Gear up..

[Huzo]

Gear up..!
Back in a previous life that meant something completely different, but now it signifies what I see as a need for my Norge.
A while back I did some gouging in the timing chest of my Norge
Gouging..






 and jammed a Valtek timing chain tensioner inside.
Jamming in of said tensioner.




Fair to say that it was a dramatic improvement over the original one, which was about the size of a 4 year old child’s thumb and about as effective.
But I now want to install a set of gears and will grab a set of Joe Caruso’s masterpieces if they are available. If they are not, I’d be happy to work something out with anyone who has a set, new or used.

[moto-uno]

Why bother , you've already got the best idea in it now . They last so long you'll never remember when you installed it .
Any straight cut gear set will just make noise .  Peter

[Huzo]

Why bother , you've already got the best idea in it now . They last so long you'll never remember when you installed it .
Any straight cut gear set will just make noise .  Peter

I think the gears will have less rattles and I like the concept more.

[motoguzznix]

The only advantages of timing gears I can see is less friction losses which is only important for race engines. Light alloy gears wear quickly, ojnly steel gears can have a service life comparable to a chain set.
The mass of the chain is an important damping element for the uneven behavior of the camshat rotation compared to the crankshaft. When looking at a Guzzi cam, you can see that all lobes are concetrated on one side of the cam. So tha cam wonts to rotate sometimes faster, sometimes slower than the crank. The timing chain together with a good tensioner will be damping out these irregularitys and contributes a lot to a regular engine running behavior. Especially in the lower rpm range.

For a street bike the chain is simply the best.

[Huzo]

For a street bike the chain is simply the best.

Well, I’ll just have to make do with second best then.

[jrt]

Huzo, you do you. 
Good luck with the gears.  I have a set of aluminum gears (that I bought in the early '90's!) on a shelf, but they are for a round-fin, so I don't know if they would work for you.

[Old Jock]

Can all the chain Gnu's explain to me if a chain is the best solution why did Guzzi install gears in these engines originally?

As far as alloy gears go I have no experience, some sear by Agositini's alloy sets, which have not been available for many years. However there are many badly made sets that exist out there and have deystroyed  a large numbers of engines. For that reason alone I'd rule them out.

The HiCam engines used a steel crank gear driving 2 alloy gears for the pump and service shaft.

I'm no design engineer but my understanding is Guzzi went to chains for cost reasons. I've nothing against chains they work and last a long, long time. Perhaps they do damp pulsations, but they also stretch which won't help timing.

My own take is steel gears or chains both work very well for this application, so it's down to user choice

I've put Joe's steel gears into my LM 1000, Sporti and HiCam and have no regrets.

[lucky phil]

Why bother , you've already got the best idea in it now . They last so long you'll never remember when you installed it .
Any straight cut gear set will just make noise .  Peter

Wrong on both counts then:) I'll leave the argument about the first statement because it will just go round in circles as it always does but the second statement is worth a comment. I have 2 engines fitted with Joe Caruso steel gears and noise isn't an issue with them, same as it wasn't with the earlier big block Guzzi's that used them standard. Joes are straight cut as well and a casual observer wouldn't be able to pick the gears which was a bit of a disappointment to me actually. Don't mind a little Supercharger like whine from a gear set.
As an interesting aside when I fitted the steel gears to my V11 the first thing I needed to do when got back from the first short ride was to turn the idle down 200rpm. Seems there was quite a bit less friction/drag with the gears at idle which I wasn't really expecting to be honest.
As I've mentioned before, when cost isn't a consideration the best go with gears.

Ducati Desmosedici. Art and engineering meet.



 

Ciao

[Moparnut72]

The Sportster I once owned had a slew of gears driving the four cams. It has been several years since I had it but I don't remember any undue noise coming from the timing chest.
kk

[jacksonracingcomau]

Wrong on both counts then

Ducati Desmosedici. Art and engineering meet.



 

Ciao

Truly gorgeous, and exactly the point,
Lightweight and straight cut
 Carcano’s original V7 gears were helically cut and stupid heavy
V7 Sport to come may have gears Tonti wanted to use but conservative policy prevailed
But everyone else who won anything didn’t use chain or heavy gears

[Tony F]

Wrong on both counts then:) I'll leave the argument about the first statement because it will just go round in circles as it always does but the second statement is worth a comment. I have 2 engines fitted with Joe Caruso steel gears and noise isn't an issue with them, same as it wasn't with the earlier big block Guzzi's that used them standard. Joes are straight cut as well and a casual observer wouldn't be able to pick the gears which was a bit of a disappointment to me actually. Don't mind a little Supercharger like whine from a gear set.
As an interesting aside when I fitted the steel gears to my V11 the first thing I needed to do when got back from the first short ride was to turn the idle down 200rpm. Seems there was quite a bit less friction/drag with the gears at idle which I wasn't really expecting to be honest.
As I've mentioned before, when cost isn't a consideration the best go with gears.

Ducati Desmosedici. Art and engineering meet.



 

Ciao

Truly gorgeous, and exactly the point,
Lightweight and straight cut
 Carcano’s original V7 gears were helically cut and stupid heavy
V7 Sport to come may have gears Tonti wanted to use but conservative policy prevailed
But everyone else who won anything didn’t use chain or heavy gears

And a hose clip and lockwire to stop the oil filter loosening.

[jacksonracingcomau]

And a hose clip and lockwire to stop the oil filter loosening.

Didn’t think of that, Ducati gear train is wonderful but filter is exposed
Son (knicker elastic drive Scrambler ) put a big dent in his
Filter in sump much more sensible

[Huzo]

Beaut news...!
Joe Caruso sent me an e mail indicating that my Norge timing gears are on the go.
At 200,000 k


 I reckon she’s earned them..
Can’t wait...

[Kiwi_Roy]

Many years ago I had a mix of steel and alloy straight cut gears in a Vincent.
The teeth on the alloy gear had worn so sharp you could almost cut yourself.

[Huzo]

Many years ago I had a mix of steel and alloy straight cut gears in a Vincent.
The teeth on the alloy gear had worn so sharp you could almost cut yourself.

Joe’s are steel.

[Scout63]

Newbie question - are gear sets available for round fin (G5) engines?

[Huzo]

Newbie question - are gear sets available for round fin (G5) engines?

Don’t know, but he can be e mailed.

[lucky phil]

I've just ordered another Daytona set myself plus the next iteration of oil pump.

Ciao

[Huzo]

‘Just got the e mail from Joe this morning.
Mine are done and details for delivery have been sent....
I will put in new oil pump bearings while I’m in this time.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I wonder if Joe puts timing marks on the gears?

[Huzo]

I wonder if Joe puts timing marks on the gears?

Wonder no more KR...

[chuck peterson]

Thanks! Great explanation

The only advantages of timing gears I can see is less friction losses which is only important for race engines. Light alloy gears wear quickly, ojnly steel gears can have a service life comparable to a chain set.
The mass of the chain is an important damping element for the uneven behavior of the camshat rotation compared to the crankshaft. When looking at a Guzzi cam, you can see that all lobes are concetrated on one side of the cam. So tha cam wonts to rotate sometimes faster, sometimes slower than the crank. The timing chain together with a good tensioner will be damping out these irregularitys and contributes a lot to a regular engine running behavior. Especially in the lower rpm range.

For a street bike the chain is simply the best.

[Alfetta]

The purpose to move away from gears to chains is that gears require shaft centers to be held to higher tolerances, or suffer with noise and wear issues.

typically when i design a gear train, i do not like to use steel on steel, and if i must, I take care to select alloy and heat treat processes to make sure that the larger gear is slightly softer than the smaller gear.

there are many engines out there (International Cub tractor, Renault Dauphine, etc..) that use a steel timing gear on the crank, driving a phenolic (plasticized cloth) cam gear.

Gear Pros: better control of timing over greater speed range, long life.  Gear Cons: Manufacturing cost, require "fitting" if block wasn't bored perfect.
Chain Pros: lower tolerances required on shaft centers, if things move with heat, a chain wont care much. Chain Cons: require tension device that is typically sacrificial, Less accurate timing control, Wear over time is emanate.


Just my 2c

[bigbikerrick]

When I read the title "Gear Up" I thought this is what you were referring to.



Rick

[kirby1923]

The purpose to move away from gears to chains is that gears require shaft centers to be held to higher tolerances, or suffer with noise and wear issues.

typically when i design a gear train, i do not like to use steel on steel, and if i must, I take care to select alloy and heat treat processes to make sure that the larger gear is slightly softer than the smaller gear.

Gear Pros: better control of timing over greater speed range, long life.  Gear Cons: Manufacturing cost, require "fitting" if block wasn't bored perfect.
Chain Pros: lower tolerances required on shaft centers, if things move with heat, a chain wont care much. Chain Cons: require tension device that is typically sacrificial, Less accurate timing control, Wear over time is emanate.


Just my 2c

Nicely put..BTDT

My .02 as well.

:-)

[Moparnut72]

I have also been a Studebaker fan. The V8s they manufactured had timing gears. The corporation joked that Chevrolet had enough trouble getting body panels to fit right on initail design let alone getting their blocks machined well enough tofit timing gears. Studebaker engines were well made and had a high nickel content so that the boreshad very little wear. Taper was almost nonexistentafter many many miles.
kk

[Huzo]

The corporation joked that Chevrolet had enough trouble getting body panels to fit right on initail design let alone getting their blocks machined well enough tofit timing gears.

Your point is well made, aren’t I lucky it’s a Moto Guzzi and not a Studebaker ?

[Roebling3]

A good friend & MG guru installed the yclept Caruso gears and pump in my Daytona,~3 years ago. He has had much experience owning 3 Centauro. His generous stack of timing gears, with odd wear characteristics (refreshed with every belt change, iirc), offer a hint to impending doom. Mine were changed @18k miles. Another friends' Centauro blew up @ 27K miles. The engine, in all cases is virtually a total loss. Pre-empting the inevitable is a good thing.   R3~

[Old Jock]

A good friend & MG guru installed the yclept Caruso gears and pump in my Daytona,~3 years ago. He has had much experience owning 3 Centauro. His generous stack of timing gears, with odd wear characteristics (refreshed with every belt change, iirc), offer a hint to impending doom. Mine were changed @18k miles. Another friends' Centauro blew up @ 27K miles. The engine, in all cases is virtually a total loss. Pre-empting the inevitable is a good thing.   R3~

Are you saying that a bike blew up with Caruso gears installed or saying that the OEM steel crank gears with alloy driven gears on the oil pump and service shaft blew up?

I've never heard of any problems with the Caruso gears but have heard that a few bikes running the OEM setup did experience failures

[Huzo]

The purpose to move away from gears to chains is that gears require shaft centers to be held to higher tolerances, or suffer with noise and wear

This is a fair point in my view.
I can see no reason why the shaft centres would not be as per spec, but it is still a fairly high level of expectation when you consider the machining is done completely separate to the gear radii, with no expectation that gears will be retro fitted.
It would be a different matter if the gear manufacturer was to measure the centres then build the gears or set up the boring to suit the gears, but when you build two components completely remote from each other and each one has manufacturing tolerances, then mate them up later with an expectation that the lash will be perfect ?
That is fairly long bow to draw.
But.
I paid for them today, so here’s hoping...