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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 12:58:46 AM

Title: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 12:58:46 AM
OK this will be an ongoing thread as I don't think I've actually got pics of the whole process but let's start off by looking at what is involved with getting the heads off and put to bed some of these nonsense stories about the 'Complexity' of the 8V!

Obviously what you have to remove to get to the heads varies from model to model. A Norge for instance obviously has more crap to remove than a Griso. First night though is to get the tank and any fairings or panels that need removing to expose the heads. Once you have access to the whole top end of the motor then you can begin.

Note that I will be using a variety of pictures from various engine work to illustrate this. It isn't simply a 'Start to Finish' one bike affair. For the sake of argument we will also be working on the principle we are doing a 'C' or 'D' kit as these require removal of the heads. For the 'A' and 'B' kits the heads can be left in place.

Righty Ho then. First pull the header pipes and unscrew the intake manifolds from the heads. No need to remove the throttle bodies they can just sit there in the trumpets from the air box.

From there whip the HT lead covers off and pull the HT leads and plug caps and then the spark plugs.

From here it doesn't matter which side you do first but I always start on the left.

Set the piston up at TDC compression just as you would if you were going to set the valve clearances.

Next thing is that on the back of the LH barrel there is a small6mm thread, 4mm hex dome headed Allen bolt. You can see it in this pic of a motor on the bench.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8642/15639644113_f5b2983f35_k.jpg)

Note there is no corresponding screw on the RH cylinder.this is because on the right you can easily access the tensioner plunger. This has to be removed. Use a VERY good Allen key because it will be tight and will want to round out if you don't use an accurate key. If that happens you have to chisel it out. You don't want to have to do that if the engine is in the frame because it's a cow of a job.

Once the bolt is out you have to perform the most tiresome part of the whole operation. The camchain is tensioned by a hydraulic tensioner that presses against a pivoting blade. Be warned this blade is VERY frangible and if you break it it's an engine out job to replace it. It has to be bled down to loosen the chain and to do this you need to slide a thin, flat bladed screwdriver down between the chain and the tensioner blade and then lever slowly but inexorably on the blade until the tensioner blade pushes away from the chain. As it collapses the tensioner plunger the screwdriver can be slipped down further to help keep the pressure closer to the plunger. Eventually the blade will be back far enough and a small Allen key or other such prong can be pushed through the bolt hole in the back of the cylinder, through a corresponding hole in the tensioner blade and into a notch on the other side of the camchain tunnel in the barrel. This then holds the tensioner so that the chain is now loose.

Here's a not very good pic of me playing the game. I'll see if I can find a better one later.

Sorry, more later.


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7580/16072495510_0b834b9f29_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pQ2gjr)

In the above pic you can see that the bolt that retains the oil flinger and sprocket to the cam has been removed. Why I can't remember but in *your* job undoing that bolt and removing the the flinger is the next item on the list. The best way to achieve this is to use a 24mm socket and bar on the front crank nut to prevent the crank from spinning and then use a 10mm socket and ratchet on the cam bolt. Note that these bolts always seem to have been done up to about a trillion ft/lbs at the factory and it's a really good idea to crack them with a six point socket rather than trying with a 12 pointer as a 12 pointer will have a tendency to slip off and mullah the head of the bolt. Once cracked off they will spin out easily enough.

Once the bolt and flinger plate are out the sprocket is exposed. Note that the 'Pin' that indexes the cam to the sprocket is at six o'clock, in one with the centreline of the cylinder.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7487/16072522220_09ef1c4c2d_k.jpg)

While both sprockets for left and right cylinders are identical they have two indexing holes in them marked 'L' and 'R' , (Rather than the traditional 'S' and 'D'.) it's a good idea to check that these are visible as they can be rather faint. If you have any doubts mark the relevant hole with a permanent marker of some sort. You don't want to re-time it to the wrong hole!

Once you have established this you can wriggle the sprocket off the end of the camshaft. I'd you are installing an 'A' or 'B' kit you can leave the chain on the sprocket and simply cable-tie it to the side of the head. As the head doesn't have to come off.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3537/3430032569_7eae8dea67_b.jpg)

If you are continuing on to pull the head though you now extract the sprocket from the chain and remove it and the chain can be dropped down the tunnel. Don't worry, it can't disappear inextricably into the bowels of the motor. Once the head is off you can fish it out again! :D

From here getting the cambox and head off is easy as pie. Once agin on this engine I performed this task out of sequence for some reason as the pic below shows the sprocket still on the cam but the next step is to loosen the two long bolts (8mm head, 6mm shank.) that clamp the back of the cam chain tunnel. It's important to do these first, before the main head stud nuts are loosened otherwise the head casting may deform risking leaks on reassembly.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8623/16074029897_1f45fcf11b_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on August 09, 2015, 08:16:45 AM
This will be very helpful. Thanks.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 12:09:10 PM
OK this will be an ongoing thread as I don't think I've actually got pics of the whole process but let's start off by looking at what is involved with getting the heads off and put to bed some of these nonsense stories about the 'Complexity' of the 8V!

Obviously what you have to remove to get to the heads varies from model to model. A Norge for instance obviously has more crap to remove than a Griso. First night though is to get the tank and any fairings or panels that need removing to expose the heads. Once you have access to the whole top end of the motor then you can begin.

Note that I will be using a variety of pictures from various engine work to illustrate this. It isn't simply a 'Start to Finish' one bike affair. For the sake of argument we will also be working on the principle we are doing a 'C' or 'D' kit as these require removal of the heads. For the 'A' and 'B' kits the heads can be left in place.

Righty Ho then. First pull the header pipes and unscrew the intake manifolds from the heads. No need to remove the throttle bodies they can just sit there in the trumpets from the air box.

From there whip the HT lead covers off and pull the HT leads and plug caps and then the spark plugs.

From here it doesn't matter which side you do first but I always start on the left.

Set the piston up at TDC compression just as you would if you were going to set the valve clearances.

Next thing is that on the back of the LH barrel there is a small6mm thread, 4mm hex dome headed Allen bolt. You can see it in this pic of a motor on the bench.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8642/15639644113_f5b2983f35_k.jpg)

Note there is no corresponding screw on the RH cylinder.this is because on the right you can easily access the tensioner plunger. This has to be removed. Use a VERY good Allen key because it will be tight and will want to round out if you don't use an accurate key. If that happens you have to chisel it out. You don't want to have to do that if the engine is in the frame because it's a cow of a job.

Once the bolt is out you have to perform the most tiresome part of the whole operation. The camchain is tensioned by a hydraulic tensioner that presses against a pivoting blade. Be warned this blade is VERY frangible and if you break it it's an engine out job to replace it. It has to be bled down to loosen the chain and to do this you need to slide a thin, flat bladed screwdriver down between the chain and the tensioner blade and then lever slowly but inexorably on the blade until the tensioner blade pushes away from the chain. As it collapses the tensioner plunger the screwdriver can be slipped down further to help keep the pressure closer to the plunger. Eventually the blade will be back far enough and a small Allen key or other such prong can be pushed through the bolt hole in the back of the cylinder, through a corresponding hole in the tensioner blade and into a notch on the other side of the camchain tunnel in the barrel. This then holds the tensioner so that the chain is now loose.

Here's a not very good pic of me playing the game. I'll see if I can find a better one later.

Sorry, more later.


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7580/16072495510_0b834b9f29_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/pQ2gjr)

In the above pic you can see that the bolt that retains the oil flinger and sprocket to the cam has been removed. Why I can't remember but in *your* job undoing that bolt and removing the the flinger is the next item on the list. The best way to achieve this is to use a 24mm socket and bar on the front crank nut to prevent the crank from spinning and then use a 10mm socket and ratchet on the cam bolt. Note that these bolts always seem to have been done up to about a trillion ft/lbs at the factory and it's a really good idea to crack them with a six point socket rather than trying with a 12 pointer as a 12 pointer will have a tendency to slip off and mullah the head of the bolt. Once cracked off they will spin out easily enough.

Once the bolt and flinger plate are out the sprocket is exposed. Note that the 'Pin' that indexes the cam to the sprocket is at six o'clock, in one with the centreline of the cylinder.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7487/16072522220_09ef1c4c2d_k.jpg)

While both sprockets for left and right cylinders are identical they have two indexing holes in them marked 'L' and 'R' , (Rather than the traditional 'S' and 'D'.) it's a good idea to check that these are visible as they can be rather faint. If you have any doubts mark the relevant hole with a permanent marker of some sort. You don't want to re-time it to the wrong hole!

Once you have established this you can wriggle the sprocket off the end of the camshaft. I'd you are installing an 'A' or 'B' kit you can leave the chain on the sprocket and simply cable-tie it to the side of the head. As the head doesn't have to come off.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3537/3430032569_7eae8dea67_b.jpg)

If you are continuing on to pull the head though you now extract the sprocket from the chain and remove it and the chain can be dropped down the tunnel. Don't worry, it can't disappear inextricably into the bowels of the motor. Once the head is off you can fish it out again! :D

From here getting the cambox and head off is easy as pie. Once agin on this engine I performed this task out of sequence for some reason as the pic below shows the sprocket still on the cam but the next step is to loosen the two long bolts (8mm head, 6mm shank.) that clamp the back of the cam chain tunnel. It's important to do these first, before the main head stud nuts are loosened otherwise the head casting may deform risking leaks on reassembly.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8623/16074029897_1f45fcf11b_k.jpg)

Once they are loose you can crack off the four main 15mm flange nuts that retain the cambox to the head studs. These can be very tight, much tighter than the recommended 30ft/lbs I reckon! (Yes, sorry, this is the RH head but you get the picture!)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7565/16072612820_9329976514_k.jpg)

(Before anyone notices and asks this engine had already been rollerised as can be seen by the cambox castings which have two spark plug tunnels. Unfortunately the failing tappets had done for the big ends, hence the full engine strip.)

Once the four nuts have been removed the two previously loosened long clamping bolts can also be removed. Note they have washers under the heads.

As of now the camboxes and heads are 'Loose'. The only thing retaining them is the dowels on the two studs that take oil delivery to the cambox and rockers. Gentle prying will separate the cambox from the head.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7513/16258143811_eeeacd9dd9_k.jpg)

And it can be lifted off the studs.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7538/16259132312_d5cc6ca486_k.jpg)

From there it is simply a matter of sticking your fingers in the ports and wriggling the head off the dowels between the head and barrel and lifting it off!

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8602/16234109466_2742f476f9_k.jpg)

Note that between both barrel and head and head and cambox there are dowels. Take great care not to loose them as they can come loose and drop out. If they separate while the cambox or head are being removed there is a chance they could drop down the cam chain tunnel. You don't want that.

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 12:11:39 PM
Sorry about the double post. I'm still having a few problems with loading stuff up.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 09, 2015, 12:13:37 PM
Thanks for the gearhead porn..  :thumb:  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 12:31:20 PM
This is the engine that had two of those poxy O2 sensor foolers on it. Virtually every moving part was knackered. Check out the camchain. The long one is the old one the short one is the new one!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7538/16024276890_212fe7e9be_z.jpg)

Sump was lovely!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7515/16185759146_080ecb633b_z.jpg)

Ring end gap was 100 thou!

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8755/16791580448_6d33ee2050_z.jpg)

Pete

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on August 09, 2015, 12:57:05 PM
Well done Pete, can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this.   dave
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 07:18:30 PM
Probably easier if I continue this in 'Chunks' as editing the first post is a PITA.

So where whew we? Ah that's right, we have the heads off.

When doing a 'C' or 'D' kit you have to put the shims under the spring seats which requires removal of the valve springs and valves. To do this you need a compressor and if you aren't familiar with how to do this nod don't have a compressor it is probably cheaper and easier to just take the heads, one at a time, to a shop and ask them to do it but.......

Using the compressor you compress the valve spring until you can pull the collets, (What you in Yanquis Land call 'Keepers' I believe?) off the valve stem with a magnet or magnetic tipped screwdriver.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7531/15273905034_63b965d744_z.jpg)

The collets are tiny. Don't loose them!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7517/15895512532_b0c8d0b47a_z.jpg)

The compressor can then be released so the spring can relax and then it and the cap can be removed.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7478/15708669648_00a1ceab4e_z.jpg)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7539/15870356346_5f30bc3710_z.jpg)

The valve guide oil seal then has to be pried off the guide to allow removal of the bottom valve spring seat.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8572/15894173801_ab68c1a2a2_z.jpg)

Allowing the figment of the valve spring shim.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8574/15708670378_a297a098ea_z.jpg)

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8613/15896172335_7571f54e25_z.jpg)

Here are the valve, spring seat and shim.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7543/15273906314_43a0341320_z.jpg)

After the seat is back on top of the shim a new valve guide oil seal can be installed, (They just press on.), the valve can be slipped back in and the spring, cap and collets re installed in a reverse of disasembly. Make sure that the lips of the collets are in the groove in the valve. I stick them in place with a bit of grease. Once the spring has been released clean off excess grease carefully and inspect to make 100% certain the collets are installed correctly. Then get a small hammer and rap directly on the tip of the valve a few times while supporting the head in such a way that as the valve moves it doesn't hit the bench. This will ensure the collets are correctly seated, or, if they aren't, tha cap and collets will fire off across the workshop like bullets as the collets get spat out of their grooves! :evil:

Repeat the process for the other inlet valve.







Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 09:52:18 PM
Movin' right along we can now start the reassembly and cam box swap.

Grab a new head gasket of the correct thickness. If you don't have suitable measuring tools and the gasket isn't marked, (They are colour coded nowadays.) just use the middle thickness one. The very precise squish setting is principally to reduce oxides of nitrogen and has little to no effect on performance. Make sure the mating surfaces of both head and barrel are squeaky clean and that the dowels are in place and gently lower the head back onto the studs. Wriggle it to engage it on the dowels and press it home. Note it is vital that the piston be left at TDC for timing purposes. Also while doing this make sure you have got hold of the camchain and fed it back up the tunnel as the head goes on. You can, once the head is on the dowels, cable tie it to the side of the head.

You can now take the old cambox and undo the two screws in the centre of the rocker retainer. That would be those two Allen bolts on the left in this pic. Whoops, that didn't work. Here's another pic. You can see the bolts I mean with the earthing tang installed under them.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8683/16073591259_8cca25fc78_z.jpg)


This allows you to remove the top plate after which the rockers can be slipped up towards the cam and wriggled out. Remove the plate from the roller cambox and liberally smear the bearings with assembly lube before sliding the rockers into place in the new cambox and bolting the top plate back on again. When you do this don't forget to add the new earthing tang under the bolts! Don't worry too much about how tight you do them up. Just nip them up. You can tighten them much more easily once the cambox is back on the head.

Before you install the cambox back on the studs make sure that the dowels between head and cambox are in place and that you have installed the hemispherical 'Pads' in the ends of the rockers.

As you can see the tops of the roller tappets are flat. As they move in a purely linear fashion but the rocker moves in an arc there will be a need for the rocker to move side to side in relation to the tappet. With the flat tappet set up this small deviation was catered for by the tiny pushrods betwixt tappet and rocker. With the roller set up the hemispherical pads perform this function by sliding and rotating on top of the (?) tower of the tappet assembly.

'Pads' and earthing tangs.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5239/14066711401_585cc9931a_z.jpg)

And the 'Pad' on top of the tappet as it sits in service.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5228/14066724471_4778f113c2_z.jpg)

The way I do it is I glue the 'Pads' into the rockers with assembly lube and then simply pick the cambox up keeping pressure on the rockers so they can't fall out and slip it down onto the head studs. Once again ensure both the dowels are in place between the head and cambox. Once the cambox is on the pads can't fall out.

Once the cambox is in place the screw and locknut las adjusters can be loosened off so that the valve spring pressure doesn't interfere with the torque settings and the four 15mm head nuts can be installed and torqued in two stages in a crosshatch patern to 30 ft/lbs. then the rocker retaining plate bolts can be tightened properly to 20-22 ft lbs. The long camchain tunnel clamping bolts can then be re-installed, along with their washers and tightened down. Can't offhand remember the torque setting, probably 8 to 10 ft/lbs. I do it by feel as I do with any 6mm bolt into alloy.







Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 10:30:30 PM
From here it's all a coast to the finish.

Pop the cam sprocket back in the chain, ensure that the peg in the cam is at 6 o'clock and move the chain around the teeth of the sprocket until the sprocket will slip back onto the cam. Make CERTAIN that you use the correct timing hole, in this case the left one. Reinstall the flinger plate and the sprocket retainer bolt. Make sure that that one of the un-necessary holes in the flinger plate doesn't line up with the locator peg. I don't even know why the holes are there, it's stupid! I use 243 on the bolt as well.

Once the bolt is tight the key holding back the tensioner blade can be removed and the small dome head screw with alloy washer used to blank the hole can be re-installed.

Set the valve lash, pop the head cover back on. Go round to the right hand side.

One thing I forgot was the cooling oil feed to the heads. This is delivered by two large, 19mm hex, banjo bolts to the inside of the heads in the valley. Obviously this has to be disconnected before you can pull the head. Sorry. That needs reconnecting too.

On the right hand side the procedure is identical apart from the fact that rather than having to push back the tensioner blade and hold it out of the way with a peg you simply remove the cover over the tensioner plunger in the inside of the Vee in the valley. This takes the tension off the chain without any of the jiggers pokery required on the left.

I do hope this puts to bed some of the hair-tearing associated with the 'Complexity' of the 8V. It really is a delightfully simple old dunger and no more complicated to work on than the old pushrod lump.

Any questions?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: SteveAZ on August 09, 2015, 10:45:30 PM
No questions yet but thank you. I refuse to die without owning an 8V Griso and this thread debunks the idea that the top end of 8V is full of delicate little bits made of glass and pixie wings. It's still robust and very Guzzi looking. Except maybe those collets but never mind that.

The mapping work by beetle helps  make the whole package that much sweeter as well.

Time to start saving the extra dollars and getting ready for a second bike.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 09, 2015, 10:50:23 PM
They're as tough and robust as they ever were Steve. As I've said before the tappet problems are usually the result of two things. Poor servicing and climate.

Pixie wings? (Snort!) :evil:

Pete.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on August 10, 2015, 06:06:56 AM
Bravo! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 10, 2015, 07:33:20 AM
Call me dense, but what's the purpose of the valve spring shim?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Silver Goose on August 10, 2015, 07:59:02 AM
Pete, again, you have taken some of the mystery out of a job most have heard about. Your pictures and comments are as clear as possible.

Thank you, Pete!

Good Luck
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 10, 2015, 08:02:40 AM
The roller tappet assemblies are heavier than the flat tappet and pushrod set up. Adding the shim increases the seating poundage slightly one presumes to reduce the risk of float at higher rpm. One assumes a boffin did the sums and decided that the smaller exhaust valves didn't have enough mass to make them necessary but having said that some mid period stelvios have shims under the exhaust seats as well :rolleyes:. Don't ask me. I just work here..... :grin:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 10, 2015, 08:43:03 AM
Oh, and one last 'Scary' pic so you can see how terribly complicated they are! :grin:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7559/16209751121_562686b620_z.jpg)

There really isn't any more to them than the old ones. :thumb:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Phang on August 10, 2015, 08:47:19 AM
Pete,  can you show us the close up photo of the shimmed head with dimple drilled/punched on the cleavage side?

Thanks  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 10, 2015, 08:57:53 AM
I don't think I've got one handy. I'll have a look. I'll be rollerising Mark's bike in early September and his is a 'B' kit bike so I'll be able to get a pig then. It's just a 'Spot' in the paint adjacent to the date stamp.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Phang on August 10, 2015, 09:02:44 AM
I don't think I've got one handy. I'll have a look. I'll be rollerising Mark's bike in early September and his is a 'B' kit bike so I'll be able to get a pig then. It's just a 'Spot' in the paint adjacent to the date stamp.

Pete

It's fine Pete, I am just curious to see the sneaky work done by the Mandello factory :laugh:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: beetle on August 10, 2015, 04:49:19 PM
If I may be so bold...

(http://www.griso.org/r-mark.jpg)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on August 10, 2015, 04:56:44 PM
That be them.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: 56Pan on August 10, 2015, 05:38:22 PM
Outstanding instructions and thanks for taking the time.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: canuck1969 on October 09, 2015, 07:23:04 AM
Pete,

What is the purpose of the valve shims for the C/D kits (other than to shim a valve :grin:...ie why do they need to be shimmed).  My friends 2010 Stelvio rollerization was done at the dealer and now it is drinking gas like water.  His fuel consumption went up 20 to 30% in some situations. Wondering if perhaps they did not do all the required steps, or missed a couple of shims as there is a knock for about 3 seconds after startup and decel popping (on the stock maps) no mater what the temp of the engine is.

This is running the new stock 42 map, tried the old flat tappet 52 map just for fun and even some of the roller custom maps and all yield significantly higher fuel consumption than when the flat tappets were in.  Any ideas or is this normal on the single lambda bike rollerizations.  With the small tank on the 2010 is really kills the range of the bike.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on October 09, 2015, 08:12:08 AM
The roller tappet assemblies are heavier than the flat tappet and pushrod set up. Adding the shim increases the seating poundage slightly one presumes to reduce the risk of float at higher rpm. One assumes a boffin did the sums and decided that the smaller exhaust valves didn't have enough mass to make them necessary but having said that some mid period stelvios have shims under the exhaust seats as well :rolleyes:. Don't ask me. I just work here..... :grin:

I read this      somewhere. :huh:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: cruzziguzzi on October 09, 2015, 10:04:56 AM
Having taken the time to photo-document a couple of projects for people - I too, want to thank you for the extra time taken to get this project recorded.

What do you suppose is the reason for that excess ring end-gap? Poor ring selection/prep. Did the bore get run out that much?

I don't know that I'll ever have an 8 valve, but know neither that I won't. I hope this is still around if ever I do get one.

Todd.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on October 09, 2015, 10:12:34 AM
What do you suppose is the reason for that excess ring end-gap? Poor ring selection/prep. Did the bore get run out that much?

I don't know that I'll ever have an 8 valve, but know neither that I won't. I hope this is still around if ever I do get one.

READ the header for those photos.
That is just a couple of photos that Vasco tossed in from another bike. The owner had installed O2 sensor modifiers. It caused the bike to run way too rich, which caused a LOT of wear.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: cruzziguzzi on October 09, 2015, 10:28:10 AM
READ the header for those photos.
That is just a couple of photos that Vasco tossed in from another bike. The owner had installed O2 sensor modifiers. It caused the bike to run way too rich, which caused a LOT of wear.

I SAW and READ the header and am still asking how that results in the ring gap?

Not a challenge, merely simple curiosity. Potentially stretching the chain I can cypher out for myself but am not too clear on possible effects on the ring dimensions. Is the ring smaller, the bore bigger, bad Luigied rings in the first place?

Todd.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on October 09, 2015, 10:49:27 AM
I SAW and READ the header and am still asking how that results in the ring gap?

Not a challenge, merely simple curiosity. Potentially stretching the chain I can cypher out for myself but am not too clear on possible effects on the ring dimensions. Is the ring smaller, the bore bigger, bad Luigied rings in the first place?

I just wanted to be sure that someone does not confuse roller followers and ring wear. The ring wear was covered in another thread. That owner added the O2 sensor fooler, and slowly filled the crankcase with raw gasoline. The lack of lube wore the rings, bearings, chains,etc. I don't recall the exact comments but I think the rings suffered the most wear.
I think Vasco was reusing a lot of those photos from that project to go over the rollerisation, so stuck some of them in here.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: cruzziguzzi on October 09, 2015, 10:55:25 AM
I just wanted to be sure that someone does not confuse roller followers and ring wear. The ring wear was covered in another thread. That owner added the O2 sensor fooler, and slowly filled the crankcase with raw gasoline. The lack of lube wore the rings, bearings, chains,etc. I don't recall the exact comments but I think the rings suffered the most wear.
I think Vasco was reusing a lot of those photos from that project to go over the rollerisation, so stuck some of them in here.

Thanks Wayne. I'll look back for these other bits then. I had no idea that the effect might be that dramatic.

Normally, I have been generally blowing off these roller threads as I felt myself functionally immune to them through lack of likelihood in my ownership of one. A friend recently though, has been tempting me with a threateningly low priced Daytona so now I'm more curious.

Pete's near religious railing against these devices takes on an even stronger tone now.

Todd.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 11, 2015, 12:19:52 AM
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/766/22909986486_9fe3bb5c77.jpg)

Just to reprise this thread i thought I'd add a few more pics of the actual rocker swap. Its not difficult at all but for those who want to do it themselves it might be useful. This is an 'A' kit motor but the principles are identical on all. Have to go out now but i'll add a bit of blurb later if people think it necessary.

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5806/22517667808_8ecbfb4c13.jpg)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5795/22922546262_af8e755b00.jpg)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5794/22543821029_896c58a5c3.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/710/22747945580_e78e25d20d.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/616/22517601327_8132f3d2fc.jpg)

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5780/22935959155_22277ee806.jpg)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pauldaytona on November 11, 2015, 01:53:12 AM
I regard to the spring shims, if you take a look at the parts lists from the stelvio, you can see model 2008(2009 for the ones far from factory) is the only one that does not have shims. the 2009 and later do have shims from Mandello. So shims have nothing to do with the rollers.   
If you took the time looking at parts lists, have you learned more about the shims?

 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 11, 2015, 03:26:43 AM
Paul, I've looked at the parts lists and the service bulletins, I've looked at them a lot, a real lot.

I think the parts list in and of itself isn't a good guide. Odd though the shim listings are.

What you need to look at, and examine the motivation for, is the marking of the cylinder heads, their relevance to the required upgrade kit.

There are four kits.

The A kit is for the last of the flat tappet bikes with the 'Floating' rocker covers, the heads are shimmed ex-factory, (At least I have to believe they are as the alternative is different springs which aren't listed until 2015MY.)

B Kit is the sort of *Intermediate* kit for bikes produced after the factory had abandoned the idea of getting the flats to work but they started fitting the shims having done the sums on what would be needed for using the heavier roller tappets.

C kit is the full, roll yer shoulders in, we screwed up, kit for early, pre July-ish 2010 bikes which need the heads off for shimming and all the fruit.

D kit is an orphan for 1200 Sport but it seems none of these, even after mid 2010, had shims on the inlet springs! WTF was all that about???

Really, I fear your suggestion that only a few models are 'Shimless' is wrong. It is only a very few models, probably those models of Stelvio that you mention that seem to have the shims. I can screenshot a variety of pages if you wish so people can see for themselves but I'm busy as a dog with three dicks at the moment so I'd prefer not.

BTW I have to email you some stuff WRT Piaggio.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: boatdetective on November 11, 2015, 05:46:27 AM
Pete,
I don't have a flat tappet 8V- but I still love your write up. Excellent!

A question- what sort of money is it to buy these kits?   I was wondering as there seem to be 2009 8V Grisos hitting the market and I assume many have not had the work done. I'm the sort who would thoroughly enjoy doing it. However, I don't know if sellers would be willing to buy the kit to sell the bike.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on November 11, 2015, 07:54:34 AM
I paid $1400.00 us for my c kit for my 09 griso. Had it in two weeks from somewhat local dealer.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: canuguzzi on November 11, 2015, 10:40:19 AM
Given the info on the bottom ends now, I can't imagine wanting to buy a dealer upgraded 8V as how many would take the time to clean out all the internals and how would you even begin to inspect for the same?

You buy an upgraded roller bike only to have the bottom go to the farm. Granted not everyone will know but since WG is easily searchable via our friend Google, it isn't a secret.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: molly on November 11, 2015, 10:49:31 AM
Looks like you can't win with the flat tappet motors unless you have a bike with very early stage damage. How you could convince a well informed punter to buy it from you is another matter.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Demar on November 11, 2015, 11:28:19 AM
Looks like you can't win with the flat tappet motors unless you have a bike with very early stage damage. How you could convince a well informed punter to buy it from you is another matter.

The 2012 model year bikes will be a grey area. How will a buyer know for sure it came with factory rollers? VIN numbers maybe, maybe.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: rboe on November 11, 2015, 11:31:17 AM
Pull the valve covers, by inspection you can tell if they are rollerised.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Demar on November 11, 2015, 11:52:26 AM
Pull the valve covers, by inspection you can tell if they are rollerised.

I was talking about resale and how a potential buyer could determine if the 2012 bike came with factory rollers or was rollerised. As a seller I could state that it came with factory rollers when in fact it was a roller conversion after delivery. You can't tell that by looking. Could affect the resale value of 2012 bikes.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 11, 2015, 12:49:55 PM
Looks like you can't win with the flat tappet motors unless you have a bike with very early stage damage. How you could convince a well informed punter to buy it from you is another matter.

Dave, the fact I've seen three failures doesn't mean that all converted bikes are going to fail. I just mentioned it in the interest of 'full disclosure'. My failure may well of had another cause. As for the other two? They were both 2010 green 'Tenni' models. You could just as logically say all Tenni's are going to fail!

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on November 11, 2015, 03:25:48 PM
I was talking about resale and how a potential buyer could determine if the 2012 bike came with factory rollers or was rollerised. As a seller I could state that it came with factory rollers when in fact it was a roller conversion after delivery. You can't tell that by looking. Could affect the resale value of 2012 bikes.

The way I see it Demar that horse has already left the barn. What ever affect the tappet issue has had on resale of any pre-2013 8V has pretty much taken place. If you trust the individual you are buying it from and the bike suits you pay the going rate. If you are buying from a stranger or on line then offer a price that reflects the chance you feel you are taking. Or if you are the faint of heart type then best not buy one at all. You gotta be a tough SOB to own one of these babies.  :grin:   
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 11, 2015, 08:47:04 PM
I just picked up a 2009 Flattie for my mate Dave for $7,800AU which I thought was a fair price. First thing I'll be doing is rollerising it for him, chances are it'll be showing signs of wear so I'll slap in a claim on it. Dave's a builder. The barter system works well between us :laugh:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: 56Pan on November 11, 2015, 08:58:15 PM
Pull the valve covers, by inspection you can tell if they are rollerised.

You can't trust the VIN method.  Someone here posted the list of VIN's from MG a while back for the 2012 Norges with rollers.  My 2012 was several numbers too early and should have had flat tappets according to the list.  But I pulled a valve cover and the engine had the roller lifters.  The dealer told me it did, but I trusted them as far as I could spit. Just pull a valve cover.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on November 11, 2015, 09:29:18 PM
Pete, after doing a number of roller conversions have you come up with a standard of practice in regards to a flush of the oil cooler or sump? Or is that only dependent on the amount of tappet wear discovered case by case? Does the factory have any expectations in this regard? I did change my oil and filter but did not do anything besides that as I believe I had caught the wear early on. I cant help but wonder about that. I think once the season ends here soon I will drop the sump and scrub it out ,at that point would it make sense to delve any further? Perhaps flush the o.c. or  inspect the shells? I have put another 1,000 miles on the clock post rollerizing and seem to have no issues .  thanks as always, dave   
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 11, 2015, 10:21:53 PM
I wish I knew Dave, I really do.

My current modus operandi is to always drop the sump, it's no more difficult than changing the filter on an old Tonti. If it looks OK and I've only seen early wear then I just clean it out, do another oil change after a couple of hours work and call it quits. If the tappets are dished with no remaining DLC and wear is extensive I'll pull the cooler and lines and back-flush the lot.

The biggest question though is going to be has the pump been damaged? On Mak S's bike when it did its big ends I was in an adage over whether to replace the pump but in the end opted to do so simply because it was a comaratively small addition to the overall cost of the rebuild.

The choice is of course yours but in your circumstances I'd drop the sump and have a look. If you have time on your hands drop the spacer (AND EXAMINE THE GASKET AROUND THE FEED GALLERIES AS THESE HAVE BEEN KNOWN TO BLOW OUT!) and drop the rod caps and examine the shells. The shells are cheap. The bolts not so much! But if your shells haven't failed then there will be no need to strip the motor to close and grind the rods and linished the crank. What causes the bad damage is excess clearance causing rod hammer, that will ovalised the big ends and after that it's all over red rover as the oil can no longer wedge properly.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 15, 2015, 02:57:52 PM
Kit C is in.


(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/20151115_150937.jpg)

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: rboe on November 15, 2015, 03:29:17 PM
After an inspection and photo's sent to the Mothership, my bike has been approved for rollerization. Waiting for the bits to show. A bit over 10K miles, 2012.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 15, 2015, 07:30:19 PM
MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU CLEAN THE SUMP THOROUGHLY! IF YOUR TAPPETS ARE MORE THAN A TINY BIT WORN I STRONGLY SUGGEST BACK FLUSHING THE COOLER AND INSPECTING THE OIL PUMP. PULLED THE ROD CAPS ON RALF'S BIKE THIS MORNING. DEAD AS THE PROVERBIAL DOORNAIL.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on November 15, 2015, 07:58:47 PM
Hear you loud and clear Pete,thanks for the heads up.I just got my gaskets for the sump and spacer and will soon be doing as you suggest. What is the easiest way to flush the o.c. without any specialized apparatus? Also will I need further gaskets to inspect the oil pumps? I suppose I should also order new rod bolts and mains no? Tanks  dave
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 15, 2015, 08:52:57 PM
MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU CLEAN THE SUMP THOROUGHLY! IF YOUR TAPPETS ARE MORE THAN A TINY BIT WORN I STRONGLY SUGGEST BACK FLUSHING THE COOLER AND INSPECTING THE OIL PUMP. PULLED THE ROD CAPS ON RALF'S BIKE THIS MORNING. DEAD AS THE PROVERBIAL DOORNAIL.

Sad news.
And next are the front and rear main bearings.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: canuguzzi on November 15, 2015, 09:22:39 PM
Sad news.
And next are the front and rear main bearings.

Pretty unbelievable for the bikes with what amounts to one summer riding season and you're into rebuilding the engine. Downright shameful. Not the budget model line, but supposedly top of the line.

Brand damaging. Couldn't give me a 2012. Even with the fix, unless you know for a fact it was done right and other things checked, its no better than it was before, just other things to go wrong.

One reason there are likely a lot of one time only MG riders.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 15, 2015, 11:12:41 PM
Sad news.
And next are the front and rear main bearings.

And the front is integral to the case and supposedly requires replacement of said case. Bollocks to that. A 'Push in and pin' solution will be achieved if needed but on Mark's bike the damage was, surprisingly, limited to the big ends. I'm hoping that Ralf's likewise will require nothing more than a linish of the crankpin, (Where the hell did Franklin come from?) and closing and grinding the rods coupled with a thorough clean out.

What shits me is the factory must know the risks. They have obviously done the sums and hung a certain number of their customers out to dry, presumably they are acceptable 'Collateral Damage'. The word I'd usually use to describe such conduct would probably get me moderated into oblivion so I'll just shut up and grind my teeth.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: oldbike54 on November 15, 2015, 11:25:18 PM
 In this case Pete , we would probably cut you some slack , however thanks for not saying it  :grin:

  Dusty
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Aaron D. on November 16, 2015, 06:20:54 AM
I wonder if it is the carbon, not the metal doing the damage. The carbon would be a little bit of lapping compound. I would think the filter would have done a better job.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on November 16, 2015, 09:40:27 AM
I wonder if it is the carbon, not the metal doing the damage. The carbon would be a little bit of lapping compound. I would think the filter would have done a better job.
First I am NOT disputing anything Pete has suggested be done and will be following his suggestions pretty much to the letter concerning my rollerized 12' NTX. But some more discussion on the bottom end damage issue could be enlightening. If as Aaron is saying the damage is being caused by the dlc (in my bike no metal wear was present on the tappets, just missing dlc) and the oil filter is not, for what ever reason, catching it. Why haven't we seen bikes like mine at 10k plus miles with big end failures? Obviously dlc has been running around in my engine for some time before I did the inspection and change at 16k miles. I  am now as I said going to look any way but what do those looking at this think?
 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 16, 2015, 11:08:09 AM
At the moment I'm just reporting what I'm finding. I have no categorical 'Smoking gun' that can be isolated and held up as a definitive cause. All I'm trying to do is save other people the expense and heartbreak of going through a similar experience.

There is definite particulate damage, there are also signs of oil starvation. In Ralf's case the failure was sudden, with both Mark's and mine it was gradual and got increasingly more and more noticeable that something was awry until the knocking confirmed my fears.

On a healthy engine once rollerised they tend to be significantly quieter than a Flattie. The roller tappets make a distinctive 'Whickering' sound. On all three of the bikes that have failed, if my memory serves me correctly, they remained noisy. Also notable was, with hindsight, how much the engine's performance was impaired. In my case my bike would still wheelie like a bastard when provoked but it also let you know it was working hard. With the new engine everything is much smoother and more linear, there must of been some substantial frictional losses occurring before it became terminal. While picking this sort of stuff up is going to be very subjective the only way one can build up a 'Library' of data is be experience and this is something that I am, unfortunately, doing right now.

As I've said before while I think owners have been treated very shabbily on this, especially those who bought bikes between mid 2010 and mid 2012, rollerising BEFORE failure is much more likely to have a positive outcome than waiting for things to go tits up.

Pete

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on November 16, 2015, 09:02:00 PM
Pretty unbelievable for the bikes with what amounts to one summer riding season and you're into rebuilding the engine. Downright shameful. Not the budget model line, but supposedly top of the line.

Brand damaging. Couldn't give me a 2012. Even with the fix, unless you know for a fact it was done right and other things checked, its no better than it was before, just other things to go wrong.

One reason there are likely a lot of one time only MG riders.

OK NP,
I was going to give you my rollerized 2012' just to be rid of the headaches but not now. Guess I will just have to keep it and fix the darn thing.  :boozing:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 16, 2015, 11:30:10 PM
I suggest you just insure it well and burn it........



















NOT,  :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Larry on November 17, 2015, 01:20:29 AM
I suggest you just insure it well and burn it........



















NOT,  :evil:

Pete


mmm. mine is   :evil:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: guzzisteve on November 17, 2015, 05:50:40 AM
Pete,      I was told by the Rep to document everything on the stuff here in the states. Got one to look at now, actually 2 coming up.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 17, 2015, 06:05:54 AM
Where are you working now Steve? I thought you'd jumped the shark and gone to work at a Harley shop?

Look, if I can help in any way please feel free to bounce ideas off me. I'm pretty much at a loss as to why there seem to be so many random factors in the failures.

One thing that I was considering is that the beginning of the failures I've seen in the last year coincided with my chosen oil supplier ceasing production of the lubricant I'd used for the entirety of the 8V motor's life. Having said that I remain deeply sceptical about that factor having any relevance or validity.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 17, 2015, 06:22:56 AM

Quote
I'm pretty much at a loss as to why there seem to be so many random factors in the failures.

 :evil:
Quote
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c294/elwood59/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/elwood59/media/Lario/1-002_zps3fkov16s.jpg.html)

 :smiley:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 17, 2015, 06:26:49 AM
Arse! :boozing:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pyoungbl on November 17, 2015, 06:41:04 AM
Pete, et al;
     I wonder if the flat tappet failure is due to the fact that each tappet is opening two valves and thus compressing twice the spring pressure. The actual rocker arm assembly might also be part of the problem due to its geometry.  Truth be told, I'm grasping at straws here!

Peter Y.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 17, 2015, 06:51:43 AM
Spring pressure really isn't a problem. Due to the small mass of the valves and the variable rate of the beehive springs loadings are pretty light, (I've established this in the time honoured manner of hammer biffing and palm heel depression, one day I'll actually get some figures at the engine shop but as its not vital I can't be arsed. :laugh:).

The rocker geometry? Dunno for sure but the old Hi-Cams worked their rockers hard enough to snap them if used hard. Ratio is different with the Nuovo Hi-Cam but even so the spring pressure and valve train weight in the old engine was much higher but their tappets didn't fail. Cams weren't as odd though.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: molly on November 17, 2015, 06:53:19 AM
You wouldn't have thought that such small amounts of metallic particles in the oil would do so much damage considering he build  up you often see on magnetic sump bolts.
Did the bearing  failures relate to bikes with DLC coatings? I ask this this because DLC particles are considered highly abrasive when mixed with engine oil.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: guzzisteve on November 17, 2015, 07:18:29 AM
"Where are you working now Steve?"  Just 1 day a week, got a real good apprentice working w/me. He's been to the school to familiarize w/product.       
http://www.mariettasportscar.com/sportscar-dealer-marietta/     
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on November 17, 2015, 07:35:14 AM
It seems apparent that most of the cams involved with early tappet failure show mild heat tingeing on the noses but no significant scoring . That gives me hope that the same will be the case with the crank journals as perhaps any particulate wear will be on the softer shell if caught early. Again it seems wise to inspect  preemptively to try and  prevent more significant damage. I look forward to giving mine a thorough douching and looksee. It's odd that the griso pdf manual shows an oil thermostat in the sump. whats up with that? I did just check my valve gaps after 1200 miles since rollerizing and they remain spot on. However I also found the front half of both valve covers lined with mayo. It had disappeared all summer but is now back with the cool temps.  I have reinstalled the o.c. baffle and although the oil temp comes up quickly, it takes a prolonged thrashing to get the valve covers hot. As soon as I get all the required gaskets ect. I will be taking a look. Is it possible to check the rods for oval wear without pulling them out from the top?   dave   
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Aaron D. on November 17, 2015, 07:58:51 AM
:evil:
 :smiley:

Oh now that's just mean!

Funny, though!
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 19, 2015, 01:07:23 PM
I thought I read somewhere/someone, suggesting using a different valve clearance after converting to rollers. But now I can't find that info.
 
Also, Pete, I plan to pull a rob cap to inspect the bearings. Have you noticed more damage to the front, versus the rear, on the damaged ones? If so I will just pull that one.

Thanks.
 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 19, 2015, 02:05:17 PM
Roller engine clearances are 4 & 6 cold and they open up appreciably when hot! Go figure!

Rear rod bearings have been worse on the ones I've seen let go. Note the crank is colour coded so if you do decide to fling in a new set of shells make sure you get the right ones! The differences are only fractions of thou but best to be *Right*. I'd also strongly recommend replacing the bolts, they are torqued to something outrageous and I never re-use rod bolts on principle.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Muzz on November 19, 2015, 03:06:53 PM
One thing that I was considering is that the beginning of the failures I've seen in the last year coincided with my chosen oil supplier ceasing production of the lubricant I'd used for the entirety of the 8V motor's life. Having said that I remain deeply sceptical about that factor having any relevance or validity.

Pete

Pete, are you talking about the firm starting with "P" who used to make a 10W/60 specifically for motorcycles but have since altered the weight?

I have a pack of Sin 10 waiting in the wings; I was actually going to pm you to ask what you have changed to.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 19, 2015, 03:19:49 PM
When they stopped making the 10/70 I started seeing failures. Is it connected? I doubt it but it is a strange coincidence innit?

I now use 10 Tenths premium 10, the replacement 10/60.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Muzz on November 19, 2015, 03:40:01 PM
When they stopped making the 10/70 I started seeing failures. Is it connected? I doubt it but it is a strange coincidence innit?

I now use 10 Tenths premium 10, the replacement 10/60.

Pete

Thanks Pete.  I have a few miles to go of course with a 5lit pack in stock and only requiring 1.8lits for a fill. The one you mention is the one that their site suggests.  I guess that the lighter weight would still be fine with our overall lower temps over here compared with Oz.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 26, 2015, 08:03:11 PM
Well, I was finally able to spend some time in the garage. I finished up the right side , then pulled the left side, after spending a lot of time collapsing the cam tensioner with care.
The left had not been showing any measurable signs of wear. But the exhaust follower is toast.......

I have a mediocre photo that I added.

So what the heck is going on with the exhaust side. I believe Pete also mentioned that the exhaust was more likely to fail. Yet it is a smaller valve.
Odd.

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/20151126_191944.jpg)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 26, 2015, 08:28:19 PM
My guess would be more heat. Welcome to my world....

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5700/23335841095_3a6aafe937_b.jpg)

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucky phil on November 26, 2015, 09:19:53 PM
Well, I was finally able to spend some time in the garage. I finished up the right side , then pulled the left side, after spending a lot of time collapsing the cam tensioner with care.
The left had not been showing any measurable signs of wear. But the exhaust follower is toast.......

I have a mediocre photo that I added.

So what the heck is going on with the exhaust side. I believe Pete also mentioned that the exhaust was more likely to fail. Yet it is a smaller valve.
Odd.

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/20151126_191944.jpg)
Remember although the exhaust valve is smaller and lighter it also has to open the valve against the remanents of comustion pressure BBDC wich could well be 200-300 psi or more.

Ciao
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucky phil on November 26, 2015, 09:40:15 PM
When they stopped making the 10/70 I started seeing failures. Is it connected? I doubt it but it is a strange coincidence innit?

I now use 10 Tenths premium 10, the replacement 10/60.

Pete
I know Guzzi recomment 10W-60 weight oil for these engines but in my opinion for what its worth I think a 60 weight oil is a joke.
You cant use the bearing loading argument for it and a 40 weight oil would not only have better flow rate through the exhaust oil cooling passages ( with no appreciable loss in heat carrying ability) and therefore cool the head better but it would also have better characteristics all around.
And before I'm accused of the old "so you think you know more than the designer" argument just remember the "designer" gave you the failing tappets in the first place and the use of DLC coating.
In case you wonder about my scepticism on designers I was considering DLC for the lifters and cams in the Daytona engine I'm building but 30 min reaserch on the internet with professional US based V8 race engine builders cured me of that notion.
You sometimes wonder about these factory guys.   
Mobil 1 0W-40 full group 4 synthetic would be perfect, i would  think

Ciao
 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Aaron D. on November 26, 2015, 10:54:45 PM
You may be right, Phil-I hear Honda designed the CG125 with OHV to improve lubrication of the cam as CB125 riders (OHC) didn't change oil or check oil, and the cams wore out.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 26, 2015, 11:23:45 PM
Remember although the exhaust valve is smaller and lighter it also has to open the valve against the remanents of comustion pressure BBDC wich could well be 200-300 psi or more.

Ciao

Yup, hadn't thought of that.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: molly on November 27, 2015, 04:28:24 AM
My guess would be more heat. Welcome to my world....

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5700/23335841095_3a6aafe937_b.jpg)

Pete
]]

My local Guzzi dealer as a collection like that too Pete. He has been out of denial for sometime and is rollerising anything with flat tappets that comes his way.
His latest pet theory is the overhang between the cam chain sprocket and the lobes. I tend not to comment when he mentions possible causes it only leads to a little black cloud descending over us.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on November 27, 2015, 08:59:50 AM
Pete ,  are you replacing the cams on all or the roller swaps? dave
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 27, 2015, 10:06:58 AM
Roller cam profiles are different to flat tappet profiles due to how the follower actually rides the cam so you can't use flat tappet cams with roller tappets.

Apart from this the tappets themselves are physically very different so when you do the swap you actually replace the entire cambox. The way the camshafts are preloaded to eliminate end float is also different. The only parts of the entire assemblies that is re-used are the rockers and alignment/oil feed dowels.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 27, 2015, 02:00:23 PM
The way the camshafts are preloaded to eliminate end float is also different.

And I hope the 'cement mixer' rattle goes away with that.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on November 27, 2015, 03:01:35 PM
Not wanting to promote another hysterical hissy-fit from the delicate and paranoid but *IN MY EXPERIENCE a healthy engine when rollerised is substantially quieter than an A5 or early A8 with flatties. The AA's seem to have been a lot quieter, as do the later A8's.

On the three machines I've rollerised that subsequently ran their big ends the one thing they had in common was that they remained noisy and that noise, especially on Mark S's bike really sounded like top end rather than bottom end knock. Why? No idea! Perhaps the camchain tunnel allows the noise to *Move* so it appears more evident from the rocker area? Even a stethoscope seemed to indicate top end rather than bottom. It got progressively worse though and eventually we both agreed I had to go in and that's when the story started unfolding. Mine I think was already well on the way before I rollerised it. Ralf's, while quieter was still louder than other *Good* engine's I've converted. His was also the only machine that suffered a sudden catastrophic failure. There is no denying the motor is tough! To keep going with big end damage like this is truly extraordinary!

Generally speaking in the engines I've done that have *Sounded right* from the get go the top end racket of the A5's is all but gone and will be replaced by a very distinctive sound I can only describe as a 'Whickering' which I think is made up of a mixture of the sound of the cam chains whirring and the rollers, errr? 'Rolling'. :laugh: it's one of those noises you'll recognise as soon as you hear it and know what I'm talking about! :thumb:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Muzz on November 27, 2015, 04:36:02 PM
Roller cam profiles are different to flat tappet profiles due to how the follower actually rides the cam so you can't use flat tappet cams with roller tappets.

Pete

Years ago (and I mean about thirty) I read a book written by one Woctaw Nawotny.  I was trying to organise a more mellow cam for the AJS 7R that I was shoe horning into my G12 frame. He was the designer of many engines including the Tatra flat10 aircooled diesel and the Jawa twin 500 OHC racer amongst others. He got in to the causes of the OHC gear failures on the early Jawa race motors and the differences in cam profiles between flat tappet and roller set ups.

In the Jawa's case it proved to be the acceleration and in particular the de-acceleration as it came off the cam flank.  There was a brief moment on the way down that the follower left the cam, and over a period of time it caused a failure at the point where contact was remade.  A subtle change to the profile which still left the cam timing the same and the problem went away. Is it the same reason? Insert Chuck's <shrug>.

Never got the cam sorted and someone made me an offer for the two motors I had that I could not refuse. Every now and then I wish I still had them. :cry:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on November 27, 2015, 04:53:28 PM
Pete ,  are you replacing the cams on all or the roller swaps? dave


Sorry Pete,  I was mistakenly thinking it was the cams I reused on mine but it was only the rockers. Thanks for jogging whats left of my memory. I did recently drop the sump and oil cooler for a thorough cleaning and found nothing remarkable. Also seems no louder than it's always been, it is an a5 and still runs as strong as ever. I opted to skip on dropping the spacer and inspecting the shells after finding the sump and filter remarkably clean. I guess only more miles will determine if I made the right call. I will keep a keen ear tuned for any new knocking. Thanks for all the follow up.   dave
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 03, 2015, 11:08:42 AM
So I finally have kit C installed. I am glad I wasn't in a hurry.
I won't go over the part where my homemade valve spring compressor slipped and sent the tiny collets flying across the garage. :violent1:

Around August, I found the right exhaust valve clearance had opened a good bit. I adjusted it. A couple hundred miles larger, it had changed a lot again. Per instruction from the mechanic at the shop, I pulled the cam. Not too hard to do, and found the tappet coating gone.
That mechanic quit. But I have his emails. Email is a good thing.

I find that I need "Kit C". The new mechanic couldn't get the kit, because there was a secret open campaign on my bike. There is a center stand upgrade that I was never told about. He orders that, and a few weeks later, that comes in.
Once that was in, we still couldn't get the kit because there was a double secret campaign on my bike. An ECU condom had to be install. Later, that comes in.
Two months has passed, and I had to have surgery, so I am out of commission for weeks.
Once I get back on my feet, I start talking to them again about getting the kit. No can do, since I pulled the cam, I broke the triple secret rule that says the owner shall not pull the cam. So I continue to talk to them, letting them know that I WAS simply following the instructions that I had been given by a Piaggio mechanic. And my Stelvio right cylinder, gas tank, etc., is scattered around my garage so it is immobile. I always keep the conversations friendly. I find you get more done when you make friends. And I was asking them for a freebie.
It took some time, which I had plenty of as I was recovering from surgery, but they came through and allowed the order for Kit C.
A couple of weeks later, and it comes in. I then install the parts per Vasco's awesome instructs. (thanks Pete, very helpful)

So it is now alive and pretty well. I'm still waiting on back ordered rod bolts, to inspect the bearings for contamination. Hopefully that isn't an issue.

I DO appreciate Piaggio coming through with parts for a 6 years old, 50,000 mile bike. I know for a fact that Honda will tell you to pound sand on a 3 year old bike with just 6,000 miles on it when the cam fails. The grass is not greener on the other side.
Why does Piaggio make it such a time consumer for their dealers. The new mechanic really struggled to learn the goofy system, and the hidden secret campaigns that prevented the order from being entered. If it is a required campaign, then make it required and tell me about it. If it is just some optional campaign, then don't make it required. Geez.
I DO appreciate the help the new mechanic give me. His name is Dean Graham and he has been around airhead beemers for years. Hopefully he stays around Guzzidom and doesn't run away from Piaggio, but I wouldn't blame him if he did.
And I can't overlook Anthony at Riders Hill. He wasn't directly involved, but every time I stopped at Riders Hill, he was concerned that I was getting the parts. I'll miss those guys.

If you install the kit, it will make a LOT of noise when hot if you use clearances for the exhaust valves that are a bit over .006".
If you have kit C, clean all of the goo out of the stepper motor circuit while you are in there.

And a word of warning, if you are doing it yourself, get approval in writing from the regional rep. If you don't, don't expect to get the parts.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 03, 2015, 11:42:54 AM
So, how are you getting along, Wayne?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 03, 2015, 12:48:38 PM
So, how are you getting along, Wayne?

It is a little hard to start. I think the ECU needs to learn the new mixture.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 03, 2015, 01:07:18 PM
It is a little hard to start. I think the ECU needs to learn the new mixture.
Maybe needs a bump start?  :violent1:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 03, 2015, 01:50:35 PM
Maybe needs a bump start?  :violent1:

I thought about that, sitting in the rain, at 1 am, in the parking lot,  as I was trying to leave work. But then I realized that I would then simply then be at the bottom of a hill, in the dark, in the rain, at 1am. Trying to push that pig back up the hill with healing neck bones. Probably a bad idea. :boozing:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on December 03, 2015, 02:06:39 PM
Some models require re-mapping after rollerisation. Can't remember if the early Stelvios fall into that category? Thing is I haven't used a factory map for eons, they're at best average. Would you like me to flip you Mark's single lambda non ABS Stelvio map to try?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 03, 2015, 02:20:23 PM
Some models require re-mapping after rollerisation. Can't remember if the early Stelvios fall into that category? Thing is I haven't used a factory map for eons, they're at best average. Would you like me to flip you Mark's single lambda non ABS Stelvio map to try?

I think I have a handle on that for now Pete. I have a couple of lambda off maps already. I'll get back to you later if I need it.

I cleared the ECU learned parameters. (I think) I reset the TPS of course. I found that I had the valve clearances a bit too wide (I had a heavy layer of assemble lube on everything initially) Also, I had the spark plug covers off, and as noted it was raining, so arcing at the caps may have also been involved.
In the dry, and after resetting the valve clearances, and (maybe) the ECU learned a new fuel trim, all is well. Or should I say, all is back to stock like conditions. Stock always did have a bit of a cold start issue.

Once I have the hardware stable, I may then tweak the map.
 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on December 03, 2015, 02:55:24 PM
The one I did yesterday we broke open the 'C' kit and Lo and behold one of the bags supposed to contain a valve shim was still perfectly sealed........ But empty! :rolleyes: how do they manage to do that? Ship a bag of air halfway round the world! Luckily I had *Another* kit I raided for the shim but really! It is a bit hopeless! :grin:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on December 03, 2015, 03:57:48 PM
And there is a bag, per o-ring, for the valve covers.
Really. Just put two or three orings in a bag and save the time and effort.
I wonder how many dollars they spent, saving those pennies? Or Euros I guess.

Are you seeing a lot of variation in head gasket thickness? Both of mine were the thinnest versions.



Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: tazio on December 03, 2015, 04:01:52 PM
So, how are you getting along, Wayne?
could be wrong, but Mr.Chuck may have been referencing your surgery outcome.
 How has that turned out, Wayne?
"Keeping your head on a swivel" whilst riding, and all that.??
Hoping for full recovery.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Vasco DG on December 03, 2015, 04:13:54 PM
And there is a bag, per o-ring, for the valve covers.
Really. Just put two or three orings in a bag and save the time and effort.
I wonder how many dollars they spent, saving those pennies? Or Euros I guess.

Are you seeing a lot of variation in head gasket thickness? Both of mine were the thinnest versions.

My 'C' kits come with all three thicknesses and they all seem to be fairly accurate to spec. Personally I'd prefer it if the parts droid just put the right number of bloody shims in a kit rather than a polythene bag full of his farts!
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: canuck1969 on March 06, 2016, 02:36:08 PM
Just finished rollerizing my 2012 Stelvio.  All went well with the swap and no issues but I did notice one thing.  I have noticed that the cam chain clatter on cold startup on the right cylinder is more pronounced now.  Only does it for a second while the tensioners pump up.  If I turn the bike off and then back on again the chatter is gone as one would expect. If I leave it for 10 minutes or so and try again I get a very short clatter as the tensioners bleed down.   

No concern as the tensioners are doing what they are supposed to do and know this is completely normal as the sound goes away within a second, but has anyone else noticed this after their conversion.  May just be my mind playing tricks on me after preforming major surgery on the bike.  Only thing I can think of is the initial oil resistance has gone down causing it to take a little longer to pump up, but can't imagine from where (roller vs flat tappet oiling,....extra spark plug tube in the cam box.....???)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 06, 2016, 02:51:00 PM
Yup, I've noticed it too, no explanation I can think of as none of the bits that are changed should have any relevance to how long the tensioners take to pump up. Later engines also use a much larger reservoir in the barrel and these seem to be noisier on start up as well. I have no idea why the change was instituted as the earlier *Small* reservoir system never seemed to cause any problems I'm aware of.

Anyway, it's not something I plan on fretting about.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Xlratr on March 06, 2016, 02:54:42 PM
Same here. Just for a second.
John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: canuck1969 on March 06, 2016, 03:01:55 PM
Yup, I've noticed it too, no explanation I can think of as none of the bits that are changed should have any relevance to how long the tensioners take to pump up. Later engines also use a much larger reservoir in the barrel and these seem to be noisier on start up as well. I have no idea why the change was instituted as the earlier *Small* reservoir system never seemed to cause any problems I'm aware of.

Anyway, it's not something I plan on fretting about.

Pete

Me neither Pete, but just strange.  The 2012 does have the larger reservoir on the right.  Didn't take a close look at the difference between the cam boxes other than the big ass plug tube for the second non existence spark plug in the casting. Somehow changing the time for the overall pressure buildup in the system and therefore taking longer to build pressure in the tensioner, but who the heck knows from what.  Reduced resistance somewhere.......... ...

Like you said, nothing to fret about, but puzzling non the least.  Glad to know it wasn't my senility kicking in early.   
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on March 06, 2016, 03:26:40 PM
I have noticed that the cam chain clatter on cold startup on the right cylinder is more pronounced now.  Only does it for a second while the tensioners pump up.  If I turn the bike off and then back on again the chatter is gone as one would expect. If I leave it for 10 minutes or so and try again I get a very short clatter as the tensioners bleed down.   

Same here. I thought I was imagining it. Once pumped up, mine is quieter though. No more cam thrashing front to back to rattle around like a bunch of loose gravel.

Maybe the cams against the rollers are a touch easier to load and unload the cam chain, so it is more noticeable for that 1.43729 seconds. :smiley:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 09, 2016, 06:18:07 PM
Will be picking up my now "rollerized" Norge from Harpers tomorrow and will ride it 220 miles home. Should be a good shakedown ride. Suppose to be sunny, 60s and with a light tail wind. Doesn't get much better than that. :thumb:
GliderJohn
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: twowings on March 09, 2016, 06:39:06 PM
Congratulations!  I wouldn't be able to sleep tonight.... :thumb:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 09, 2016, 08:44:29 PM
Will be picking up my now "rollerized" Norge from Harpers tomorrow and will ride it 220 miles home. Should be a good shakedown ride. Suppose to be sunny, 60s and with a light tail wind. Doesn't get much better than that. :thumb:
GliderJohn

Just remember John, no need to be gentle with it, just ride it *Normally*. Last 1200 Sport I did it did 193 on the break in. I left it as elapsed speed on the dash..... :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 09, 2016, 08:54:48 PM
Quote
Just remember John, no need to be gentle with it, just ride it *Normally*. Last 1200 Sport I did it did 193 on the break in. I left it as elapsed speed on the dash..... :evil:

Pete

I just have to remember to go slow enough most of the time so that my wife can keep me in sight following me in her Honda Accord until we get closer to familiar territory, then I can thrash it a bit.  :grin:
GliderJohn
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on March 09, 2016, 09:06:50 PM
Just finished rollerizing my 2012 Stelvio.  All went well with the swap and no issues but I did notice one thing.  I have noticed that the cam chain clatter on cold startup on the right cylinder is more pronounced now.  Only does it for a second while the tensioners pump up.  If I turn the bike off and then back on again the chatter is gone as one would expect. If I leave it for 10 minutes or so and try again I get a very short clatter as the tensioners bleed down.   

No concern as the tensioners are doing what they are supposed to do and know this is completely normal as the sound goes away within a second, but has anyone else noticed this after their conversion.  May just be my mind playing tricks on me after preforming major surgery on the bike.  Only thing I can think of is the initial oil resistance has gone down causing it to take a little longer to pump up, but can't imagine from where (roller vs flat tappet oiling,....extra spark plug tube in the cam box.....???)

Same here. Bugged me too at first. Does not seem to be an issue. 1200 miles on so far.
One question for the recently rollered. My bike is a 12' NTX. The mapping seems to be working for the most part but the popping on closing the throttle or engine braking seems to have become worse than with the flats. No that it was not present before but seems somewhat worse
now. It might just be need a TB balance or need to look at the the plug wires as they are the originals. Over all performance is OK. Any thoughts would be welcome.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 09, 2016, 10:03:40 PM
Pretty sure I know the problem. Gimme a bit of time I'll explain.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on March 09, 2016, 10:11:21 PM
Pretty sure I know the problem. Gimme a bit of time I'll explain.

Pete
All ears Pete.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: WitchCityGuzzi on March 10, 2016, 08:40:00 AM
Just finished rollerizing my 2012 Stelvio.  All went well with the swap and no issues but I did notice one thing.  I have noticed that the cam chain clatter on cold startup on the right cylinder is more pronounced now.  Only does it for a second while the tensioners pump up.  If I turn the bike off and then back on again the chatter is gone as one would expect. If I leave it for 10 minutes or so and try again I get a very short clatter as the tensioners bleed down.   

No concern as the tensioners are doing what they are supposed to do and know this is completely normal as the sound goes away within a second, but has anyone else noticed this after their conversion.  May just be my mind playing tricks on me after preforming major surgery on the bike.  Only thing I can think of is the initial oil resistance has gone down causing it to take a little longer to pump up, but can't imagine from where (roller vs flat tappet oiling,....extra spark plug tube in the cam box.....???)

My 09 as well. Sometimes takes 5 seconds or so to quiet down.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MGrego on March 10, 2016, 09:45:47 AM
2500 miles on my 8V since rollerization and I haven't noticed anything out of sorts at all.
No weird noises, no rattling timing chains, nothing --
It runs great, just like I would expect.  Yes, I hear some valve train noise, but that is a subjective assessment, and nothing that seems abnormal to me.
I'm beginning to believe it may not actually explode after all .....
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 10, 2016, 03:10:42 PM
Same here. Bugged me too at first. Does not seem to be an issue. 1200 miles on so far.
One question for the recently rollered. My bike is a 12' NTX. The mapping seems to be working for the most part but the popping on closing the throttle or engine braking seems to have become worse than with the flats. No that it was not present before but seems somewhat worse
now. It might just be need a TB balance or need to look at the the plug wires as they are the originals. Over all performance is OK. Any thoughts would be welcome.

With certain bikes, I can't offhand remember if yours is one of them, a remap is required after the rollerisation. If this hasn't been done it will cause problems. I suggest clearing the trims as a first step though.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on March 10, 2016, 05:30:54 PM
With certain bikes, I can't offhand remember if yours is one of them, a remap is required after the rollerisation. If this hasn't been done it will cause problems. I suggest clearing the trims as a first step though.

Pete

OK Pete, I am on board. Just treat me like a somewhat challenged step child. "Clear the trims"?????
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 10, 2016, 06:14:33 PM
When the bike is running a closed loop map the ECU alters the fuel delivery using input from various sensors. There are short term 'Learned' parameters that take a few minutes for the ECU to adapt delivery for and then a longer term process that occurs over a period of hours and is stored in a less *flexible* manner within the programming.

When anything to do with the tune is changed these stored parameters may no longer suit the engine's condition. Yes, eventually, the ECU will once again trim around the changes but the process can be speeded up and aided by clearing what the ECU has 'learnt' and taking the ECU's settings back to the factory's baseline. This can be done using a diagnostic tool such as P.A.D.S or Guzzidiag by choosing the 'Re-set self learning parameters' option and clicking 'Yes' but for those without access to this tooling the same result can be achieved by either disconnecting the battery for thirty seconds or pulling the main 30A fuse. The only difference is that if you do it by the second method you'll loose your time settings an will have to re-set the clock when you reconnect.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Gliderjohn on March 10, 2016, 07:18:55 PM
Rode the Norge home from Harpers this afternoon. Differences? None that I could notice overall. Whether due to the battery being disconnected or whatever, the first 30 miles or so the motor was unsettled at idile and not as smooth as before at lower speeds. After that it smoothed out and behaved well and has ran as it should with no concerns since.
Because of the oil leak and wanting the mechanic to see the situation Harpers received a very messy bike. When I picked it up today it was cleaned up very nicely. Even got the free T shirt to say I have been there and done that.
Very nice ride home. Was 62 degrees when I left Harpers and and 70 degrees when I arrived at home with high cirrus clouds and light winds.
GliderJohn
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MotoG5 on March 10, 2016, 07:34:18 PM
When the bike is running a closed loop map the ECU alters the fuel delivery using input from various sensors. There are short term 'Learned' parameters that take a few minutes for the ECU to adapt delivery for and then a longer term process that occurs over a period of hours and is stored in a less *flexible* manner within the programming.

When anything to do with the tune is changed these stored parameters may no longer suit the engine's condition. Yes, eventually, the ECU will once again trim around the changes but the process can be speeded up and aided by clearing what the ECU has 'learnt' and taking the ECU's settings back to the factory's baseline. This can be done using a diagnostic tool such as P.A.D.S or Guzzidiag by choosing the 'Re-set self learning parameters' option and clicking 'Yes' but for those without access to this tooling the same result can be achieved by either disconnecting the battery for thirty seconds or pulling the main 30A fuse. The only difference is that if you do it by the second method you'll loose your time settings an will have to re-set the clock when you reconnect.

Pete

Got it! :thumb: I have the diagnostic tool needed. I will give it a go and see what happens. Not a problem that was any kind of deal breaker but just one of those things that is kind of annoying. Using the second method is no issue either as with all the early leaking battery issues I had resetting the dashboard clock is one thing I have down pat.  :grin:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 10, 2016, 11:45:52 PM
If you have Guzzidiag and cables ask Jeff about Mark's Norge map and if it sounds like what you want just buy it. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Xlratr on March 11, 2016, 04:42:13 AM
If you have Guzzidiag and cables ask Jeff about Mark's Norge map and if it sounds like what you want just buy it. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Norge Map?? Isn't MotoG5's bike a twin probe Stelvio?
John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on March 11, 2016, 04:48:40 AM
Sorry, I lose track.....:D
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 07, 2016, 09:41:34 AM
Got the parts this week and did the job. All back together again so thought it would start it up. Turned it over with the plugs disconected and then tried with pliugs in.

Plenty of power from battery, fuel pump primes, engine tunrns over but no start.  Checked plugs -bit wet so fuel getting to them, good strong spark so why no start.

Took tank back off to check for anything loose, nothing obvious.

What now ?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Steph on May 07, 2016, 10:25:36 AM
Got the parts this week and did the job. All back together again so thought it would start it up. Turned it over with the plugs disconected and then tried with pliugs in.

Plenty of power from battery, fuel pump primes, engine tunrns over but no start.  Checked plugs -bit wet so fuel getting to them, good strong spark so why no start.

Took tank back off to check for anything loose, nothing obvious.

What now ?

I've heard that it is not a good for the electronic ignition to turn over the engine on the button with the plug disconnected. If you turn it on the button, the the plugs should be in the caps and grounded to the block or something. Can someone confirm?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 07, 2016, 11:11:27 AM
It was suggested somewhere on here to turn the engine over on the starter to get oil moving and chain tensioner repressurised ?

I took the plugs out to stop it firing, didnt think to flick the kill switch
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 07, 2016, 11:36:42 AM
Did you index the cam chains accurately ?  Check valve timing by positioning each cylinder to TDC,on compression stroke, and see that gaps appear under adjusters.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 07, 2016, 02:09:27 PM
I did the the valves, and rechecked the when i couldnt get bike to start.  I am sorry but i dont understand what you mean by indexing the chains - i ensured that the sprocket nipple was at 6 o clock both sides
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 07, 2016, 03:29:40 PM
As long as you didn't move the cylinder from TDC than yes the sprocket dowel remains at 6 o clock, Also it must be at TDC on the COMPRESSION stroke. Were you at TDC on compression stroke when you removed both cam boxes?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 07, 2016, 03:44:39 PM
I have to admit that whilst i think so i cant be sure - that was wednesday
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 07, 2016, 09:00:27 PM
Did you do one side at a time or did you turn the engine over to get the second cambox off before installing the new ones?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 08, 2016, 04:34:26 AM
HI Pete
I replaced one side at a time and then set the valves on both sides.

I noticed that when I turned it over last, a little black rubber sleeve cover shot off a sort of valve fitted on the manifold at the injector on left side. Put my finger there and turned it again and got pressure out of the valve

When you change to rollers does it affect  the valve gap ? I have used 15mm in and 20 out as before

E
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 08, 2016, 05:38:57 AM
Picture please.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 08, 2016, 08:10:08 AM
Hi Pete what specifically would you want a pic of ?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on May 08, 2016, 08:14:24 AM
A picture of the rubber sleeve that you say blow off would be nice,  where there is pressure when you turn over the motor.

Did you leave the cam sprocket in the chain the entire time while you worked on one side?

Did you do a C kit, or an A or B?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 08, 2016, 09:10:43 AM
I will get a pic and upload, it is about 1 inch long and 1/4 dia. The sprocket(s) never left the chain., had it zip tied up

it is an A kit



(http://thumb.ibb.co/fes0aa/20160508_152801_resized.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fes0aa)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 08, 2016, 12:23:03 PM
That is the port that is used to connect manometers to the manifolds to balance the throttle bodies. It should not have pressure inside it as its on the induction side. I fear that what you have done is lost the timing and bent the inlet valves so as the piston rises on the compression stroke air leaking past the bent valves is pressurising the manifold and has caused the plug to be blown off. Run a compression or leak down test. I think you're up for new valves on one side at least.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 08, 2016, 12:50:56 PM
Thanks for the help chaps, looks like I am going to have to stick it in the garage until I can afford to get someone to look at it. Buying the parts took all my expendable cash for the next few months at least

Ah well, the dangers of letting an amateur loose
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 08, 2016, 01:53:09 PM
Could be leaking on the end of the exhaust stroke, which maybe should be the compression stroke. If you had been on the TDC of the exhaust stroke, instead of the compression stroke, when you installed the left side, than the intake valve could be opening when it should be closed. You need to remove both valve covers and ensure that both rockers are in their relaxed state,with valve gaps open, when the pistons are at TDC on the compression stroke, on their respective sides. Also you can remove the flinger plate covers and inspect that the cam sprocket dowels are at 6 o clock when both intake and exhaust   valves are closed on that side and the piston is at TDC. Hopefully there has been no interfacing between valve and pistons resulting in a bent valve stem  or worse. I think you would have heard an awe full noise if that were the case, but maybe not if the contact is very light but enough to tweek a stem. I would start by verifying the proper valve timing . Don't crank the engine if you aren't sure, use a socket on the front of the crankshaft to turn the motor slowly until you are sure the valve timing is on. 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 08, 2016, 03:32:42 PM
OK Lucian, I will look at it all again.  when i finished it i hand cranked it on several revolutions to see if anything was wrong - it all turned smoothly enough.  i didnt hear anything when i was cranking it although i did think the starter sounded a wee bit slower
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on May 08, 2016, 07:31:36 PM
Well if you check the valve clearances to check for a dramatic change, that should identify a bent valve.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 08, 2016, 07:58:05 PM
Well if you check the valve clearances to check for a dramatic change, that should identify a bent valve.

Agreed but, hopefully the valves are ok and just the cam timing is off 180 degrees. Would be an easy fix then.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 08, 2016, 08:09:04 PM
It's unlikely that both sides would be off 360* and that wouldn't explain it popping off the vacuum port cover. I really hope it's something simple but I fear it probably isn't.

Also if the owner doesn't know what the vacuum ports are for how was the bike to be tuned after rollerisation? I believe the Norge needs remapping as well? Unlike the flat tappet systems all the roller cams are identical and their characteristics are different from the flat tappet cams.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 08, 2016, 08:20:09 PM
I am thinking he may have had the left bank on tdc exhaust stroke when he pulled the flatties. Wouldn't that put the left cam 180 degrees off when you installed the roller cam sprocket ?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on May 08, 2016, 08:32:55 PM
Rollerize part question.

The rubber grommet that seals the screws holding on the valve cover changed. The originals on my 2009 were part number 830249 . The roller kit has a different design. But no part number anywhere. They look like they are a better design. More 'squash' to the rubber. The originals are almost not reusable that are so poor.

Anyone have a part number for these newer parts?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 08, 2016, 08:39:14 PM
Rollerize part question.

The rubber grommet that seals the screws holding on the valve cover changed. The originals on my 2009 were part number 830249 . The roller kit has a different design. But no part number anywhere. They look like they are a better design. More 'squash' to the rubber. The originals are almost not reusable that are so poor.

Anyone have a part number for these newer parts?

The c kit for my 09 came with new seals but they looked the same as the originals. I saved the new ones and am still using the old ones.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on May 08, 2016, 08:59:46 PM
The c kit for my 09 came with new seals but they looked the same as the originals. I saved the new ones and am still using the old ones.

My originals were cupped on the top. They went on one way. The new ones can go either direction. I assume you have the new ones.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 08, 2016, 09:25:39 PM
My originals were cupped on the top. They went on one way. The new ones can go either direction. I assume you have the new ones.

I'll check them out tomorrow and let you know which ones they sent. I don't need them anyway at this point and could mail them to you if yours are toast.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 08, 2016, 09:54:07 PM
There are two types of Tampon. The early type are meant for the rocker covers that seal around the plug tube with an o-ring in the cover. The later, cupped type, are meant for the rocker covers that seal to the rocker support/cambox with the thick neoprene gasket.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 09, 2016, 09:08:27 AM
It's unlikely that both sides would be off 360* and that wouldn't explain it popping off the vacuum port cover. I really hope it's something simple but I fear it probably isn't.

Also if the owner doesn't know what the vacuum ports are for how was the bike to be tuned after rollerisation? I believe the Norge needs remapping as well? Unlike the flat tappet systems all the roller cams are identical and their characteristics are different from the flat tappet cams.

Pete

Hi Pete,  i have used Manometer before to tune up, but the nipple has looked more like t brake nipple than anything - this one looks almost surgical.

i have just realised something - memory is really crap these days.  when the guideline said set the pin to six o'clock i did just that - vertical 6 o'clock - but now think/realise it should have been set to the bottom hole which is more like 5 on the left and 7 on the right ?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 09, 2016, 11:50:44 AM
Hi Pete,  i have used Manometer before to tune up, but the nipple has looked more like t brake nipple than anything - this one looks almost surgical.

i have just realised something - memory is really crap these days.  when the guideline said set the pin to six o'clock i did just that - vertical 6 o'clock - but now think/realise it should have been set to the bottom hole which is more like 5 on the left and 7 on the right ?

There you have it.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 09, 2016, 12:13:24 PM
So..... is it a matter of resetting the sprockets and doing the valves again.   I checked the Vale gaps again,nothing noticeably changed. I guess the gap would be wider of a valve was bent ?
Turns over quite happily by hand
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: guzzisteve on May 09, 2016, 12:59:35 PM
All this talking(typing) about it, you could have redone it all by now, want to make sure, redo it-  your 1st comeback. Good Luck w/it
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 09, 2016, 01:48:31 PM
Difficult to do it when you are sixty away from the bike Steve. Better to be informed than act like the fool that I was last week
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 09, 2016, 04:29:49 PM
You may of been lucky.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 09, 2016, 06:19:58 PM
Jim Mac, Here is a step by step manual on the 8v,  go to Chapter 5 , timing. pages 51 thru 54. Should be able to put things back in order if you follow this. Note the L and R references on the cam sprockets. Early motors used one white dot for left side and two white dots for right side. Should be able to just remove the spark plugs and use a straw or small wood dowel slid into the cylinder to confirm when piston rises to peak of TDC. When you have confirmed TDC, and after removing the flinger plate covers, observe the position of the cam sprocket pin. Should be at bottom in line with the cylinder( not vertically) See page 54. and in the correct hole in the sprocket( L or R )  when in this position the gaps should be present on the valve adjusters. Hope this helps.

http://www.guzzitek.org/documents/moteur/Motor1200_8V_Course_%28GB%29.pdf

PS. It looks like they misprinted the manual regarding the right side. The cam pin should be in the R hole on the right side, not the L as printed. The picture shows it correct though. Good luck



Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 09, 2016, 06:25:07 PM
OMG   The seals I have are the same as the originals. Thin and flat on one side with a slight raised rim on the top side. I have the covers with the steel plug tube and o rings. Let me know if these are what your looking for. Doubt I'll need them.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on May 09, 2016, 07:08:05 PM
OMG   The seals I have are the same as the originals. Thin and flat on one side with a slight raised rim on the top side. I have the covers with the steel plug tube and o rings. Let me know if these are what your looking for. Doubt I'll need them.

(http://thumb.ibb.co/j3aBFa/20160509_115934.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j3aBFa)

The seals that came on mine, and I ordered a few replacements over the years that are identical, are on the left in the photo. A raised lip outside the screw head, and a small rib underneath. The screw head touches the flat rubber, then bottoms out. No real pressure on the rubber grommet.
The ones on the right are what came in kit C. The molded ridge, top and bottom, touches, then the screw goes almost a full turn, before it bottoms out. A good amount of pressure.
I just adjusted the valves, and I just oiled my Aerostitch on a long trip. So the left leg is extra waterproof now.  :boozing:
I have tossed the old ones and now only have the ones from the kit in place. I would like to have spares, since I have had bad luck with them. If I can just figure out the part numbers for them.

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 09, 2016, 08:00:23 PM
My C kit came with the old style like the ones you show on the left. Any way, even my original ones that have been re used on many valve checks are still sealing fine. Next time I go over to Seacoast I'll ask if they have the new type. Maybe two weekends from now I'll make the trip and report back.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: guzzisteve on May 09, 2016, 08:48:04 PM
Jim,  I'm 62 and still screwing up once in a while. Got 2 roller jobs waiting now but I can't work every day. Just reading about it was getting to me.  If you got the kit installed yourself you'll surely be able to sort it fine.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 10, 2016, 02:50:39 AM
Steve,  ditto on the 62 and screwing up.  if i can get it running myself then i will be a winner, if it needs to go to someone who actually knows what he is doing then he will but at least one way or the other it will get fixed - just need to find the cash if it is option two !
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 10, 2016, 02:58:11 AM
OMG   The seals I have are the same as the originals. Thin and flat on one side with a slight raised rim on the top side. I have the covers with the steel plug tube and o rings. Let me know if these are what your looking for. Doubt I'll need them.

thanks for the link Lucian, very helpful.  my sprockets have clear L and R markings and i use the straw down the plug hole method.  i have set the gaps successfully on too many past occasions to count. it was screwing up on the '6 o'clock' that got me i think.  moral so far - when you are going to do a bit of work lock the garage door and dont let people constantly interrupt you.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: steffen on May 12, 2016, 04:15:09 AM
My 2010 Griso with 20.000 km on the clock was due for service. I asked my mec to tear of the cams for inspection, although he thought it was a waste of time and money, because my valves was on spec and sounding fine.
This is what I saw

(http://thumb.ibb.co/gqmnMF/tappets.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gqmnMF)


Now photos are send to the factory, hopefully they will accept the claim, but soon I'll have the rollers on.

I'd like to thank those of you, that insisted, that the flat tappets was doomed, Pete, Molly, Pauldaytona, Beetle to name a few...  :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 12, 2016, 04:41:07 AM
i went back to step one, starting with left side.  made sure stud was set to 6 'o'clock proper and valves set on TDC compression.  over to right, adjusted the stud to same.  turned it over loads of times by hand and rechecked the TDC and valves every second cycle - all ok.  decided to take the chance and pushed the button - fiired up first time, settled into smooth running after a couple of seconds, left it to warm up, blipped the throttle lightly - all ok.  Hurrah !

glad the chains hadn't moved and all back in order.   i will now drop the sump and clean out sump and flush through before refilling with liquid gold and new filter.  then it's just a matter of putting all the panels back on.

hope it's fine now, thanks to all for help and advice - lesson learned, follow the instructions from those who know better to the letter, if in doubt ask, and dont let wife and kids constantly interrupt when trying to do anything more complicated than washing the bike.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 12, 2016, 05:56:42 AM
F*cking Golden! As I've said before, it's not a collision motor unless you do something really dumb or the entire engine is f*cked!

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 12, 2016, 06:26:24 AM
Glad to hear it! Good going. Don,t forget to put the rubber stopper back on the vacuum port. 
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 12, 2016, 06:29:18 AM
My 2010 Griso with 20.000 km on the clock was due for service. I asked my mec to tear of the cams for inspection, although he thought it was a waste of time and money, because my valves was on spec and sounding fine.
This is what I saw

(http://thumb.ibb.co/gqmnMF/tappets.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gqmnMF)


Now photos are send to the factory, hopefully they will accept the claim, but soon I'll have the rollers on.

I'd like to thank those of you, that insisted, that the flat tappets was doomed, Pete, Molly, Pauldaytona, Beetle to name a few...  :thumb: :thumb:

It looks like you caught it early . Was it worse on the left side than the right?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 12, 2016, 07:09:11 AM
i set the left up and then had to move the right sprocket about two teeth to get it to line up with stud

when i pulled the original tappets the left was much more worn than right
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: steffen on May 12, 2016, 07:51:57 AM
It looks like you caught it early . Was it worse on the left side than the right?
I hope so.
I only took one picture, but as I recall, it was same-same.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on May 12, 2016, 07:55:07 AM
Quote
if in doubt ask, and dont let wife and kids constantly interrupt
Ahhh, you have learned well, grasshopper.  :smiley: When I'm fooling with something as important as timing, I pay serious attention. Disaster avoided.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 12, 2016, 09:38:13 AM
yes, if you are going to ask other people for help or advice you should at least be prepared to fully listen (or read) the comments.   i didn't - my fault, could have been worse, glad it wasnt,   just missed a week of great weather here, which is unusual to say the least
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: MGrego on May 12, 2016, 10:21:56 AM
i went back to step one, starting with left side.  made sure stud was set to 6 'o'clock proper and valves set on TDC compression.  over to right, adjusted the stud to same.  turned it over loads of times by hand and rechecked the TDC and valves every second cycle - all ok.  decided to take the chance and pushed the button - fiired up first time, settled into smooth running after a couple of seconds, left it to warm up, blipped the throttle lightly - all ok.  Hurrah !


Glad you got it running without too much trouble !!  Good Job !!
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 12, 2016, 02:16:27 PM
Big problem nowis getting the sump dropped, bloody thing just wont seperate. 14 bolts out, cant find any hidden ones like the Cali but dont want to use firce - what am I missing ?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: lucian on May 12, 2016, 02:27:13 PM
Big problem nowis getting the sump dropped, bloody thing just wont seperate. 14 bolts out, cant find any hidden ones like the Cali but dont want to use firce - what am I missing ?

Easy does it ,there are also bolts in the center around the Oil filter area.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jim mac on May 12, 2016, 02:53:14 PM
Same as the Cali? The parts diagram i have only shows the 14 on outside.  I dont have a bench so am lying on the floor - cant get my head under

Just had a look at the Stein Dinse catalogue and see they list 4 other bolts.  Are they inside the filkter hole ?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 12, 2016, 03:18:10 PM
Run your finger around the filter pocket, you'll feel the recesses, the bolts are at the bottom of them.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: katanaman on May 16, 2016, 11:14:48 PM
Good day gents, I am wondering if there is any way to tell which kit I need without having access to the bike. I have a 2011/2012 Stelvio, orange one with cast wheels (not NTX). from memory last time I had the rocker cover off I had no separate tube for the spark plug hole and just a flat washer type seal between the spark plug hole and the rocker cover. I have been told about a separate tube with Oring seals but mine does not have this.

My bike is in a remote part of Western Australia and I am in PNG so I cant look for the small dimple on the head, or anything else  I was hoping to order one of the kits ASAP to be sent to where the bike is and I will install once I get there in about 4 weeks, but I do not want to order the wrong kit. from what I have read I would need a KIT A.... ???

I will try to get the engine or VIN number tomorrow from some paperwork back in Australia but right now I don't have much to go on. if there is any other way to tell

inside my rocker cover looks the same as this picture I got from another post
(http://thumb.ibb.co/ij0YTv/Stelvio_Cylinder_head.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ij0YTv)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 16, 2016, 11:22:51 PM
Yup, it'll be an 'A' kit. All the models with the 'Floating' rocker covers, that is the ones with the short tube and thick neoprene gasket between the cambox casting and cover are 'A' kits apart from late model 1200 Sports which require the 'D' kit.

That pic confirms what I said on the phone.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: katanaman on May 16, 2016, 11:45:19 PM
perfect, i was having a couple of doubts due to the dimple marking posts i read, information overload maybe. i will email you this afternoon or tomorrow to order the kit. i will photograph and document everything to try to claim the warranty if i find the wear on the tappets but i just don't have the luxury of waiting for that whole process to play out?
is there any way to ensure the kit is available in the 4 week time frame that i have?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 17, 2016, 12:27:48 AM
perfect, i was having a couple of doubts due to the dimple marking posts i read, information overload maybe. i will email you this afternoon or tomorrow to order the kit. i will photograph and document everything to try to claim the warranty if i find the wear on the tappets but i just don't have the luxury of waiting for that whole process to play out?
is there any way to ensure the kit is available in the 4 week time frame that i have?

I was just speaking to Peter Hill about your mate Justin's bike. Peter seems to think it's an '09 model? If that's the case it will need a 'C' kit not a 'D' kit. I've texted Peter some pics of the two rocker covers so he can confirm with Justin whether his is a 'C' or 'D' bike. If it's a 'C' that frees up my 'D' kit which is essentially an 'A' kit with head gaskets which you won't need. I can fling an 'A' kit together for you and have it on its way to Karathur by the weekend if neccessary. You'll need sump gasket and a filter too. I have them to hand as well.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: katanaman on May 17, 2016, 12:47:42 AM
Bloody great news,  I am good for a filter as I have that already for an oil change scheduled before I  leave Karratha but a sump gasket will be much appreciated.

I will call tomorrow to arrange the finer details.  after I have done the job should I be loading up a new improved map to go with the new cams?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 17, 2016, 12:53:50 AM
Yup, if you're running one of Mark's maps there is a roller version. This is a twin Lambda big tank model yes? With ABS I assume? John, (Xltra here I believe?) also has a very good 2L map that if you ask nicely he'll probably share with you.

I'm going to be on a plane flying back east tomorrow. Don't get back home until after 6.00PM so it might be better to email me or wait until Thursday to nut out the details. I'll have to bill you for the kit but if the claim is approved I'll reimburse you the full amount.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: katanaman on May 17, 2016, 12:59:41 AM
sweet as, cant ask for more than that, thanks heaps for your assistance once again. and yes big tank, ABS and twin Lambda. I have one of Xltra maps at the moment, is the map your talking about specific to post rollerisation?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 17, 2016, 01:07:17 AM
You'll have to ask John. If it's a lambda off map it is very relevant as there are significant differences in the camming between the flat and roller cams. With lambda on, when it's running closed loop, it will try and trim around the differences. If the lambda is off it can't.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Xlratr on May 17, 2016, 01:39:18 PM
sweet as, cant ask for more than that, thanks heaps for your assistance once again. and yes big tank, ABS and twin Lambda. I have one of Xltra maps at the moment, is the map your talking about specific to post rollerisation?

The 33s map is the latest one. It's for a 2Lambda Roller. If you want to use it just pm me your email.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: katanaman on May 17, 2016, 07:29:23 PM
Thanks, PM sent. BTW i am running a MIVV pipe without DB killer. would the map your talking about be appropriate or will i require a different map?
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on May 17, 2016, 07:56:44 PM
Any 8V will run much better with the dBk installed.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Xlratr on May 18, 2016, 01:10:04 AM
Thanks, PM sent. BTW i am running a MIVV pipe without DB killer. would the map your talking about be appropriate or will i require a different map?

Got it. I'll mail you the map a little later. Got to go to work.
I only experimented briefly with no db killer. I found running without to be too loud for me so I never tried to adapt the map for that. My brief impression was that it didn't run any better, just slightly leaner on the AFR readout. But as I say, I didn't do any exhaustive (! :-) testing.
My compromise solution was to make my own db killer by welding the appropriate size ring around a shorter piece of stainless tube. It's still quite enough in town but has a nice sound under acceleration. And no negative effect on performance or AFR.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: steffen on June 14, 2016, 07:48:34 AM
My 2010 Griso with 20.000 km on the clock was due for service. I asked my mec to tear of the cams for inspection, although he thought it was a waste of time and money, because my valves was on spec and sounding fine.
This is what I saw

(http://thumb.ibb.co/gqmnMF/tappets.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gqmnMF)


Now photos are send to the factory, hopefully they will accept the claim, but soon I'll have the rollers on.

I'd like to thank those of you, that insisted, that the flat tappets was doomed, Pete, Molly, Pauldaytona, Beetle to name a few...  :thumb: :thumb:

Just wanna add, that Moto Guzzi accepted my claim and paid for parts. Now I'm back rollerized and rolling.

My mec told me, that usually the danish importer had turned down claims for the wear, my tappets showed. But as I could send my mec pictures of other bikes with the same wear as mine, that had tappets replaced on the factorys account, there was no problem for my bike.
Thanks again.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on June 14, 2016, 07:52:10 AM
The importer doesn't make the call. The factory does. If anyone is being told by an importer their claim is being knocked back without refference to the factory......well.. ....arse!
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: steffen on June 14, 2016, 08:22:24 AM
Now I know what I'll have my mec say to the importer  :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: River Rat on June 19, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
I'm a newbie to this forum, looking at purchasing a 2011-12 Stelvio 8V NTX, from what I have read on here and other forums the main issue of concern is the subject of this thread.  It seems that the info put out by Piaggio in regard to those motors supposedly with rollers (Stelvio AC : After AC12596 03/12/2012) is at best hit and miss.  Does anyone have any more sure way of telling for the 2012 bikes other than removal of a rocker cover?
I love the passion you guys have for these machines :thumb:
Cheers, John

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on June 19, 2016, 01:05:20 AM
Nope, but pulling a rocker cover is a five minute job on a Stelvio, just don't  tug away at the plug caps, lever them up from underneath through the air tunnel above the exhaust manifold with a long screwdriver.

pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: River Rat on June 20, 2016, 06:12:01 AM
Thanks Pete
So once the lid is off what's the easiest way to tell if it has rollers?  It seems from the photos of your dismantle job that there's no way to look at the cam without removing the cam box, or am I missing something?  :blank:
I am familiar with valve adjustments on 2V Ducatis but this arrangement seems so much more complicated, albeit easier to adjust clearances!!, usually a weekend job on those (for me at least)
Thanks, John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on June 20, 2016, 06:20:42 AM
There are numerous threads where pictures have been posted showing how to identify if the bike has flats or rollers. Next time at my PC I'll post them up, again.....

As for inspecting the cams and tappets? Yes, it takes half an hour to get a cambox out if you stop for a beer and pick your nose for a while. Complexity doesn't come into it although familiarity might. No you can't see the cams or tappets without taking the cambox off the head. It's not a big job. video is on the Ghetto.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: beetle on June 20, 2016, 06:55:37 AM
Allow me:

(http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/91/78/64/image18.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/view/18917864/300)
(http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/18/91/78/64/image19.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/view/18917864/301)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: smdl on June 20, 2016, 07:02:25 AM
Here's another good shot of roller tappets:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/duOyTv/Rollers_Med.jpg) (http://ibb.co/duOyTv)


These are factory rollers on my 2012 Stelvio, engine number 12998.

Cheers,
Shaun
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: River Rat on June 20, 2016, 06:08:11 PM
thanks guys
Sorry Pete, I'm not too good with the phone, shoulda been less of a slackarse and fired up the PC last night I guess  :violent1:!!!   
great pics Shaun  :thumb:, good to see them side by side
cheers, John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on June 20, 2016, 08:30:56 PM
Thanks Mark.

vid of cambox removal here.

http://www.grisoghetto.com/t1987-roper-tech-tappet-inspection-on-flattie-8v

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 24, 2016, 01:28:13 PM
Hello all,

just about to rollerise my 2008 Stelvio after a successful warranty claim.

Does anyone have any comment on the idea of not fitting the inlet valve spring shims please?

It seems like alot of extra work just to fit the four very thin shims and wondered if its a stage that can be ignored without any damage ensuing to the engine in future use?

Thank you in advance for your valued input.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 24, 2016, 02:54:13 PM
Do you not think that perhaps they were put in there for a reason?

For crying out loud if you're going to do the bloody job at least do it properly!

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 24, 2016, 03:36:08 PM
Alright, calm down, was merely asking a question.....jesus. :shocked:

I just dont understand what such a thin shim is likely to achieve, but if it offends you to answer then please dont  :undecided:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Demar on November 24, 2016, 03:41:31 PM
Not sure how thick the shims are but they might be there for wear protection and not height adjustment. Maybe they are there to keep the hard spring from digging into the softer aluminum (assuming the springs would be resting on aluminum).
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 24, 2016, 03:48:37 PM
not fitted from new, just in the roller conversion so dont think its a wear thing, but dont really know  :sad:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 24, 2016, 04:36:25 PM

My guess is that the slightly heavier rollers are a little more likely to float at higher revs. The shim may keep them from floating as badly.
So you can limit your RPM to under 6k, and not worry. But that would be hard to do. :evil:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 24, 2016, 05:18:51 PM
My guess is that the slightly heavier rollers are a little more likely to float at higher revs. The shim may keep them from floating as badly.
So you can limit your RPM to under 6k, and not worry. But that would be hard to do. :evil:

This. The fact that they are only fitted on the inlets would make one believe that the extra mass of the roller tappet alone wasn't sufficient to cause a problem but the extra mass of the larger inlet valves might make the situation marginal.

Given the fact that spring surge and the flat tappets actually leaving the face of the cam at certain points and engine speeds being a likely contributing factor to the flat tappet fiasco and the roller system suffering no such issues it would seem foolish to try and second guess the engineers who produced a bullet proof fix for the original, poorly engineered, problem.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pauldaytona on November 25, 2016, 12:51:52 AM
All newer engines had them fitted. With the same on the outlets. So there they  are less usefull. Else they had then fitted at the rollerset too.
 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn mobiel

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 25, 2016, 02:42:05 AM
All newer engines had them fitted. With the same on the outlets. So there they  are less usefull. Else they had then fitted at the rollerset too.
 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn mobiel

Maybe the engineers who did bullet proof fix know best, time will tell. Shame if"fixing" kits missed out on two shims.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 03:10:23 AM
It seems that we will ever know for sure.

I will go the extra mile and stick them in, its just such a bloody hassle getting all the sodding tank and plastics off  :rolleyes:

Although after having the engine out 3 times now to sort the real main seal out, im pretty good at it, dont stop it being a pain though  :sad:

Ok, out into the cold I go, let the stripping commence.......the bike that is, not me  :grin:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 03:20:55 AM
Maybe the engineers who did bullet proof fix know best, time will tell. Shame if"fixing" kits missed out.

How much time do you want Martin?

Five years minimum since the flat tappet format was abandoned and the original, (In my opinion.) roller system was adopted there have been ZERO documented failures.

Keep on hating on the fact the world has left you behind. I wish you well in your misery.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 03:33:59 AM
Jesus Pete, chill out, what is wrong with you........ :undecided:

This is why I don't do clubs and rarely do forums, people need to lighten up a bit  :shocked:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on November 25, 2016, 03:51:17 AM
Jesus Pete, chill out, what is wrong with you........ :undecided:

This is why I don't do clubs and rarely do forums, people need to lighten up a bit  :shocked:

I edited my post for clarity, don't think Pete read post prior to mine. Paul said exhaust springs shimmed too on production engines. Maybe worth doing that too, if engineers did get it right ?

No dog in any fight, Pete's having a bad day, forgive him.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 09:37:46 AM
Well......that wasn't too bad at all, 4 hours from taking the first spanner out of the tool box, to putting the last one back in.....good times  :grin:

Didnt even need to take the heads off as my valve spring compressor works directly on the spring, was a bit of a faff, but easier than taking the heads right off.
Of course, I haven't done a compression check yet, so I don't know if the head gaskets have sealed again, so I may still have to strip it right down if they haven't, but fingers crossed, all will be well.

Now to drop the sump and check the big end bearings But as at least 60% of the DLC had gone off all tappets, not to mention the 37k miles, i'm expecting there to be a good bit of wear, so I will be changing them out anyways, but the dealer tells me there are 2 different types so I need to find out the 'colour' of my crank  :undecided:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 25, 2016, 09:45:38 AM
Quote
Now to drop the sump and check the big end bearings But as at least 60% of the DLC had gone off all tappets, not to mention the 37k miles, i'm expecting there to be a good bit of wear, so I will be changing them out anyways, but the dealer tells me there are 2 different types so I need to find out the 'colour' of my crank  :undecided:


My bearing shells were 'pitted'. No real wear, and they even measured correctly. But there was a slight knocking at idle with hot oil.
And I never did find any paint marks on the crank. Gave me an excuse to buy a larger micrometer.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 10:15:38 AM
Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

How did you prevent the valves from dropping into the bore if you left the head on?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Kev m on November 25, 2016, 10:21:18 AM
Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

How did you prevent the valves from dropping into the bore if you left the head on?

Pete

Maybe he pressurized the cylinder.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 25, 2016, 10:32:23 AM
Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

The shells also have part numbers stamped in them, but they aren't translatable to Guzzi numbers as far as I know.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 25, 2016, 10:37:31 AM
Maybe he pressurized the cylinder.

I was going to try that, or a rope in the cylinder, but I needed to make a custom spring compressor, so I gave up on that shortcut..
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 10:46:26 AM
Maybe he pressurized the cylinder.

Once you have the rocker gear/cambox off the only thing left to hold the head on are the two long bolts that clamp the back of the camchain tunnel and these should be loosened to prevent the risk of warpage when the tension is taken off the main studs. You can't pressurise the cylinder with air or do the rope trick because the head would just lift. This is why I'm fascinated as I can't work out how it could be done, at least not in a way that wouldn't be more time consuming and difficult than simply taking the head off?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Kev m on November 25, 2016, 11:46:51 AM
Once you have the rocker gear/cambox off the only thing left to hold the head on are the two long bolts that clamp the back of the camchain tunnel and these should be loosened to prevent the risk of warpage when the tension is taken off the main studs. You can't pressurise the cylinder with air or do the rope trick because the head would just lift. This is why I'm fascinated as I can't work out how it could be done, at least not in a way that wouldn't be more time consuming and difficult than simply taking the head off?

Pete

Ahhh, gotcha.... then maybe it was elves...  :boozing:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Muzz on November 25, 2016, 12:22:51 PM
I had purchased one of those spring compressors when I ran an automotive class as a teacher, I believe KD made them. Very ingenious. If we could not use compressed air we would put the piston at TDC and use a cunningly shaped bit of alloy to reach in the plug hole and push the edge of the valve up. We usually found some way as that particular room did not have compressed air.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 12:37:17 PM
Yes, i had the pistons at TDC and the valves pretty much stayed there, if they fell they only went about quarter inch so i gently pulled them back up to put the collects back in (they are tricky little buggers ain't they).
It was taking all the tank and plastics off that I considered was a particular pain in the arse which I managed to avoid.

Had a look at my shells and they are showing typical 37k mile wear so i'm quite happy with that.
My dealer is having trouble matching them up though, as has been said, the part number on the back of the shell didn't help him and the colouring that I found didn't help either. Not sure where to go with that really  :undecided:

I think I am going to put it all back together and run it for 1k miles or so while I sort out the right bearings, then strip it out again to replace them.
Wont be a bad thing to have another change of oil to make sure as much DLC is out of the system as possible.

Will give the oil cooling system a clean out tomorrow, then put it all back together and see if it runs  :grin:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 12:46:48 PM
Paint mark is on the crank web. If you look at the old shells there may be a lick of paint on the side of them as well which makes them identifiable.

Pete

I have one dab of black paint on one web and two dabs of peppermint green paint on the other, white and blue on the side of the cap / rod join.
The dealer cant match any of that so I am going to have to look into it a bit more i guess
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Kiwi Dave on November 25, 2016, 01:16:53 PM
I had purchased one of those spring compressors when I ran an automotive class as a teacher, I believe KD made them. Very ingenious. If we could not use compressed air we would put the piston at TDC and use a cunningly shaped bit of alloy to reach in the plug hole and push the edge of the valve up. We usually found some way as that particular room did not have compressed air.

Moto Guzzi supplied one with their kit to change the cam and valve springs on the hydro motors.  Worked a treat.  However, I think the instructions were to use BDC, not TDC (otherwise the piston would simply move, I'm surmising).
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 02:29:41 PM
Nah, it has to be TDC, you just have to be very precise or lock the crank. At eithe BDC in the cycle one or other of the valves will be open.

I'll try and grab some pics of crank and rods for you.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 03:11:50 PM

It was taking all the tank and plastics off that I considered was a particular pain in the arse which I managed to avoid.


Just re-read this. If you didn't take the tank off how did you manage to get th the tensioner plug on the right hand head? I'm assuming this is a small tank Stelvio?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 03:54:49 PM
Yes it is a small tank version, i just slipped the sprocket off the cam shafts and back on again without touching the tensioners.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 04:06:26 PM
But as soon as the sprockets are off the camshaft the plungers will extend and there won't be enough slack in the chain to get them back on again. If the chains are absolutely knackered it might be possible but I can't understand how you did it otherwise? As the plungers extend they'll fill with oil and then hydraulically lock. Unless you've collapsed the left one or removed the cap over the right one I can't see a way to easily depress them once the sprockets are off the cams. I'm glad you managed it somehow but I would strongly advise others not to follow your example.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 25, 2016, 05:12:48 PM
yeah i did it that way when i first stripped out the left side to take pictures of the wear for the warranty claim.
did it before i read that your supposed to drain down the plunger.

Do they not charge off the oil pump? So wouldnt extend until the engine was running?

I gently levered the sprocket off with a screw driver and then partially screwed the bolt back in to centre the sprocket going back on and again gently levered it back on with the a screw driver. Wasnt really hard, but didn't just slip on without a bit of work.

Bear in mind, I still haven't ran it up yet, things could go horribly wrong when I do, will let you know  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 25, 2016, 06:09:12 PM
They don't 'charge' as you say directly off the oil pump. The way it works is that the tensioning plungers are a sort of tube within a tube, like a telescope if you like. At one end there is a hole and inside the assembly there is a ball that seats on the hole and a spring behind it to keep the ball seated.

This sits in the wall of the cylinder with the valve end sitting in a reservoir. On the left hand side this is in the cylinder casting itself and on the right hand side it is on the valley side of the casting and covered by a plug.

The way they tension is that when the engine is started, if they have bled down while sitting, (Some are worse than others, I have no idea why?) when the engine starts the chains flap about causing the tensioner blade to oscillate on its pivot and this in turn causes the tensioner plunger to telescope in and out rapidly.

Every time it extends it will draw oil into the inside of the tensioner from the reservoir but when the oscillating tensioner blade tries to push it back the ball seats inside the tensioner plunger so the oil can't escape back out. After a few cycles the plunger 'fills up', the slack is taken out of the chain and the rattling stops!

The problem that will occur when you pull the sprockets off without physically bleeding down the left tensioner and removing the cap over the right one is that when the tension is taken off the chain the spring inside the plunger will extend the 'Telescope' and residual oil from the reservoir will fill the plunger. This in turn pushes the blade out but because the plunger is full of oil it means that there will be insufficient slack in the chain for the sprocket to be slipped back onto the end of the camshaft. With the left hand side it will be particularly difficult to then bleed that plunger down again as the chain will be in the way and there will be great difficulty in finding something to lever against. You also risk damaging the tensioner blade and replacing that is an engine out job!

If you got yours back on again OK then you're probably golden but it really isn't the way I'd recommend going about it. Turn your engine over by hand a view times and double check the cam timing but I reckon you've probably nailed it. It's a bit like playing Russian Roulette with several chambers loaded though.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 26, 2016, 02:45:14 AM
Ah right I understand.

I always have been unorthodoxed in my approach to things, lets hope i am lucky this time.
All seems fine, but the start up will confirm i guess.......
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Phang on November 26, 2016, 02:52:28 AM
regarding the use of the new valve springs (#B013517) instead of the old spring+shim, is there any reason NOT to use it on the exhaust valves?

I ask because I have extra new valve springs B013517.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 26, 2016, 03:18:52 AM
No reason I can think of. The final 1200 bikes all have the same springs on all valves I think. Same as Cali 14 I'll bet.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Phang on November 26, 2016, 03:40:52 AM
thanks Pete, that's reassuring.

I have checked the parts diagram of late 1200 engines, all four valves using the same B013517 spring but at the same time the cylinder head has a different part number too. So I thought I better ask before I replace all the valve springs with the B013517 springs.

I am quite amazed that Scottv8 can put the camshaft sprocket back without releasing the tension on the chain. It was a tight fit even with slack in the chain, lots of swearing when me and my mate did it a few months ago

Phang
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Wayne Orwig on November 26, 2016, 08:47:17 AM
I have checked the parts diagram of late 1200 engines, all four valves using the same B013517 spring but at the same time the cylinder head has a different part number too.

That would make me nervous, putting the new springs into and old revision head.
I think I would measure them, then decide.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Phang on November 26, 2016, 09:41:45 AM
That would make me nervous, putting the new springs into and old revision head.
I think I would measure them, then decide.

I will measure and compare the two springs when I get my hands dirty. I did compare the two springs with naked eye few months ago when I helped out a mate to rollerised his bike, can't tell there is a visible difference.

I think the difference in part numbers could be due to the fact that the later rollered cylinder head came with valves installed instead of bare cylinder head in early parts catalogue.

(http://i63.tinypic.com/hw00uf.png)

(http://i65.tinypic.com/2s9dumt.png)

Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Scottv8 on November 26, 2016, 01:38:42 PM
Set of rollers on the bay if anyone is interested  :grin:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/camshaft-MOTO-GUZZI-STELVIO-1200-4V-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-/282247499002?hash=item41b7430cfa:g:Y1sAAOSwHMJYIGYx (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/camshaft-MOTO-GUZZI-STELVIO-1200-4V-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-/282247499002?hash=item41b7430cfa:g:Y1sAAOSwHMJYIGYx)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 26, 2016, 02:17:55 PM
Set of rollers on the bay if anyone is interested  :grin:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/camshaft-MOTO-GUZZI-STELVIO-1200-4V-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-/282247499002?hash=item41b7430cfa:g:Y1sAAOSwHMJYIGYx (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/camshaft-MOTO-GUZZI-STELVIO-1200-4V-2008-2009-2010-2011-2012-2013-2014-2015-2016-/282247499002?hash=item41b7430cfa:g:Y1sAAOSwHMJYIGYx)

'B' or 'C' kit bike only. While they will fit any 1200 head if you own a later model with the 'Floating' rocker covers you'll need new, expensive, rocker covers and long plug tubes as well. It would also do early 1200 Sport but with them and 'C' kit bikes you'll also need shims and seals etc.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on December 01, 2016, 07:21:17 PM
Sorry, just getting back to this. I've been as busy as a dog with three dicks so apologies for the delay.

Crank is marked so.

(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5705/30467827054_3240c38048_b.jpg)

This is obviously a 'Black' crank.

Bearing shells?

Red mark on side of shell.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5343/31253237776_66d013e7d3_b.jpg)

I this has washed off in service you can check the bearing identifying # which is NOT the Guzzi part # on the back of the shell. In the car of the red bearing this is 0315A and corresponds to Guzzi part# 875243.

Blue mark on side of shell.

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5554/31253239876_026b31de8a_b.jpg)

Bearing identifier-blue bearing is 0215A which corresponds to Guzzi part #875244

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Rat12 on July 14, 2018, 04:00:23 AM
I'm just about to "rollerise" my Stelvio but I'd appreciate some advice before I start. I've taken off the tank to get better access to the chain tensioner plug(s).

The RHS plug is 36mm (looks enormous)? 

I assume the answer to my next question is no but I'll ask anyway. Instead of de-pressurising the LHS chain tensioner with a screwdriver can one use the same technique as the RHS by removing the LHS plug? 


(https://thumb.ibb.co/i53A6o/Chain_tensioner.jpg) (https://ibb.co/i53A6o)
 

John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on July 14, 2018, 06:07:56 AM
No, you can't. The tensioner for the left hand chain sits on the outside of the barrel. The only reason there is a plug on that side at all is because they have to machine the bore for the tensioner in the barrel.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Rat12 on July 14, 2018, 06:39:13 AM
Pete, many thanks for the reply.

John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Rat12 on August 21, 2018, 12:15:09 PM
Pete,

Firstly best wishes for Michael and I hope he makes a good recovery.

I'd like to say thank you for your help and advice regarding Guzzis in general but particularly the rollerisation. I bought the kit and following your instructions and video got the parts out and the new ones in.  And it works!  Compressing the cam chain tensioner on the LHS was easier than I was expecting. I used a bloody long screwdriver but didn't have to use undue force to my surprise.

Although I drive slowly, used the recommended oils, and low mileage (7200 km) two of the old cam followers showed signs of wear (fortunately just loss of the coating but no metal) removing any doubts I had about doing the job. I had the engine oil analysed before hand but that didn't show any real issues. 

John
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on August 21, 2018, 12:52:15 PM
 :thumb:

Once rollerised the motors are pretty much bulletproof. If people choose to believe 'It won't happen to them because, (Insert spurious reasonhere.)' they're going to be disappointed.

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 19, 2018, 11:09:05 PM
Just to revive this my daughter and her hi-res camera are here at the moment. I also have a 'C' kit bike on the bench.

Is there any interest in me doing a utube vid to compliment my earlier one on removing the cambox to illustrate the valve shimming stuff or is everyone happy with the write up?

Pete
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: oldbike54 on November 19, 2018, 11:22:19 PM
Just to revive this my daughter and her hi-res camera are here at the moment. I also have a 'C' kit bike on the bench.

Is there any interest in me doing a utube vid to compliment my earlier one on removing the cambox to illustrate the valve shimming stuff or is everyone happy with the write up?

Pete


 Videos are always helpful for some of us mechanically challenged types Pete . I might never own one of these engines , but might be asked to help with one . Of course I also understand how much work making a video might be . Thanks

 Dusty
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: smdl on November 19, 2018, 11:24:01 PM
Just to revive this my daughter and her hi-res camera are here at the moment. I also have a 'C' kit bike on the bench.

Is there any interest in me doing a utube vid to compliment my earlier one on removing the cambox to illustrate the valve shimming stuff or is everyone happy with the write up?

Pete

Hi, Pete.

Yes, please!

Thanks for doing this.

Shaun
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Huzo on November 19, 2018, 11:51:11 PM
Just to revive this my daughter and her hi-res camera are here at the moment. I also have a 'C' kit bike on the bench.

Is there any interest in me doing a utube vid to compliment my earlier one on removing the cambox to illustrate the valve shimming stuff or is everyone happy with the write up?

Pete
Video please.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a video must be worth a thousand pictures..
Of course NOTHING beats a "live show", that'd be worth a thousand video's.
(Being close to Fyshwick you'da known that..!)
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: stubbie on November 20, 2018, 12:15:24 AM
At 25 frames per second a 5 minute video = 7500 pictures to be exact. :thumb:
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Huzo on November 20, 2018, 12:31:24 AM
At 25 frames per second a 5 minute video = 7500 pictures to be exact. :thumb:
gracious..!
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: pete roper on November 20, 2018, 10:22:45 PM
Sorry, Erika had to go do other stuff so it didn't happen.
Title: Re: Rollerisation of the 8V.
Post by: Bulldog9 on November 21, 2018, 01:17:16 PM
I won't need to do this as my Norge is a 2014, and already rollerized from the factory, but the technical details and understanding of how the 8-valve motor is constructed and is very helpful. Thanks for this Pete! This is the thing I love about forums... Shared knowledge information and skill is invaluable.