

By using a jumper wire directly between the battery +ve post and the starter solenoid spade connector, I've determined that almost any battery condition can actually crank and start the bike.  Its just a matter of getting past the ECU logic.

I removed the spade wire from the starter solenoid and cut off the crimp spade female.  I took another 18" or so of similar wire, twisted it to the original (actually, from the one coming from the Startus Interruptus bodge) and crimped BOTH of them into one spade female connector and reinstalled.  I already had a rather standard Battery Tender fused SAE kit wired to the battery for easier occasional battery charge so I used that as my power source.  I purchased a very small, momentary, waterproof button switch and mounted that on a plastic flange behind the battery box.  I wanted that button out of sight for the casual observer but close enough to allow gloved access while astride the bike.  I didn't want to get off, use tools, remove the seat, remove luggage, etc. etc.  Just a simple, immediate bypass to duplicate what the handlebar button was supposed to be doing.  I added another SAE pigtail to power the little switch.  The two SAE plugs stay together so the stater is always operable.  The SAE plugs can be pulled apart for battery charge, phone charge, etc.  I probably could  have hidden the wiring a bit more if I were willing to drill or cut into the plastic bits.

Yes, this circuit is always hot and anyone could push the button to crank the engine.  Even when the key is off or the bike is in gear.   Who would do that?  If  you don't like that, separate the two SAE plugs or remove the seat and pull the Battery Tender inline fuse.  Abandons simplicity.  The switch and wires are probably substandard, but the load is typically only 5 seconds and I double we'll melt anything.
That is why I tucked the button as far out of sight as possible, especially with the bike leaned left on the sidestand.  I could have put it under the seat but that would eliminate the immediate need solution for a stall in traffic.  Here are a few pics.  Crude, but functional.  I bought a package of six of the little momentary push buttons.  Pay my postage and you can have one.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA








Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2023, 08:24:15 PM »
That’s just about perfect and exactly what I’ve been planning to do when I get back to work on mine. One thing tho, I will put the switch on the right side so I can hold in the clutch while starting. That way I can even start in gear,  Right?
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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2023, 08:24:15 PM »

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2023, 08:27:53 PM »
One more question. Are you not using the ignition relay and just run a fused wire the button then to the solenoid?
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2023, 08:35:27 PM »
I thought about the right side, but the CLUNK is more likely to occur first thing in the morning on a cold, overnight motor.  Thus, I need a little throttle work to help the starter.  I suppose I could use my left hand on the throttle if necessary.

Yes, exactly as to wiring.  Battery-fuse-SAE-SAE-switch-solenoid spade.  Bypasses everything else on the bike.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2023, 09:08:08 PM »
Pat, thanks for your hard work and clear explanation!

here's another question. if the ECU has this voltage problem could the issue be fixed by the gurus like Beetle and (Mienhoff?) when they write new maps or dont they have that kind of control and can only tweak the fueling?
it seems like a real fix should be made if it can be written into the ECU.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 09:09:04 PM by fotoguzzi »
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2023, 10:41:14 PM »
if the ECU has this voltage problem could the issue be fixed by the gurus

I can't answer that.  I doubt it is a software issue as it clearly doesn't happen to all bikes.  There must be a reason why a 12v signal is sent downstream to the starter solenoid spade and then suddenly that signal goes open.  I'm still pressing the button.  Something has interceded.  It could just be some Molex gang pin connector.  But which one?  And how does it get loose or corroded.  Why does it send a burst signal to produce the CLUNK but then break open to prevent cranking.  Maybe the software code has some lines that specify minimum line voltage or minimum line amperage.  Breach the limits and the signal is turned off.  Just don't know.

All I do know is that it is NOT the fault of the starter or its piggyback solenoid.  When I went to CLUNK mode, I used short jumper cables to hook up an old 2013 EV battery laying under my bench.  I'm certainly not adding more voltage and amperage.  Press the standard start button and it cranks/starts quite normally.  My AGM battery is only four months old, but it clearly isn't up to the task.  Just add in some other old battery and it works fine.  I'll be installing another new battery, but I did the push button bypass just to be sure this issue doesn't strand the bike somewhere.  Belts and braces as they say.

It is also not the Startus Interruptus fix because the the signal driving that relay is the very same original stock signal wire that the factory put on the solenoid spade.  When that signal goes open, even the Startus Interruptus relay has to stop working and you lose signal to the solenoid.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline SemperVee

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2023, 09:45:27 AM »

  Good on YA!  PE Hayes for figuring out and fixing one of the most common  persistent MG issues that has been an issue for too many years. 
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Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2023, 12:43:53 PM »
One thing tho, I will put the switch on the right side so I can hold in the clutch while starting. That way I can even start in gear,  Right?

FOTOGUZZI:  I've thought further about that.  I'd like to hear other experience, but I sense that the CLUNK feature usually or normally occurs after a period of sitting or parking.  Overnight?  After work?  Once the bike is started and run for a commute or errand, the alternator puts a nice surface charge on the battery.  If you stall in traffic, you are thus less likely to get a CLUNK.  Re-starting with the stock Guzzi button is highly likely.  With six bikes I'm more concerned about parking for several days and then getting a morning CLUNK.  Thus, I need the hand throttle, and thus my bypass button goes to the left side.

YMMV.  Does anyone get the CLUNK during an incidental traffic stall.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline blackcat

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2023, 12:56:19 PM »
I've installed this wiring on all of the Guzzi's except for the Norge as it has the MPH device. If I want to bypass the handlebar switch, the light blue female connector is touched to the power nut on the starter. No one would guess what this is and the bike won't start without the key.

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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2023, 01:06:33 PM »
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Chrome Batteries are made in the US.
https://www.chromebattery.com/

They aren't US made, but do seem to be good quality batteries. It reads under "Technical details": Country of Origin    ‎China
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 01:12:59 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Offline blackcat

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2023, 02:01:46 PM »
If you want a battery mostly made in the USA, buy an Odyssey battery.

"ODYSSEY batteries are manufactured to strict quality standards in five facilities globally: Warrensburg, Missouri  and Springfield, Missouri in the United States; Newport, Wales in the United Kingdom, and Arras, France."

https://www.odysseybattery.com/about/
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2023, 02:23:07 PM »
I've installed this wiring on all of the Guzzi's except for the Norge as it has the MPH device. If I want to bypass the handlebar switch, the light blue female connector is touched to the power nut on the starter. No one would guess what this is and the bike won't start without the key.


looks good but there is no access like that on the Norge, it’s hidden behind the side panel.

MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2023, 02:27:19 PM »
FOTOGUZZI:  I've thought further about that.  I'd like to hear other experience, but I sense that the CLUNK feature usually or normally occurs after a period of sitting or parking.  Overnight?  After work?  Once the bike is started and run for a commute or errand, the alternator puts a nice surface charge on the battery.  If you stall in traffic, you are thus less likely to get a CLUNK.  Re-starting with the stock Guzzi button is highly likely.  With six bikes I'm more concerned about parking for several days and then getting a morning CLUNK.  Thus, I need the hand throttle, and thus my bypass button goes to the left side.

YMMV.  Does anyone get the CLUNK during an incidental traffic stall.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
I don’t have the stall in traffic experience. Bu on all the FI bikes I’ve had I never had to fiddle with the throttle to start, cold or not. I thought you’re not supposed to give throttle before it starts?  So I’m sticking with the button on the right side.
So, if I wire in a button like you did Pat, can the original wire to the solenoid be connected too? And leave the ignition relay all connected as stock.? So the added button would only be used when the handlebar button is not working.
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2023, 03:39:43 PM »
So, if I wire in a button like you did Pat, can the original wire to the solenoid be connected too? And leave the ignition relay all connected as stock.? So the added button would only be used when the handlebar button is not working.

Yes.  That's the idea.  With the original wire still in place you can always use the handlebar button (provided your battery and connections are up to the task.  In fact I cut off the crimp terminal that was at the solenoid spade.  I then used a larger (yellow) crimp terminal and was able to blend or squeeze two wires in before crimping.  Either of those two wires can deliver a 12v signal to the solenoid based on immediate need.  I only need to use my bypass button if the handlebar button fails to perform.  I can then switch systems simply by pushing the bypass momentary button.

We're talking two different start failure issues here.  The original problem that people confronted was that the stock signal being delivered to the solenoid spade was too weak; either in voltage or amperage.  While the obvious symptom was "no crank" it was mostly silent.  You might hear a very faint "click" up under the seat.  If you reached in with a finger,  you could feel the stock starter relay work its insides mechanically.  If you measured,  you would likely detect that the solenoid spade wire had continuous voltage.  It just wasn't enough to do any work at the solenoid.  The concept of the SI relay fix helped to boost or improve the signal to the solenoid spade and solved most start problems.

Later, people began to experience a different symptom.  Still there was no cranking, but now there was a very obvious LOUD CLUNK coming directly from the top of the starter motor itself.  Sound caused by the inner workings of the solenoid.  In this scenario, the signal to the solenoid spade is NOT CONTINUOUS.  There is a burst of voltage which allows the solenoid to draw in its big electromagnet and produce the CLUNK noise.  But then instantly the signal in that wire drops to zero.  We think it is being intercepted and cut off by some service of the ECU.  With no electrical signal in that wire, the SI relay releases back open and then even the SI fix won't help.

So, what is your failure scenario?  Quiet CLICK no crank?  Or loud CLUNK no crank.  If you have the former, I would certainly begin with installing an SI relay. Easy and cheap enough to do your own.  Or buy the MPH version.   I only moved on to the external bypass switch because I had the CLUNK system and the SI (already in place) doesn't solve that.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline Moparnut72

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2023, 04:41:38 PM »
Glad you got everything working but I will add something with no ill will. Get rid of the blue splicer. My old Dodge had those that the PO used to splice in trailer wiring. I fought corrosion in them for a couple of years causing trailer lights to not work. It took me a couple of hours to add a bunch of wire after cutting out all the corrosion and soldering and weather protection. It was amazing how far up the wires the corrosion went.
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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2023, 04:46:17 PM »
We both have the thunk problem. (Reply #3,  I know that was awhile ago)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 04:46:56 PM by fotoguzzi »
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2023, 06:34:53 PM »
agreed on getting rid of the blue splicer, BC,
and Odyssey batteries are the good sheet, man.
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Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2023, 07:24:06 PM »
and Odyssey batteries are the good sheet, man.

This thread started about Norge but also includes Breva 11.  AFAIK, Odyssey do not make a battery to fit the Breva 11.  If someone has such in place I'd like to hear about it.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2023, 08:44:24 PM »
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 08:47:45 PM by fotoguzzi »
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2023, 09:54:05 PM »
This thread started about Norge but also includes Breva 11.  AFAIK, Odyssey do not make a battery to fit the Breva 11.  If someone has such in place I'd like to hear about it.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

I have a 680 in my Norge but it takes some minor modification of the ground and positive straps.

The blue splicer has been there for years but I certainly understand why they can be a problem, but this one has never been an issue.
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Offline blackcat

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2023, 08:29:32 AM »
looks good but there is no access like that on the Norge, it’s hidden behind the side panel.



Yes, less room than on the Tonti framed bikes but still easy accessible. 

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Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2023, 08:33:50 AM »
Maybe easy for some but I could never get my hand in there to get at the spade connector much less get it back on the pin. I can’t even see it in your pic.
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Offline John A

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2023, 01:04:50 PM »
What I’ve done with success when I don’t want to change original wiring is to add a relay. The original wire that triggers the starter solenoid now triggers the relay which gets its power straight from the battery. It then triggers the solenoid.
Those blue snap on the wire connectors are for temporary connections only and are not good even for that.
John
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Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2023, 01:32:46 PM »
What I’ve done with success when I don’t want to change original wiring is to add a relay. The original wire that triggers the starter solenoid now triggers the relay which gets its power straight from the battery. It then triggers the solenoid.

That is essentially what the Startus Interruptus modification does.  You can buy a kit from MPH in Texas or  you can build your own as you have done.

However, for some of us, not even that will solve the CLUNK issue.  Some models (Breva 11) have an auto crank feature (puhleez).  Touch the handlebar button and the motor cranks for several seconds on its own.  You don't need to hold the button to continue the cranking.  Problem is that somewhere in the wiring or connector blocks or the ECU software something intercedes to abruptly cut off the several second cranking feature.  After a few milliseconds  you no longer have a 12v cranking signal in the solenoid spade wire.  Zero volts.  So, it doesn't matter that you have installed an SI relay.  Even that relay drops when the trigger wire signal is cut.  In these rare circumstances,  you have to come up with some bypass alternative directly from battery to solenoid without utilizing the original crank trigger wire at all.  The easiest roadside emergency alternative is to carry 3' of jumper wire, remove your seat, and short the battery directly to the solenoid spade to begin cranking.  Quite a nuisance.  If the problem persists, build in a momentary switch as I have done above and you have an instant, functional alternative to the failed Guzzi cranking.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline blackcat

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2023, 03:20:38 PM »
Maybe easy for some but I could never get my hand in there to get at the spade connector much less get it back on the pin. I can’t even see it in your pic.

You can't see the spade connector because I have not modified the wiring on this bike as it has never been a problem getting it started. But the hot wire nut is accessible. Anyway, good luck with the problem.

"Those blue snap on the wire connectors are for temporary connections only and are not good even for that."

And it's been there for about a dozen years as these wires are only used if the starter switch doesn't work, which has been rare on this bike.  It's way better than crossing two screwdrivers to jump the starter in the field.
1968 Norton Fastback
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Offline John A

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2023, 07:55:08 PM »
You can't see the spade connector because I have not modified the wiring on this bike as it has never been a problem getting it started. But the hot wire nut is accessible. Anyway, good luck with the problem.

"Those blue snap on the wire connectors are for temporary connections only and are not good even for that."

And it's been there for about a dozen years as these wires are only used if the starter switch doesn't work, which has been rare on this bike.  It's way better than crossing two screwdrivers to jump the starter in the field.




That’s a good way to use them then. They are still ugly though
John
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Offline pehayes

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2023, 01:03:04 PM »
I finally installed a new battery and the CLUNK seems gone for now.  It was also gone just after the old battery was removed from bench charger assistance.  We'll have to see how easily it returns when the bike is parked for several days on the new battery.  Meanwhile, my starter 'bypass' circuit continues to work just fine.  But there are new discoveries.

A few messages above we discussed the merits of installing the starter bypass momentary on the  left side or right side.  This is 2006 Breva 1100.  My preference is to have the bypass momentary on the left so I can use my right hand for throttle advance (more later).  Someone commented that you don't need any throttle when starting an FI bike.  Well, maybe not.

When you have a bike with the 'autostart' cranking feature, unlike older bikes, the handlebar button does not send signal directly to the starter solenoid.  The hand button signal goes to the ECU and the computer coding dictates what to do.  That includes cranking the starter but also includes throttle advance via stepper motor and mixture enrichment via injectors.  Yes, on a factory normal functioning bike you just tap the button and let go.  The motor comes to life under full control of the ECU.

Now we introduce my starter bypass momentary button direct from battery to starter solenoid.  The starter engages and cranks much more reliably, even with a weakened battery.  No CLUNK.  But the ECU itself is no longer triggered by input from the handlebar button.  I have no way to measure or verify, but I certainly sense that cold mixture is wrong and throttle opening is wrong.  Cranking is wonderful but actual 'starting' struggles a bit.  That starting struggle can easily be offset by simply advancing the hand throttle a little, just as  you would have done with an old carb bike.  As soon as the motor starts and revs a few times it settles into a normal idle and whatever functions were omitted by the bypass starter seems to correct itself and run fine.

I did have one incident where the bike started and a red warning triangle appeared at the top of the dash.    I ran the bike a few moments to warm the motor and let the alternator give a little battery boost.  I then turned the key off.  Turned back on and used the handlebar start button.  No CLUNK now and the red triangle went away.  I can only presume that the red triangle was detecting and complaining about something erroneous in the programmed start sequencing due to crank bypass.

YMMV.  Keep up the research.  At least the bypass fully prevents or overcomes the CLUNK stranding failure on overnight trips.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline AJ Huff

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Re: Edit: Norge have immobilizer? Won’t start
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2023, 01:17:42 PM »
The Norge and Breva don't have a choke?

-AJ
'71 Ambassador
'01 California Special
'05 Road King
MGNOC# L-753

 

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